Marvel Universe...

[i3ullseye]

To keep the off topic chatter off here....

http://MURPG.proboards19.com/

[TechnoViking]

This is General Roleplaying forum, talking about the new Marvel Universe RPG is ok.

Has anyone checked out MURPG yet? I have looked at it some and all I can say is "Pretty Art". I still not sure about this "diceless" stone system they use. I would have to see a game played before I judge it too much.

Mike

[tesuji]

I picked it up expecting an Ok system and cool wiriting and presentation wrapped around primarily a really neat depiction and background of my most favorite and nostalgic comic universe. I was fairly anxious because i like diceless. My minimum expectation was to see a mediocre system that would result in me buying the sourcebooks for their own info sake and ignoring the game

Overall, I was far less pleased than even that. The art is nice. The system is i think a good example of many anti-diceless people's view of what diceless should be. The writing styke makes me yearn for reading HERO5 rulebook... for flavor.

The simplest way i can describe the disconnect i got all thru the book was that they seemed to take on "different for different's sake" as a design credo and to emphasize their differentedness all through the book while hardly ever showing a benefit for thatdifferentedness. The use of jargon like panel and page for round and turn is as a concept cool but in practice thrown in with the dry lifeless text merely means that every time they refer to the "end of the page" i have to stop and think about what they just said... did they mean to look down for a footnote?

Some good things were evident...

I like the rather simple notion that if you start a round out of range for your chosen attack option, then your initiative drops to "end of panel" (or so forth) to reflect the delay it takes you to close.

I also liked how they presented two detailed sample combats, showing each one twice with different decisions being made by the characters to show the results differing. (Unfortunately the two combats were ones that immediately caused me to think "man, that was a bad scenario" as they came out both very lopsided and equally unfortunately neither resembled combats i recalled from these character in the comics.)

i am sure this system and style will appeal to some but not to me. I will stick with my Marvel Saga sourcebooks.

[Armitage]

Originally posted by tesuji
Overall, I was far less pleased than even that. The art is nice. The system is i think a good example of many anti-diceless people's view of what diceless should be. The writing styke makes me yearn for reading HERO5 rulebook... for flavor.

I haven't read the actual rules, but I've read other peoples comments and some articles.
Is the task resolution system actually set up so that as long as you spend less stones than you regenerate each panel you will eventually succeed at a task, no matter how difficult it is?
Or is there a mechanic for eventually failing that I haven't seen?
e.g. picking a lock requires 30 stones of success and you regenerate 3 per panel. So regardless of skill level at lockpicking, as long as nothing interrupts you can expend 3 stones per panel and will succeed in 10 panels, no mystery or random chance involved.

[tesuji]

each task has a difficulty (how hard) and resistance (how much work)

if your total action number for a task, the measure of how good you are) is less than the difficulty, you cannot succeed.

If you are at least as good as needed, then your stones applied (work) accumulate and eventually you will succeed.

[Nato]

I'd rather save the money and go buy 15 Marvel comic books.

[i3ullseye]

Wow, i couldn't disagree more....

I HATED Diceless systems. I saw no point in them. this one really flies, and captures the feel of a comic very well. Admittedly the book needed soem reorganizing, but the production is great. the X-Men guide is crammed more full of cool stuff than ANY book i have seen yet.

And no, not 15 comics instead... more like 10... these books are really inexpensive for the quality you get.

But again, not for everyones tastes.

[Tclynch]

Yep, this is one of the FEW Supers RPGs that I am NOT going to be buying. I'll be able to pick it up in a year or so on Ebay for half off anyway. I predict that this game will go the way of all the other Marvel RPGs, into RPG oblivion....:)

[MoonHunter]

The game is of an average complexity for RPGers. The change of terms and phrasology that one of our previous posters commented on will actually make the game more accessable to non gamers. (They don't want gamers per say, they want Marvel Fans to buy it, gamers being a tiny subsection of that larger market).

The mechanics and the game works fairly well. It is the only diceless system that does not leave the players to the mercy of the GM, as the difficulty chart gives concrete examples. It is easy to play, easy to build characters (with rules that make it near impossible to painfully min-max and so simple that a first timer can build a character in about 5 minutes), and easy to run a marvel feeling campaign (unhindered by powers that can't be easily simulated).

Is the game too simple for most standard gamers, nearly. If you are a hero fan, you are pretested to like crunchy games and this one is not very crunchy. I can get my D20 friends to play this game, whereas I could never get them to play champions even with pregened characters.

Is the game perfect? No. (But name any game that is. Hero comes the closest.) Too many player characters will bulk up on the "endurance" stat, so they can do more things a turn. The flaw system is simplistic and seems almost an afterthought (which is strange considering Marvel Storytelling is based on less than perfect heroes). I know you will have to buy the splat books for the various teams to play the game properly (saw the X-men book. It has a ton of new powers, in addition to all those write ups). I am sure you could play it without them, but we all know better.

Just some thoughts

[bushido11]

I may be wrong, but a lot of people seem to be knocking on MURPG before actually trying it. I had my doubts, too, but I was really anxious to see what a diceless RPG was like (and the whole concept of Amber really didn't appeal to me). I've read through MURPG, and I (and my friends) have created characters and ran sample combats. I was surprised on how much they like the mechanics of the game. They're pretty much hardcore d20 fans and not really gaming veterans (you konw, the 20+ year gamers). The sample combat we did was basically a 2nd round using the same characters from their previous Danger Room fight using M&M. My friend actually told me, "Wow, I like this better than M&M." I was like, "holy sh--!" I like M&M a lot, and I like HERO, too (even though I'm not as familiar with it). The thing about HERO, though, is that it's too much number crunching not only during character creation, but also during combat. I know that this can be rectified with practice and continued gaming, but they're not really up to that task and the big, black book just intimidates them (and is daunting, as well). I don't have another gaming group around, and I don't like the unpredictability of dice. "Now for the final blow....oh no, I rolled a 1!" Even though Hero Points can help out with that, I like the whole concept of effort better than probability. And I think that it makes sense that if you're skilled enough to succeed at a task and it takes time, eventually you'll succeed (the whole Difficulty and Resistance deal). Also, since there's no random generator, that'll force the players to seek out those situational modifiers even more rather than having them whisper, "I hope I get a critical, I hope I get a critical."

MURPG is a simple game and it's fun. It's not meant to be universal or whatever, but I can make it work for other games and settings as well. HERO may be the champion of all RPGs, but it's just too time consuming for me. Great source material, though, and a top-notch gamer's toolkit.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by bushido11
I may be wrong, but a lot of people seem to be knocking on MURPG before actually trying it. I had my doubts, too, but I was really anxious to see what a diceless RPG was like (and the whole concept of Amber really didn't appeal to me). I've read through MURPG, and I (and my friends) have created characters and ran sample combats. I was surprised on how much they like the mechanics of the game. They're pretty much hardcore d20 fans and not really gaming veterans (you konw, the 20+ year gamers). The sample combat we did was basically a 2nd round using the same characters from their previous Danger Room fight using M&M. My friend actually told me, "Wow, I like this better than M&M." I was like, "holy sh--!" I like M&M a lot, and I like HERO, too (even though I'm not as familiar with it). The thing about HERO, though, is that it's too much number crunching not only during character creation, but also during combat. I know that this can be rectified with practice and continued gaming, but they're not really up to that task and the big, black book just intimidates them (and is daunting, as well). I don't have another gaming group around, and I don't like the unpredictability of dice. "Now for the final blow....oh no, I rolled a 1!" Even though Hero Points can help out with that, I like the whole concept of effort better than probability. And I think that it makes sense that if you're skilled enough to succeed at a task and it takes time, eventually you'll succeed (the whole Difficulty and Resistance deal). Also, since there's no random generator, that'll force the players to seek out those situational modifiers even more rather than having them whisper, "I hope I get a critical, I hope I get a critical."

MURPG is a simple game and it's fun. It's not meant to be universal or whatever, but I can make it work for other games and settings as well. HERO may be the champion of all RPGs, but it's just too time consuming for me. Great source material, though, and a top-notch gamer's toolkit. Huh? That's why buy game supplements for Hero and let someone else run the game. :)

As far as MURPG, I can't imagine diceless gaming working for me, especially the way it has been described in this thread. I have also been burned by earlier Marvel games. They don't seem to have a good take on their own characters half the time, missing routine displays of capabilites that are usually underestimated. I would be guilty of assuming that MURPG does the same. The cost of it alone is keeping me out. I see no reason to spend that much on a little content and a lot of gloss.

[MoonHunter]

The only character I have noticed might be under powered in the main book is Cyclops. He is missing skills that are intergral to the character. I will wait to see if this edition stands or his sheet changes in the X-men book.

Other than that, a friend of mine has been doing a serious review of characters and their effectiveness. He is very impressed with the write ups so far (except for Cyclops he noticed the same things). The Thing looked under powered until you factored in his melee skill. His ability to pick up huge objects and bat targets around with them is what makes him competitive with the hulk (for a few panels anyways). We believe that in play, the write ups should be fairly functional.

One thing I do like about MURPS, that you can easily create your own characters.

[CrosshairCollie]

I'm just going to assume, from what's said there, that the one game of this I played was being run by a DM who had no idea what the heck he was doing, then.

1. Our statistics were irrelevant. My 10 Dex didn't matter for dodging, just how many stones I applied.
2. Our powers didn't matter. My Light Mastery 7 didn't matter, just how many stones I applied.
3. Combat is horribly one-sided. I used all my stones and took out Sabretooth in a single shot. I don't even think the DM applied any kind of 'counter-action' to it. He who shoots first wins.

That was my experience ... the game was boring as watching paint dry on growing grass. But with what's been said here, I'm just going to blame it on the DM.

[Killer Shrike]

Ive been playing RPGs a long time now, and am something of a systems geek. Generally, I can glance at a book and figure out the basic idea behind the mechanix and get a feel for how the game plays out, what balances where, etc.

I opened the Marvel RPG and felt really old. I couldnt figure out squat at a glance. I couldnt figure out how characters stacked up. I couldnt figure out what relevance power ratings had.

I didnt read the book mind you, I just skimmed it. Thats usually enough, but I couldnt make heads or tails of this one at first glance. :(

[MoonHunter]

On the skim through, the rules made perfect sense to me.

It was only upon deep reading of the rules and the attempt to make certain difficult to make characters that I had problems understanding certain things.

However, those issues resolved upon a little bit of review.

I think part of the problem with "Gamers" and this game is that it uses a vocabulary that we are not familiar with. It is translating these novel terms, which will make the game more accessible to first time gamers and comic book converts, that is giving us issues. Once you read through and absorb the material... it is almost too simple.

[bushido11]

For CrosshairCollie:

For all of your ability and action levels, the level determines your maximum potential with that action/ability. So levels DO matter, because it determines the maximum amount of stones you can apply.

For that Sabertooth slaughter, remember that first everybody allocates their stones to their actions and once that's done, THEN the action takes place. Combat usually goes in Dex order (or Speed for speedsters). If you have to close your distance to the opponent, then you act later.

Either your DM applied no stones to defense (and probably forgot modifiers), or you really did beat Sabertooth to the punch. That takes power. Ah, and don't forget that for every 1-3 stones your attack beats the defense, you do 1 white stone of damage (I messed up one time thinking it was a 1:1 ratio).


And for Killer Shrike, this game isn't so much of a "skim and learn the rules" if you really want to grasp the concept. I had to do my nosediving into the pages in order to fully learn the rules. But the basics are this:

If your action number is less than difficulty, you can't even attempt the task (PCs don't know that, though), and...

Stones of effort vs. stones of resistance = result.

[Killer Shrike]

{Grunts}. Maybe Ill glance thru it again the next time Im at the store.

[CrosshairCollie]

Originally posted by bushido11
For CrosshairCollie:

For all of your ability and action levels, the level determines your maximum potential with that action/ability. So levels DO matter, because it determines the maximum amount of stones you can apply.

For that Sabertooth slaughter, remember that first everybody allocates their stones to their actions and once that's done, THEN the action takes place. Combat usually goes in Dex order (or Speed for speedsters). If you have to close your distance to the opponent, then you act later.

Either your DM applied no stones to defense (and probably forgot modifiers), or you really did beat Sabertooth to the punch. That takes power. Ah, and don't forget that for every 1-3 stones your attack beats the defense, you do 1 white stone of damage (I messed up one time thinking it was a 1:1 ratio).

Well, I did have a 10 Dex, so going first was right. My GM never actually told me what the rules were, so I very casually slammed all 12 or so stones I had into my Force Blast, not knowing that, apparently, wasn't legal (I had a 6? in Mastery of Light). Does sound like he didn't put anything into Sabretooth's counteraction, too.

Then again, I shouldn't be surprised ... this nimrod thinks he can skim any game system once, and then he's The Certified Expert. :confused:

[bushido11]

It happens to the best of us. Even then, people will still irk MURPG. I can't blame them; I know MURPG is no where nearly as customizable as HERO, and it may have some point balance issues (haven't encountered any of them, but it doesn't mean that they haven't appeared). But it's not chock full of rules, so I can use whatever rules it has presented as a guideline for other stuff not presented, and not have to worry about combat tracking sheets or battle maps or even rolling dice and doing multiplication and division during battle! But that's just me (and because I don't know any avid HERO gamers around here; heck, I'm probably the source MY friends go to for RPG stuff). I feel like a farm boy in those fantasy novels who gasps at seeing a city for the first time.

[GrayPumpkin]

The MURPG is a decent system. A little too simple and very poorly organized. Granted it hasn’t had the benefit of multiple editions like HERO has, but the thing reads and plays like a beta version. And from the responses to questions given by one of the designers on some forums it obvious that even some of the designers are unsure how some of the game’s nuances work.
The game has potential, and it some ways a like it lot. But it's also is lacking in lot of areas, and can be too cut and dry. Some powers such as Telepathy and Pheromones are very over powered for the cost.
In the end this could be a pretty decent game with further revisions, (or a lot of work from the GM), but I don’t think that the game will last long enough for further revisions to happen.

[Nightmask]

I got a preview of the game from InQuest. It was as I expected, Ok but if the odds are way against you, the game is done. If your team faced one major enemy you have no chance to win, in Hero (I play Fuzion), working together you have a chance, even against aplot device like Galatius!

[VictorVonDoom]

sorry but i liked MSH better.

[MoonHunter]

Did you only play existing Marvel Heroes and not make any new heroes? Did you just not play any other super hero game from the same time period? I have found that the people who actually liked MSH said "yes" to both of the above.

[Nightmask]

I have played the above and here is a complete list of superhero RPGs I have played, or at least the ones off the top of my head.

Champions & New Millium
DC Heroes
Heroes Unlimited
Marvel Super Heroes
Marvel Universe
Villians & Vigilantes

Some of you need a Klingon pain stick!!

[VictorVonDoom]

The only Marvel Universe game i know is MSH ;
The other current one :i don't play because it is diceless and don't see how it function without dices...
I used MSH to created my own heroes and monsters using the Ultimate power Book but it was an experiment
This was the only supergame i know
It is just now that i have more interesses in SAS, Hero and MM

[McCoy]

The Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game, p 2
Many people like resource-decision games more than probably-based die-rolling games because they more closely mirror real life. If you try hard enough, you succeed. And if you don't try hard enough, you fail.

And if someone is homeless, poor, or disadvantaged, it could not possibly be due to causes beyond their control.

Somewhat elitist attitude for a kids game.

*Made it all the way to page 2 before finding something ideologically offensive.*

[GenreFiend]

Originally posted by MoonHunter
Did you only play existing Marvel Heroes and not make any new heroes? Did you just not play any other super hero game from the same time period? I have found that the people who actually liked MSH said "yes" to both of the above.

I have played nearly every superhero system out there, and I love the original MSHRPG. I and my friends created our own original characters, and I even used the rules in running my own home-brewed universe. The only problem I had with it was the incredibly random character generation system. That's why a couple of friends and I came up with a point-based system for it. Makes character creation take a couple of more minutes, but not too many, and allows you more control over how your character ends up.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by MoonHunter
Did you only play existing Marvel Heroes and not make any new heroes? Did you just not play any other super hero game from the same time period? I have found that the people who actually liked MSH said "yes" to both of the above.

Funny, I find lack of experience and understanding of the naunces of the system the main reason behind most desparaging remarks about MSH. It was a very solid game, and still is. It doesn't do what other games do, but it does what it set out to do.