The Stagnant RPG marketplace

[Blue]

It's an age-old topic. But as I teach new players to play hero it's something that has come back to mind.

I'd like to start by saying that it's scary how much people know about the system here. I've found these boards both helpful and intimidating. If I offer a question I found out one of two things: There are at least three other ways of doing things that I hadn't thought of yet, - or - My initial reasoning was faulty due to a rule I'd forgotten or never knew. At least it forces me to look up as much in the FAQ and Errata as I can before I post a question.

Now the topic I wanted to discuss is the difficulty of the system.

Hero, like *all* rpgs, is a victim of it's own success. Have you seen 1st edition? Everybody has a flat EB, Killing Attack, or Drain with maybe a focus, and that's it. With wanting to do more things comes more rules. The first ed. is ridiculously small. As I'm teaching my veteran players how to play the system for either the first time or simply the first time in over a decade, I'm seeing just how steep the learning curve is and that I am lucky to at least be the beneficiary of having played the game intensively a long time ago because I have a foundation on which to work.

The problem as I see it:

More players buying the system = more rules questions.
More rules questions = more rules, errata, and FAQs.
More rules = thicker books and a far, far steeper learning curve.
Steeper learning curve = fewer new players

I know that in my current situation, with players who do not know the game, if I didn't already have a basis in the system and I wanted to run a superhero game I'd be more likely to pick up something that *looks* simpler than big ol' FREd.

Do you see a way around this problem? Fuzion *may* have been an attempt at this (and one that seems to have irritated everyone here). What do we do to encourage people into the game, and particularly THIS game [Hero]?

[BlackSword]

As a new player I was actually brought in by the excellent material. Specifically Star Hero. I have been looking for a good scifi game for quite a while and I saw Star Hero and another scifi book (DragonStar I think) at my FLGS. I looked up reviews of both on RPG.net and Star Hero seemed far and away to be the better buy. I bought it, read it and realized I need the main book. The system looked fanatastic so I didn't mind shelling out the money to get FREd. I read through it and realized the best way to learn the system would be to play it, so I posted here looking for a group and found one.

So that's my testimonial (can I get an amen brothers?). While the learning curve is steep, the biggest selling point is the completeness of the system. Yes it is rules heavy, but it covers everything, and the rules can be pared down(or optional rules added) as needed.

Also, the excellent supplements. I am amazed by the price and quality of all the products currently for sale. If you read the reviews on RPG.net, all of the substance ratings are 5. If you buy Star Hero, you can run any scifi game you want, and its complete enough that it can be used for another system. From the sounds of the Fanatasy Hero book, it will be very similar in terms of completeness for that genre.

[sbarron]

Amen

[zornwil]

This is a pretty valid topic, one that I think isn't so much about HERO (though it applies especially well to HERO) but rather the whole industry. AD&D/d20 and most RPGs now seem rather rules-heavy (remember the old day when you'd get something that really only had 10-20 substantive pages of rules?). I believe part of the "bleed" from F2F RPGs to online and computer gaming is that learning curve. I think the idea of having "rules light" versions of games is helpful. But it's also a societal issue and a desire of people to pick up games that are "self-teaching" or otherwise more in sync with the tools today's younger people are both adept at and need to gain more skill at for the workplace.

[Lord Liaden]

This topic often comes up in different venues. :) There are quite a few current HERO players who were initially intimidated by the bulk of the system rules, but eventually were either drawn in by veterans who were playing the game and could show them the ropes, or finally decided to wade into the rulebook and were able to see the underlying coherence of the system. Other people were immediately drawn to the versatility, completeness and "crunchiness" of HERO, because they enjoy that type of game.

Almost everyone here agrees that a slimmed-down "entry level" version of the rules, concentrating on the basic concepts and most common options, would be very useful to ease newbies into HERO gaming. Steve Long has come to agree with that view and has promised to write such a work, tentatively called the HERO System Sidekick (his suggestion ;) ), probably as a free downloadable PDF. Unfortunately, Steve's schedule has left him no chance to work on it, and he's stated that he wants to write it himself because of the depth of system knowledge that would be required. So there's no telling when it will happen, but we do have a commitment from the man himself. :cool:

[Toadmaster]

Personnally I think its the size of FRED that makes it so intimidating, 1st Ed Champions is basically still in there, its just that now Champions 2, 3, Espionage, FH, DI, JI are also tucked in plus you have years of modifications. But if you boil it down to the basics (OCV, DCV, 11-, basic powers, Adv and Lims etc) its still pretty simple but the addition of all the extras makes one feel the need to use all of it. If you are starting out with new players I'd suggest you keep the powers fairly simple and then add in more as skill increases or character concept requires. I've been playing HERO since the beginning and I regularly ask questions I could of looked up but forgot it was dealt with in the book.

If you look at gaming since the 1970's the rules light vs rules heavy and cinematic vs realistic has waxed and waned over the years, I remember when I thought D&D was simple, now I'm lost going through the d20 rules. Than there were those great nearly unplayable games like Aftermath and Space Opera with rules apparantly written for maximum complexity and minimum payoff (although I'll admit that Aftermath was a favorite of mine for some time) and the grandmaster of complex Phoenix Command (although the complexity payed off if you had the patience). I've been buying a number of old RPG's on ebay recently and its been fun sorting through the rules and watching how the trends came and went and occasionally finding some little bit of brilliance hidden away that somehow went unnoticed before.

[TheEmerged]

RE: d20's "Complexity". Sorry for the scare quotes, I couldn't say that with a straight face.

Anyway, d20 itself is very simple. It's the exceptions that bite you in the butt...

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Blue

Fuzion *may* have been an attempt at this (and one that seems to have irritated everyone here).

INFIDEL!!!!

Who dares utter the name which may not be mentioned in the sake of all that is Fred?!

BLAS-PHEEEEMER!!!!

:D

[Snarf]

I think the best thing to help people get started would be bunch more example powers, characters, vehicles, and equipment of all genres, as a book or free pdf.

[Bartman]

I think Sidekick is desperately needed. And frankly now that Steve is done with Fantasy Hero, I would suggest that it should probably be the highest priority. I wrote my own years ago. Basically I took the Hero 4th Edition Rulebook PDF and cut it down to 30-40 pages. Due to copyright, I would never think of making it publicly available. But when I have introduced new players to the system it has been a godsend.

[Captain Obvious]

I would think that a series of Hero mini-games would be a good thing for new players. Basically, these would have the basic rules and a small cross-section of the powers.

An example might be a psychic detectives game, with the skills necessary for simple combat and investigation, along with the Mental Powers and a handful of Advantages and Limitations for them.

Another example might be a star-farer game, with a selection of Powers that could represent alien racial powers, and a few high tech applications.

As new players get used to the basics with these games, and then realize that FREd has even more cool stuff they can do (you mean my psychic detective could develop pyrokinesis?), the learning curve isn't nearly so steep or scary.

[Blue]

I think that conceptually it's an easy combat system. Where Hero seems to trip up new players is character creation. The most common mistakes I see involve character math. Things like trying to subtract the total limitation from the total advantage, not including the base "1" when doing the computations ("How come a +1/2 advantage saved me points?").

Any other criticisms are not singular to hero. Things like having to read through and understand many powers/skills/perks/talents (In other games it's Spells, Skills, Feats and what-have-ya.). And a good GM is needed to prevent major holes in the character ("You don't have any resistant defeshe", "You're character is going to have a lot of problems with seeing in the dark", "A 6D6K is way too big for this campaign"). And then there's the matter of not understanding how to achieve the effect you want by using the building blocks assigned to you ("How do I do all those cool things spiderman does with his webshooters? Seems like one power, why do I have to buy all of them seperate?")

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by BlackSword
So that's my testimonial (can I get an amen brothers?). While the learning curve is steep, the biggest selling point is the completeness of the system. Yes it is rules heavy, but it covers everything, and the rules can be pared down(or optional rules added) as needed.


Amen brother.

BTW, half my family on my dads side lives in St Charles, "Misery" (as my Dad calls it); both his sisters and most of thier many children (all but 1 daughters -- I was the only son of an only son of an only son of an only son -- then my brother came along and ruined it ;) ). Know any Medlocks or Potters? :)

[Killer Shrike]

I dunno. Me, the day I picked up the BBB all those years ago and flipped through it I was like "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! --- FINALLY!"

And boy did I screw up my initial attempts to run it that 1st summer between school years. Looking back on it, the characters were way overpowered, and several key rules interpretations were way off base or missing completely. But we got the basic idea down. Spend points, make powers, apply multipliers, apply divisors. Roll 3d6. Hit low hurt high. Post Segment 12 Recovery = happy time. We had fun.

My fellow gamers were ambivalent about it all. Why not play MSH Advanced for Supers, AD&D 2e for fantasy, Star Frontiers for space, Gamma World for post apoc, Shadowrun for (kinda) cyberpunk, Top Secret/SI for espionage, etc etc. Simpletons that they were, they didnt see the potential of an "everything" system ;) . Then WW entered the picture, and that was the last time I played Champs with that group; VtM consumed the rest of high school and then I split town. I introduced new groups to the HERO System as I went and ran many different genre's in many different campaigns. Players came and went. Some liked the system, others were ambivalent. Some were vets, most were new to the system. Some really took to it, most were content to let the "gear-heads" like me figure it all out. If I werent running the game, Im sure that 9 out 10 of the 50+ players I've had im my HEROs games over the years would not play the HERO System if someone else knowledgable about the system werent running the game. The other 1 out of 10 are converts, but only 2 of them GMd thier own HERO games that I know of (and I played in both).

The more I played the better I got at it, naturally, but 12 years of playing the HERO System off and on as my personal favorite/primary system, I still dont know it all, make mistakes, have to make spot judgements in play and then later look it up to discover I was wrong. I probably average around a 90% correctness. You'd think after all this time such mistakes would be a thing of the past; other games are much easier to master generally IMO; but the complexity of the HERO System and the odd ball situations that come up are staggering in thier variations.


I guess the point Im trying to make is that some people are going to be attracted by the complexity, and most arent. If the HERO System were simplified it might attract more players, but on the other hand, the fullness of its design precepts is a large part of what makes it special. Why play a watered down version of HEROs instead of just picking a "set piece" RPG where the rules and the setting are conjoined, or d20?

(I kind of think of d20 as The Universal Game System for Dummies -- and I mean that in the vein of the book series wherein complex concepts are 'dumbed down' for the masses, and not as an insult -- Ive played d20, and it has its uses)

[Lord Liaden]

Killer Shrike, that's eloquently expressed; I'm sure a lot of us here can recognize some of our own experiences in your comments.

I for one would never expect a "watered-down" version of the HERO System to replace the main book. That completely misses the point of a complete flexible system. I'd just like something to help newcomers get past the initial reaction of looking at the bulk of FREd and going, "Am I supposed to read this book or club seals with it?!" ;)

[Killer Shrike]

Dont get me wrong, a primer would be nice. :)

I was talking more about simplifying the main rules being a self defeating task.

[GreyGuardian]

I find hero to be MUCH easier to understand and follow than D20 stuff. The d20 stuff reminds me of the old DOS operating system... lots of unrelated facts you need to remember to get anything done. I really like that 5th edition standardized the way things work, e.g. senses.

[TheEmerged]

RE: "Watered Down". I disagree that Sidekick would necessarily represent a watering down of HERO. You could easily pair many of the power constructs down -- for example, Entangle & Force Wall are almost the same power.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by GreyGuardian
I find hero to be MUCH easier to understand and follow than D20 stuff. The d20 stuff reminds me of the old DOS operating system... lots of unrelated facts you need to remember to get anything done. I really like that 5th edition standardized the way things work, e.g. senses.

Having just gotten into (trying out) M&M - AMEN!

Of course part of M&M's problem is they're also 1st edition of the particular d20 variant (and it's a significant variation btw) and as such there's a number of things that need to be clarified/fine-tuned, even with the errata out now.

[BlackSword]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Amen brother.

BTW, half my family on my dads side lives in St Charles, "Misery" (as my Dad calls it); both his sisters and most of thier many children (all but 1 daughters -- I was the only son of an only son of an only son of an only son -- then my brother came along and ruined it ;) ). Know any Medlocks or Potters? :)
It is misery, tonight was our first 'summer storm,' for those unfamilar a true summer storm includes (but is not limited to) lightning, rain, hail, and a tornado warning. By rain I do not mean that little drizzle Seattle calls rain (lived there for two years I know), I mean 6 or more inches in an hour. Enough to flood streets that are not at the bottom of a hill.

I agree that the basic rule system for resolving anything is quite straightforward, building the character is a major stumbling block. This is the hard part to simplify, but I think books like USPDB, bestiary, and vehicle guides all help to build a toolkit you can take things from and learn. I know several people have complained about the fact that USPDB shows simple variations (to add 1d6 damage add 5 active points, don't quote this example), but it helps newbies look at it and see exactly how a power is built and varied.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by BlackSword
By rain I do not mean that little drizzle Seattle calls rain (lived there for two years I know...

Indeed?

Its clear you weren't here long enough to pass yourself off as a native.

Natives call it Sunshine.

[BlackSword]

Originally posted by D-Man
Indeed?

Its clear you weren't here long enough to pass yourself off as a native.

Natives call it Sunshine.
No, fortuntaly 'Seattle Native' doesn't come close to describing me. I enjoyed the mountains more than the city. But in the end I'm a good ole midwest boy. I was in a few (very few) bad rain storms, but they were nothing compared to Missouri. Its interesting that people complain about Seattle being wet, the average rainfall in St. Louis and Seattle is about the same, but Seattle gets its rain over 9 months, St. Louis gets its rainfall in about 9 days, the days are just spread across the year.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Dont get me wrong, a primer would be nice. :)

I was talking more about simplifying the main rules being a self defeating task.

I just started a D&D game with a friend of mine at a gaming center and I had made a comment about running a Hero game. His response was, "EEK! A system that needs a calculator to make a character." I then looked down at my D&D character sheet. Let's see, 4x 3rd level of skills, plut the intitial 4x4, and I get a +1 on all saves for my Halfling, plus a + 2 for fear alone, and my hearing goes up by one but I can only have 7 points, with the 1 is an 8. And Use Ropes is one of my primary skills, but I have to pay double for a secondary and which are ones I can't get at all???

A friend of mine helped to create a massive 3MB Excel spreadsheet that will do all the calculations for you needed to create a D&D 3E character.

So explain to me how Hero is the only math intensive/character generation from hell game again??? :)

[Captain Obvious]

Did you point this out to your friend?

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious
Did you point this out to your friend?

Isn't it obvious, captain? :)

Yup. He just shrugged and we went back to making our characters.

I feel that D&D has more 'variables' than Hero has. Sure there are LOADS of modifiers and limitations in Hero but they are all of the 1/4 1/2 3/4, etc. variety. D&D is, well, rather random. Okey, now a spellcaster can specialize in one school but needs to remove two, unless he is an illusionist where he can remove one particular school or two other schools. But a Gnome character will cancel this out. EEEK!

[TheEmerged]

Actually, I think the problem in D&D is that they lack "standards", especially in the "condition causing" spell selection. I never appreciated this problem until I saw Bruce Cordell's tortured attempt to create them in Tome & Blood. Some of the 1st level examples are just the worst-case-scenarios (I will never understand Charm Person as a first level spell).

[Blue]

Standards are definitely an issue. If you look at the feats designed in the book then compre them to ones made for 3e licensed supplements (Including ones made by game designer Monte Cook himself) the non-standard ones are way more useful in many cases.

I find it funny that it's almost like Monte decided later that he'd made the game too restrictive and went wild with his own campaigns or something.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Blue
I find it funny that it's almost like Monte decided later that he'd made the game too restrictive and went wild with his own campaigns or something.

Also known as "MTG Syndrome", being so worried about making sure something isn't overpowered that you forget to make it viable/worth the cost.

[Celtic Cowboy]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
A friend of mine helped to create a massive 3MB Excel spreadsheet that will do all the calculations for you needed to create a D&D 3E character.

So explain to me how Hero is the only math intensive/character generation from hell game again??? :)

:) One member of our group is running off a high-level 3e Spelljammer short run campaign and had us run up 15th level characters (wanted to play with all the extra feats and prestige classes).

It cracked me up once I got into it, I needed to dig out the character generator and then just stuck to a prime class and stock feats. Too much work to cross reference and add up everthing else for a short term campaign to be digging into all the optional stuff.

That's pretty much when my "HERO characters take longer than anything else to design" thoughts totally vaporized.

Mark

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
I feel that D&D has more 'variables' than Hero has. Sure there are LOADS of modifiers and limitations in Hero but they are all of the 1/4 1/2 3/4, etc. variety. D&D is, well, rather random. Okey, now a spellcaster can specialize in one school but needs to remove two, unless he is an illusionist where he can remove one particular school or two other schools. But a Gnome character will cancel this out. EEEK!

One of my gripes with AD&D 2nd Ed was not so much the complexity of these kind of rules but the fact that the meat of them was buried in the middle of long paragraphs of mostly descriptive text. Ease of reference was not a strong point. I don't know whether this is a problem with 3e.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos
One of my gripes with AD&D 2nd Ed was not so much the complexity of these kind of rules but the fact that the meat of them was buried in the middle of long paragraphs of mostly descriptive text. Ease of reference was not a strong point. I don't know whether this is a problem with 3e.

Sometimes, it still is. Two examples follow.

1> The metapsionics cap in the Psionic Handbook is, by only a slight exaggeration, the most important balance rule in the book. If you're unaware of it or don't understand it, psionics looks *really* broken. Where is this rule described? The second paragraph of page 23, in the feats section. Sounds like the obvious place for it, you say? It's amazing how often someone comes to the D&D psionic board without knowledge of it.

2> The imfamous "within". That single word has probably caused more confusion in how Attacks of Opportunity are supposed to be handled than everything else combined.

[Mark Taylor]

Ease of reference is a major factor for me in how I will judge the quality of an RPG manual. Few GMs' system knowledge is perfect, especially when they are running a new system for the first few times, and there is nothing worse than having to pour through dense paragraphs of text to find that obscure yet important rule that you know is there *somewhere*. A bit of thought put into how rules are laid out and presented can make a huge difference in this area.

[Captain Obvious]

I usually make a quick reference page for all the common things like that that I might want to look up. I usually also put in all the important tables, like bonuses and penalties to Stealth for example.

Of course, I playing a new system, I usually have to get burned several times before I figure out the hard-to-find-but-important rules....

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
So explain to me how Hero is the only math intensive/character generation from hell game again??? :) I can do +1 and x4 in my head. I can't do 37 times 1 and three quarters, divided by one a quarter.

[Blue]

Funny thing is, you can after a while ;) but then that's true of most systems. Reptition breeds familiarity.

[starblaze]

Originally posted by BlackSword
No, fortuntaly 'Seattle Native' doesn't come close to describing me. I enjoyed the mountains more than the city. But in the end I'm a good ole midwest boy. I was in a few (very few) bad rain storms, but they were nothing compared to Missouri. Its interesting that people complain about Seattle being wet, the average rainfall in St. Louis and Seattle is about the same, but Seattle gets its rain over 9 months, St. Louis gets its rainfall in about 9 days, the days are just spread across the year.

I was born and raised in Missouri and we usually call it coin toss weather when it comes down to raining or not.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Weather. We call it "Wait 5 Minutes" 'round Cincinnati way in the springtime. The sun is shining? Wait 5 minutes, it'll be a downpour. Hot? You'll be turning your heat on before nightfall.

[Tim]

Originally posted by starblaze
I was born and raised in Missouri and we usually call it coin toss weather when it comes down to raining or not.

Born, Raised, and still living in Misery. (Local nickname) The local region is called SwampEast MO. (South East)

If the humidy drops below 80% in the Spring and Summer we consider it dry.
Never heard it called coin toss weatehr. but it sure as Arkansas fits (didn't want to say H*** on a family board so picked the closest thing.) :)

[BlackSword]

Yeah I got caught leaving my windows down on my car because it was about 80 out. Walk out and my seats are soaking wet. That weekend I decided to let my car out and dry out. I rolled down the windows because it was sunny, walked inside, looked out and it was raining. By the time I got the windows up it was sunny again. I don't understand why weather.com bothers to put up the 10 day forecast for the midwest, it changes in five minutes.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Tim
Born, Raised, and still living in Misery. (Local nickname) The local region is called SwampEast MO. (South East)

If the humidy drops below 80% in the Spring and Summer we consider it dry.
Never heard it called coin toss weatehr. but it sure as Arkansas fits (didn't want to say H*** on a family board so picked the closest thing.) :) I love Arkansas. I love it so much I chose to be born there. First Rush Limbaugh has to bash my State, now Tim. The thing that confuses me is the stereotypes of Arkansas considering the vastly different feel of the various regions in the State. Anyone from the Ozarks in Arkansas has much more in common with Missourians from the Ozarks than they do with people along the Mississippi.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
I can do +1 and x4 in my head. I can't do 37 times 1 and three quarters, divided by one a quarter. Well, it's simple, break up the operation: 37 x 1.75 = then take that number and divide by 1.25 - or you can just use a calculator. ;)

[Tim]

Originally posted by Agent X
I love Arkansas. I love it so much I chose to be born there. First Rush Limbaugh has to bash my State, now Tim. The thing that confuses me is the stereotypes of Arkansas considering the vastly different feel of the various regions in the State. Anyone from the Ozarks in Arkansas has much more in common with Missourians from the Ozarks than they do with people along the Mississippi.

Arkansas bashing is a widely practiced hobby here. If fact, state legends says that the reason Missouri has a bootheel is that a lady who owned a large plantation in the bootheel wanted to be part of Missouri rather than left in the Arkansas territory, because it was too dirty and diesease infested there. :D

I've driven to Memphis many a time, and the only way you can tell the difference is that the shoulders of the Interstate is a different color in Arkansas. (Use a different chatt maybe?)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Tim
Arkansas bashing is a widely practiced hobby here. If fact, state legends says that the reason Missouri has a bootheel is that a lady who owned a large plantation in the bootheel wanted to be part of Missouri rather than left in the Arkansas territory, because it was too dirty and diesease infested there. :D

I've driven to Memphis many a time, and the only way you can tell the difference is that the shoulders of the Interstate is a different color in Arkansas. (Use a different chatt maybe?) There is a great deal of Arkansas bashing in Oklahoma as well. The bewildering thing about it is that there isn't much of a difference between the two.

Being an Air Force Brat and moving around so much, I don't get the regional bashing thing too much. I see far more aspects in common than different, overseas in within the States. Granted, Arkansas, has the noisome problem with chicken plants but I am sure I would find something that stinks in Missouri. :)

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
I can do +1 and x4 in my head. I can't do 37 times 1 and three quarters, divided by one a quarter.

Valid point.

Guess it would be cool if FReD came with one of those cheap, promo calculators. Heh, there you go DoJ - a way to make a lil extra money with merchandizing. Your own nifty Hero Games calculator. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Tim
From Cape Girardeau, MO

Huh, my dad was from the Cape Girardeau area; he was born in Advance IIRC. I was in the area a few years ago to bury my Grandmother (family plot is there). Pretty dismal area :(; Nice people though....

[Tim]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Huh, my dad was from the Cape Girardeau area; he was born in Advance IIRC. I was in the area a few years ago to bury my Grandmother (family plot is there). Pretty dismal area :(; Nice people though....

I'm not fond of the area south of here to much either. To Flat. Pretty country North and West of Cape though.
Yeah, we're a small town trying to grow into a good sized city. Sometimes I think we're keeping the wrong small town additudes though. We try to make everyone welcome.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Tim
I'm not fond of the area south of here to much either. To Flat. Pretty country North and West of Cape though.
Yeah, we're a small town trying to grow into a good sized city. Sometimes I think we're keeping the wrong small town additudes though. We try to make everyone welcome. Yeah, Ill probably be back in the area in a year or two; pop's getting pretty close to kicking the bucket. Been fighting a downward spiral after a major stroke a couple of years ago. The big question is whether Ill be buried there; the family owns the plot and there are Hastings buried there going way back, but Ive only been there twice for my grandparent's funerals (once when I was too young to remember). My dad was the only son of an only son of an only son, so him, I and my brother are the only 3 males left; my dad's sisters will be buried elsewhere with thier husbands.

My mom's family plot is in Thomasville Georgia; the Barwicks have many generations planted there and my mom wants to be buried there with her family. Ive got a plot put aside for me there as well.

That gives you an idea of how screwed up my family is; when I was born I had 3 life insurance policies and 2 cemetary plots already lined up, but no college fund ;) Kind of depressing really.

[Tim]

Too Bad about your Dad. I can empathize as my Dad has seriously deteriorated in the last few years. Hopefully he'll last for a good while yet.

Just wish your trip over here wasn't going to be for such a depressing reason.

If you ever do find yourself coming this way, give me a holler and maybe we could do a one shot or something.

TimS.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Tim
Too Bad about your Dad. I can empathize as my Dad has seriously deteriorated in the last few years. Hopefully he'll last for a good while yet.

Just wish your trip over here wasn't going to be for such a depressing reason.

If you ever do find yourself coming this way, give me a holler and maybe we could do a one shot or something.

TimS. Thanx; all things are possible. Hope your dad gets better :(