Is there going to be a heroes book?

[djday38]

I was wondering if there is going to be a book for heroes along the same lines as CKC or will they be expanded on only in Digital Hero, as they have been so far.

Myself, I would love to see a book like this as I feel Champions in the past has never matched it's fnatastic villains with equally intresting and powerful heroes, so we have been left with half a universe in effect.
for example we have our Ulton type but no Hank Pym.
We have our Joker but no Batman, We have our Dr. Doom but no FF, etc, etc.

Know i know this has got a lot beter with 5th edition as many more heroes are being both written up for use and mentioned.

I was just wondering what the plans (if any) are on this as I could certainly use the knowledge of who the best of the best are and were during the different times.

I would like eventually powerful and popular heroes for all the classic "types". It would be very easy to change individuals if they strayed too close to PC heroes, so avoid any toe treading.

anyone else curious about this? Who is the champions universe equivelent of Superman? Wonder Woman? Aquaman? Captain America? Thor? Spider-Man?

rgds
Dean

[Steve Long]

We have no particular plans for a book like that at this time. I really don't think it's of as much interest or use to the average gamer as a book of villains or many other books we could produce. It's more likely that we'll include NPC heroes in various setting books and the like as seems appropriate.

But you never know. Maybe we'll change our minds and toss a heroes book on the schedule at some point.

[Storn]

To back Steve up on this one, I remember the ol' ICE and Hero folk mentioning that 4th ed Allies was one of the worst sellers for them. Now, I have no numbers to back up that claim, but both ICE and Hero folk mentioned it to me back in the day.

[SKJAM!]

This was pretty much my thought, too, when I proposed Allies, yea, these many years ago.

But there are some caveats: the player characters should be the center of the campaign, if not necessarily the campaign world. If there are heroes more powerful or capable than the PCs, there should be a reason why they aren't doing the job that the PCs are handling. And NPC heroes that are more interesting to the GM than the PCs are right out.

I was specifically asked by the Hero editors of the time to include plenty of reasons why the characters in Allies would come into conflict with PC heroes. Most of the material from that supplement should be easily updatable to 5th Edition.

Some thoughts: which NPC heroes are suitable depends on the function of the player characters' group. If the PCs are a gritty street-level team, then someone else is handling the cosmic-level threats to life as we know it. On the other hand, if the PCs are the world's finest heroes, then NPC heroes are better done as local protectors or specialized crimefighters. ("You may be hot stuff against land criminals, but if the crooks are underwater, then I, Fishmaster, am the one to call.")

One option I've seen good reviews for is the "guest hero", someone with a very straightforward set of powers (to make for a simpler character sheet) who during most game sessions is busy with his own affairs, but when a new player drops by, is available to help out. (This saves time for not having to teach the creation rules to a newbie the first game session.)

For what it's worth,
SKJAM!

[Worldmaker]

Other than giving the players yet another set of antagonists, one use for such a book would be "instant player characters". I know lots of Champions players for whom writing up a character is the least favorite part of the gaming experience.

[BobGreenwade]

I'm sorry to hear that Allies was such a poor seller. I have the book, and while it did have its weaknesses it also had some pretty cool ideas in it.

Its main weakness, I think, was the lack of "flow" -- it didn't have a unified idea, from one mind making sure that all the needed parts were covered. It was less a book of allies than a book of heroic enemies -- the "let the PCs come into conflict with these heroes" part was overdone, to the detriment of all other possibilities.

A book of heroes, I think, should include the following functions (in no particular order):

1) Heroic NPCs for the PCs to come into conflict with, for a variety of reasons. Zen Team, the Braverman Foundation, and particularly the Posse did this quite well. A different type of conflict was presented with the Flashmen, who were done quite brilliantly IMO.

2) Experts for the PCs to consult when they don't have any expertise in a particular area. There was some of this in Executive Sanction, the Cyberknights, and Mr Nobody, but it needed to be more prevalent and brought out a bit more when it's present. The possibility of learning stuff from them (that is, using NPC heroes as a source for learning new Skills) is also good.

3) "Instant PCs" for visiting gamers, first-timers, and last-minute drop-ins. These would almost have to be independent heroes, rather than team members. The only ones I'd consider even close to good for this would be Long Walker and maybe Interference -- though both are built on different point totals than a standard beginning PC.

4) Heroes to pull the PCs' fat out of the fire when they get in over their heads. It's been said many times that this should be minimized, though there are ways to soften the "blow" and make them not feel like screw-ups ("We've been trying for months to get this far. In a way, it's us who should be thanking you!"). And don't forget the reverse option, of NPC heroes who get in over their heads (as in V.O.I.C.E. of Doom or {To Serve And Protect) and need help from the PCs.

5) Plot seeds from individual NPC heroes, even those who are members of a team. The new version of the Champions handles this quite well.

Let's see... what else? :)

[Monolith]

I want an allies book as much as the next person, maybe even more, but I do think that DOJ has done a fairly good job of giving us NPC heroes so far. We currently have write-ups for 19 NPC heroes (this does not includes Silver Avenger Sanchez) out of some 185 named heroes in the Champions Universe. That is something like 10%, which does not seem too bad for only having that information from 3 books.

Digital Hero just published the write-ups for the 50's-70's Fabulous Five and I understand that the Sentinels are next on the list. So all things considered I think the write-ups are coming out at a fairly good speed and there are plenty of NPC heroes to give to a new or unexpected player during a game session.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Worldmaker
Other than giving the players yet another set of antagonists, one use for such a book would be "injstant player characters". I know lots of Champions players for whom writing up a character is the least favorite part of the gaming experience. I think this might be workable if it was expanded a bit. I think a book of "cut-n-paste" characters could be useful if each character included all of the following: A detailed background set in the Champions Universe, allowing you to use the character in that setting if desired.
A basic background that's not plugged into the Champions Universe, making it easier to use the character in a different campaign or as a "bare-bones" character intended to be fleshed out more by the end user.
A "Hero Option," an "Anti-Hero/Sympathetic Villain Option," and a "Villain Option," offering suggestions on how to use the character in each of those three niches.
Make all of the characters exactly 350 points, but include notes on increasing or decreasing the power level.The ultimate goal of this would be to create a book of plug-n-play characters that could be used as NPC heroes, starting PCs, or adversaries, and could be plugged into the Champions Universe or left stand-alone.

This kind of product might make a good ebook. PDF publication would keep it from diluting the focus on the Champions Universe in the published books, and make it easy to print out just the character sheets needed for use in game play, etc.

[djday38]

Surely not all products with a large percentage of heroes have been poor sellers? both "To Serve and Protect" and "V.O.I.C.E" had whole npc hero teams included and are pretty fondly regarded adventures and characters.

Lets not forget the mythical "Strike Force" campaign book which had a very large number of heroes detailed, so I think it depends on the product.
Green Ronin's "Freedom City" has many heroes I have heard (not bought it yet) and is supposedly seling very well.

I jus tthink depending on the execution "hero" books could be very popular.

rgds
Dean

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by djday38
Surely not all products with a large percentage of heroes have been poor sellers? both "To Serve and Protect" and "V.O.I.C.E" had whole npc hero teams included and are pretty fondly regarded adventures and characters.

Green Ronin's "Freedom City" has many heroes I have heard (not bought it yet) and is supposedly seling very well.

I jus tthink depending on the execution "hero" books could be very popular.


To Serve and Protect & VOICE (two of my all time favorites)were adventures rather than an sourcebooks, which made them cheaper and you also got a villain/villain team to boot. Sourcebooks as a rule are more expensive, and sometimes that limits who purchases them.

Freedom City does present quite a few heroes, all with a villain option, which is like getting two characters for the price of one. If the DOJ were to do a 5th Allies, perhaps they would consider this as well, since it would give more bang for the buck. Personally, I would rather see a Champions Worldwide suppliment, featuring heroes and villains from different countries, before a straight Allies suppliment.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Storn
To back Steve up on this one, I remember the ol' ICE and Hero folk mentioning that 4th ed Allies was one of the worst sellers for them. Now, I have no numbers to back up that claim, but both ICE and Hero folk mentioned it to me back in the day. That may have something to do with the content of the Allies book. It seemed that Hero was so concerned about overshadowing the players that they made NPCs who would prove to be of little use in introduction unless the Ref wanted to work hard at it - and some of the ideas were way out in left field. I pretty much use Executive Sanction and the Zen Team, that's about it.

[Hermit]

As for Allies, I actually bought it. I got the most use out of the Flashmen (Who the PCs grew to hate *S* When they exposed them, they cheered), but I personally 'liked' the Cyberknights best. :) A theme team that was very detailed. Zen Team was a close third, lots of fun.

I don't know if another Allies type book would sell or not given the rumored poor sales of the 4th Ed one. Perhaps an E-Book would be better?

[Jhamin]

I agree with the assessment that the problem with Allies was that most of these guys had such problems to prevent them from being too good that they ended up not being very good allies.

3/4 of them were basically villians or uninvolved supers with good PR. That was my biggest disappointment with them.

I got alot of mileage out to the Cyberknights as a fellow team of heroes that would show up from time to time in "Secret Wars" or "Crisis" type adventures.

Zen was good, I just never got around to using them.

[TechnoViking]

I think sourcebooks that features heros only is a bad idea, but a team book would work. Look how popular Strike Force and To Serve and Protect are. I think Strike Force is one of the most collectable Hero books.

My suggestions would be:
- A international super team similar to GURPS I.S.T. (Gurps Supers was bad, but I.S.T. was a nice sourcebook. Maybe could be a series covering the Champions Universe in different parts of the world (maybe we will finally see Champions "Far East" sourcebook).

- A team book in the vein of JLA or The Avengers. I would make this a higher power level book, and maybe outside the current CU. Although Reality Storm covers is very similar to this.

- Pay Aaron Alliston to re-do Strike Force for FREd. I know is it a pipe dream, but so was 5th edition for many years :) .

- Also, when Galactic Champions comes out I hope to see a Legion tribute group in it.

Mike

[AnotherSkip]

Whaaddaya think they are going to do with the Name that Hero Contest?

seems like a shoo in idear for me!

[Monolith]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
Whaaddaya think they are going to do with the Name that Hero Contest?

seems like a shoo in idear for me!
That is a very good point. Between the 7 characters from the contest and Eagle-Eye and Taurus, who are now officially part of the CU, that is 9 NPC heroes who are just perfect to be introductory or fill-in heroes for new players.

[AnotherSkip]

And with a bit of tweaking you could take the "losers" and have them as rivals.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Mike Basinger
- Pay Aaron Alliston to re-do Strike Force for FREd. I know is it a pipe dream, but so was 5th edition for many years :)
I know this may seem strange but I have to wonder how well Strike Force really did sell. Almost everyone I know who has it loves it, but it seems like Aaron was still selling copies of it on his website up until DOJ started publishing 5th Edition. It would seem that either the book did not sell that well or ICE vastly overprinted it.

[Enforcer84]

I've got Strike Force, Serve and Protect, and I had Allies but it got lost in the move from college(and I'd like it back).

I found the "team books" to be the most sought after books from the "Comic License" games, DC & Marvel, but the CU lacks that kind of backdrop. However, I really think a book detailing some of the heroes of the CU, along with their rogues gallery if they haven't been written up already, perhaps broken down by archetype or team would be a welcome product.
I gotta tell you, I loved Watchers of the Dragon, the 3 main Enemies Books, Allies, Strike Force, Villany Unbound, VIPER, Classic ORganizations...etc. I really like seeing the Universe fleshed out more and more in an official manner, it makes it easier for me to insert my creations if I know who the Sentinals are, were, and may yet be.

[Hermit]

I think the UNTIL book , when it comes out, will have the write up for the UNITY Team. While Vibora Bay is said to have no official team (Which maybe a good thing, since some[Not I] complain about the Champions in MC), it will have some NPC heroes and villains as well.

I think we'll be getting what we want bit by bit. I wouldn't mind seeing up a write up of some of the teams mentioned in previous works... the Justice Squadron etc, but it's probably best as part of an adventure.

[djday38]

While region books might be the way to go, I would have liked to see a real CKC treatment for the iconic heroes of the champions universe.

As we got the main master villains and teams in the CKC, it would be nice to see the iconic heroes who define the universe. these would be the guys with their own long running comic books and the popular hero teams of the CU.

With most campaigns going with the 350 point limit, there is a lot of scope for the more established powerful heroes to be used again and again in a campaign.

But if each hero comes with a villain option, we have the best of both worlds.

rgds
Dean

[SKJAM!]

Well, I'm certainly glad to see that some of you (many of you?) enjoyed Allies, even if it didn't sell very well. It's interesting to see different people's reactions to the various concepts.

Unfortunately, since I signed away the rights to the characters when I accepted the contract, I am given to understand that I can't put updated versions of them up here on the bulletin board. And since there are no plans to reuse any of the characters, that leaves them in limbo....

But hey, if Allies didn't sell well, that means there should still be cheap stockpiles of them in various game stores' back rooms.

For what it's worth,
SKJAM!

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit
As for Allies, I actually bought it. I got the most use out of the Flashmen (Who the PCs grew to hate *S* When they exposed them, they cheered), but I personally 'liked' the Cyberknights best. :) A theme team that was very detailed. Zen Team was a close third, lots of fun.

I don't know if another Allies type book would sell or not given the rumored poor sales of the 4th Ed one. Perhaps an E-Book would be better? I forgot about the Cyberknights. With a little tweaking they're cool.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
I know this may seem strange but I have to wonder how well Strike Force really did sell. Almost everyone I know who has it loves it, but it seems like Aaron was still selling copies of it on his website up until DOJ started publishing 5th Edition. It would seem that either the book did not sell that well or ICE vastly overprinted it. If it was vastly overprinted they all landed somewhere far away from me. I have one friend with a copy and I, sadly, have never found one.

[djday38]

Team books much like the old organisation books and the upcoming versions of viper and UNTIL would be cool.

As previously said you could go through the various membership roster changes of a team like the Sentinels for example then give their rogues gallery in all it's glory.

Finish of with a more detailed history and plot seeds and it would be a nice product.

You could do the same for the solo lone wolf heroes.

that reminds me of a small gripe about the Champions. For a suposedly new team on the block why are they mentioned as hunters for so many villains?
If would be nice to spread this around the existing hero teams a lot more, so we have a better idea which villains are part of which teams rogues gallery, at the moment it looks like the Champions take on everybody and all the others sit at home watching tv!

A more distinct team and villain pattern would be better as we have in the comics with Kang & Ultron hunted by The Avengers, Dr. Doom hunted by the FF, Magneto by the X-Men and so on.

Sorry to go on about it but it makes the CU seem smaller and less realistic somehow.

rgds
Dean

[megaplayboy]

well, one thing I wouldn't mind seeing, given that the Champions are basically the flagship NPC team in the Champions Universe, would be some kind of flagship solo NPC hero, like Supes and Spidey for DC and Marvel respectively.

Some players resent or don't appreciate highly capable NPC heroes flying in to save the day, but on the other hand a lot of players like to know there 's someone out there in case they fail, or that there's an icon for them to look up to when they're just starting out. NPC heroes are also a handy tool for GMs--they can call the PC team for help, give useful info, add flavor to the campaign, and provide a little extra muscle when a player is a no show for a big fight.


Was there ever any thought about an iconic solo character for the Champions Universe?

[Agent X]

I'm one of the guys on the forums who thinks that, if the Champions are the flagship heroes, they need to be built on more points. Icons are not average superheroes.

[keithcurtis]

I think an incredibly useful team would be a Hero Team sourcebook. Each chapter would cover a different type of superteam.
Examples:

The Governement Sanctioned Team (Avengers, some incarnations of the JLA)

The independant supernational team (The Authority, some incarnations of the JLA)

The Privately Funded Team (Teen Titans, Marvel's Champions, The FF)

The Outcast Team (The Doom Patrol and their copy, the X-Men :) )

The for-hire team (Power Man/ Iron Fist, Some team that DC recently had that I can't remember)

and probably others...

Each write-up would include the heroes, their HQ, vehicles and gadgets, how they operate, what tactics they use and a (GM vault) adventure for each. Each chapter would also include a lengthy section on how to adapt it for your PC's or campaign.

Keith "Just thinking out loud" Curtis

[Morningstar]

I would love to have a heroes book simply because(like most of my friends) I don't get a chance to play anymore but reading all the material and mentally making characters is still a lot of fun. I might be in the minority but having a good career, family and little time, makes it hard to play but easy to afford books that cost less than taking the family to one movie. Ill buy them all unless the start to become rushed or poor quality.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by SKJAM!
Well, I'm certainly glad to see that some of you (many of you?) enjoyed Allies, even if it didn't sell very well. It's interesting to see different people's reactions to the various concepts.

Unfortunately, since I signed away the rights to the characters when I accepted the contract, I am given to understand that I can't put updated versions of them up here on the bulletin board. And since there are no plans to reuse any of the characters, that leaves them in limbo....

But hey, if Allies didn't sell well, that means there should still be cheap stockpiles of them in various game stores' back rooms.

For what it's worth,
SKJAM!

Sean, I'm another of the folks who enjoyed Allies; many of the characters made guest appearances in my campaigns, albeit with the inevitable tweaks that all HERO GMs seem to make. ;)

Have you asked Steve about the possibility of posting updated versions of any of them to the boards? I inquired about VOICE, and Steve told me that although Hero Games still owns the rights to them, since he doesn't intend to use them in the new CU it would be all right to update them, discuss changes etc. as long as we made it clear that it was being done with Hero's permission. (Haven't had time to deal with that one yet, but I have plans, heheh...) Perhaps Steve would make allowances for some of your characters, as well.

As far as new NPC heroes goes, while I'm not sure I'd be that interested in a book focussing on more North American supeheroes (between old and new edition writeups I think I have that pretty well covered), the heroes of many other countries would definitely interest me. International NPC heroes make good encounters as local color or visitors to this continent on special missions. Ideally I support the previously mentioned notion of a book or books detailing various regions of the world, with notable heroes and villains from each region. I'm sure there'd be a market for that. :cool:

[BobGreenwade]

Of course, I don't think anyone here (or at least not many) are saying that a new Allies book should be added to the 2005 schedule. There are a lot of other books screaming to be done before that. We'd just like to have it considered for the product line. If done well, it could even lead to heroes books in other genres.

[SKJAM!]

Well, after messaging Mr. Long on the subject, it seems that while there are no plans for an heroes book as such, *some* of the characters from Allies *may* be used in future Hero products (and no, I don't know which ones), so no updates. Sorry, folks.

Regretfully,
SKJAM!
(Meanwhile, please check your FLGS for back copies of Allies! This has been an egoplug.)

[TheEmerged]

I have to admit that I'd be more interested in more NPC Heroes than most -- after all, I'm running a villain campaign. My PC's need somebody to beat up ;)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by SKJAM!
Well, after messaging Mr. Long on the subject, it seems that while there are no plans for an heroes book as such, *some* of the characters from Allies *may* be used in future Hero products (and no, I don't know which ones), so no updates. Sorry, folks.

Regretfully,
SKJAM!


Well, if they're taking votes, I'd put the Cyberknights at the top of my request list :)

Thanks for checking SKJAM

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Hermit
Well, if they're taking votes, I'd put the Cyberknights at the top of my request list :)

Thanks for checking SKJAM

Seconded!

[wcw43921]

Cyberknights is good; Executive Sanction would be even better, as the PCs would be more likely to meet up wih them as some city-shaking menace threatens to endanger the nation.

I wouldn't mind seeing the 5th Edition Zen Team--they were favorites of mine.

[Lord Liaden]

As long as we're discussing characters from Allies that we'd like to see updated:

The Cyberknights were an excellent example of a "theme" team: very balanced, interesting personalities, and good for NPC encounters, especially if your PCs need technological expertise.

Ditto the Zen Team: good manga-style team flavor, good for an international encounter, and potential conflicts over the agenda of their corporate sponsors.

The Flashmen make wonderful rivals for PC heroes, since they are unlikely to actually compete with the players' heroes in world-saving and fighting evil, but are masters of claiming credit they don't deserve.

Executive Sanction is a good idea for a government-sponsored team that can be allies or obstacles for PC heroes, depending on the specific circumstances and the PC's relationship with the government. They do need more combat capability, though.

The Redeemed is a very interesting concept which can pose some moral dilemmas and grey areas for heroes. It might be helpful if the abilities and skills of the Redeemed covered a broader spectrum, so that they could be brought in from time to time for non-combat contributions.

[djday38]

If we are talking about past champions hero teams to get updated for 5th my vote has to go to the Protectors from "To Serve and Protect".

They were easily my favourite NPC hero team (even above the characters in Stike Force and that is priase indeed).

I seem to remember there were other threads talking about them recently?
So what are the chances of us seeing them updated? anyone want to speculate?

Regarding the Allies supplement he teams I would like to see make a comeback were Executive Sanction, The Redeemed, and the Cyberknights.

More for the fact that the CU needs those team "types" than keeping individual memebers intact.

rgds
Dean

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by djday38
If we are talking about past champions hero teams to get updated for 5th my vote has to go to the Protectors from "To Serve and Protect".

They were easily my favourite NPC hero team (even above the characters in Stike Force and that is priase indeed).

I seem to remember there were other threads talking about them recently?
So what are the chances of us seeing them updated? anyone want to speculate?

Well, we're about half way there. :)

Fellow board member Glen Sprigg posted 5E updates of Helios, Silverfist, Renegade, Ace and Doc Sonic on the pre-DOS discussion boards, with the full blessing of TSaP author Scott Heine, who also gave us fascinating behind-the-scenes details of his campaign which spawned them. You can find those updates here:

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/002229.html

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/002229-2.html

Scott Heine also generously contributed new color renderings of those characters to go with the updated stats. I don't think they're attached to that thread any more, but Scott was kind enough to put up a link to the whole gallery:

http://www.geocities.com/scott_heine_hero/

Unfortunately, neither Scott nor Glen has had the opportunity to do more with them yet, although Scott keeps threatening to post pics of the rest of the team. ;) Worth waiting for, says I.

[Hermit]

I have to admit, Executive Sanction really didn't do anything for me. They were okay, but my least favorite team in the book. They didn't seem very formidible (nothing wrong with that if you prefer them as investigative over combat ready I suppose), OR interesting (Sorry, I found their personalities mostly bland). Out of all the teams in allies, I think they would need the most retooling. Understand, I'm comparing them to the other teams in the Allies book, some of which were exceptional.

That doesn't mean such a team is a bad idea. In fact, in the current Champions Universe, with the registration act a fact and the stakes upped (Destroyer has leveled a city etc) I think such a team is a must. I, personally, think such a team would be more potent in combat overall, have training in Public Relations, and often work with Agents/Followers in other departments to supplement them in research and investigations.

[Lord Liaden]

I agree with virtually all your points regarding this team, Hermit. I've been thinking about them since SKJAM! first brought them up on this thread; I realized that given the current state of the Champions Universe, it would be pretty easy to retool them into a more effective combat unit, without diminishing their intelligence-gathering capacity or significantly altering their interpersonal dynamic.

Since we still have Project: Sunburst and PRIMUS in the CU, Major Star and Silver Avenger Rakham could remain virtually unchanged. Panacea contributes almost nothing to the team other than his healing power, but the character Lifeline from The Mutant File has very nearly the same background, mutant healing ability and mindset, but far more formidable and versatile (albeit mostly defensive) combat capability, plus broader scientific expertise.

Stewart White is also a poor fighter, and his lack of costume and code name further sets him apart from the rest of the team, but his computer manipulating powers can be very useful; it wouldn't be hard, though, to justify passing his power suite on to Foresight (she might even have studied accounting.);) As a replacement for him, I'd suggest another operative from another government agency, the CIA's Felix 9 (also from Allies). IMHO his distinctive appearance works against him as a credible covert operative, but he would bring formidable "black ops" expertise to Executive Sanction. And he's even more socially inept than Stewart White!

With virtually no change to her background, Victory (from Champions Universe) would make a very appropriate substitute for Traveller as NASA's representative on Executive Sanction. And FBI agent Frank Long, aka "Gumshoe," would be a worthier candidate than Lucius Grimes to pilot the Bureau's Stalwart powered armor suit (also from CU). If you didn't want to change Stalwart, you could either have him replace Gumshoe as the FBI candidate for Executive Sanction, or have the experiment that VIPER performed on Frank Long give him more offensive powers. (I did that with Long when I used ES, changing his codename to the more heroic, and apropo, "G-Man.")

[mrswing]

I too would like to see a set of iconic solo heroes for the CU. IMO, the CU has generally (in all editions) been weakest on the hero front. A large number of really good villain concepts have been published over the years, but relatively few heroes of comparable quality have been presented (and yes I would also consider the Protectors as the best of the lot so far). Freedom City succeeds in giving us very recognizable heroes (sometimes so recognizable I worry about plagiarism suits) which do not detract from the enjoyment of the game in any way.
Somewhat related to this is an idea I've had for a long time. The problem with most published superhero rpg adventures to my mind is that they can only work on the level of spectacle (action sequences) because they have to work for a huge number of gaming groups. On the other hand, many people find it difficult to find large gaming groups, while getting together with one or two friends is more manageable. Wouldn't it be possible to come up with sourcebook/adventures focussing on one hero (or maybe two, Batman and Robin style) who is examined in depth, also presenting a ready-made set of NPCs and story hooks, and then use this hero in a short campaign (three adventures maybe?) in the same book? This would help new players immensely, and save time for GMs - as well as enable the sourcebook writer to add more (and deeper) character interaction in the adventures so they actually are closer in feel to the source material? If these supplements were not too big in size (or presented a lot of extra campaign material) I think they could be quite succesful - and perhaps even cross over to other superhero game systems (indeed, they could be dual- or tri-statted).

[assault]

Originally posted by mrswing
Wouldn't it be possible to come up with sourcebook/adventures focussing on one hero (or maybe two, Batman and Robin style) who is examined in depth, also presenting a ready-made set of NPCs and story hooks, and then use this hero in a short campaign (three adventures maybe?) in the same book?

A kind of mini-campaign with pregenerated characters? Interesting. I don't know how it would sell, but it would certainly be interesting reading.

It reminds me a little of the old DC Heroes RPG sourcebooks on Superman and Batman. The Batman one, in particular, had a couple of reasonably developed, if uninspired, scenarios.

More generally, I suppose the pregen(s) could be replaced by other characters of the same general archetype(s). This would be easiest in non-powered Dark Champions games, I suppose. Of course, even there there can be a range of characters. Not every character would be a clone of the Punisher or the Batman, and their responses to situations could vary accordingly. (Green Arrow? The Question?)

But anyway, you are correct in that small groups (1 or 2 PCs) are a viable way of playing Champions. Of course, small group games aren't _entirely_ different from larger groups, but they probably are more dependent on background details and NPCs.

The problem is, of course, that background details aren't necessarily applicable to all campaigns. Then again, the characters presented in combat oriented scenarios are usually firmly attached to a particular background (or at least country), and need at least a little bit of tweaking by individual GMs.

Anyway, you've raised some interesting questions here, which intersect with some things that have been going through my mind. Thanks...

Alan

[assault]

I've thought about this some more.

Something that might be useful would be a how-to guide to campaign design. Essentially, what it would do would be to show how to start with a couple of PCs, and build up a world around them.

This would entail taking their Hunteds, DNPCs, Contacts, Favours, as well as their origin stories, and developing them into well-rounded characters, organisations and locations that the PCs can interact with, and which can serve as plot seeds, people to fight or protect, and places that can be fought in or protected. Places like the PCs homes, workplaces, bases and favourite hangouts could be developed, as well as the places where the various NPCs can be found. For example, a "street" contact might be found in a certain bar, so, of course, you want some details about the bar. (Obligatory Daredevil fight scene...)

The book would thus show how to do this, while, of course, providing some examples to act as a library that can be borrowed from by less experienced/motivated/energetic GMs.

There could also be a discussion of the implications of certain disadvantages. One thing that has been bugging me of late is the handling of Hunteds. As you get more PCs in a game, you start getting more and more Hunteds, as well as duplication of them. Each of them has to be developed, and each of them has to show up at some point, and each of them, ultimately, has to be a key element of a scenario. With enough Hunteds around, the basic course of the entire campaign becomes set. That's fine, but it means that the GM has to think about what is going on while the players are generating their characters. This kind of stuff isn't necessarily going to occur to relatively inexperienced GMs.

And then, of course, you do need some sample scenarios, hooking the various bits and pieces together, and providing examples of how to bring the PCs together into a team, and all that kind of thing. Preferably, as well, the scenarios should be both easy to run and interesting. (I have to say that I didn't consider the sample scenarios in 4th Ed Champions particularly interesting.)

So I guess what I am suggesting is a "how-to" book that would also act as a bit of a sourcebook on some NPC heroes and their world, and a library of other NPCs and locations.

Of course, while all of this should be self-contained, it should be able to be expanded by other books like Millennium City, VIPER, CKC, and probably some equivalent of Normals Unbound. (Ah, that's another hint there, isn't it?)

Alan

[mrswing]

This 'how to create a campaign'-idea is quite interesting too. If done well it would be both a very viable game background for people to start playing in and an example for GMs (and players) on how to create a world/well-rounded character.

If one really pitches this at beginners, the first adventure could even be an origin issue, using all the elements of the sourcebook part of the book to create richer adventures than generally possible in superhero gaming.

Another thought : if one were to do this in a 128-page book, then there could be four different hero types/campaign flavours (acrobatic vigilante-detective, rampaging brick, high-tech hero and mystic master, for example, or alien champion of justice, misunderstood mutant, mirthful mercenary, troubled teen... oops, seems like I'm channeling too much of Stan Lee there).

If such a project wasn't dual-stat, I would definitely tie it into the main setting of the game (CU-Millenium City). As such that would help make that setting even more alive to GM and player and enhance compatibility with later products.

[djday38]

While we are on the subject of iconic heroes, who do you think the Spider-Man type of the CU is or was?

From the little we know from the information given so far I think the teenage hero the Hornet (not the modern villain) best fits the role.

hopefuuly we will eventually see him in all his glory in DH.

anyone else?

rgds
Dean

[mrswing]

I don't think there ever really was an iconic CU Spider-man - and no iconic Superman either. Both great oversights IMO...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by mrswing
I don't think there ever really was an iconic CU Spider-man - and no iconic Superman either. Both great oversights IMO...
I think DJDay38 is correct about Hornet. He clearly fills the role of the 60's Spider-man. I would think that Superman is actually Captain Patriot, with a degree of Captain America thrown in as well. Captain Patriot's write-up reminds me quite of bit of the 30's Superman. Considering how much we do not know about the other 165 Heroes on the list it is very possible that Superman is within that group even as we speak.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by mrswing
I don't think there ever really was an iconic CU Spider-man - and no iconic Superman either. Both great oversights IMO...

I can't recall a Spider-Man type written up in the CU, but they did come close to a Supeman figure with Captain Australia, mentioned on the 4E Champions Universe supplement and written up in the first Hero System Almanac. Essentially a flying brick with high Speed and enhanced senses - pretty tough, although not really in Superman's league. OTOH, Viperia (from the VIPER sourcebook) was very obviously an anti-Supergirl, with a whole suite of "Kryptonian"-style powers. Now Crusader was clearly the CU Batman, especially after his rewrite as a Dark Champions character in Underworld Enemies.

As far as assault and mr. swing's concept of a "campaign building" book, some of what they're suggesting reminds me of Aaron Allston's Strike Force, which shows the growth and development of his personal campaign and the real-life events which it reflected. I'm not sure that the kind of book you're proposing, interesting as it sounds, would have wide appeal, though. A great deal of the practical advice you're asking for can be found in the Champions genre book, while much of the appeal of Strike Force comes from the personal touch of being allowed to look beneath the reality of the campaign world. I fear that the focus might be a bit too narrow. :(

[djday38]

Yes, Captain Patriot does feel like a golden age hybrid of Cap and Supes, although he would be much too low in power level for my taste to represent the modern version of Superman.
Again like yourself I have on idea which hero this would be if any from the info thus far provided.

Th All American feels like the modern cap to me, while others that spring to mind would be Meteor Man 3, being the clear Green Lantern type. I especially like the legacy involved with the character, it was a nice touch.

Others would be the Fab Five equalling the Fantastic Four, and Nighthawk being Batman, although i would like to see him powered up if that were the case, hmm maybe he more represents Nightwing and we have yet to see an older more experianced scarey Batman type, maybe when Dark Champions comes out?

anyone else have any guesses? this is turning out to be fun!

rgds
Dean

[Hermit]

Yeah, All American has a Cap vibe going... though I haven't really tried him out yet as an NPC and am not sure if I like him yet (He's got big shoes to fill *S*)

I don't see Nighthawk as Nightwing...he's not under anyone's shadow for one thing. I prefer to think of Nighthawk as 'Batman: Year One' with the added twist of he is more willing to try teamwork... barely.

I wouldn't be surprised if we find our 5E 'Superman' type in Europe or something, given Captain Australia of 4e.

While I don't see our beloved Peter Parker being a govt agent for long, for spider POWERS there is a guy named Tarantula working for the FBI in 5e NYC. :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Hermit
Yeah, All American has a Cap vibe going... though I haven't really tried him out yet as an NPC and am not sure if I like him yet (He's got big shoes to fill *S*)
All American is much more like Nick Fury without being the leader of SHIELD, IMO. He's just a slightly above average trained guy with a patriotic mindset.


I wouldn't be surprised if we find our 5E 'Superman' type in Europe or something, given Captain Australia of 4e.
Hyperion might fit that bill, but we do not really know much about him, other than his "burning light of truth" powers. :)

Just expanding on the list I would say:
Maris = Namor
Nightwind = Nighwing
MeteorMan = Green Lantern
Defender = Ironman
Sapphire = Dazzler
Dr. Silverback = Beast
Diamond = Thing
Nighthawk = Batman
Kinetik = Flash
Star*Guard = Green Lantern Corp

That is all I can think of off the top of my head.

[djday38]

I think making the Superman type non american based would not feel right to me, although obviously of alien origin, he has always felt very american to me, most likely due to his traditional values and costume colours.

Although I would not mind if the powers that be set up more than one Supes type character so they could be rivals, so we could have a Superman/Captain Marvel thing going on.

I think with Kelvarite being present in the CU, that the stage is just set for a great Superman tribute with maybe his rival hero being more magically inclined (and maybe from europe). If they also connected their power sets in some way so they were both vulnerable to the other, it would be great.

It would also be cool if they eventually introduced a extended super family for one of the characters (supergirl, Superboy, Mary Marvel, Cap Marvel Jr.).

We already have some Superman rogues gallery present (Franklin stone springs instantly to mind).

rgds
Dean

[BlackKnight]

I'm in exactly the same situation, Morningstar, and feel the same way as you. I love all of the hero-centric books I've seen from Hero in the past: the aformentioned Allies, plus Champions of the North and Kingdom of Champions, which detail lots of heroes from Canada and the UK, respectively. I've always viewed those books, along with the Mutant File, and, to a lesser extent, the enemies books, as great resources for ideas/examples for my own characters. If I'm creating a speedster character or an archer or something, it's great to find similar characters to see the way they are written up, detailed, steal ideas from, etc. I imagine that the USPD will fill that role nicely (mine won't be here until next week), but a list of powers and a book of complete characters is two different things...both would be welcome in my collection.


Originally posted by Morningstar
I would love to have a heroes book simply because(like most of my friends) I don't get a chance to play anymore but reading all the material and mentally making characters is still a lot of fun. I might be in the minority but having a good career, family and little time, makes it hard to play but easy to afford books that cost less than taking the family to one movie. Ill buy them all unless the start to become rushed or poor quality.

[BlackKnight]

I would buy an international heroes/villains book as well. I second the earlier endorsement of the GURPS International Super Teams setting book. While I wouldn't play GURPS Supers over Champions, the IST idea is very cool and it's great brain-fodder to see lots of example heroes written up with international twists.



Originally posted by Lord Liaden

As far as new NPC heroes goes, while I'm not sure I'd be that interested in a book focussing on more North American supeheroes (between old and new edition writeups I think I have that pretty well covered), the heroes of many other countries would definitely interest me. International NPC heroes make good encounters as local color or visitors to this continent on special missions. Ideally I support the previously mentioned notion of a book or books detailing various regions of the world, with notable heroes and villains from each region. I'm sure there'd be a market for that. :cool: [/B]

[Agent X]

Originally posted by djday38
Yes, Captain Patriot does feel like a golden age hybrid of Cap and Supes, although he would be much too low in power level for my taste to represent the modern version of Superman.
Again like yourself I have on idea which hero this would be if any from the info thus far provided.

Th All American feels like the modern cap to me, while others that spring to mind would be Meteor Man 3, being the clear Green Lantern type. I especially like the legacy involved with the character, it was a nice touch.

Others would be the Fab Five equalling the Fantastic Four, and Nighthawk being Batman, although i would like to see him powered up if that were the case, hmm maybe he more represents Nightwing and we have yet to see an older more experianced scarey Batman type, maybe when Dark Champions comes out?

anyone else have any guesses? this is turning out to be fun!

rgds
Dean Nightwing is mighty! Let's not forget he ko'd Hal Jordan and was trained by the Warlords of Okaara. I don't care how badly they write him now. He was once... a Titan.:D

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by SKJAM!
One option I've seen good reviews for is the "guest hero", someone with a very straightforward set of powers (to make for a simpler character sheet) who during most game sessions is busy with his own affairs, but when a new player drops by, is available to help out. (This saves time for not having to teach the creation rules to a newbie the first game session.)

Oooo. I like that idea.

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by djday38
I think making the Superman type non american based would not feel right to me, although obviously of alien origin, he has always felt very american to me, most likely due to his traditional values and costume colours.

<p>Heh. I still think of Superman as a Canadian hero. (C'mon... you did know that Metropolis is Toronto, didn't you? Complete with the Toronto Star... er... Daily Star!)

<p>In terms of Champions Universe Superman, I thought that Vanguard filled that role (mostly, 'cause I really see the Justice Squadron as a Justice Society parallel)

BCing you

[wcw43921]

I always considered Starburst the Champions "version" of Superman, if for no other reason than he could fly and he wore a cape. He may not have had the power level (closer to Spider-Man's) and the high-ideal mindset (Psych Lim: Publicity Seeker) of Big Red, but that could come soon enough given time and experience points.


I do wish they'd kept Crusader and Starburst for 5th Edition.

[assault]

Originally posted by wcw43921
I always considered Starburst the Champions "version" of Superman, if for no other reason than he could fly and he wore a cape. He may not have had the power level (closer to Spider-Man's) and the high-ideal mindset (Psych Lim: Publicity Seeker) of Big Red, but that could come soon enough given time and experience points.


I do wish they'd kept Crusader and Starburst for 5th Edition.

Hmm, Starburst as Superman? I have to confess that while the idea has crossed my mind, I've always immediately dismissed it without taking the time to think it through. I may take that time, now.

I miss Starburst and Crusader too. In fact, my thoughts on a campaign design book were derived from what I have been doing with them lately.

I pulled out my old copy of 2nd Ed Champions recently (my copy of 1st Ed seems to be buried deeper in the "files"), had an attack of nostalgia, and started building a CU based on the characters in the book, refraining from any heresies like Dr Destroyer, Stronghold, the Enemies books, and so on.. (I conceded a place for Holocaust, though, since he appeared on the front cover.)

To my surprise, it actually worked! There is quite a neat little universe tucked in there, which I missed when I was young. The trick is to fiddle with the time line, so Shrinker, for example, starts off as a heroine and an associate of Starburst and Crusader, and only goes bad during the course of the campaign. Mechanon, similarly, shouldn't exist at the start, but should be built as a security robot for the hero team. That would probably take a bit of manipulation in a real game, but could be managed. :)

Ogre would be created by Mechanon during the game.
Dragonfly could be a rampaging lab accident, who it might be possible to "cure". Of course, the "cure" might not be permanent.
Icicle (Christine Saunders) might be a relative (niece, cousin, sister?) of Crusader (Sam Saunders).
Pulsar might begin as VIPER's main super muscle in the area, before getting his own ideas.
(and so on...)

This stuff actually sounds like a comic series, doesn't it? Soap all over the place. And we haven't even looked at DNPCs, agencies, corporations (Bio-Investigations? Well, I suppose we could look at the 4th Ed write up for them...), or written up any actual player characters to replace Crusader and Starburst as the stars of the campaign.

Enough. I'm rambling.

Cheers,
Alan

[Monolith]

Originally posted by assault
I miss Starburst and Crusader too. In fact, my thoughts on a campaign design book were derived from what I have been doing with them lately.
Crusader is still part of the CU (he is listed as a New York City hero), though it appears to be a sword-wielding version, possibly the character from C:tNM.

[assault]

Originally posted by Monolith
Crusader is still part of the CU (he is listed as a New York City hero), though it appears to be a sword-wielding version, possibly the character from C:tNM.

Exactly. The original version is not only gone, it's been made explicitly clear that he won't be back.

Crusader is no longer part of the CU. Some other guy has replaced him.

Crusader is not merely pining for the fjords: he is a dead parrot.

If any of my characters ever run into the punk that stole his name, they'll give him a serious kicking.

Alan

[djday38]

Starburst always felt more like someone like Firestorm to me.
He is too much of an energy projector and not enough of a brick to be the CU Superman.

Talking about old characters I would love to see Dragonfly back in print. While i suspect he may have been replaced by the villain Hornet, there is still room for him if you make him a ravenous insect with the intelligence of a animal, with only food on his mind, and that food is you! (thoughts of the fly movie come to mind).

rgds
Dean

[Enforcer84]

I feel nostalgic for a lot of the gone but not forgottons. To this day, I would love to see write ups for the Guardians. (not the Champions from the comics althought they might have been accurate, I need to see Gargoyle or no deal).
I'd like to see mention of or inclusion of: Starburst, Crusader, The Geodesics,
Thunder & Lightning, Hideous, Wyvern, Fire & Ice, and among the 4ed set that I liked from the examples: Randal Irons, Dimitri Ironjaw, Arkelos the Mage, Holocost, the guy in the blue and silver he's fighting, sigh, getting nostalgic in my age.

[assault]

Originally posted by djday38
Starburst always felt more like someone like Firestorm to me.
He is too much of an energy projector and not enough of a brick to be the CU Superman.

Talking about old characters I would love to see Dragonfly back in print. While i suspect he may have been replaced by the villain Hornet, there is still room for him if you make him a ravenous insect with the intelligence of a animal, with only food on his mind, and that food is you! (thoughts of the fly movie come to mind).

rgds
Dean

Starting with Dragonfly: Yes. Make him a curable rampager, and you're cooking with gas. Something like the Lizard from Spiderman.

Starburst: Again, yes. His personality is definitely reminiscent of Firestorm (early Firestorm, anyway), as well as Booster Gold and Blue Beetle. He has a definite showboat and "in it for the fun and ego boost" aspect. Still, he could always mature, at least a bit.

As for being a potential "Superman" - well, I suppose it depends what you mean by it. He's not a brick, obviously, but he could still potentially be the iconic hero of heroes. (He would need to mature a lot first, of course!) He doesn't really need to have Superman's powers, or even the full extent of Superman's power level, to fill this role.

To tweak him to make him suitable for this role, you would have to expand his multipower a bit - he does need a bit more power - and build up his characteristics a bit (more PRE, INT, EGO, BOD...) You would also need to pad out his hand to hand combat capabilities a bit by, say, giving him some rather basic Martial Arts, as well as increasing his Strength to, say, 20. That would give him the capacity to bash thugs, without making him a brick. Finally, add lots and lots of skills and perks. This would probably take him up to about 450 points, without doing too much damage to his original character conception.

At that point, my 250 or 350 point characters might be willing to call him "sir". My 450 point characters would be honoured to call him "friend". What more do you want?

Alan

[djday38]

Yes the Lizard/Mam-Bat type is an exact fit for Dragonfly and Champions used to have a few of these types which have yet to show up in the new CU (Wyvern and the Griffon also come to mind).

A Superman type for me anyway needs to VERY strong and tough, at least 70+ strength. Mixed in with some slightly weaker energy projector powers and good movement.

Most importantly is his personality, which has to be very heroic.

rgds
Dean

[SKJAM!]

Originally posted by Hermit
I have to admit, Executive Sanction really didn't do anything for me. They were okay, but my least favorite team in the book. They didn't seem very formidible (nothing wrong with that if you prefer them as investigative over combat ready I suppose), OR interesting (Sorry, I found their personalities mostly bland). Out of all the teams in allies, I think they would need the most retooling. Understand, I'm comparing them to the other teams in the Allies book, some of which were exceptional.


This is what happens when you have to get Congressional approval for your members. No people who look too freakish, have bizarre personalities, or major skeletons in their closets.

Thoughts on possible updates in another post.

SKJAM!
"For justice!"

[bubba smith]

as for the classic cu's answer to the alleged wall crawling weasel since he's always being overmatched i'd say SEEKER would fill the bill

[Lord Liaden]

And bubbamancy is loose again. :rolleyes:

FWIW here's an outline of my own recent retooling of Executive Sanction from the 4E Allies book, using characters from the 5E Champions Universe so the team could easily be incorporated into it:

Project Sunburst and PRIMUS are both part of the official setting, so b]Major Star[/b] and Silver Avenger Rackham can be used with little change. Victory (Champions Universe) can substitute for Traveler -- their origins are nearly identical, and because of it Victory could justifiably be NASA's contribution to the team.

Kodiak (Millennium City) can replace Gumshoe as the FBI's contribution, and his origin, pseudo-bestial nature, and relatively low Character Point total would justify adding Gumshoe's Enhanced Senses to his abilities. Kodiak's partner from MC, Teknique, has powers similar to Stewart White's but more combat ability, and a background and nature that would have suited her to the IRS before joining Executive Sanction.

Foresight can remain as is; although for my campaign I replaced her stunner gun with an innate Ego Attack defined as "sensory overload." As Allies points out Panacea was never temperamentally suited for this team, and his Powers have limited use; but for my games I blended him with Lifeline from the 4E Mutant File. The two characters have similar backgrounds and ideologies, but Lifeline is more useful in a fight and has more motivation for active superheroing.

This lineup retains most of the intelligence-gathering strengths of the original, but is far more combat-effective.

[Beast]

with 6th edition only 6 to 7 months away
getting an idea on how heroes should cost out with the possible changes that have been brought up in the 6th ed forums(from removing secondary characteristics entirely to tweaking some to take over from others)
also a listing of "Jobs that I can come back to without loosing should an emergency arise and need to leave in a hurry to save the DNPC/city/country/world/universe/ etc"

[Lawnmower Boy]

And now that we've been through the controversy and past, I have to say that the "heroes books" (Champions Worldwide, CU:NOTW, Champions of the North) have been some of my favourites. I mean, who doesn't like team-up books, and these characters are written to unleash the possibilities? I can't see a campaign set in Vancouver not drawing in "global" elements. The plot driving elements are huge:
Ravenspeaker, of course, as Vancouver's senior super, tweaked as I've suggested in other postings (Scott Bennie's excellent background in CN s a long leg-pull, which is absolutely Raven's style, and he's actually the supposedly late Haida sculptor Bill Reid). People who've been following the local news know that Ravenspeaker recently had to deal with a crisis so big that he needed to "borrow" back a few items he thought he could leave behind the ironclad wards at the UBC Museum of Anthropology forever.
Soaring Eagle, because Japanese-Korean-Chinese girls touristgirls are everywhere around here, and she has some unfinished business with a Canadian connection, (Hidden Lands, 90)
Tetsuronin/Charm Girl (because ditto)
Corrente on the same theme, only Portuguese tourist instead
StarForce, not least because Potenstorm is apparently in Vancouver, now
The Indian Superhero Division, for undercover work, probably meaning Anvil and especially Saba Devatao
Tiger Squad
Der Bogenschutze Stalking a German criminal on his B.C. big-game hunting vacation only to find that he's protected by Warpath of the War Machine. And then things take a turn for the strange.... Ooh, this one is writing itself as I think about it...

[Tech]

To back Steve up on this one, I remember the ol' ICE and Hero folk mentioning that 4th ed Allies was one of the worst sellers for them. Now, I have no numbers to back up that claim, but both ICE and Hero folk mentioned it to me back in the day.

I bought Allies, so I was one of those buyers. Yea, me! Still have it and use it from time to time, too.

[Lord Liaden]

I bought Allies, so I was one of those buyers. Yea, me! Still have it and use it from time to time, too.

Ditto. The Cyberknights remain one of my favorite Champs NPC hero teams, interesting characters with a strong unifying theme. Executive Sanction and the Zen Team both made it into my games. And my PCs had built up a lot of resentment toward the Flashmen by the time they finally got the chance to show them up (and kick their butts), which they found very satisfying. :eg: