Want to look at my new Map?

[Eosin]

This is a blow-up of the Western Region of the continent of Roen in The Last Dominion. I am still trying to figure out how to label the lakes. :nonp: They were done by Keith "I AM THE MAP MAN" Curtis but all the textual mess should be blamed on me.

This map has been updated.


http://www.pencil-pushers.net/images/TheWest.gif

[Eosin]

Oh yeah, comments & crits are invited.

[Old Man]

God that map is gorgeous.

Is there anything going on up by the northwest coast? Seems like it would be relatively easy to reach by boat.

[Lumbering Ox]

1: Those lines that go from the compas add no information and distract and should be removed. A longitude/latitude might be subsitites if you wish.

2: The Last Dominion lable and the scale should be put together in a legend box with further info. You use three symbols for places, a square and a circled circle, what is Gorgoros and Ravenswood. Also if you add more cities, borders etc, that information should be there also. Although your symbology is pretty obvious, so the need for further info of this partiular map is not so great.

3: If you keep the white lines going from the compass then Lower the Mareduin Seaway text a bit and move the Myr Isil to the left.

4: There is one city far to the right which is non labeled.

5: Your use of blue for regional names should be changed as it has nautical connetations. Save a dark blue for lakes, rivers et al, if you don't use black.
Perhaps red? Also the legend could speify if these are regional names, country names etc. Write the text with the same colour and font and then identfy.

6: Borders?

7: Some of the city and other names should be shifted ever so slightly so the rivers don't run through a letter but between letters if at all possible.

It is however a nice looking map, and although a Geologist might pick at details, I not being such a person like the general shape and placement of landforms.
Also it looks like you used layering which is good.

As someone who did 3 courses in Cartography, I must ask two things.

1: What program did you use.
2: How did you do those mountains. It is truely sad how little we actually learned in terms of actual computer use.

[yamamura]

map envy.......

the closest I can do is this.....

[Wolfe-Chan]

I think it looks awesome! Is it finished or are you still working on it?
I am thinking of Getting Campaign Cartographer to do my maps some one suggested it when I posted my map that I drew in pencil for my Fantasy by Gaslight Campaign.

[Eosin]

1: Those lines that go from the compas add no information and distract and should be removed. A longitude/latitude might be subsitites if you wish.

They are themed to match the other maps in the setting. I understand the opinion but for a published map, you have a balance of art to function.


2: The Last Dominion lable and the scale should be put together in a legend box with further info. You use three symbols for places, a square and a circled circle, what is Gorgoros and Ravenswood. Also if you add more cities, borders etc, that information should be there also. Although your symbology is pretty obvious, so the need for further info of this partiular map is not so great.

Hmmm... Agreed with every aspect. I will tinker a little. :)


3: If you keep the white lines going from the compass then Lower the Mareduin Seaway text a bit and move the Myr Isil to the left.

Good call.


4: There is one city far to the right which is non labeled.

Yeap.... I don't know what the name is yet and have to do a little language research before it gels.


5: Your use of blue for regional names should be changed as it has nautical connetations. Save a dark blue for lakes, rivers et al, if you don't use black.
Perhaps red? Also the legend could speify if these are regional names, country names etc. Write the text with the same colour and font and then identfy.

Good call.


6: Borders?

I am toying with this.

1. This is a fantasy setting just emerging from a plague period. Most countries CLAIM far more than they actually hold. That leaves me in a quandry ~ put borders with vast open spaces between kingdoms or create an illusion of hegemony? There will likely be something to indicated "lands claimed" but it may not be on this map.


7: Some of the city and other names should be shifted ever so slightly so the rivers don't run through a letter but between letters if at all possible.

I will take a closer look at this. Thanks.


As someone who did 3 courses in Cartography, I must ask two things.

1: What program did you use.
2: How did you do those mountains. It is truely sad how little we actually learned in terms of actual computer use.

There are a few things.

1. I hand drew the borders and refined once I got a rough idea of the mountain, low spots, etc...
2. Scan it in and make notes on multiple copies (wind, watersheds, continental formation, etc...)
3. Send all of that along with my notes and a check to Kieth Curtis.
4. Kieth works his continental magic in Photoshop and then imports the "land" into Illustrator. When he is done, I get the map back and work on the labeling in illustrator.

Kieth would have to get into the art aspects of drawing mountains in Photoshop.

[Eosin]

Here are a few of the developmental maps.

The base image.

http://www.pencil-pushers.net/images/continentbaseclean.jpg

Air flow and rainfall corrections. With a little help from some of the folks who know such things.

http://www.pencil-pushers.net/images/commentscontinent.jpg

[AlHazred]

I am mightily impressed! Both with your work and that of the inestimable Mr. Curtis! We are not worthy!

I'd love to pick nits but the few I'd have have already been mentioned by Mr. Ox.

Bravo!

[Enforcer84]

I like the artistic embelishments.
That is breathtaking.
..
..
Mostly comments, my cartography skills are non existant.

[keithcurtis]

As someone who did 3 courses in Cartography, I must ask two things.

1: What program did you use.
2: How did you do those mountains. It is truely sad how little we actually learned in terms of actual computer use.

Eosin answered this to some degree, but I might be able to elaborate. The base map (most of the non-textual parts) were done in PhotoShop in a variety of layers. Some of the things you see are little tricks with layer effects, others are straight out painting. The mountains, for instance, are painted entirely by hand. There is a little work with the stamp tool, but that's just the starting point. The layers are kept for future editing.
The entire map is placed in Adobe Illustrator for labeling, cropping, outlines and borders and such. Illustrator is far superior for typography. On some maps with custom painted symbols, I will place these in Illustrator too. This is only one possible approach, and I often use different combinations for maps, depending on the style I'm trying to achieve. Here's a page (http://home.comcast.net/%7eKeithCurtisDesign/Map_Samples/) I put together for Empty Room Studios, but I use it for my own self-promotion as well.
Oh, and good comment about the use of layers. It's critical in good planning and editing.


Keith "Thanks for all the nice comments, folks" Curtis

[Dr. Anomaly]

"My god...it's full of maps!!!"


;)


Truly awesome, Keith. I wish I had a tenth of your mapmaking skills; I have one particular world I'd love to have done by you, but I have serious doubts about being able to afford you...because, man, you are quality! :eek:

[Eosin]

Here's a page (http://home.comcast.net/%7eKeithCurtisDesign/Map_Samples/) I put together for Empty Room Studios, but I use it for my own self-promotion as well.

I hadn't seen that one yet. Terrific portfolio page.

Obviously, I like mine best. Excluding 3P maps, I love the work on Tallon, The Hall of Art, City Center, & Merchant Neighborhood. They showcase your many strong points (other than overland mapping).

The Hall of Art really rocks my fantasy bones. Is it based off anything or all in your head?


Randy

[keithcurtis]

Thanks. The Hall of Art is entirely my own creation, but I suppose the floorplan style owes a lot to classical (ie, pre-concrete and steel) floorplans. I guess a big cathedral would be the closest parallel. It is deliberately designed to be unbuildable in order to empahsize the "magical" construction techniques inherent in the society.
As for thematic inspiration, Hogwarts, HarperHall (Pern), the wizard's school from Earthsea, and a medieval University in unequal parts.

Keith "Impossible dome builder" Curtis

[Susano]

Once I get the political boundaries of of Kazei 5 North America set, I gotta pony up the cash and commission a map from you.

[Savinien]

This be bein' the end o' you, Vance!

-Riccoco


Awesome stuff, Keith!!!

[Sword-dancer]

map envy.......

the closest I can do is this.....

I would be more than glad to come at least near your skill.

[BobGreenwade]

As always, Keith Curtis' maps kick major butt. :thumbup:

[Lumbering Ox]

E... The mountains, for instance, are painted entirely by hand. There is a little work with the stamp tool, but that's just the starting point. The layers are kept for future editing.
...
Oh, and good comment about the use of layers. It's critical in good planning and editing.



We used Corel Draw for our stuff. We used layers all the time. As for mountains/hills, so basiclly you drew something in and then used the same image over and over again? I would have tried something like that when I did a map for a buddy, but alas I can hardly spell art with a spellchecker, let alone draw something.


One thing I find is that even after 3 courses, which was really one course, then another that had a 90% overlap and a third which again 90% of prvious work + a major project, the weird thing is that if people take a bit of care [and Roleplayers who make maps do] can generally do just as well as the trained, with only minor details that only a trained and anal eye would notice ;)

Dispite my comments, it was a good map.

[Steve Long]

Nice to see so many of your maps in one place, Keith! I think I even recognized one or two. ;)

[Basil]

I really, really like this map. I do, however, have a few nits to pick. ;)

The compass lines are very "period," being used on maps from the early middle ages right through the renaissance. However, subdividing the eighths into 9 pieces (total of 72) is right out. Compass lines showed 16 or (very, very rarely 32) divisions.

The letters in gray should be changed to true black for ease or reading.

Indeed, all the colors should be made bolder. At present they are too soft, too bland, too similar. Frankly, it gives me a bit of an eye-strain trying to read the map. I know many older maps (17th century or so) are about those colors, but that's because they faded. It's pretty, but it isn't as useful as it could be.

However, let me say that I love the landforms, and the overall appearance. Terrific work, gentlemen! :thumbup:

[Susano]

Indeed, all the colors should be made bolder. At present they are too soft, too bland, too similar. Frankly, it gives me a bit of an eye-strain trying to read the map. I know many older maps (17th century or so) are about those colors, but that's because they faded. It's pretty, but it isn't as useful as it could be.

What's funny, is I see this in the SCA. You make something period and present it, and it's all shiny and bright, and people say "that doesn't look right." Why? Because the reference item is 600+ years old, and is dark with age, faded, battered, and so on. As I work in wood, this is really obvious.

[Curufea]

It's a bit like Roman costume dramas full of white marble. Just because all the paint came off the statues and walls by the time we see it, they thought that was how it was.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Faded colors.
Yes, pigments fade over time. Paper yellows. A map seen today does not look like it did when it was new over 400 years ago.

However.

A "new" map does not look right to our eyes, nor does it inspire a feeling of the fantastic or ancient or classical. You see this in period movies all the time. "O Brother, Where Art Thou" has a really good feature on the DVD edition discussing just this. The movie, if shown in natural, vibrant color, would totally lose impact. By muting the colors and putting it through "sepia filter" the emotional feel of "different time and place" is evoked, regardless of how it really looked. BTW, his was the first movie for which this was done entirely digitally, but it is done to some degree to ALL motion pictures. It's called color balancing. If it's done well, you hardly notice it, but it definitely achieves its effect.

Anyway, I'm not defending my work. Just shedding some light on why certain choices were made. If someone doesn't agree, that's certainly within their rights as the viewer.

BTW, I usually work in natural color on something like this and rely on filter layers to give me the final look-and-feel. It's a lot easier to fine tune them that way.

Keith "Brought to you in living color" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

The compass lines are very "period," being used on maps from the early middle ages right through the renaissance. However, subdividing the eighths into 9 pieces (total of 72) is right out. Compass lines showed 16 or (very, very rarely 32) divisions.:
Portolan (http://www.mundi.net/locus/locus_003/) charts used a gazillion lines, to give compass headings from port to port, but that's different from what I was doing, or what you're describing. To be honest, the lines are there as an artistic invention, nothing more. Rhumblines radiate from the points of a compass rose, but I imagine they're only useful on particular projections. I'll have to do some research.

Keith "form over function in this case" Curtis

[assault]

I'm kind of sort of considering doing up a fantasy world for myself, and one of the things I have been thinking about is what style of map to use.

I don't really want to use a modern style map. They wouldn't exist in the setting, and they don't contain any information that I would want to know about. Then again, there are some very old maps that come close to a "modern" style. So I'm kind of vacillating.

To make it worse, I'm not entirely sure what the scope of the campaign would be. Once you have sea travel happening, the game can spread out very quickly. Even an enclosed, Mediterranean-style sea requires a huge amount of land surrounding it, which needs to be at least roughly sketched out.

Limiting the scope doesn't help much either. It requires extra detail in the local area, and you still need at least some notion of what is "out there" in the wilder world. (Incidentally, for a fine example of a localised campaign, I would suggest the old ICE Robin Hood book, one of the old dual-statted Hero and Rolemaster Campaign Classics series. The "Hero" stats would need to be carefully reviewed and revised, of course, since they are actually 1st Edition Fantasy Hero stats, IIRC.)

Anyway, what kind of map styles have people used in the past, and what has worked best?

[Basil]

Portolan (http://www.mundi.net/locus/locus_003/) charts used a gazillion lines, to give compass headings from port to port, but that's different from what I was doing, or what you're describing. To be honest, the lines are there as an artistic invention, nothing more. Rhumblines radiate from the points of a compass rose, but I imagine they're only useful on particular projections. I'll have to do some research.

Keith "form over function in this case" Curtis

Actually, Portolan charts are what I was thinking of. The text in the link you give is wrong, where it says "Lines connected important destinations across the sea, while the land areas were left blank. Thus, on a portolan chart seaside cities look like stars, with lines radiating from them to show the compass headings for various destinations."

As you can see in the large copy of the map (http://www.mundi.net/locus/locus_003/portolan.html), the lines eminate not from port cities but from various points chosen for their usefulness (many near major ports, it's true), and point north, south, etc., etc.: they "box the compass" by using every one of the 32 "points" that mariners steered by through the 19th century (the use of degrees wasn't widespread in maritime use until the 20th century). As a close look will demonstrate, there are 32 lines (alternating red and gray) coming from every one of the "stars."

BTW, as is common on Portolans, there are two lines from each "star" that connect to other "stars," forming (at least in this case) a "cycle" that goes around the edges of the map and connects all the "stars."

Now obviously doing something like that on your map would have made it way too complicated looking. However, I thought I'd point out for whatever it's worth that I know of no maps with the full circle divided into 72 pieces, esp. with each 9th line (aka 1/8 of a circle) accented.

Still, if everyone's satisfied, no problem. ;)

[keithcurtis]

Yeah, the bit about connecting to port cities did look dubious considering the map sample on the page.
As for the number of lines on the map above. As I said, it was an artistic device. I think I chose to utilize as many lines as I did simply so that some would appear at the far side of the map. If I limited it to a more realistic number, the lines on the far side wolud appear confusing and unconnected. As it is, some of them appear to have dropped out at that resolution anyway.

Keith "no good deed" Curtis

[Eosin]

I don't really want to use a modern style map. They wouldn't exist in the setting, and they don't contain any information that I would want to know about. Then again, there are some very old maps that come close to a "modern" style. So I'm kind of vacillating.

It varies by what you want and need. I find that maps designed to show the "world" are much more useful to me than maps that are "real." I need to know how far and what obstructions are required to get from point A to point B; I also need to be able to accurately determine watersheds, prevailing winds, and climatology. As a publisher (well, the maps are for public consumption...), the maps need to be attractive and have some style. Eye candy gets the wallet pulled out as much as solid design work.

As an aside, I use stuff like USGS data to design my maps ~ this is what they come out like when I do it.

http://www.pencil-pushers.net/images/3PMiddeaLow Res.jpg


The oddball part for me ~ I don't really care for my maps. They are too exact and not nearly artsy enough. They are detailed and they are accurate but sorta ho hum.

[assault]

I need to know how far and what obstructions are required to get from point A to point B; I also need to be able to accurately determine watersheds, prevailing winds, and climatology.

You don't need "realistic" maps for the first. There's usually only one or two ways to get from A to B. You follow the same roads, or sail the same course, as everybody else. Or you can go around the back way, but that's slower...

The weather stuff is a bit more serious, but you really only have to know this stuff once. In any case, science has no place in a world that was created by ghodz.

That applies to economics, too. While it's nice to know that your cities are in places that make sense, how big armies can be, and how much cash your PCs' estates generate, you don't really need to micro-detail the whole world.


The oddball part for me ~ I don't really care for my maps. They are too exact and not nearly artsy enough. They are detailed and they are accurate but sorta ho hum.

Yeah. I'm inclined to go artsier. While I might have to resort to a "realistic" GM's map, the only things players would see would be either "things drawn by monks" or "things drawn by working ship's captains". Or detailed local maps, where appropriate.

Incidentally, on the map you posted: I was struck by how few forests there were. Was this intentional?

[Basil]

Yeah, the bit about connecting to port cities did look dubious considering the map sample on the page.
As for the number of lines on the map above. As I said, it was an artistic device. I think I chose to utilize as many lines as I did simply so that some would appear at the far side of the map. If I limited it to a more realistic number, the lines on the far side wolud appear confusing and unconnected. As it is, some of them appear to have dropped out at that resolution anyway.

Keith "no good deed" Curtis
Ah, I see. OK, for artisticness's sake, one can put in as many (or few) lines as wanted. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Eosin answered this to some degree, but I might be able to elaborate. The base map (most of the non-textual parts) were done in PhotoShop in a variety of layers. Some of the things you see are little tricks with layer effects, others are straight out painting. The mountains, for instance, are painted entirely by hand. There is a little work with the stamp tool, but that's just the starting point. The layers are kept for future editing.
The entire map is placed in Adobe Illustrator for labeling, cropping, outlines and borders and such. Illustrator is far superior for typography. On some maps with custom painted symbols, I will place these in Illustrator too. This is only one possible approach, and I often use different combinations for maps, depending on the style I'm trying to achieve. Here's a page (http://home.comcast.net/%7eKeithCurtisDesign/Map_Samples/) I put together for Empty Room Studios, but I use it for my own self-promotion as well.
Oh, and good comment about the use of layers. It's critical in good planning and editing.


Keith "Thanks for all the nice comments, folks" Curtis


I didnt realize you had done any work on the Worfinal map. As it happens, we resumed the San'Dora campaign on Sunday, and I'll be in touch about more work. We can settle accounts on the Worfinal map if we didnt already.

[Killer Shrike]

Love the map Eosin.

Lumbering Ox: The radiating compass rose is an important thematic element and is very striking. To remove it would be a mistake IMO.

[Hierax]

Another great map. The only thing that bugs me is the Last Dominino Logo near the bottom right corner covering up some hills. If you could find a way to work it into the Legend part on the other side of the map (maybe by making the symbols all one column) then it wouldn't impede the functionaility of the map. Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine but if there is a logo or somesuch on a map covering something up that is an area that someone will want to go.

Also, since you are doing .pdfs you might want to take a tip from the Oone (sp?) maps (see rpgnow they even have a free sample IIRC) that let you turn on and off layers in the .pdf itself so you can have a scale grid (why not one of squares and one of hexes), with names or without names (or names in different languages), roads, political borders, etc. Sure, it's a lot of work but gives a lot of value added by making one map effectively into several.

Anyway, good job guys -- keep the great Fantasy Hero stuff coming!

[Eosin]

I might have to look into that whole laying PDF thing. I will be the first to admit that most of this is new to me.

[Lumbering Ox]

Love the map Eosin.

Lumbering Ox: The radiating compass rose is an important thematic element and is very striking. To remove it would be a mistake IMO.


I withdraw my comment. I look at things from a modern map perspective, of course there are other goals which can be more important.