Cinematic Hero

[mcw123]

Hi,

What suggestions do people have for making Hero more cinematic/fast-playing?
I don't mind the time it takes to create a character, or even an entire campaign (after all you only have to do this 'once'), but I would like a way to make the game *play* faster.

What could be added/not included to achieve "Feng-Shui like rapidity".

Cheers,
Mark

[bigdamnhero]

Well, I'm not sure making a game more "cinematic" is necessarily the same as making it "fast-playing," but I think I know what you mean. ;)

"How do I speed up combat?" is a question that comes up fairly regularly here. Do a search for threads on speeding up or streamlining combat, especially in the rules discussion forum, and you should find several. Short version: leave out a lot of the optional rules like Hit Location, Wounding, etc. Use standard effect rule or average dice results. There are other good suggestions in 5ER starting on pg380.

Another thing that works regardless of system is simply, as a GM, to put your players on the spot and force them to think their actions out ahead of time so that when their phase comes up they're ready to go. If the player isn't ready, skip them and go on. Most players learn quickly. (Note: some players HATE this, of course, so talk to your players about it beforehand.)

And welcome to the boards! :celebrate

[bigdamnhero]

Here is one recent thread on speeding up combat:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39730

[Dust Raven]

Welcome mcw123!

Hero System combat couldn't get more cinematic, but faster played it can be. There's a sidebar in 5ER on page 380 titled "Nine Was To Speed Up Combat" which lists several methods one can do to make combat play faster. I don't recoment using all of them at once though, or even the ones you like every combat.

One key method of speeding up the play time is to eliminate as many die rolls as possible during play. Not use the optional rules for things like Knockback/knockdown, Hit Locations, bleeding, wounding and disabling and such, as each of those requires you to roll more dice and look stuff up unless you have it memorized. An alternative to this to for the GM to handle all these rolls. He can make them during the attack and damage resolution the player does.

[Murrkon5]

..
Another thing that works regardless of system is simply, as a GM, to put your players on the spot and force them to think their actions out ahead of time so that when their phase comes up they're ready to go. If the player isn't ready, skip them and go on. Most players learn quickly. (Note: some players HATE this, of course, so talk to your players about it beforehand.)

I understand what you mean, but it's impossible. I gave up long ago. Every time I sat down, thinking "On my Phase, I'm going to haymaker Baron Badguy into the next time zone.", almost inevitably, my fellow players and/or the GM change the circumstances dramatically. By the time my phase comes around, the haymaker is simply not an option.

So, rather than declaring players have to plan for a future action that probably won't apply, I'd say players must instead PAY ATTENTION, keeping on their imaginative toes, ready to act when it's their phase.

And then, as you suggest, if they're busy yakking away about whether Han shot first and the GM has to yell to get their focus on the game, skip right over them.

Slow combat has always been the bane of Hero. The worst I ever experienced was a combat that took five seconds of game time over five hours of real time.

[bigdamnhero]

I understand what you mean, but it's impossible. I gave up long ago. Every time I sat down, thinking "On my Phase, I'm going to haymaker Baron Badguy into the next time zone.", almost inevitably, my fellow players and/or the GM change the circumstances dramatically. By the time my phase comes around, the haymaker is simply not an option.

So, rather than declaring players have to plan for a future action that probably won't apply, I'd say players must instead PAY ATTENTION, keeping on their imaginative toes, ready to act when it's their phase.

And then, as you suggest, if they're busy yakking away about whether Han shot first and the GM has to yell to get their focus on the game, skip right over them.
Yeah, point taken. "Pay attention and stay on your toes" is closer to what I actually meant to say. Rep for saying it better. :thumbup:

[Dust Raven]

Paying attention is crucial. Unless the player is new and doesn't have a full grasp of the rules or how combat works, my unspoken rule about a player asking "okay, what's going on?" at the start of their turn is to respond "you don't know, but if you spend your Phase at 1/2 DCV looking around, I'll tell you."

[Robyn]

I would like a way to make the game *play* faster.

Instead of DCV, use PD/ED for the hordes of cannon fodder. Anyone can roll a natural 3, even the lowest minion, but all that means exactly nothing if your PD exceeds their maximum damage. This won't be straight Defense; you won't have to scale the damage of your major enemies to account for such an irregularity. Just take them with the Limitation "all or nothing", and state the SFX as "dodging" (or, to be even more impressive, "they just miss").

Require an END cost to maintain such powers, and the PC's won't be able to abuse this for effective invulnerability to the lesser foes. Just on the coolest scenes, and who needs to ignore hordes of spandex-clad followers for more than a few seconds, anyway?

It's a neat power, anyway; one I've been thinking about for a few hours now, after watching Vash and the priest approach a house full of 200 gunmen firing at them (shooting to kill) and neither of them suffering a single wound. It occurred to me that this could be represented, not by DCV (since neither of them were making any effort to dodge), but by PD with the unusual SFX that, instead of bouncing (or shrugging) off the bullets, they simply weren't hit in the first place.

Furthermore, at that point, I would take the PD only versus a specific (type of) attack. Let it be "bullets", for instance, and everyone who fires guns at the character needn't even bother rolling if their damage could not possibly exceed that PD.

[mcw123]

Hi Everyone,

Well thanks for all your suggestions - great stuff!!
OK, next question - does anyone know a good way of running (effective, intersting) combat over PBEM?

[Dust Raven]

OK, next question - does anyone know a good way of running (effective, intersting) combat over PBEM?

In my personal opinion, this can't be done. The best method I can think of is for the GM to get a list of tactics from each player and then run a Turn (a full 12 segments of combat) making his best guess as to what each character might do based on the tactics/goals for each player, then send some colorful descriptive text back to each player telling them what happened that turn and requesting a new list of tactics if the combat is still going. Of course, I don't have a lot of experience with combats over PBEM, so there might be a better way that's just beyond me.

[mcw123]

Hi,

What about this question?
My target has a defense (PD/ED/rPD whatever) of X.
My maximum damage is no greater than X.
How can I get any damage through?

Cheers,
Mark

[bigdamnhero]

Hi,

What about this question?
My target has a defense (PD/ED/rPD whatever) of X.
My maximum damage is no greater than X.
How can I get any damage through?

Cheers,
Mark
Pushing
Adding CSLs to damage
Haymaker
Coordinated Attacks with teammates

...if none of those work, hope you can outrun him. Or at least out-run your teammates. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

Armor Piercing or Penetrating attacks, NND attacks or attacks vs exotic defenses come to mind. This only helps if you're in character design, though, or have some environmental items which could have this effect.

Maybe you don't need to hurt him if you can otherwise frustrate his objectives (Flash, Entangle). Can your teammmates harm him (ie he's immune to your attacks, but others have effective attacks?) Maybe you can focus on tactics that distract the target or reduce his DCV. Trebuchet likely has a number of great examples of this from his experience as the low damage character on a long-term team.

Some maneuvers (Haymakers, Pushing) increase damage.

However, perhaps the point is that you CAN'T hurt him and will need to use brainpower, not brawnpower, to win. Perhaps the target has a Vulnerability or Susceptibility you can take advantage of. Maybe you can play on its psychological limitations.

[Manic Typist]

Use Luck Chits.

[input.jack]

Maybe you don't need to hurt him if you can otherwise frustrate his objectives...

Best example of this I ever saw was done by my friend Tom. We were playing in a Hero campaign where there were only the two of us trying to stop six supervillains from stealing a mystical scroll from a museum.

The heroes were a regenerating character with claws (mine), and a flying brick (Tom's).

The villains were a superpowerful "Dark Troll" with a giant hammer (total damage vastly exceeded the campaign maximum for damage set by the GM himself), a super martial artist, a mystic archer, an invulnerable guy, a telepath, and a hot babe with no apparent powers who was, as far as I can tell, not really there to fight.

So, the fight begins, and my character squares off against ShadowBeast (the Troll). I get blindsided by the martial artist, and clocked hard by ShadowBeast and his campaign-destructive club.

Tom looks around at the panopoly of foes, all of whom are on as many or more points than we are.....and swoops in and grabs the scroll off of its pedestal, and flies out smashing a hole in the ceiling.

None of the opposition could fly.

The GM looked at Tom in stunned silence, then began spluttering about how Tom had "ruined everything!"

Toms character stashed the scroll on a rooftop about a mile away, then returned to the museum to finish the fight, which seemed to mollify the GM somewhat.

Ive always been impressed by Toms ability to come up with new and creative approaches to problems. When he does things like that in my games, Im always impressed and pleased!

[Dust Raven]

Hi,

What about this question?
My target has a defense (PD/ED/rPD whatever) of X.
My maximum damage is no greater than X.
How can I get any damage through?

Cheers,
Mark

bigdamnhero pretty much listed your choices during game play. I would add in using the enviornment as a weapon, but this is tricky and not every GM allows this or take it into account when designed a scenario. This is things like throwing the oxygen tank near the bad guy and shooting it (in cases where the bullet can't hurt the bad guy, but the shrapnel and explosion might).

Looking for optional methods of eliminating the target could work. Sometimes you are up against a target that is either invulnerable to your toughest attack (or virtually so), so you have to find means other than damage to due him in. This happened to a character I had in a Rifts game. The camp was attacked by bandits all wearing their nice high-tech armor and the only weapon my character had in hand he wasn't proficient with, but he was wearing powered armor. Using his weapon would yeild random results and only alert everybody to my possiton. HTH combat was suicide for it would take to long to beat through their armor. So, I used the STR in my armor to uproot a few large trees and drop them on the bandits. The bandits' armor wasn't powered, just tough, so they lacked the STR to escape. This gave our side time to regroup and get proper arms to deal with them as they tried to dig themselves out.

[mcw123]

Once again a plethora of great ideas from everyone!
So I guess the answer is to be smart!!!

:thumbup:

[UltraRob]

Looking for optional methods of eliminating the target could work. Sometimes you are up against a target that is either invulnerable to your toughest attack (or virtually so), so you have to find means other than damage to due him in. This happened to a character I had in a Rifts game. The camp was attacked by bandits all wearing their nice high-tech armor and the only weapon my character had in hand he wasn't proficient with, but he was wearing powered armor. Using his weapon would yeild random results and only alert everybody to my possiton. HTH combat was suicide for it would take to long to beat through their armor. So, I used the STR in my armor to uproot a few large trees and drop them on the bandits. The bandits' armor wasn't powered, just tough, so they lacked the STR to escape. This gave our side time to regroup and get proper arms to deal with them as they tried to dig themselves out.

In RIFTS, one of the most dangerous things in the game is a netgun. I've seen whole parties of massive characters defeated in very short order by enemies using entangling netguns. It never seems to occur to PCs that if they can't move, their massive sword/gun is useless, and nobody seems to bother to take superstrength because it doesn't really add much damage unless you get a lot of it. End result is PC's lying around like a bunch of flies trapped by a spider waiting to find out what happens next.

Try it, it's fun! :D Works in other games too!

Rob

[Dust Raven]

In RIFTS, one of the most dangerous things in the game is a netgun. I've seen whole parties of massive characters defeated in very short order by enemies using entangling netguns. It never seems to occur to PCs that if they can't move, their massive sword/gun is useless, and nobody seems to bother to take superstrength because it doesn't really add much damage unless you get a lot of it. End result is PC's lying around like a bunch of flies trapped by a spider waiting to find out what happens next.

Try it, it's fun! :D Works in other games too!

Rob

A number of blinding and stunning effects work just as well in Rifts and other Palladium games. Two of my favorite spells for magic users were Blinding Flash and Carpet of Adhesion, both usually available to any 1st level character. You can stop mecha with the Carpet, and most ground troops are set up for easy pickings after a Flash. According to the rules, they can't attempt to dodge or block an attack they can't see, which just means rolling a 4 or better on a d20 to hit them until they can see again.

[Curufea]

OK, next question - does anyone know a good way of running (effective, intersting) combat over PBEM?
No matter which rules system I use - the rules never survive past character generation if it is a PBeM. Everything else consists of possibly the occasional glance at a rulebook to remind me what something does, and decisions are all narrative in nature.

[Robyn]

Well, I'm not sure making a game more "cinematic" is necessarily the same as making it "fast-playing," but I think I know what you mean. ;)

"How do I speed up combat?" is a question that comes up fairly regularly here.

Use small, transparent plastic cups to hold translucent colored glass beads, and use those for Stun/END/Body. Make sure all the beads are of equal weight. Same goes for the cups, too.

Use another cup for damage. Place each on opposite ends of a scale. If the scales ever become equally balanced, or the "damage" side is heavier, the character is unconscious/dead/etcetera.

No need to count beads as you remove them from a cup or add them to a cup. Might need small scales, though, to avoid cluttering up the table; and that many scales would probably cost a lot, too.

[proditor]

Use small, transparent plastic cups to hold translucent colored glass beads, and use those for Stun/END/Body. Make sure all the beads are of equal weight. Same goes for the cups, too.

Use another cup for damage. Place each on opposite ends of a scale. If the scales ever become equally balanced, or the "damage" side is heavier, the character is unconscious/dead/etcetera.

No need to count beads as you remove them from a cup or add them to a cup. Might need small scales, though, to avoid cluttering up the table; and that many scales would probably cost a lot, too.

That's a really good idea. :thumbup:

[Vondy]

Hi Everyone,

Well thanks for all your suggestions - great stuff!!
OK, next question - does anyone know a good way of running (effective, intersting) combat over PBEM?

The only way is to go no rules and do descriptive e-mail exchanges where the GM and player each add a little bit to the narrative per mail; or to combine this with alternate rules-light mechanic like a "success die" that gives direction in relation to the prose you are allowed to add.

This requires players who are mature, literate, and honest; and a GM who is willing to give some leeway in fleshing out the scene. In other words, everyone has to be on the same wavelength. In my games this also applied in non-combat. Players sometimes introduced plot elements and even NPCs, who I then inherited and had to roll with.

If a game runs this way, the GM becomes the editor-in-chief, and the focus tends to change to story and character - with combat being something that moves the plot forward. Combined with the written format it creates a different sort of approach. Its not so much a game as a cooperative story.

Success die: 1D6.

Roll 1) Dramatic Setback.
Roll 2) Failure
Roll 3) Middlin' Results.
Roll 4) Middlin' Results.
Roll 5) Success.
Roll 6) Dramatic Breakthorugh.

[NestorDRod]

Many moons ago (when rocks were soft and dinosaurs roamed the Earth), I wrote an article for Dave Mattingly's Haymaker APA about bringing cinematic action into Hero. Serendipitously, I had just come across the original file for the article last night while doing some housecleaning on my computer.

The one thing I can extract and present here is my method for streamlining the Speed Chart. Mind you, the Speed Chart is one of the main reasons I love Hero, but translating Speed to Phase to Segment can sometimes be time-consuming. So I came up with a way to determine whose turn it is by doing the translation ahead of time. A warning, though: this system only works if no one has a Speed higher than 6.

The table I came up with looks like this

6 - - - - -
6 5 4 3 - -
6 5 4 - 2 -
6 5 - 3 - 1
6 5 4 - - -
6 5 4 3 2 -

Each entry represents the SPD of the characters to act. The GM would simply read the chart across and down; those character with SPD of X would move (i.e. "OK, SPD 6 moves first, then they move again. Speed 5, go. Then 4..." etc.) Actions which carry over to the next segment (such as the proverbial Haymaker) would have their action occur at the end of a line.

It's not perfect, I know. But I found it emulates the order of actions pretty well, and it makes the use of Speed a bit more intuitive.

Hope that helps. :)

[bigdamnhero]

The table I came up with looks like this

6 - - - - -
6 5 4 3 - -
6 5 4 - 2 -
6 5 - 3 - 1
6 5 4 - - -
6 5 4 3 2 -

Each entry represents the SPD of the characters to act. The GM would simply read the chart across and down; those character with SPD of X would move (i.e. "OK, SPD 6 moves first, then they move again. Speed 5, go. Then 4..." etc.) Actions which carry over to the next segment (such as the proverbial Haymaker) would have their action occur at the end of a line.

It's not perfect, I know. But I found it emulates the order of actions pretty well, and it makes the use of Speed a bit more intuitive.
:think: I'm not sure I get it. I always have characters' Phases written down on the character sheet (and on my GM ref sheet), so I never have to refer to the actual speed chart in combat. I'm not sure how this is easier. Maybe I'm just not seeing it because I'm used to the current chart?

Not meant as a criticism, rather a request for more explanation. :)

[NestorDRod]

No problem. :)

I realize this is not an issue for everyone out there, but I have been in plenty of games where, even with everyone's Phases written down on their character sheets and a Speed Chart on the GM screen, there still seems to be this confusion and time taken to figure out what Speeds occur on what Segment. Using the method I presented, I cut out the Speed-to-Segment translation and simply call out the Speeds. It's a small thing, but every little bit helps. ;)

Maybe a little demonstration will help...

The standard way:

GM: "Segment 1, nobody moves. Segment 2, who's up?"

<rustle of papers as everyone checks their sheet>

Player 1: "I think I do. Wait, no, I go on 3."

And so on...

Using my chart.

GM: "All Speed 6's go now."

<Players with speed 6 act>

GM: "OK. Speed 6, act again. Then 5..."

As the saying goes, Your Mileage May Vary.

[Funksaw]

A few suggestions:

Add a "Take 13" rule - if the player doesn't want to roll, he can opt to "take 13." This doesn't work against opponents with a high DCV, but against mooks, this can save alot of time.

Standard Effects Mandatory - Any attack or effect that does 4d6 or more of effect, it's probably a good idea - for the sake of speed - to have the attack do the standard effect + 3d6. This will cut down greatly on the time spent counting dice and calculating damage.

Standard Killing Attack Stun Multiplier - You just lose an extra die roll here: make killing attacks do 2x stun.

Poker Chip REC - This one gets a little tricky. Use poker chips, Red, White and Blue, to track END and STUN. The Blue chips represent STUN, the White chips represent END. Make a stack of Red chips equal to the REC of the character. That way, when the player takes a recovery, you just compare chip stack height - no counting, no math.

[Funksaw]

No problem. :)

I realize this is not an issue for everyone out there, but I have been in plenty of games where, even with everyone's Phases written down on their character sheets and a Speed Chart on the GM screen, there still seems to be this confusion and time taken to figure out what Speeds occur on what Segment. Using the method I presented, I cut out the Speed-to-Segment translation and simply call out the Speeds. It's a small thing, but every little bit helps. ;)

Maybe a little demonstration will help...

The standard way:

GM: "Segment 1, nobody moves. Segment 2, who's up?"

<rustle of papers as everyone checks their sheet>

Player 1: "I think I do. Wait, no, I go on 3."

And so on...

Using my chart.

GM: "All Speed 6's go now."

<Players with speed 6 act>

GM: "OK. Speed 6, act again. Then 5..."

As the saying goes, Your Mileage May Vary.

This is so brilliant, and so brilliantly obvious, my head hurts.

[bigdamnhero]

The standard way:

GM: "Segment 1, nobody moves. Segment 2, who's up?"

<rustle of papers as everyone checks their sheet>

Player 1: "I think I do. Wait, no, I go on 3."

And so on...
Ah I see what you mean, thanks. FWIW, my solution to this is to keep a "who goes when" chart up on my laptop with every character's SPD & DEX. So for me it usually goes more like:

GM: "Segment 1, nobody moves. Segment 2, Supersonic - you're up."

Requires a little more prep on my part, but not all that much.


Standard Killing Attack Stun Multiplier - You just lose an extra die roll here: make killing attacks do 2x stun.
I totally agree with this, tho personally I prefer 3x.

[Hugh Neilson]

GM: "Segment 1, nobody moves. Segment 2, who's up?"

<rustle of papers as everyone checks their sheet>

Player 1: "I think I do. Wait, no, I go on 3."

And so on...

Using my chart.

GM: "All Speed 6's go now."

<Players with speed 6 act>

GM: "OK. Speed 6, act again. Then 5..."

As the saying goes, Your Mileage May Vary.

Let's look at an example of a SPD 8 Speedster battling VIPER agents and a Brick called Ogre with a 4 SPD.

GM:"SPD 8"

Speedster: "I move - attack some VIPER agents"

GM:"SPD 7"

Speedster: "I move - attack some VIPER agents"

GM:"SPD 6"

Speedster: "I move - attack some VIPER agents"

GM:"SPD 5"

Speedster: "I move - attack some VIPER agents"

GM:"SPD 4"

Speedster: "I move a half move away to make them take range penalties. Martial Dodge and put all my levels in DCV"

GM: "Ogre leaps closer. That's a full move."

GM:"SPD 3"

Speedster: "I move a half move laterally to stay away from Ogre while keepin range penalties. Martial Dodge and put all my levels in DCV"

GM: "Ogre leaps closer. That's a full move."

GM: The VIPER agents fire. Let's see, they need a 3 to hit."

GM:"SPD 2"

Speedster: "I move a half move laterally to stay away from Ogre while keepin range penalties. Martial Dodge and put all my levels in DCV"

GM: "Ogre leaps closer. That's a full move."

GM: The VIPER agents fire. Let's see, they need a 3 to hit."

GM:"SPD 1"

Speedster: "I move a half move laterally to stay away from Ogre while keepin range penalties. Martial Dodge and put all my levels in DCV"

GM: "Ogre leaps closer. That's a full move."

GM: The VIPER agents fire. Let's see, they need a 3 to hit."

Wash, rinse repeat.

Many suggestions for changing the Speed chart result in higher speed characters getting several actions in a row. This allows them to effectively go into "turtle mode" when anyone else gets a move, and attack freeliy (max OCV and damage) in the series of phases the high SPD character gets all in a row.

A list of who moves when works nicely (unless someone has an adjustment power affecting DEX and/or SPD...). Or you can have a listing of the SPD that moves in each phase.

"Phase 1 - no one has an action."

"Phase 2 - All SPD 6's go now"

"Phase 3 - The 4 and 5 SPD's go now."

"Phase 4 - the 3 and 6 SPDs go now"

"Phase 5 - The 5 SPD's go now."

"Phase 6 - the 3 and 6 SPDs go now"

"Phase 7 - no one moves."

"Phase 8 - the 4, 5 and 6 SPDs go now"

"Phase 9 - The 3 SPD's go now."

"Phase 10 - the 5 and 6 SPDs go now"

"Phase 11 - No one."

"Phase 12 - everyone gets an action"

[NestorDRod]

Many suggestions for changing the Speed chart result in higher speed characters getting several actions in a row. This allows them to effectively go into "turtle mode" when anyone else gets a move, and attack freeliy (max OCV and damage) in the series of phases the high SPD character gets all in a row.


Not quite sure what your point is here. Are you saying there's something wrong with higher-speed characters moving more often than slower ones and making use of that tactical edge? :think:

Also, having SPD 8 doesn' mean you move on every SPD less than it, as your example seems to illustrate. It means you move eight times in a Turn, on Segments spaced evenly out, as shown in the SPD chart. A SPD 8 character actually only gets two actions (on Segments 2 and 3) before a SPD 4 or 3 character gets one.



A list of who moves when works nicely (unless someone has an adjustment power affecting DEX and/or SPD...). Or you can have a listing of the SPD that moves in each phase.

"Phase 1 - no one has an action."

"Phase 2 - All SPD 6's go now"

"Phase 3 - The 4 and 5 SPD's go now."

"Phase 4 - the 3 and 6 SPDs go now"

"Phase 5 - The 5 SPD's go now."

"Phase 6 - the 3 and 6 SPDs go now"

"Phase 7 - no one moves."

"Phase 8 - the 4, 5 and 6 SPDs go now"

"Phase 9 - The 3 SPD's go now."

"Phase 10 - the 5 and 6 SPDs go now"

"Phase 11 - No one."

"Phase 12 - everyone gets an action"

Hey, whatever floats your boat.

I would nitpick and say the term you want is "Segment," as in there are 12 Segments in a Turn, and the Segments the character gets to move are their Phases. It's a very common misstatement that occurs in almost every game I play. That's one of the reasons I like my method; it avoids that whole "Phase/Segment" confusion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Not quite sure what your point is here. Are you saying there's something wrong with higher-speed characters moving more often than slower ones and making use of that tactical edge? :think:

When it's toploaded (or backloaded), such that the high SPD character is guaranteed a series of phases during which the target can't react, it creates a problem. When the phases are spaced out, as the Speed chart does, that tactical edge is reduced (not eliminated).

Rereading your initial post, all you've done is rewrite the speed chart with a 6 SPD maximum, reducing available SPD scores. Looks like you've also removed DEX from the equation (the 6 SPD character automatically gets two actions before SPD 5 can move).

[NestorDRod]

When it's toploaded (or backloaded), such that the high SPD character is guaranteed a series of phases during which the target can't react, it creates a problem. When the phases are spaced out, as the Speed chart does, that tactical edge is reduced (not eliminated).


I'm still confused. :confused:

If I get your meaning right, you consider the fact a high SPD character gets to move more than once before a lower SPD character a bad thing. Why? It's in genre; the image of the martial artist or speedster smacking down a couple of mooks before they can even get a shot off is certainly not a rarity.

It is precisely the fact that the Speed Chart provides that moderated edge to high-SPD characters that makes it one of my favorite parts of the Hero System, because it allows players to emulate the fast-moving antics one sees in comic books and movies.



Rereading your initial post, all you've done is rewrite the speed chart with a 6 SPD maximum, reducing available SPD scores. Looks like you've also removed DEX from the equation (the 6 SPD character automatically gets two actions before SPD 5 can move).

Well, yes. As I believe I stated before, my method simply does the "SPD-Phase-Segment" translation ahead of time so it doesn't have to be done during combat time.

And, yes, the method does remove the DEX comparison aspect, but I've found in general that characters with higher SPD tend to have higher DEX too. Comparing DEX usually only becomes an issue when dealing with equal SPD characters.

As I said, YMMV.

[Hugh Neilson]

If I get your meaning right, you consider the fact a high SPD character gets to move more than once before a lower SPD character a bad thing. Why? It's in genre; the image of the martial artist or speedster smacking down a couple of mooks before they can even get a shot off is certainly not a rarity.

I've seen a number of alternate speed systems posed (which I assumed yours matched - it does not) which basicaly provide the high SPD character with all his extra actions either up front or at the end. Thus, if we pit an 8 SPD character against a 4 SPD character, for half the turn, they alternate actions 1 for 1. For the other half, the 8 SPD character gets four moves in succession.


It is precisely the fact that the Speed Chart provides that moderated edge to high-SPD characters that makes it one of my favorite parts of the Hero System, because it allows players to emulate the fast-moving antics one sees in comic books and movies.

I agree. It's the "alternate speed system" changes the advantage that I perceive a problem.


Well, yes. As I believe I stated before, my method simply does the "SPD-Phase-Segment" translation ahead of time so it doesn't have to be done during combat time.

And, yes, the method does remove the DEX comparison aspect, but I've found in general that characters with higher SPD tend to have higher DEX too. Comparing DEX usually only becomes an issue when dealing with equal SPD characters.

As I said, YMMV.

My point, quite simply, is that you could just as easily write out the order in which the characters move, based on the standard SPD chart and relative DEX's, so I don't see this apporach needing to vary from the standard order - it just needs a little prep time.

For myself, I prefer to count through Speed and DEx. My players are able to comprehend the Speed chart, and this way I don't need to track the impact of SPD or DEX drains, Aids, etc. My current PD has 1 point of SPD on activation, so his speed will vary from turn to turn. I also once played with a GM so tied to his combat order chart that we had a running joke 1d6 Standard Effect DEX Drain would result in the NPC's never acting again.

[NestorDRod]

My point, quite simply, is that you could just as easily write out the order in which the characters move, based on the standard SPD chart and relative DEX's, so I don't see this apporach needing to vary from the standard order - it just needs a little prep time.


Understood and acknowledged. My point is that I rarely see that sort of prep work done in games I've played in, so I offered my method as a way to cover the need.

To expand the discussion and still stay on topic, what are folks' perceptions regarding maps and miniatures? Do you find them helpful in terms of adding a visual element to the game, or intrusive in that it can restrict the players' imagination?