It's HUGE! [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

Lord Liaden

May 30th, '03, 12:56 PM

You know, we HERO gamers are now used to big crunchy books, and have come to expect that that will translate into lots of neat useful stuff; but I'm wondering whether that applies to many other game buyers.

What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?

(Not a flame - I'm genuinely interested in opinions on what gamers are looking for, in your experience.)

hybris

May 30th, '03, 12:56 PM

Oh, yeah. I need this book. :D

By the way, we talked about this a bit here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4101) on the boards, including a very few details about playtesting, etc.

hybris

May 30th, '03, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?The rather large, very well-detailed books were one of the things that attracted at least me to Hero in the first place. :cool:

I like huge books on topics that interest me, RPG and otherwise.

And the 'average' gamer probably won't be too intimidated by it, either; the D&D core rulebooks aren't much smaller, after all. Especially the 3.5 version that's due soon.

Also:

Originally posted by Steve Long here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4101):
Right now it adds up to 299,760 words -- making it longer than the 5E manuscript by about 1,000 words, and also making it the longest single book I've ever written. However, I don't necessarily think it'll be quite as many pages as 5E, since Andy gets a little cleverer with layout every book we do and will probably work his usual miracles of space-saving.

buzz

May 30th, '03, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?

I think the big-ness and crunchy-ness of HERO is one of its selling points. There's a market for rules-lite games like Buffy or StoryTeller (kinda), and then there's a market for "dense" games like HERO, D&D3e, and dare I say GURPS.

I'd also think that the sheer hugeness of FH would be sort of a gimmick as well. I.e., "Do you have the gamer cojones to buy this product?" :)

I'm all over it. The bigger the better.

Steve Long

May 30th, '03, 01:56 PM

So, FH, will essentially be even bigger than FREd.

That's not necessarily an accurate conclusion.

The manuscript has more words; that's a fact. But that doesn't necessarily mean it will make a thicker book than 5E. That depends on all sorts of layout issues and thus rests in Andy's capable hands.

It might be thicker than 5E, but I tend to think that it won't be, simply due to improved layout skills. Just like I get a little better at writing with each book I do, Andy gets a little better with layout every book he does.

But there's no denyin' it'll be a big book. ;)

Monolith

May 30th, '03, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?
I think once they see Storn's cover they will be unable to pass it up. :)

Seriously, since it is only going to be about 20-40 pages bigger than Star Hero, I do not think people will be overly intimidated. Most of the Hero fans have been waiting for this book for a loooong time. Seeing as fantasy is the largest gaming genre I would bet that FH will end up being the company's best seller, after FREd.

The only thing which really bothers me about the size is that details and rules will have a tendency to get lost within the pages. Even today, after a year, I still find “hidden” rules within the 372 pages of FREd; I have the same issue with Star Hero. The bigger the book the easier it is to lose things, and the harder it is to find them when you need them. Thank heaven for the index (the bigger the book, the greater the need for an extensive index. :)

JohnTaber

May 30th, '03, 02:07 PM

Hi Lord Liaden,

Great question.

WARNING: This email is heavily IMHO. Ok...start reading... :)

I think the average Hero gamer will be ok with a thick book. Hec...the FREd Hero material just plain kicks serious tail. I'd order up 2000 pages if I could. ;)

Now...

I'm not sure the average D20 fantasy gamer will be attracted to a book this big. Isn't this one of the main selling points of Mutants and Masterminds? Same deal right? Simple and colorful CAN sell. I think it depends on the gamer.

After saying that I think Star Hero and Champions are examples of books that ANY gamer of the genre in question SHOULD buy. Champions is by far the best coverage of the superhero genre IMHO. Period. That is a book folks playing any superhero game could use. Knowing Steve FH will be a similar product.

Celtic Cowboy

May 30th, '03, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?

If Storn's cover is half as good as Monolith is making it out to be (which is what GRABS the buyers attention as they're walking down the isle) the size won't matter as much.

Sure it's going to be huge, but the content of that book would be spread in 2-4 books by other companies.

Now factor in the price that will be much more reasonable than what some other companies are asking and it will get attention. When I picked up TE at my FLGS the new guy working behind the counter did a double take when he rang it up and commented on how HERO hadn't jacked their prices through the roof like some of the other companies have lately.

BlackCobra

May 30th, '03, 02:35 PM

Me: yes, big is very very good. The more chunky Hero goodness available the better.

Others: assuming that the potential buyer(s) knows that it's a Genre book (with lots of non-rules stuff in it) and not a Rules book (particularly), I think the bigger book would be a distinct attraction. I realize that for us, Fantasy Hero will also include lots of good rules specific to the fantasy genre, but really they're just examples of how to do various fantasy bits. To my mind, that's more in the line of a source book rather than a Rules book, if you see what you mean.

On the other hand, I understand that this is also definitely not in the line of the Steve Jackson setting/source books -- which are chunky on content and generally kind of light on rules. Based on what I saw in Star Hero, I expect Fantasy Hero will be just what I want: a book which will let me build the fantasy campaign world I want.

Mmmmm. It'll be nice to get back to a Fantasy Hero campaign. Haven't played one in quite a while. And I really think 5th flatters the Heroic end much more than any previous edition (which for some reason in 4th Ed always seemed a little like after-thoughts).

Monolith

May 30th, '03, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Celtic Cowboy
If Storn's cover is half as good as Monolith is making it out to be (which is what GRABS the buyers attention as they're walking down the isle) the size won't matter as much.
Art is, of course, always subjective, but the rough pencil sketch looked pretty good to me.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37072

buzz

May 30th, '03, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Steve Long
The manuscript has more words; that's a fact. But that doesn't necessarily mean it will make a thicker book than 5E. That depends on all sorts of layout issues and thus rests in Andy's capable hands.

Oh, I'm just talking content. I mean, that's just freaking impressive. There's a lot of material in FREd. :)

PhilFleischmann

May 30th, '03, 03:08 PM

Yes. I'm also looking forward to this book.

However...

I've noticed something I consider annoying in some of the books lately: excessive space devoted to the obvious and useless examples. In TUV, which I have, and in USPDB, which I looked through in the store and decided not to buy, there seem to be endless columns of miniscule variations on things which should be obvious to any HERO gamer, even a relative newbie.

Things like this:

Blaster Cannon - buy this using an RKA defined as energy.

Small Blaster Cannon 3d6 RKA, 45 points

Medium Blaster Cannon 4d6 RKA, 60 points

Big Blaster Cannon 5d6 RKA, 75 points

Huge Blaster Cannon 6d6 RKA, 90 points

Mega Blaster Cannon 7d6 RKA, 105 points

Wide-shot Blaster Cannon 4d6 RKA, Area Affect One Hex 90 points

Massive Shot Blaster Cannon 4d6 RKA, Area Effect 6" Radius, 120 points

etc. ad nauseum

Is this really useful to anyone? Is it worth all the column-inches devoted to it? Back in grade school, when we had to write essays and term papers, this was the kind of stuff referred to as "padding." TUV and USPDB are filled with padding. I really hope that the Fantasy Hero book is not.

Size matters not. Only content.

BTW, what do you mean by "crunchy"?

Monolith

May 30th, '03, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
Is this really useful to anyone? Is it worth all the column-inches devoted to it? Back in grade school, when we had to write essays and term papers, this was the kind of stuff referred to as "padding." TUV and USPDB are filled with padding. I really hope that the Fantasy Hero book is not.
Well what is obvious and useful to a new HERO System player is not necessarily obvious and useful to a 20+ year veteran. I also think your example is taken slightly out of context. The USPD, for example, is designed to do all the leg work for a new player; and that leg work includes showing math for increased and decreased attacks. Most of what you are referring to as "padding" in TUV, iirc, was equipment options which differentiated from standard equipment, and thus was useful.

To each his own. I do think you are missing out on some very good information with the pages of USPD though.

Celtic Cowboy

May 30th, '03, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
I've noticed something I consider annoying in some of the books lately: excessive space devoted to the obvious and useless examples. In TUV, which I have, and in USPDB,

Well the USPD is a book of examples, so yes by default I suppose it's bound to have a lot of examples in it. And for new players who don't their way around the system these examples is what's making it a fast moving little book as well.

Haven't spent as much time looking at the TUV.

Steve Long

May 30th, '03, 03:23 PM

I disagree vehemently that there's any "padding" in those books. I also think you are grievously overestimating what some gamers, particularly newcomers to the system, consider "obvious." There are lots of people out there for whom what you call "padding" is valuable and useful material, if for no other reason than it saves them a heckuva lot of time.

Considering that USPD is selling quite well, and that we've received lavish praise for it from both veterans and newcomers alike, I think the approach we took was the right one, and it's one we'll use in future books of a similar nature (such as the FH Grimoire).

You're absolutely right when you say that it's not the size of a book that matters, but the quality of the content. That's why both TUV and USPD have sold so well for us -- they're full to the brim of high-quality content, including what you unfortunately think of as "padding."

BobGreenwade

May 30th, '03, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Steve Long
I disagree vehemently that there's any "padding" in those books. I also think you are grievously overestimating what some gamers, particularly newcomers to the system, consider "obvious." There are lots of people out there for whom what you call "padding" is valuable and useful material, if for no other reason than it saves them a heckuva lot of time. This is especially true considering that what was in DH#7 was only a droplet out of what was cut from my original manuscript (meaning the big one I emailed to Bruce Harlick in '97 when TUV was planned as a Hero Plus publication). There were two different alien races with their ships (and, in one case, mecha), a couple of "organic" Vehicles (one literally, the other figuratively) built as regular characters, a half-dozen vehicular superheroes/villains, real-world spacecraft (such as the Saturn space rocket and the space shuttle), odd vehicles like the Skycar and the Segway, mass combat rules, a half-dozen sample campaigns centered on vehicles, a somewhat more extensive random roadway generator, air and space encounter tables, further abilities for vehicle operators (including several applications of Powers and Power Advantages)... and that just covers what I can remember without calling up the actual file. I literally could compile another entire Hero book -- or maybe even two -- out of what I cut plus what Steve cut, if he'd let me.

PhilFleischmann

May 30th, '03, 04:35 PM

I don't mean to overstate my case. I loved TUV - there was a lot of useful information in it. I appreciate the writeups for all the different specific vehicles. My problem was with the writeups for each minute variation on each piece of equipment.

You say it's not necessarily obvious to a new player, and that may be true, but I find it hard to beleive that anyone needs to be told that you can build a vehicle's radar using Radar Sense. Well, duh!

I'm glad the products are selling well. I want you to stay in business for a long time. USPD does not seem like a useful book to me, and I'm trying to keep my gaming budget under control, so I won't be buying it. I can guarantee I'll be buying FH though (and I want the Bestiary too, but my local stores are out).

misterdeath

May 30th, '03, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
Size matters not. Only content.

BTW, what do you mean by "crunchy"?

To answer the second thing first, Crunchy is a term first thrown around by the 3E crowd (that's where I first heard it). It simply means "full of useful gaming stuff". Rules, characters, examples, things anyone can use for their games right out of the box.

It's the opposite of Fluff, which is all the campaign, timeline, specific stuff which requires that you integrate it with your campaign.

The former is also known as Crunchy bits. Because they're the stuff gamers can sink their teeth into.

So, Crunchy == Content.
___

To go back to the first point. My wife (brought into gaming through 'urps, and is running the 3E campaign I'm in) looked at Hero with askance when she saw the size of it. "Too Much Information, or at least Too Intimidating". When I described the USPD to her, she said point blank, "that's the most important book for anyone not already a Hero player. That should have been out first. Well, second after the main rules." (It got to the gaming store tonight. He was just closing up, so I don't get the book till tomorrow.)

Because all those examples make the game less intimidating. Because it ropes people into the system, gives them a chance to see how good it is, and then allows them to peer behind the scenes.

The average gamer wants to pick up the book, and use it. Not digest it, then try to figure out how to model the exact thing they want. Just pick it up and go.

It's why we bought all those Enemies books, back in the ICE age. To get cool, but badly done, character and power examples.

Sure, you use Radar Sense to buy radar. But, do you need Analyze or Discriminatory? What do those mean?

Well, you know what they mean in your game, and I know what they mean in my game. But, what happens if some newbie picks up the system and wants to run something?

Having something as simple as a Radar Sensor Unit in the book gives the newbie a chance to go, "Ahh, that's not so tough to do. So, that's how it's done."

D

Steve Long

May 30th, '03, 05:11 PM

I find it hard to beleive that anyone needs to be told that you can build a vehicle's radar using Radar Sense. Well, duh!

Take it from the guy who answers questions from the fans (including many sent to me directly) -- you'd be surprised at how many people, not just newcomers but some veterans as well, don't always grasp this "obvious" stuff. It's not always obvious to everyone. Even if it's obvious once they find it, sometimes they have difficulty tracking it down, and then understanding the possible options. USPD's real good for solving that sort of problem.

As for the Bestiary -- we'll be reprinting that Real Soon Now, to accompany FH. So have no fear, you'll soon be able to buy it. ;)

Killer Shrike

May 30th, '03, 07:39 PM

TUV is simply awesome. If there are 2 pages of "pad" between its covers I have yet to find them.

USDB is similarly awesome. Yes, there are endless variations of the same basic power constructs (big surprise -- you can get at just about any power construct from just about any SFX, with the right conceptualization), but its such a massive time saver and jump-starter that its priceless. It also has little hidden gems of coolness scattered throughout, and officially answers the question Ive been sick of hearing for the past 10 years (ie "How do you build the Rogue Power?").

Really sorry you wont be picking it up; its such a great supplement I think ALL HERO System gamers should have a copy. Its like the Ultimate Powers Book Lives Again!

Blackout

May 30th, '03, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Steve Long
Take it from the guy who answers questions from the fans (including many sent to me directly) -- you'd be surprised at how many people, not just newcomers but some veterans as well, don't always grasp this "obvious" stuff. It's not always obvious to everyone. Even if it's obvious once they find it, sometimes they have difficulty tracking it down, and then understanding the possible options. USPD's real good for solving that sort of problem.

As for the Bestiary -- we'll be reprinting that Real Soon Now, to accompany FH. So have no fear, you'll soon be able to buy it. ;)

Time to suck up...

I've been playing Champions for, well, since 1984...and there was plenty of "obvious" stuff in FREd that I hadn't thought of. Same goes for USDB.

Shameless plug time: I talked up the USDB to one of the customers - a HERO newbie - in my store (Lost Worlds) (http://www.lostworlds.biz), he bought it, took it home, and was able to finally make up the character he's been wanting to play. This made him VERY happy. Which makes ME very happy, 'cause I love HERO and now there's at least one more person happy with the game.

One of the best things about USDB is that it makes life MUCH easier for those HERO GMs among us (me for one) who haven't mastered the mantra, "points are for players." I can slap together a fully "pointed-out" baddie in no time now, and that's a good thing!

So, what I'm saying is, if those products can help me (an almost 20 year "vet") AND they can help someone who's been playing less than six months...well, I'd say they're doing what they're supposed to be doing.

Back to FH... If this book can help me ween my regular gaming group off of D&D, it'll be worth "slogging" through as many pages as it takes.

Jeff T.

May 31st, '03, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by Monolith
Art is, of course, always subjective, but the rough pencil sketch looked pretty good to me.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37072

Alright! That looks like it's gonna be great!

PhilFleischmann

Jun 2nd, '03, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Blackout
Back to FH... If this book can help me ween my regular gaming group off of D&D, it'll be worth "slogging" through as many pages as it takes.
Amen to that!

Hmmm... Well... Maybe I'll take another look at USPD. It's low on my priority list, but maybe I'll pick it up eventually.

Agent X

Jun 2nd, '03, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Steve Long
I disagree vehemently that there's any "padding" in those books. I also think you are grievously overestimating what some gamers, particularly newcomers to the system, consider "obvious." There are lots of people out there for whom what you call "padding" is valuable and useful material, if for no other reason than it saves them a heckuva lot of time.

Considering that USPD is selling quite well, and that we've received lavish praise for it from both veterans and newcomers alike, I think the approach we took was the right one, and it's one we'll use in future books of a similar nature (such as the FH Grimoire).

You're absolutely right when you say that it's not the size of a book that matters, but the quality of the content. That's why both TUV and USPD have sold so well for us -- they're full to the brim of high-quality content, including what you unfortunately think of as "padding." I think I would go so far as to say that those suggestions in the margins of the books give player benchmarks as much as guides on design. That is always useful. Sometimes I quibble about the benchmarks you are setting but then I just "cheat" on those and change them. It is handy for the guys who walk into the store to score a game with new people and they tell them that "everything is pretty much like what it suggests in the books" or "we go a little higher on effect than the books do." Benchmarks are good.

CleverName

Jun 3rd, '03, 05:48 AM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?

I think that for every gamer intimidated by the size of a book -- especially a "genre" book -- there's another who thinks, "What a bargain!"

I do know of some gamers put off by the size of FReD, the core book. When most people play HERO and see that the 95% of the work is up-front during character creation, then the majority of their objections fade. It sounds kind of trite, but I often start out with the index. That usually blows most experienced gamers away!

Whereas, when I've shown Star Hero to even non-Hero gamers, they are impressed by its depth and breadth - so size is a plus in these types of books. (And the index still rocks!) Star Hero was the first supplement from HERO GAMES that really showed a lot of gamers I know that HERO supplements can _exceed_ the general _utility_ of the GURPS supplement line.

It looks like FH is on the way to being like SH --- a great genre sourcebook. I think that its size will be a plus. First, it offers HERO players a ton of info on running Fantasy. I think most hero gamers will buy it eventually. Second, it offers non-hero players a ton of info they can use (rip off) for their own systems.

Will it woo away _tons_ of d20 players? Probably not -- at least initially. Unfortunately, I think that's partially to do with timing. With the release of 3.5 this summer I think the buzz around D&D will be very strong this summer. Who could have foreseen that it would be going up against 3.5? (Despite some histrionics on forums like rpg.net, I forecast that 3.5 will be a huge success.) BUT I believe that success of any kind in the hobby is good for all in the long run. I am very hopeful that folks looking for a GREAT alternative to d20 will take a look at FH.

Will this cross-market approach sell a lot of copies? I don't know, most of my data is anecdotal, but I know that several non-hero gamers will give it a look based on the strength of SH alone. I hope the trend continues.

Good job, HERO! Keep it up.

Talon

Jun 3rd, '03, 06:22 AM

USDB was a stroke of freakin' brilliance -- a book that eases newcomers into the Hero System, while showing everyone what you can do with the rules. Whoever said it should have come out second after FREd was absolutely right...but it was so not the kind of book Hero would put out in the past. I wonder if it was on the schedule or if it took Steve and Co. a while to think of the idea. :)

I'll be infecting my D&D group with the Hero System at some point, and USDB will be a prime weapon in my arsenal.

As for "trivial" examples: I expected to see them in USDB, where they make sense. I didn't find that TUV or Star Hero had an excessive amount of such examples, so I don't expect to see too many in FH either.

AnotherSkip

Jun 3rd, '03, 07:15 AM

Actually I see 3.5 as a _huge_ flop.

especially with the history behind T$R.

Most of the Mods are puny (woot woot now we have TWO count them TWO ways to build a ranger TWC OR Archer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! did i say Woot Woot? dont worry, ILL DO IT AGAIN ANYWAYS!!!! Woot Woot!)

90% of the stuff is in 3rd allready so why even bother? it is almost as ridiculous as the SR books (version 1.9 for 3rd edition Rulebook.)

just sell the flexibility and people will get the idea.

after all if you are going to spend the time to make mods for 3(.5)rd edition might as well build a campaign for the Hero System.

Greatwyrm

Jun 3rd, '03, 07:16 AM

I thought I'd chip in with some insight from someone very new to HERO and a d20 die-hard.

First, all those examples are not padding. I'm sure some of you who have been with HERO since the beginning look right past them. For me, if the big black book hadn't had them, I never would have bought it. It's just that simple. It would have been like trying to learn a foreign language without those little tapes that let you hear what the phrase is really supposed to sound like. Sure, you can do it, but it's a lot easier with the tape.

Next, the size of the book, quality of the art, and level of crunchiness will not matter to the typical d20 gamer. For the most part, people play D&D/d20 because its 1) simple and 2) familiar. For most of those people, HERO appears to be neither. (Please note, I said "appears".) d20 is geared for people who like "plug and play" games. HERO appears to be more of a game for people who like to open the case and play with jumpers, at least as far as GMs go.

I really first became interested in HERO when I first heard about the 3.5 revision. I'm very happy with what I've found. I'm developing a new campaign for my group to begin playing in early next year. While it looks like most of the group is happy with the revision so far, I'm keeping the setting open mechanically so I can make the switch to HERO if we want to. It's basically going to be big changes like this or people just looking for a less cookie-cutter feel to their game that will bring people to HERO.

For example, the friendly competition ads with Champions and Silver Age Sentinels. I remember one where the Chamions guy says something like "and your powers work every time, just the way you want them to." That kind of customization, coupled with the fact that your abilities are limited only by your creativity and point budget, are the sorts of things that need to be brought to the front if you're trying to go after most d20 gamers.

Well, that and the fact the system isn't really that hard. Most of the resistance I've met with HERO is from people who remember people playing (what I assume were) previous editions, rolling carloads of dice to see if they could cross the street, and tracking the thousandths of each character point.

buzz

Jun 3rd, '03, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
Actually I see 3.5 as a _huge_ flop.

especially with the history behind T$R.

Thankfully, TSR no longer has anything to do with D&D. :rolleyes:

3.5e, like every edition if D&D, will sell tons of copies. It's only anecdotal evidence, but pretty much everyone in my d20 groups has pre-ordered copies of at least the 3.5e PHB.

CleverName

Jun 3rd, '03, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by buzz
Thankfully, TSR no longer has anything to do with D&D. :rolleyes:

Amen, brother.

3.5e, like every edition if D&D, will sell tons of copies. It's only anecdotal evidence, but pretty much everyone in my d20 groups has pre-ordered copies of at least the 3.5e PHB.

Yeah, if Another Skip is arguing that HERO and FH in particular are superior systems overall, I doubt you'd get much arguement on these boards - not from me at least.

If AS thinks that 3.5 is going to tank sales-wise or diminish the popularity of D&D/D20, well, it ain't going to happen. As Hans and Franz would say "Listen to me now; believe me later."

I doubt WotC will get the sales that they did for 3.0 up front, but it will still be huge and _constant_ seller.

This is starting to get too much into the d20 vs. Hero realm...blech. I play both, enjoy both and look forward to doing more of the same with both 3.5e and FH.