So how does evil worship?

[Enforcer84]

My campaign world Edean has what I call the Twin Pantheon. With a single exception, there is a light side and a dark side to each deity. The "King God" for example is Althor, a noble, Arthurian style King he is worshiped by noble rulers. His opposite number is Hyrod the Tyrant. He is worshipped by not as noble rulers. Though the Pantheon is in the middle of the Truce, and won't fight one another, their churches at the very least are rivals. So does it seem odd to have Hyrod worshiped openly? It sort of has "Evil" Kingdom stamped all over it. Perhaps Hyrod's worshippers take the trappings of Althor? Would it make sense for the Twin Kings to have a single church? It's fantasy so I'm okay with a little oddness, but I'd like it to make a little sense...


How do you all run dark pantheons? I'm trying to not use the idea of an "Evil" race like Drow, Orcs, etc...but Evil Gods worshipped in the open? Hidden? Thoughts?

[Labrat]

There should be no distinction between 'evil' and 'good' worship as defined. Worship is simply giving proper respectful attention to one's diety. Religeons turn socially unacceptable by promoting unacceptance to others. Their worship in itself isn't usually 'evil' unless you start raising body count. So if you want to have 'evil worshippers', start with human sacrifice... but even then sometimes 'human sacrificees' go along willingly. If the sacrifice is willing is the worship then 'evil'?

You may open up a can of worms with this discussion, my friend. ;)

Hope this helps.

[Enforcer84]

That's cool. Thanks. I simply want some ideas. I've realized that I have a lot of work to do on the pantheon and I'm balkling a bit at how the more evil churches are going to operate. Discussion is good. I'll take the worms if I they come with usable ideas :D

[AmadanNaBriona]

A somewhat historical way to approach the idea would be to make each set of dieties worshipped primarily at the same churches/temples/etc. A number of historical religions had (heck most of them) had either evil dieties or both good and evil aspects to most of their major dieties. Traditionally you pay homage to the dark aspect or evil side mostly as a preventative measure
"Here's a nice sacrifice, Mr God of Pestilience. Please take it and leave my family alone. Amen"

The ones who embrace worship of the evil side will be the kooks, the cults, and those inclined towards "evil" acts anyway... not the guys you see at the church, at least not out in the open.

"pssst... hey Bob... after church we're gonna go out in the woods and sacrifice us a virgin. Let boys know. The password is Wombat"

[Captain Obvious]

Kings in general could worship Althor, but some cults within the overall religion might consider Hyrod worship to be an "inner mystery" of the Althor religion. Only those kings and their close relatives/priests would know of the Hyrod connection.

Another variation: Hyrod worship is kept secret, with the weakling Althor's cult used as a cover.

Variation 3: Althor represents kind, merciful leadership, while Hyrod represents regal might. Both have their good and bad aspects, but Althor's bad aspects are just weak, while Hyrod's are evil. Good kings of both leanings are celebrated for their respective virtues. Bad kings of the Althor mold are generally overthrown (and without much effort), but bad kings of Hyrod's type rule with an iron fist.

[Enforcer84]

another thing I've not considered too much is that while the Gods themselves know who is who and what is what, the mortals might not know. The Hyrod Chuch prays for strength and might, his priests tend to preach a military response to any question.
Althor is just every bit the warrior his twin is, but his chuch espouses diplomacy as well as military action...okay, this is cool
Thanks for the discussion guys, keep it up.

[OddHat]

I'm very much with AmadanNaBriona on this, but I'll add in something from my experience researching modern and historical animist religions.

Give Hyrod admirable, worshipable qualities.

Have him be the god you pray and sacrifice to in order to crush your political and military enemies. Have him be the god you turn to achieve your vengance. Associate him with goals that people want to achieve, and it will feel natural to have characters worship him.

The devout may know that Hyrod is a dark god, sacred stories may tell of men and kingdoms falling into ruin, destroyed by Hyrod's gifts, but there would still be times when even good men might turn to him.

As to the most depraved/devout of his worshipers, they'd probably form a mystery cult and keep their ceremonies hidden.

[McCoy]

More a matterof emphasis that anything else. The holy wititngs of Althor might emphasise the need to be a just ruler; of Hyrod, a strong ruler. Althor may say that you can never achieve good results through wrong actions; Hyrod may say the end justifies the means. Althor may say that the king must protect even the most helpless of his subjects; Hyrod may say that during times of national crisis, some people may need to be thrown out of the lifeboat.

And so forth.

[OddHat]

More a matterof emphasis that anything else. The holy wititngs of Althor might emphasise the need to be a just ruler; of Hyrod, a strong ruler. Althor may say that you can never achieve good results through wrong actions; Hyrod may say the end justifies the means. Althor may say that the king must protect even the most helpless of his subjects; Hyrod may say that during times of national crisis, some people may need to be thrown out of the lifeboat.

And so forth.

So, you're saying that Hyrod is an Ayn Rand Conservative?






;)

[McCoy]

So, you're saying that Hyrod is an Ayn Rand Conservative?






;)
No, I'm trying to avoid saying it! :)

But you get the idea.

Like your idea of an inner circle of the devout too,

[assault]

Check out the ancient Chinese doctrine of "Legalism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(philosophy)

This is as good a "Lawful Evil" doctrine as any. It certainly worked for the First Emperor.

In general, though, "evil" religions would be the religions of "the enemy". That is, if the Good Guys are in Upper Egypt, the patron god of Lower Egypt is likely to be identified as the god of evil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutekh

Similarly, even other branches of the same religion can be seen as "evil". Heresies are always good fun. Are they evil, or are they right?!

"Real" supernatural evil will often operate through conspiracies, often using "good" cults as a front.

Once big-E Eeevil is out proud and fighting, you are usually in deep trouble.

[Enforcer84]

Okay, so some of my Gods, the God of Disease, the Goddess of Darkness and Fear, are going to be at cult status, their temples are isolated, hidden.
The God of Victory is popular enough that the less savory aspects of his personality are easily overlooked by the masses.
The Goddess of War and Discord ...how was Ares worshiped? Did he have temples? I'm thinking she will.

oh and a list of my deities (so far) can be found here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1041536&postcount=8).

[Curufea]

I don't have evil gods, as I'm using the Norse pantheon. However - I do have a trickster god that is often regarded as evil by the orthodox church.
Loki's worship occurs on a very minor level by the orthodox church (in ceremonies to all gods, he has the smallest mention possible).
His adherents though, the very devout ones, operate in a similar manner to terrorist cells. Precisely because they are so persecuted. And also because they love making practical jokes and causing anarchy which is quite anti-orthodox and anti-government.
Chaos, disorder and tricks - also mean he doesn't really have set times of worship and holy days. Worship of Loki is basically, the bigger the trick, the more holy the worship.

[Eosin]

"Gods" are rarely, if ever, evil. They may be brutal, unsavory, or unclean but evil? That doesn't mean that segments can't classify them as "evil" - obviously they can and do.

Let's take Crowley for a minute. He didn't advocate putting virgins or babies on an alter and plunging a knife into them; he advocated "do what you want," in other words give in to your desires and let your inner "joys" out. If you want it why should you deny yourself? Why feel guilt over something? It isn't about being "crazy kinda evil," it is about acknowledging and letting your base desires reign.... it isn't about outside, it is about inside. If he can spin-doctor Satan in a positive, even appealing, light then you can do it with just about any fantasy god.

Disease? The Lord Rotgut culls the chafe from our midsts. Those who are weak or have strayed from their true nature will suffer his wrath. Those who remain true, who avoid contact with the unclean and unshriven enjoy the radiance of his gifts of health. (His monks are acetics who are in essence germ freaks).

Lord of Murder? The gods have given us all an allloted time in this world and nothing can change that. In the end we all kneel in the resplendance of the final sunset.

"We do not revel in death. We are the instrument of the gods. Had your fate been different, we would not be where we are now." Kuroth pulled Jenyttes head onto his lap. Gently he pulled her golden hair from her face. A rasping sound escaped from her blue lips. "I wanted to be here with you to ease your journey.This is my gift to you." Softly he began to sing to the dying woman in his arms. "There I see the sun...."

Their actions may be "evil" but in the minds of even the most vile people they believe what they are doing to be excusable... if not laudable.

[Robyn]

More a matterof emphasis that anything else. The holy wititngs of Althor might emphasise the need to be a just ruler; of Hyrod, a strong ruler. Althor may say that you can never achieve good results through wrong actions; Hyrod may say the end justifies the means. Althor may say that the king must protect even the most helpless of his subjects; Hyrod may say that during times of national crisis, some people may need to be thrown out of the lifeboat.

And so forth.

Hyrod may start WWYCD threads, while Althor encourages his subjects to forgo the theoretical in favor of the practical?







What?

[Eosin]

PS - there is an exception for spirits that aren't worshipped but are placated. This might be the case for people who suffer from terrible storms/floods. They don't worship lord Downpour... they do leave offerings at shrines and holy places so that he might spare them.

The vengeful lord of the seas might recieve a coin or wine thrown into the ocean before each voyage so that he will allow the ships passage....

[Nolgroth]

SNIP

Their actions may be "evil" but in the minds of even the most vile people they believe what they are doing to be excusable... if not laudable.Damn. I've hardly been active the last couple of months and I still have to spread rep around. Great post though.

[Korvar]

PS - there is an exception for spirits that aren't worshipped but are placated. This might be the case for people who suffer from terrible storms/floods. They don't worship lord Downpour... they do leave offerings at shrines and holy places so that he might spare them.

The vengeful lord of the seas might recieve a coin or wine thrown into the ocean before each voyage so that he will allow the ships passage....

Similarly, the perhaps the peasants pray to Hyrod, the God of Despots, to please not influence the King this season?

Actually, the rulers themselves may do that...

[Curufea]

I understand the Balinese have many demons requiring placating in that way. Rather than gods (either good or evil)

[Thia Halmades]

Don't forget, E84, that we have multiple examples, as was said earlier (either by Oddhat or ANB, or both) of 'evil deities' being worshipped in the open as a preventive measure. It's simple to the Hindu to 'give an offering' to the God of Disease, or to grant boons to the God of War to bring a child or loved one home safely. "Dear God of War. Please kill the other bastards instead of my son. I also offer you this suckling pig. Amen." "Dear Evil Lord Most High: I'm sorry for what I said about your sister. Please stop with the open sores and boils."

Or, if you really want to get into it, we look at the Bible. Clearly there's very little differentiation between what Satan was willing to do, and what a PO'd God was willing to do. Including, but not limited too: Flies, Blood, Boils, Cattle Disease, Locusts, Frogs, and so on. Sorry, Pesach was last month, I can't remember all 10 plagues off the top of my head. ;)

For a Fantasy Setting, i think the idea is a brilliant one, to be honest. Further, your Gods may not even necessarily be aware of their own duality; Althor and Hathor may really be Cynthar, the One God of Conflict, and have NO CLUE that he's been divided into two by the mortals below. Nor will he know what to do when he meets his two other selves and they start fighting. :D

[Blue Jogger]

How do you all run dark pantheons? I'm trying to not use the idea of an "Evil" race like Drow, Orcs, etc...but Evil Gods worshipped in the open? Hidden? Thoughts?

One of my most Evil dieties was worshipped in the open. The Goddess of Harmony. Everyone loved Harmony and would pray to her often (or at least pay homage) to give guidance, her blessing. Speak against Harmony was to go against the very core of society itself.

However.... The Goddess' lessons on tolerance and acceptance were taught, but never followed.

The lessons of peace and love were only for those who lived in Harmony, those who were not were sought out and brutally executed, for those who do not live in Harmony are doomed to destruction, however, Harmony did sometimes forgive those that truely begged forgiveness.... But, Harmony always forgave those who killed in her name.

Of course, by the time most had realized that she was actually the Goddess of Discord, it was far too late. She had maximized discord from having devoted true believers (who believed her lies), kowtowed non-believers who lied out of fear, and bitter enemies who were now considered enemies of state (Orcs, Drows, and anyone else who Harmony labelled Evil).

Now that's Evil.

[Enforcer84]

One of my most Evil dieties was worshipped in the open. The Goddess of Harmony. Everyone loved Harmony and would pray to her often (or at least pay homage) to give guidance, her blessing. Speak against Harmony was to go against the very core of society itself.

However.... The Goddess' lessons on tolerance and acceptance were taught, but never followed.

The lessons of peace and love were only for those who lived in Harmony, those who were not were sought out and brutally executed, for those who do not live in Harmony are doomed to destruction, however, Harmony did sometimes forgive those that truely begged forgiveness.... But, Harmony always forgave those who killed in her name.

Of course, by the time most had realized that she was actually the Goddess of Discord, it was far too late. She had maximized discord from having devoted true believers (who believed her lies), kowtowed non-believers who lied out of fear, and bitter enemies who were now considered enemies of state (Orcs, Drows, and anyone else who Harmony labelled Evil).

Now that's Evil.
Sneaky, I love it.

[Curufea]

Yes, there must be someway I can incorporate such an interesting and original idea. I like it.

[keithcurtis]

Politicize your gods.
By this I mean, don't stamp them as good and evil. Just make them opposites on a spectrum that does not have an absolute wright and wrong.
Althor represents fairness, equality, social justice in rulership.
Hyrod represents, strength, tradition, honor and personal sacrifice in rulership.
They are politically spun, or philosophically-spun opposites.

Democrats v. Republicans
Labor v. Management
Radicalism v. Rigidity

Spin each deitical concept into positive-sounding versions of the different view points.

A good worshipper of Althor could be revolutionary and fair.
A good worshiper of Hyrod could be a war king who needs his country to be strong to hold it against the orcs.

A poor worshipper of Althor could be weak or hedonistic.
A poor worshiper of Hyrod could be a despotic treasury-raider.

Keith "I made up the word deitical" Curtis

[McCoy]

Okay, so some of my Gods, the God of Disease, the Goddess of Darkness and Fear, are going to be at cult status, their temples are isolated, hidden.
The God of Victory is popular enough that the less savory aspects of his personality are easily overlooked by the masses.
The Goddess of War and Discord ...how was Ares worshiped? Did he have temples? I'm thinking she will.

oh and a list of my deities (so far) can be found here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1041536&postcount=8).
IIRC the temple of Aries is the best preserved one remaining in Athens.

In my old Runequest campagine players seemed to have a hard time wraping their heads around the fact that goddesses connected to the Life rune could be evil. But Mallia (goddess of disease) and Thed (mother of all Broo) both represented life unrestrained, unrestricted reproduction out of balance. But all the "civilized" temples had shrines to Mallia near those to Chalana Arroy and the local agricultural goddess (though offerings at her alter were less worship than a protection racket, attempting to bribe the goddess to keep her followers away). A childless woman, having received no miracle form the usual fertility goddesses, might be desperate enough to seek out the hidden cult of Thed.

[Enforcer84]

Exactly, Myrra's portrayal by her people is very differrent than the truth. And her worship is generally ignored elsewhere (with a notable exception).
Most of the other overtly dark gods tend towards cults, secrecy, small altars in big cities disguesed as something else. Most that have an aspect that can be seen as positive, have traditional churches and clergy. The Isolated God has a schism in his worshipers (the curse is playing out despite his slaying and absorbing his "twin).

[Inu]

Also keep in mind how much communication there is between the god and his worshippers. If there's a lot of communication, there's little to no doubt about dogma. Head priest goes 'Hey, big guy, is this what you mean by this passage in your book?' and the big guy goes 'no, you stupid, you got it wrong. THIS is what I mean' and lo, a schism is averted.

If there's not much communication, you may end up with a situation similar to the real world, where you can have a dozen different religions all worshipping the same god... and desperately trying to wipe each other out.

Also, dont' get too hung up in churches based around a single god. That's a valid model, but another valid model is that the 'church' is dedicated to all the gods. "We are the church of <insert nationality here>. We offer worship to all the gods, and we believe that Althor is the chief god and that we should worship in these particular ways." "Well, that's too bad. We're the church of <insert enemy natio here>. We believe that Althor was beaten and chained by Hyrod, and so Hyrod is our chief god and the pantheon should be worshipped in another way. Therefore, we should go to war." The former could be stated to be the 'church of Althor', but it'd be very different from a church in another nation, where Althor is also the chief god, but rules simultaneously to Hyrod.

And suddenly, you have churches with national character, instead of the continent-wide temples to each god you have in Forgotten Realms. ^_^

[Lucius]

For the best answer I can give to that question, check out the thread "Echoes of Heaven," here in the Fantasy Hero forum.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary suggests Lucius should have posted a link, but it's not like it should be hard to find.

[AmadanNaBriona]

For the best answer I can give to that question, check out the thread "Echoes of Heaven," here in the Fantasy Hero forum.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary suggests Lucius should have posted a link, but it's not like it should be hard to find.
Well, MY best answer to the thread question...

I tend to light a few candles, have a glass of mead and a good long shag :sneaky: