Supervillain Showdown #5 - Firewing vs. General Winter!

[guardiansorder]

Superhero Showdown - THE VILLAINS - Round 5!
Champions vs. Silver Age Sentinels

Superhero RPG fans across the world determine the winners of epic battles between Champions and Silver Age Sentinels characters.

Showdown #4 is complete -- Mister Matthews destroys Teleios!

Showdown #5 has just started -- an elemental between
the searing Firewing and the frosty General Winter!

Visit the Superhero Showdown website, read the battle synopsis, and vote for your favourite. Then pop over to the message boards and have yoursay.

Superhero Showdown:_ http://www.champions-vs-sas.com
Message Boards:_ http://pub84.ezboard.com/bsuperheroshowdown66104

Supervillain Showdown #5 voting ends 12 June 2003.

[Monolith]

I have not voted yet, but I just cannot envision Firewing saying "ULP!" :)

[Hermit]

Indeed, the Son of Malva does not 'Ulp!'
Impudent Earth Writers...


Good stories though, on both sides.

[Lord Liaden]

I commented on the Showdown boards on some of the similarities and contrasts between these two, but I have to add that they look great together side by side - both look powerful and dangerous, but otherwise they couldn't be more different.

And I do think that suddenly being confronted by a cross between Odin and Godzilla would evoke at least one "Ulp!" out of anyone. ;)

[Rage]

GO FIREWING!!!
I stole General Winters Pic to use as a dwarf for a future campaign.

[Pattern Ghost]

Ah, better! I liked the ending on Winter's piece. Well done on both parts, pretty tough call. Winter was a bit more creative, though, so I might be inclined to call it for him.

[Enforcer84]

That was much better than the last one we were offered.

[Scott Destroyer]

Hello,

So, there's a General Winter in the SAS Universe, too, eh? The one in Champions Universe was a WW2-era Russian superhuman, first appearing in 1942, but that's about all they say about him.

Perhaps the duel should have been between the two of them...winner keeps the name, loser goes to Disputed Copyright Limbo... ;)

[Lord Liaden]

The CU "General Winter" is most likely based on the Russian Golden Age hero "General Mayhem," originally from the 3E Red Doom organization book and later updated to 4E in Classic Organizations. General Mayhem in fact had powers very like the SAS General Winter: ice and cold control, and growth (although not quite so vast.)

Muddying the waters still further, an old Superworld adventure supplement from Chaosium, Trouble for HAVOC, with character stats for HERO and V&V, also included a prominent NPC Russian hero with cold powers, named (wait for it) General Winter. That character predates Hero's General Mayhem.

All of this might lead one to suspect that (A) everything old is new again, and (B) superhero RPGs are an incestuous business. ;)

[Morningstar]

General Winter looks a lot like Odin of Marvel. Still I have to go for the universe I play in and the villian I have fought. :)

[lemming]

If memory serves me correctly, you'll find a General Winter in Gurps as well. And I'll bet in several other RPGs as well. It's a very common name since it's what was called in WWII.

[death tribble]

I have been and voted.

Firewing. I have a soft spot for the guy. He's been around since the beginning

[Tech]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
The CU "General Winter" is most likely based on the Russian Golden Age hero "General Mayhem," originally from the 3E Red Doom organization book and later updated to 4E in Classic Organizations. General Mayhem in fact had powers very like the SAS General Winter: ice and cold control, and growth (although not quite so vast.)


The General Winter spoken about was part of a module I still have (well, part of it). I can probably ask another player the exact name. In it were the villains Armageddon, Death Grip, Sneak Thief and a few others on the bad guy's side, some American heroes (forgot who), and some Russian heroes: General Winter, Sympath and a couple others. This module predates the Red Doom organization book and so is not based on General Mayhem (the Red Doom book also in my possession.) This General Winter was powerful back then and if I updated him to 5e rules, I'd be afraid to unleash him.

[Lord Liaden]

Exactly so, Tech. That was the adventure module I mentioned in my earlier post, Trouble for HAVOC for Chaosium's Superworld game.


Originally posted by lemming
If memory serves me correctly, you'll find a General Winter in Gurps as well. And I'll bet in several other RPGs as well. It's a very common name since it's what was called in WWII.

You intrigue me, lemming, but your post was a bit unclear; could you specify exactly what was called "General Winter" during WW II?

[Blue]

I'm liking GW a bit better. Maybe it's the growth thing. He just seems much more imposing.

...Although firewing has kicked my ass...

That's a head scratcher.

[WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
You intrigue me, lemming, but your post was a bit unclear; could you specify exactly what was called "General Winter" during WW II?

'General Winter': They greatest defender of Russia; the icy cold of the Russian winter. Devastatingly effective against invaders.

[lemming]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme
'General Winter': They greatest defender of Russia; the icy cold of the Russian winter. Devastatingly effective against invaders.
That's the one. Especially since a lot of the German troops didn't have very good winter gear.

[Tim]

General Winter has defended Russia for centuries. It is what defeated Napoleon, and forced him to retreat from Mosow. WWII also appeared a new Russian Weather General: MUD!

TimS.

[Lord Liaden]

I noticed that as of this writing there is still no background for Firewing posted on the "Characters Compared" thread of the Showdown boards, so the SASers aren't getting the benefit of that info. I would put it up myself, but my copy of CKC is currently on loan to a friend :( , and I don't feel confident enough of the details of the new version to post it from memory.

Would some kind Herophile be gracious enough to write it up? :)

[Agent.0.Fortune]

Sad Sad Day.

Firewing has been one of my favorite Champions villians, but SAS offered a better story and developed a more interesting character in the telling.

I have to tip my hat to SAS this time.
A shame because Firewing has always been a great villian, just a little to too one dimensional for this conflict.

[Balok]

I liked both stories, and had a tough time deciding. Both stories captured their protagonists well, and both depicted good tactics.

Finally, I had to give the nod to Firewing, because I'm going to pick HERO when everything else is equal. Congratulations to both writers for depicting the characters and their encounter so well.

[Willpower]

I picked Firewing too. It was my first inclination to pick Firewing, but then I read both stories, and was surprised by the power of General Winter. I still think Firewing's story better depicted both characters together. General Winter's story did depict General Winter better, but in that story Frewing seemed more like a bumbling oaf, than the way I envision him, so I chose the Champions story. It was also more convincing than the other one. I did like the conclusion of the battle in the SAS story, though it didn't make sense. Firewing can survive in the vacuum of space as well as any other environment, and his fire would not be doused by any water, so submerging him in water, for any amount of time would do no good. General Winter would have had to have crushed him into unconsciousness, and the water he submerged him in would have done nothing.

[Lord Liaden]

Interesting points.

I didn't find Firewing to act bumbling at all in General Winter's story. On the contrary, I thought his tactic of overwhelming the General with waves of heat, melting his footing beneath him then knocking him off the cliff, was a very clever strategy, and firing at the giant's eyes to blind him was a sound (albeit vicious) tactical choice.

When Winter thrust Firewing under the water he put "all his power into freezing the sea." I took that to mean that GW was piling up all the ice he could around Firewing to counter the effects of his flame, until FW was finally exhausted and crushed in his grip.

That tactic, and the image it conjured in my mind, finally led me to come down for General Winter in this match, although it took me a long time to decide - this was the closest matchup since Nighthawk vs. Caliburn.

[Monolith]

I had to go with Firewing myself. I just did not like the way that Firewing was written in the SAS story. It seemed as though Firewing was written from an almost comedic angle; there was no sense of honor or combat savy in the story. My first comment in this thread was that Firewing does not say "ULP," and I still feel that to be true. Firewing has faced death hundreds, if not thousands of times in his gladitorial career. Getting hit by someone who could hurt would not have been that uncommon.

I have to ask myself this: Do I think that Firewing could be Gargantua? Ultimately General Winter is just Gargantua with 3 more levels of Growth and a very good ability to create snow/ice (I do not even seen where the Creation even allows General Winter to do damage with his created snow/ice. The power description just states he can create snow/ice there is no indication it can be used to damage someone with it in any fashion). Assuming damage, defense, and STUN are about equal Firewing has the advantage of range and flight, as well as versatility of attack. It seems like a fairly simple win for Firewing, to me.

[Hermit]

I'm going with Firewing. I agree though, this is the closest one since the Nighthawk/Caliburn fight. General Winter was well written, but over all, doesn't seem as interesting to me. Perhaps Winter is almost TOO Primal, he loses a human dimension (Which , since I'm comparing him to an alien IS kind of Ironic). Firewing, with all his foibles, just seems more fleshed out. Everything else is so balanced, it's frightening, though I think Ben treated Winter with a bit more respect than Jesse treated Firewing.

Still, excellent work on both sides.

[Lord Liaden]

Alright, game mechanics issues! :D

I was assuming that General Winter had some kind of ice-based damage power in addition to just creating masses of ice and snow, since he hurled that shower of ice shards at Firewing at the end of FW's story. I guess it could have been dramatic license; by the same token, IIRC Firewing doesn't have an Area of Effect attack that could have covered the whole cliff and also be intense enough to kill someone as tough as Winter. I don't have a problem with that kind of liberty when it's clearly within the concept of the character, though.

Gee, I wish we could have had an exchange like this on the Showdown board; it's been pretty quiet over there. :(

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden


Gee, I wish we could have had an exchange like this on the Showdown board; it's been pretty quiet over there. :(

Hey, at least more info on Firewing was finally given there ;)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Hermit
Hey, at least more info on Firewing was finally given there ;)

Say, Splendid One, by any chance was that you writing under the nom du plume of "Ariax Thone?" He has your flare for the dramatic. ;)

Very entertaining origin recounting - vividly captures Firewing's perspective and passion, without slanting the true details beyond recognition. :cool:

[Hermit]

As Luther Stickell might say, "There was never any proof that I was responsible for that rather... excellent piece of work."

;)

[Just A Guy Name]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Alright, game mechanics issues! :D

I was assuming that General Winter had some kind of ice-based damage power in addition to just creating masses of ice and snow, since he hurled that shower of ice shards at Firewing at the end of FW's story...

One of General Winter's powers is Telekinesis: (Ice/Snow).

[Ben Seeman]

Originally posted by Just A Guy Name
One of General Winter's powers is Telekinesis: (Ice/Snow).

Exactly.

As I was writing Firewing's story I needed something dramatic to end the fight besides Firewing just unloading with his AoE fireball. Since General Winter can a) create ice and snow and, b) TK ice and snow, it made sense to me that he could create ice from the water below (or even without the water at all, but icicles flying out of the water just seemed too cool to not write) and then hurl it at Firewing. His TK could surely splinter chunks of ice into any shape he wanted, including razor sharp shards.

Of all of the Showdowns that I have written, this one was the toughest, not because of lack of imagination or "cool things to write about", but because I only had 525 words to do it in. Give me unlimited words and that fight would STILL be going on. Good match up.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman


Of all of the Showdowns that I have written, this one was the toughest, not because of lack of imagination or "cool things to write about", but because I only had 525 words to do it in. Give me unlimited words and that fight would STILL be going on. Good match up.

Well, there's been good writing on both sides (Out of your writings Ben, I think I like this one , and Kinetik's story best), but yeah, that word # limitation sometimes hurts the contests, especially for the brainy fellows who would, in game play, get rather elaborate :)

At least Firewing, bless his Malvan heart, gets into fights right away :)

[Just A Guy Name]

Coolness:cool: Thanks for the insider, Ben!

[lemming]

Hey, Ben. I read, then vote, then see who wrote it. I voted fo9r Firewinf this time. nice job.