Blocking Big Objects

[nexus]

Two bricks square off. One of them rips a light post out of the ground and tries to play Babe Ruth on the other, using the lightpost (or bus, big hunk of the street, whatever) as an AOE attack. The other brick opts to use their oen tremendous strength to Block the attack, which isn't technically possible with AOE attacks. I'd call this sort of thing a GM's call but if you wanted to "legally" write it up. How would you pull it off?

[sbarron]

Two bricks square off. One of them rips a light post out of the ground and tries to play Babe Ruth on the other, using the lightpost (or bus, big hunk of the street, whatever) as an AOE attack. The other brick opts to use their oen tremendous strength to Block the attack, which isn't technically possible with AOE attacks. I'd call this sort of thing a GM's call but if you wanted to "legally" write it up. How would you pull it off?Perfect Block: 15 PD Forcewall, AOE Hex only. SFX is just a block.

I know of this power from Broken Kingdoms. I don't know if HERO published it anywhere else. This is how I'd do it, though. I don't have my books at work or I'd give you a more complete build.

[bigdamnhero]

I think I'd keep it as GM's discretion based on sfx of the attack, possibly requiring a "Brick Tricks" Skill roll. Doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would come up enough to justify a rule of its own.

[BNakagawa]

against an improvised focus, you could always break it, spoiling the attempted attack.

granted, this requires you to have an action held...

[David Johnston]

Well the rules say "Unlike normal area of effect attacks targets can often Dodge this kind of attack" so it would be reasonable to say they can Block it as well, if they are strong enough, although the OCV bonus for using a big weapon may make it less than a smart choice.

[Blue]

YES, I'd allow the block. My alternative suggestion is this:

VILLAIN A picks up a big section of the road and swings it.
HERO B defaults to grab. His OCV would be against the villains OCV (because the villain is in the process of attacking).

If HERO B had to abort to the grab (since in this case it would be a defensive action), I'd allow him to subract his STR Damage Class from the attack and only suffer the remainder.

If HERO B were using a reserved action, I'd let him either try a contest of STR to pull the object away, do damage to it by crushing it, or maintain a full grip and contest the object every turn until someone takes it away from the other.

[Dust Raven]

Well, I'd say that it can be Blocked, just like it can be Dodged (though the SFX of the maneuver used should be appropriate for the character using it; i.e., my little dog woofy whould not be able to use her -10 STR to do a physically interposition style blocking maneuver to avoid damage from Grond's swung lamp post, but she could logically be be able to duck under or jump over it).

Of course, the FW is a neat idea as well (make it Instant and you've got yourself a neat "maneuver" like power). No need to make it AoE, as it already protects an area by default.

[Trebuchet]

Actually, I'd allow a Block based on the sfx here. A lamppost swung as a weapon isn't really an AoE attack so much as it is increased reach; i.e., Stretching. Any character could simply duck under it or use a Block maneuver to avoid getting hit. And like any object used as a weapon, a lamppost will break if the dice generated exceeds the combined DEF + BODY of the object used. I seriously doubt that's going to be enough damage to bother most super bricks anyway. Figure maybe 6d6 or 7d6 - Yawn.

Now a car is a different story... :eg:

[Alibear]

I'd agree totally, let them block or dodge the lampost.

Also you shouldn't have to be strong to block.

Strength and toughing out the attack would be one sfx but others would include
a MArtists techniqe and footwork,
a speedster just stepping out of the hex and back in after the swing,
a teleporter blinking out of the hex and back,
a morphy type letting pass through thier body with no harm being done,
etc.

[Alibear]

Another thought. If a characterhad waited he could interupt and attack the pole on the way in. Either destoying it and looking cool (Presence bonus maybe) or damaging it so badly that the pole wouldn't be able to dish out much damage.

[prestidigitator]

Another thought. If a characterhad waited he could interupt and attack the pole on the way in. Either destoying it and looking cool (Presence bonus maybe) or damaging it so badly that the pole wouldn't be able to dish out much damage.
Hmm. Then who should we ultimately find responsible for destruction of public property...? ;)

Brick A picks up car, swings at Brick B. Brick B picks up bus to Block, or gets the heck out of Dodge. What's wrong with that? :D

[Alibear]

Hmm. Then who should we ultimately find responsible for destruction of public property...? ;)

Brick A picks up car, swings at Brick B. Brick B picks up bus to Block, or gets the heck out of Dodge. What's wrong with that? :D

Sounds good to me. I take the underground to work.

[bigdamnhero]

Also you shouldn't have to be strong to block.

Strength and toughing out the attack would be one sfx but others would include
a MArtists techniqe and footwork,
a speedster just stepping out of the hex and back in after the swing,
a teleporter blinking out of the hex and back,
a morphy type letting pass through thier body with no harm being done,
etc.
With the possible exception of the last one, I'd call most of those dodges, not blocks. Block (to me) means actively stopping or deflecting an attack, which implies having enough strength to affect the weapon's swing. All the technique in the world isn't going to let Chuck Norris deflect a bus. It might help him get out of the way, but again I would call that a dodge. My $0.02.

[Jaxom]

Warning, this is a cinematic response, not simply rule-based.

I'd allow a normal block (like the dodge) which only protects the character performing the block (put those arms up and protect yourself but the general area still gets mangled)...

If you had a held action I'd allow the interrupt as mentioned above to break or grab the improvised focus which *would* protect the area.

[bigdamnhero]

OK, here's a somewhat trickier question: where would you draw the line for when a character is/isn't allowed to block such an attack? It's easy to say "a Brick can do it" but how strong do you have to be to qualify as a brick for this purpose? Is it based solely on the blocking character's STR, or compared to the attacker's STR, or what?

[Jaxom]

OK, here's a somewhat trickier question: where would you draw the line for when a character is/isn't allowed to block such an attack? It's easy to say "a Brick can do it" but how strong do you have to be to qualify as a brick for this purpose? Is it based solely on the blocking character's STR, or compared to the attacker's STR, or what?

Well, theoretically there's an easy answer... If you could easily do enough damage to destroy the object then you can block it. (Envision the Hulk standing in the middle of the ruins of the bus that just landed on him.)

The problem is that breaking things is an imperfect science in HERO. I think I would determine the DEF and BODY of the object being used and then say if you can do that many dice of damage... That's the mechanic I would use to "block".

If you were going with the held action and just grabbing the focus from your opponent then it'd boil down to contested STR (with mods) and I don't have to worry about defining anything.

[Silbeg]

against an improvised focus, you could always break it, spoiling the attempted attack.

granted, this requires you to have an action held...
I would also argue that an improvised focus would have the implied limitations of "Real Weapon" and "Can Be Blocked" (the latter only for AE stuff)...
Now, I would also allow for the fact that if the object is too heavy for the blocked to lift (with Pushed STR), he probably cannot block it (and should use Dive for Cover instead).

Also, I tend to prefer using the "Spreading STR" rules from Ultimate Brick... so every hex size of the object reduces the attackers STR damage by 1d6.

[quote=Trebuchet]Actually, I'd allow a Block based on the sfx here. A lamppost swung as a weapon isn't really an AoE attack so much as it is increased reach; i.e., Stretching. Any character could simply duck under it or use a Block maneuver to avoid getting hit. And like any object used as a weapon, a lamppost will break if the dice generated exceeds the combined DEF + BODY of the object used. I seriously doubt that's going to be enough damage to bother most super bricks anyway. Figure maybe 6d6 or 7d6 - Yawn.quote]

Good call! Hadn't actually thought of it that way with a pole... Will have to encorporate that as well... so, if you are using a long pole to just extend reach (and not gain AoE), you wouldn't probably need a STR reduction on damage.

[Blue]

You could say that if you have enough STR to lift it yourself then you could do the block, but I'd probably be more generous.

[Robyn]

Well, theoretically there's an easy answer... If you could easily do enough damage to destroy the object then you can block it. (Envision the Hulk standing in the middle of the ruins of the bus that just landed on him.)

If you wanted to not destroy the object (for instance, because it was the body of your teammate), just stop it (and you couldn't dodge because there were civilians behind you), I would let you roll damage against the object for the amount of force you could apply right away, even if you weren't strong enough to destroy it; and, either way, if the damage you rolled wouldn't have destroyed it right away, you can then translate the rest into Knockback if you brace yourself against the ground and keep making Balance rolls for every hex travelled.

Envision the anime characters who attack the giant monster, only the monster catches one of them in midair with its giant paw, then throws her at another PC who was still approaching, the second PC throws his arms out to catch her and then goes skidding back 100 feet ;)

[Dust Raven]

With the possible exception of the last one, I'd call most of those dodges, not blocks. Block (to me) means actively stopping or deflecting an attack, which implies having enough strength to affect the weapon's swing. All the technique in the world isn't going to let Chuck Norris deflect a bus. It might help him get out of the way, but again I would call that a dodge. My $0.02.

Not to derail the thread with yet another hotly debated topic, but nothing in the Block mechanic requires a character to physically stop the impact with part of his body or something he's holding. It even states specifically that the mechanic can be used to simulating physical avoidance, such as dodging (not the mechanic Dodge, but the physical act of getting out of the way). Similarly, a Dodge can work the same way, possibly simulating just standing there and having every attack (that doesn't hit his improved DCV) just bounce harmlessly off the character.

[bigdamnhero]

Not to derail the thread with yet another hotly debated topic, but nothing in the Block mechanic requires a character to physically stop the impact with part of his body or something he's holding. It even states specifically that the mechanic can be used to simulating physical avoidance, such as dodging (not the mechanic Dodge, but the physical act of getting out of the way). Similarly, a Dodge can work the same way, possibly simulating just standing there and having every attack (that doesn't hit his improved DCV) just bounce harmlessly off the character.
You're correct, of course. I was just saying that *I* would call them dodges, using the Dodge mechanic. Just me.

[Alibear]

You're correct, of course. I was just saying that *I* would call them dodges, using the Dodge mechanic. Just me.

In the Real World TM. you block by moving out of the way of the attack. If you just stand there and stick your arm up you're going to end up with a sore arm at the very least.

I seen a guy break anothers arm at a Karate competition when a guy tried to block his spinning kick by just sticking up his arm. :idjit:

Anyway the Hero system is all about special effect. You can get away with just about anything and call it whatever you like.

[David Johnston]

I'd agree totally, let them block or dodge the lampost.

Also you shouldn't have to be strong to block.

Strength and toughing out the attack would be one sfx but others would include
a MArtists techniqe and footwork,
a speedster just stepping out of the hex and back in after the swing,
a teleporter blinking out of the hex and back,
a morphy type letting pass through thier body with no harm being done,
etc.

The "step aside" kind of block wouldn't work on area effect attacks. The power uses are power uses. You shouldn't get them for free.

[Robyn]

The "step aside" kind of block wouldn't work on area effect attacks. The power uses are power uses. You shouldn't get them for free.

We get the normal movement abilities for free, they're part of the human package. If a normal Dodge or Block is possible due to the human powers that aren't really considered Powers, wouldn't special blocks be possible due to the heroic powers?

[David Johnston]

We get the normal movement abilities for free, they're part of the human package. If a normal Dodge or Block is possible due to the human powers that aren't really considered Powers, wouldn't special blocks be possible due to the heroic powers?

It doesn't matter since a normal Block isn't possible versus an area affect attack based on "normal movement abilities". You'd have to actually move out of the affected area and the mechanic for that isn't a Block.

[Alibear]

The premise is that someone swinging a big stick at you.

Are you as a Gm going to allow him to block it? Strictly by the rules you shouldn't be allowed to, you can't block an area effect attack.

However, if your GM says it okay to use a block manuever against the big stick why can Powerman block it but not Speedyboy?

[David Johnston]

Because Powerman is strong enough to deflect it.

[Alibear]

..and Speedyboy can duck under it. I don't see the difference.

[David Johnston]

The difference is that the block is taking advantage of the inherent OAF nature of improvised bludgeoning weapons. Because they are accessable, they can be blocked, just as Missile deflection works on grenades because even though the explosion can't be deflected. the focus can. But that requires the focus to be light enough to be moved by the character defending.

Or to put it another way, if the ogre doesn't swing the pole low enough that you can't duck under it, he probably missed anyway.

[Alibear]

The pole is about 9 inches thick, Imperial not Hero, and the hex is over 6 foot high.

Somewhere in that range Speedyboy can either duck under, step aside or leap over that pole.

[Alibear]

Oh, and where does it say you have to be able to move something to use the block maneuver?

Hero is a special effects driven game, anyone can block any HTH attack and call it what they want.

[David Johnston]

Hero is a design driven game. The special effects are just dressing for the design.

[Alibear]

Hero is a design driven game. The special effects are just dressing for the design.


You'll have to explain that one to me.

[David Johnston]

Suppose you design a character who has a shield that he can throw at enemies but don't get it with the focus limitation. Now, special effects say "Someone ought to be able to catch that shield or destroy it or at least wrestle it away from Captain Bermuda". But that isn't what will happen. Because he didn't get his EB as a focus, nobody can ever take the shield away from him by any means barring the use of something like a Suppress.
Now of course if his shield is actually supposed to be a physical object, that's a bad design. But the answer to that problem is to fix the design, not to ignore it and go with the special effects.

[Alibear]

That's a good example of the rules being badly applied to fit the special effect. It's the special effet which should be controlling the rules, not the other way round.

[bigdamnhero]

The pole is about 9 inches thick, Imperial not Hero, and the hex is over 6 foot high.

Somewhere in that range Speedyboy can either duck under, step aside or leap over that pole.
A better example IMO is Bricky slamming a Greyhound bus down on the hex where you're standing. If you're not strong enough to block/deflect/redirect the bus, you're going to have to get out of the way. Could you use the Block mechanics to simulate that, instead of using Dodge, DFC, or some Speedster trick (combat luck, CSLs with DCV, or whatever)? Maybe you could; I just don't get why you'd want to? :confused:

[Robyn]

That's a good example of the rules being badly applied to fit the special effect. It's the special effet which should be controlling the rules, not the other way round.

Well said. Reason from effect, not the other way around.

[prestidigitator]

Are you as a Gm going to allow him to block it? Strictly by the rules you shouldn't be allowed to, you can't block an area effect attack.
Wait a minute. "Strictly by the rules," the attack isn't necessarily an Area of Effect attack, either. It is up to the GM to decide what benefits to grant characters who pick up large objects. I think allowing such objects swung as HTH attacks to be Blocked or Grabbed can safely be left up to the GM as well. Once in, "up to the GM," land, we require some creative and dramatic interpretation already.

[Jaxom]

The pole is about 9 inches thick, Imperial not Hero, and the hex is over 6 foot high.

Somewhere in that range Speedyboy can either duck under, step aside or leap over that pole.

Sounds like a club to me, not an AE. See Bigdamnhero's post below about using a greyhound bus instead of a light-pole.

I'd have to look in more detail at the block mechanic to see whether or not there is any ruling that would affect my decision on whether or not a speedster could use it. If it entails stopping the attack on other people in the same or adjacent hexes then no way am I allowing the speedster to use block mechanics. Mostly because the argument that "I am knocking them out of the way of the same attack" strikes me as a much more complex action which is going to require something more.

[Robyn]

Mostly because the argument that "I am knocking them out of the way of the same attack" strikes me as a much more complex action which is going to require something more.

Move Through for Knockback only? You don't want to damage your friend, and you only need to give them a little push . . .

[Dust Raven]

That's a good example of the rules being badly applied to fit the special effect. It's the special effet which should be controlling the rules, not the other way round.

I would disagree only slightly. There are examples of characters in fiction that have what most of us would consider a Focus or something that can be taken away, but for some reason, they always have it with them. Even in a situation where the bad guys have caught the hero, they never bother to take it away. Examples of this are rare, but they exist. In such cases, what the hero has is not a Focus; just a Power without such Limitations.

Of course, if that's not that kind of game and both the GM and the player agree it shouldn't work like that (or even if the GM just tells the player no, that Power in this campaign shouldn't work like that), the write up of the Power should change rather than be ignored.

[Robyn]

There are examples of characters in fiction that have what most of us would consider a Focus or something that can be taken away, but for some reason, they always have it with them. Even in a situation where the bad guys have caught the hero, they never bother to take it away. Examples of this are rare, but they exist.

Rare? It took me half a second to think of someone who has this.

His name was Bond. James Bond . . . ;)

__________________
. . . and the Focus was his watch.

[Dust Raven]

Bond came to my mind instantly as well... but I've seen enough Bond films to recall enough times when he lost his gun or other gadgets or they simply didn't work right. Besides, Bond is easily a Heroic level character who isn't paying points for his equipment.

I'm thinking more of some of the pulp era heroes and a number of cartoon types who always have their trusty whatever. Boris Badenoff (sp?) from Rocky & Bulllwinkle is a fine example in that he always had one more stick of dynomite.

[prestidigitator]

Bond came to my mind instantly as well... but I've seen enough Bond films to recall enough times when he lost his gun or other gadgets or they simply didn't work right. Besides, Bond is easily a Heroic level character who isn't paying points for his equipment.
Yeah. Usually after a single use. Poor Bond never seems to be able to hold on to his equipment. I think everything but his gun is bought with one Charge. Heh.


Boris Badenoff (sp?) from Rocky & Bulllwinkle is a fine example in that he always had one more stick of dynomite.
OKAY. I think you just signalled the death of this topic. :p

[Dust Raven]

OKAY. I think you just signalled the death of this topic. :p

Oops. :o

[Alibear]

A better example IMO is Bricky slamming a Greyhound bus down on the hex where you're standing. If you're not strong enough to block/deflect/redirect the bus, you're going to have to get out of the way. Could you use the Block mechanics to simulate that, instead of using Dodge, DFC, or some Speedster trick (combat luck, CSLs with DCV, or whatever)? Maybe you could; I just don't get why you'd want to? :confused:


This isn't my example, I'm just using the existing example.

The bus which does fill the entire hex would be unblockable for everyone but Überstrong characters in my opinion.

[Alibear]

Wait a minute. "Strictly by the rules," the attack isn't necessarily an Area of Effect attack, either. It is up to the GM to decide what benefits to grant characters who pick up large objects.



Two bricks square off. One of them rips a light post out of the ground and tries to play Babe Ruth on the other, using the lightpost (or bus, big hunk of the street, whatever) as an AOE attack.

As I read the first statement, the GM had already given the green light for the AOE attack. That was my not my call to make.

Personally an object has to completely fill the hex before it is an AOE attack in my game, or it is as you say a big club.

[Alibear]

I would disagree only slightly. There are examples of characters in fiction that have what most of us would consider a Focus or something that can be taken away, but for some reason, they always have it with them. Even in a situation where the bad guys have caught the hero, they never bother to take it away. Examples of this are rare, but they exist. In such cases, what the hero has is not a Focus; just a Power without such Limitations.

Of course, if that's not that kind of game and both the GM and the player agree it shouldn't work like that (or even if the GM just tells the player no, that Power in this campaign shouldn't work like that), the write up of the Power should change rather than be ignored.
^

I was not talking about stuff from fiction. I was talking about the example given, nothing else.


Okay, I think I'm done with this thread.:o