Presence attacks never work?

[The Souljourner]

Ok, so to make a presence attack, you roll 1d6 per 5 presence and if you equal or beat the target's Presence or EGO, you impress them. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but that's the gist.

Here's what I don't get. 20 presence is 4d6 which is an average of 14. To roll 20 on 4d6 is really really unlikely. So most of the time you can't even impress yourself? In fact, most of the time you'll only be able to impress someone 2/3 your presence (well, 7/10, but close enough). Seems like presence attacks should be like 1d6 for every 3 or 4 presence, to make it a bit more likely that you can impress someone not so far under you.

Thoughts?

-Nate

[SteelDoom]

It's pretty easy to get a bonus to the roll. Sure, if you talk calmly to yourself you are not going to be impressed. However if you yell and have an appropriate speach and maybe brandish a weapon... then you get enough to go for brown trowsers time. Especially when you realise you are yelling into a mirror and are likely insane! ;)

[Mike W]

Ok, so to make a presence attack, you roll 1d6 per 5 presence and if you equal or beat the target's Presence or EGO, you impress them. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but that's the gist.

Here's what I don't get. 20 presence is 4d6 which is an average of 14. To roll 20 on 4d6 is really really unlikely. So most of the time you can't even impress yourself? In fact, most of the time you'll only be able to impress someone 2/3 your presence (well, 7/10, but close enough). Seems like presence attacks should be like 1d6 for every 3 or 4 presence, to make it a bit more likely that you can impress someone not so far under you.

Thoughts?

-Nate

There are a boatload of modifiers and it is important that you remember them when you have someone trying a presence attack. Go through the list and you'll find that Batman gets a HUGE bonus when he does his standard "dive out of the shadows" move to punk some bad guys.

+1D6 surprise
+1D6 for appropriate setting
+1D6 for exhibiting a power(gliding, most bad guys don't do three story free falls)

Plus Batman gets a bonus for his Reputation(that's at least 2D6, maybe 3). So all of a sudden a 20 PRE Batman(not the Batgod of JLA, but the Batman from Detective) has about 9D6 of presence to roll against a punk with maybe 13 PRE. He's got EGO +10 in the bag and has a good chance at +20. Of course, there are also the Psych Lims of the target to consider. And we still haven't given Batman any soliliquy bonus yet. And if he decks a guy as he descends, he gets a violent action bonus too. Add it all up, and that's how Bruce Wayne can have a 20 PRE but Batman can make common thugs wet themselves just by snarling at them.

[L. Marcus]

". . . I swear to God!"

"Swear to me!"

[Sketchpad]

The thing is, most of the time, at least in my games, punks and common criminals only have about a 15 PRE at most ... so, using an average roll of 4 on 4d6, a character may impress someone with only a 20 PRE. It's the mastermind villains that you gotta worry about ;)



Plus Batman gets a bonus for his Reputation(that's at least 2D6, maybe 3). So all of a sudden a 20 PRE Batman(not the Batgod of JLA, but the Batman from Detective) has about 9D6 of presence to roll against a punk with maybe 13 PRE. He's got EGO +10 in the bag and has a good chance at +20. Of course, there are also the Psych Lims of the target to consider. And we still haven't given Batman any soliliquy bonus yet. And if he decks a guy as he descends, he gets a violent action bonus too. Add it all up, and that's how Bruce Wayne can have a 20 PRE but Batman can make common thugs wet themselves just by snarling at them.

Agreed ... not to mention that I'd also by the costume with a PRE boost, as it allows him to have some anonymity and just damn scary ... especially when he comes out of nowhere (+2d6), slams into the guy (+2d6) and lifts him up by his foot without straining (+1d6) ... That's not even taking into account that the perp will more than likely recognize him (Rep 14-/+4d6) or what he might say to interrogate him ;)

[prestidigitator]

Hmm. Yeah, my common criminals usually have a Pre that is about average (8-12), but might have a Reputation Perk and/or Disadvantage.

[John Desmarais]

So most of the time you can't even impress yourself? In fact, most of the time you'll only be able to impress someone 2/3 your presence (well, 7/10, but close enough).

Why do feel that you should be able to impress some who is just as "impressive" as yourself? To me, at least, it makes perfect sense that in general you should have a higher PRE than someone in order to have a reasonable chance of impressing them.

[Killer Shrike]

Mike W has it right -- its all in the situational modifiers, which makes a lot of sense for this sort of resolution.

[David Johnston]

Ok, so to make a presence attack, you roll 1d6 per 5 presence and if you equal or beat the target's Presence or EGO, you impress them. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but that's the gist.

Here's what I don't get. 20 presence is 4d6 which is an average of 14. To roll 20 on 4d6 is really really unlikely. So most of the time you can't even impress yourself?

Frankly that's true to life. I'm not really impressed by myself.

[Erkenfresh]

Just don't argue with your GM about how "violent" your action is. He's likely to strangle you. Now, THAT'S scary.

[bigdamnhero]

Frankly that's true to life. I'm not really impressed by myself.
OTOH, I know plenty of people that ARE impressed by themselves, but can't impress anyone else.

Or have we wandered off-topic? :)

[Erkenfresh]

OTOH, I know plenty of people that ARE impressed by themselves, but can't impress anyone else.

Or have we wandered off-topic? :)

The lower your presence goes, the more likely you are to impress yourself. ;)

[Vondy]

I do presence attacks as opposed skill rolls with the results based on MoS. Its faster and I've found it has more varied results. I also allow skill levels with it.

[Dust Raven]

It's all about the modifiers.

Von D Man's option is a good one I've seen used by many GMs to make PRE Attacks more user friendly and generally effective, though I've never used it myself.

[Doc Tough]

Doc sez...

PRE Attacks are so genre, but the mechanics often get abused. I usuaully counsel my players to use them sparingly or else they become hack very quickly.

The problem I have more often than the Attack is the reaction from players. Some players do play out the attack well, but rarely will they let themselves embrace the effects of higher value attack results (ie FLEE).

Doc Tough

[Karmakaze]

Does anyone ever use PRE attacks for non-fear purposes? Consider, for example, the standard Pulp trope of the girl stoping traffic by pulling back her skirt. Is there an equivalent to "very violent action" as a modifer for a PRE attack that's not fear based?

[Erkenfresh]

Not really though situation and "agrees with existing behavior" sorts of things would play more there.

[Lord Liaden]

Does anyone ever use PRE attacks for non-fear purposes? Consider, for example, the standard Pulp trope of the girl stoping traffic by pulling back her skirt. Is there an equivalent to "very violent action" as a modifer for a PRE attack that's not fear based?

Well, I once saw an episode of the TV series Hercules: The Legendary Journeys that might be equivalent. Hercules is in the middle of a fight with a platoon of thugs when his sister, the goddess Aphrodite, appears to ask his help. Herc not really being in a position to leave at the moment, Aphrodite calls out, "Hey, boys!" and pops her top. The fight screeches to a jaw-dropping halt.

I would call that a "very" action of some kind. :rolleyes:

Responding to the more general question, I've had PCs use Presence Attacks on a few occasions to "rally the troops," inspiring them to regroup and fight on.

[Killer Shrike]

You can use PRE attacks for the full gamut of emotions. Fear is not the only option.

[Vanguard00]

Does anyone ever use PRE attacks for non-fear purposes? Consider, for example, the standard Pulp trope of the girl stoping traffic by pulling back her skirt. Is there an equivalent to "very violent action" as a modifer for a PRE attack that's not fear based?
PRE attacks are a hoot when used right. They shouldn't just be used for fear purposes.

- Impress the ladies before hitting 'em with a Seduction roll.
- Rally/inspire the troops with a good PRE attack prior to using Teamwork or Tactics.
- Get that citizen to call the ambulance NOW and then wait for them to arrive rather than stand around gawking.
- Hit the press with a little PRE attack before answering some questions and you'll likely get a better bite on the 5 o'clock news.
- Swagger and brag a bit with a PRE attack just before you sit down at the poker table and you might just pull off some 'heroic' bluffs.
- Use your own PRE to inspire someone else to greatness (when it's safe): "Come on, Johnny. I know you're tired but I bet you can do just two more pull-ups!"
- Use for no reaction whatsoever--just be impressive. "Remember, kids: Vanguard says no to drugs."

Used properly, PRE attacks can be a hoot.

[Manic Typist]

I would call that a "very" action of some kind. :rolleyes:


Display of a very superior power. 2d6, if not more.

[Dust Raven]

Well, I once saw an episode of the TV series Hercules: The Legendary Journeys that might be equivalent. Hercules is in the middle of a fight with a platoon of thugs when his sister, the goddess Aphrodite, appears to ask his help. Herc not really being in a position to leave at the moment, Aphrodite calls out, "Hey, boys!" and pops her top. The fight screeches to a jaw-dropping halt.

That's a COM Attack, not a PRE Attack. I've watched the show; Aphrodite didn't have much true charisma.

[Dust Raven]

Does anyone ever use PRE attacks for non-fear purposes? Consider, for example, the standard Pulp trope of the girl stoping traffic by pulling back her skirt. Is there an equivalent to "very violent action" as a modifer for a PRE attack that's not fear based?

I've used and seen other players use PRE Attacks to plenty of things not involving fear. One of my characters constantly used PRE Attacks get convince the innocent bystandards to take cover instead of standing there gawking (well, that's kinda like fear, but indirect) and impress the local police force into treating him like he was in charge. A player in a recent campaign I was running had a jedi type character who used PRE Attacks as his "jedi mind trick" to talk people into doing all sorts of things (mainly things that went above and beyond what Persuasion or Interrogation would allow, but not quite in the realm of Mind Control).

[Karmakaze]

Most of the listed situational modifiers are weighted to fear, though.

"exhibiting a power" or "violent action" really don't map to non-fear PRE so well.

What modifiers would you allow for, say inspiration, or "sex appeal" PRE attacks.

If you're bamboozling a crowd, is there a point where a PRE attack is a better mechanic than, say, a Persusaion skill roll?

[Vanguard00]

What modifiers would you allow for, say inspiration, or "sex appeal" PRE attacks.
If I remember correctly the GM awarded me something like +1 compliment to my Seduction roll for every level of the attack cuz I had just essentially pulled an Alpha Male move by doing something cool. It's not a hard-and-fast rule but the idea of getting people to pay attention to you is a good thing, in my opinion, and should be rewarded.


If you're bamboozling a crowd, is there a point where a PRE attack is a better mechanic than, say, a Persusaion skill roll?
Bamboozling a crowd? I'd let PRE be a complimentary skill roll for that, but I don't think it's appropriate to replace it. After all, if you're essentially trying to convince people of something they know is not true, it won't matter if you're really impressive while doing it. They still probably won't believe you.

PRE attacks doesn't necessarily get people to do anything they wouldn't do anyway, but it's an attention-getter. It's a way of putting your best foot forward, so to speak, and making people sit up and take notice. That little jolt of adrenalin you get when reading a good comic or watching your favorite show on TV or seeing an actor in a movie do something really cool...that's a PRE attack (sort of). Cops taking control of disaster situations, calming people down and getting them to safety...that's a PRE attack. A guy coming into the room all loud and obnoxious but obviouslying having a good time...that could be a PRE attack.

Anyway, just my thoughts on it. YMMV.

[Zeropoint]

In the manga series Oh! My Goddess!, the character Belldandy has a very high Presence (with a lot of it limited to "nice" uses) which she uses on a regular basis. It's one of her greatest abilities. She can get people to be friendly to each other when they otherwise wouldn't be, win people to her side, dispell suspicions, get favors, boost confidence, and ease sorrow with nothing more than a few kind words and a sweet smile.

She apparently bought her PRE with Transdimensional, too, because it can affect the reader as well as the characters in the book.:rolleyes:

[prestidigitator]

Does anyone ever use PRE attacks for non-fear purposes? Consider, for example, the standard Pulp trope of the girl stoping traffic by pulling back her skirt. Is there an equivalent to "very violent action" as a modifer for a PRE attack that's not fear based?
Absolutely! Any appropriate action can add a bonus to the Pre Attack when I'm GMing. I'm all for awarding creative and diverse roleplaying rather than only simple brutality. :)

[Killer Shrike]

That's a COM Attack, not a PRE Attack. I've watched the show; Aphrodite didn't have much true charisma.
COM can be used to get a bonus on PRE Attacks when appropriate.

[Killer Shrike]

Most of the listed situational modifiers are weighted to fear, though.

"exhibiting a power" or "violent action" really don't map to non-fear PRE so well.

What modifiers would you allow for, say inspiration, or "sex appeal" PRE attacks.

If you're bamboozling a crowd, is there a point where a PRE attack is a better mechanic than, say, a Persusaion skill roll?
You can use Interaction Skills to get bonuses to PRE attacks.


The main thing to think about is that PRE Attacks are effectively a watered down version of MIND CONTROL and represents the ability of people with strong personalities and a flair for controlling / taking advantage of a situation to compel other people to do what they want. Its good for situations where a single dramatic statement, a few well placed words, or sheer force of will can sway a situation or otherwise affect the outcome.

Its particularly good in COMBAT TIME where instantaneous effects are the norm. On the other hand the effect of PRE attacks is generally not long lasting, particularly vs equivalently important characters such as PCs and key NPCs. A you can move the mob but not budge the individual kind of thing.

One of the reasons it is often identified with FEAR effects is because Fear usually is sudden and short lasting under even normal conditions -- but its impact is felt immediately because it can cause people to put themselves at a significant combat disadvantage or to flee outright.

Most other forms of tampering with the emotional state or behavior of others needs to last longer to be truly effective. Again, things where a single action can make a big difference is where PRE Attacks come in handy. Rallying morale, impressing potential opponents sufficiently that they choose not to throw down, and other such places where a single decision point has a lot of gravitas.


Interaction Skills on the other hand are generally more subtle and / or prolonged, but also longer lasting. If you want an effect that takes a little longer to bring about but will have a long term effect, you use a Skill. Interaction Skills can also be used to enhance a PRE Attack, which is only logical, but aside from that they provide a facility to affect long term change.

So for instance if you work a trade using a PRE Attack, you might walk away with what you want but the other party is likely not going to be happy about it -- you bullied them into a trade they didnt want. If you use the Trading Skill on the other hand it will likely take longer to barter with them and work them into a deal, but in the end when you walk away the other party is much less likely to hold a grudge. And so on across other similar skill resolutions.

[Dust Raven]

Most of the listed situational modifiers are weighted to fear, though.

As it should be. As in real life, it's far easier to make someone fear you than respect you.

[Killer Shrike]

And fear is a tool of diminishing returns, which PRE Attacks model very well.

[Dust Raven]

And so is charisma, in a way. Get to know some charismatic fool and you'll soon start to wonder what it is what all these people see in him (or her).

Of course, if someone makes a really good PRE Attack (commanding respect or drawing on the target's logic or reason) to issue tactical commands, and the plan works, he might not need a PRE Attack to get people to listen to him next time. A character who bullies his allies into action probably must do so each and every time (well, unless he actually beats the crap out of one or two for disobediance, but that requires even more effort).

[bigdamnhero]

[PRE atks are] particularly good in COMBAT TIME where instantaneous effects are the norm.
<snip>
Interaction Skills on the other hand are generally more subtle and / or prolonged, but also longer lasting.
Hmm...I'd never thought about it that way: PRE Attacks are instant, interaction skill are constant. Nicely put.

[Mike W]

That's a COM Attack, not a PRE Attack. I've watched the show; Aphrodite didn't have much true charisma.

I'd call it a PRE attack with a bonus from her COM. She may not have had much in the way of personality skills, but she IS still divine after all.

[prestidigitator]

I'd call it a PRE attack with a bonus from her COM. She may not have had much in the way of personality skills, but she IS still divine after all.
Besides, Pre doesn't necessarily mean you are likable. It may mean you can make yourself likable if you really care to, but perhaps she got off on annoying people (and I image a high Pre could make you very good at doing that well too). :)

[Manic Typist]

The Goddess of Love gets off on annoying people?


How should I interpret this sentence?

[prestidigitator]

The Goddess of Love gets off on annoying people?
Hey. It makes sense to me! :D

But in any case we are talking about a television series, not anything that needs make sense.

[Manic Typist]

No, it makes sense, but it makes several KINDS of sense... hehe.

[prestidigitator]

No, it makes sense, but it makes several KINDS of sense... hehe.
Well, what can I say? I thrive on ambiguity. :D

[Schwarzwald]

Well, I once saw an episode of the TV series Hercules: The Legendary Journeys that might be equivalent. Hercules is in the middle of a fight with a platoon of thugs when his sister, the goddess Aphrodite, appears to ask his help. Herc not really being in a position to leave at the moment, Aphrodite calls out, "Hey, boys!" and pops her top. The fight screeches to a jaw-dropping halt.

I would call that a "very" action of some kind. :rolleyes:

Responding to the more general question, I've had PCs use Presence Attacks on a few occasions to "rally the troops," inspiring them to regroup and fight on.

I was just asking, on a new thread, if presence attacks could handle things like seduction, as in the classic case of the sucubus trying to seduce the poor young hero into a li'l kiss.....

Even as a newbie, I'd assume that the whole presence vs. ego thing would cover things like seduction as well. Bonuses to seduction type presence attacks could be looks, pheremone perfume, how long sine the targets has, uh, you know, and so on.


As to batman, don't forget that when he makes a 'presence attack' it's in a scary costume, at night, against saome punk who's probably scared of regular cops, let along a 6'6" bat that talks like clint eastwood.

[Schwarzwald]

That's a COM Attack, not a PRE Attack. I've watched the show; Aphrodite didn't have much true charisma.



Oh, are you talking about that big blonde cow with the really huge set who talked in that annoying valley girl way? Yeah, I'd agree with you, not much charisma, but massive presence (presences?) at the viscreal level.

[Rapier]

Like everyone said, situational modifiers is what makes PRE effective.

Also remember that as a rule, a normal person standing in a room shouldn't be able to turn a crowd into drooling idiots from PRE.


PRE has an NCM too. Above 20 is Super-Heroic!! :)

[Schwarzwald]

Ok, I kind of hate to use such a bad example, but just to see if I have it right, someone like Hitler would have had a HUGE, almost inhuman, amount of presence, which enabled him to turn a whole country into drooling idiots and screaming maniacs, but had very low comliness, because let's face it, he wasn't that great looking.



So have I got it right now? Presence defines charisma and isn't affected by looks, while you can have great looks (Comeliness) and still be basically a vapid, insipid little twit with no charisma or presence?

[bigdamnhero]

Right. In some circumstances a high Comliness may give you a complimentary roll or a bonus to your Presense, but they are two different stats.