LotR What if... question

[Teflon Billy]

I've been watching the LotR movies and it has been several years since I've read the books (also, when I did read them, I read them very quickly with little reflection on subtext and the subtleties of the plot threads)

My what if is: How would things have been different if Saruman the White had not become corrupt?

TB

[Curufea]

He would most likely have helped co-ordinate the defenses of Lothlorien when it was attacked, and helped the Rohirrim reach Gondor faster.

[Basil]

I've been watching the LotR movies and it has been several years since I've read the books (also, when I did read them, I read them very quickly with little reflection on subtext and the subtleties of the plot threads)

My what if is: How would things have been different if Saruman the White had not become corrupt?

TB
Gandalf's fears that Sauron was behind the bruhaha at Dol Gulder would have been checked up on centuries earlier, and Sauron would have had to either flee farther into the Wild or fight long before he was ready. Perhaps at the same time a vigorous search for the One Ring would have been undertaken. It is doubtful Sméagol would've been found, though.

Or, the possibility that Bilbo had found The One Ring would've been taken seriously much earlier, and it would've been sent to Mt. Doom when Sauron was still restoring his reign in Mordor.

In any case, the One Ring would've been dealt with long before things got desperate.

[prestidigitator]

OTOH, what if Bombadil had become instantly corrupted when he put the ring on. MWAHAHA! :eg:

[keithcurtis]

What if Marcho and Blanco had had to fight dinosaurs while settling the Shire, and the Man from UNCLE had to go back in time to save them?

Keith "nah, Basil pegged it" Curtis

[Basil]

What if Marcho and Blanco had had to fight dinosaurs while settling the Shire, and the Man from UNCLE had to go back in time to save them?
:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:

Keith "nah, Basil pegged it" Curtis
Thanks. :winkgrin:

[Badger]

What if Marcho and Blanco had had to fight dinosaurs while settling the Shire, and the Man from UNCLE had to go back in time to save them?

Keith "nah, Basil pegged it" Curtis

And what if Sauron and the White Witch for Narnia hooked up....oh wait I think I started a thread like this before. :p

Though one wonders how a Aslan vs. Balrog battle would've gone down.

[Doc Democracy]

My what if is: How would things have been different if Saruman the White had not become corrupt?

TB

It's an interesting question.

I would think that there may have been the chance that the Rohirrim might not have gone to the aid of Gondor if they had not been stirred into action by the presence of orcs in the Mark due to Saruman's corruption.

I suppose Saruman would have been an additional ally in persuading them to do so though.

[Phil]

If Saruman hadnt been corrupted, the attack on Dol Guldur would have occured sooner. Sauron would have been driven out and peace would reign for many hundreds of years.

The ring would not have been awakened by the presence of the Necromancer in Mirkwood, the ring would not have caused itself to fall from Gollum's finger, so when a curious little hobbit stumbled on a snivelling sneak in a cave under the Misty Mountains, he would've been eaten. The Dwarves would not have made it through Mirkwood, the line of Thror would have been extinguished and the Lonely Mountain would have remained the home of Smaug the Magnificent. Dain would have remained in the Iron Hills.

Eventually Sauron would regain power, although it would have taken much more time. Perhaps the Istari could continue to keep him in check, but such was not their role. More likely that one by one they would become absorbed by their own distractions, Radagast communing more and more with nature, Saruman becoming more and more interested in either his own ring lore or in mechanical devices. Gandalf would have become increasingly isolated. Sauron would probably regain his strength away to the south or east in the countries which were still nominally vassal lands. He would return to strength, with the ring still safely under the Misty Mountain.

The inevitable attack on the forces of Good would come many hundreds of years later, but it would have the addition of Smaug and not have the distraction for forces being drawn off to besiege the Misty Mountain. In the intervening years the line of the kings of men would have died out with Aragorn never fathering children and Arwen sailing to the Lonely Isles in grief. No-one would be there to challenge Sauron to strike rashly and his attack would be measured and ruthless. The West would fall, and darkness would return without hope of redemption.

Or alternatively, the ring would contrive another way to get found, fate (or manwe or illuvatar) would contrive another way for Hobbits to receive it, an unknown people "coincidentally" resistant to the ring's power, and destiny would take its natural course.

[bigdamnhero]

I would think that there may have been the chance that the Rohirrim might not have gone to the aid of Gondor if they had not been stirred into action by the presence of orcs in the Mark due to Saruman's corruption.
Not sure I agree with this. The main reasons the Rohirrim were at all reluctant to send aid to Gondor was 1) they had their own orcs to deal with, and 2) Theoden had been corrupted by Saruman via Wormtongue. Remove those two factors, I can't imagine why they would've hesitated. Of course that's assuming the war started on schedule, and Phil's probably right about that part.

[Thia Halmades]

Are you kidding me?

Aslan would have kicked that Balrog's punkass!

[Erkenfresh]

Aslan would have done exactly what Gandalf did. ;)

[Curufea]

The only time Aslan should kick butt, is if his followers started selling trinkets at the stone table :)

[Erkenfresh]

Only if the tables were in the temple of course.

[Captain Obvious]

What if Marcho and Blanco had had to fight dinosaurs while settling the Shire, and the Man from UNCLE had to go back in time to save them?

Keith "nah, Basil pegged it" Curtis

Then Tolkien will have written Eberron..?

[tkdguy]

Or this is how (http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.html?id=838) JRRT would have written it?

:nonp:

[tkdguy]

I also saw on another board how someone thought the movies were great, as was the novelization (his words), even though Jackson swiped the ideas for Hobbits and Balrogs from D&D. :eek: :rolleyes:

Of course, it was posted on April Fool's Day, but I had a good laugh at that one.

[Curufea]

There was even a petition to change the name of the second movie because of the World Trade Centre. I think some folk even believed that was why the second move was called the Two Towers.
Sad, pathetic, amusing, but sad.

<edit>
http://www.houseofplum.com/plumcrazy/archives/000324.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings:_The_Two_Towers_(film)#9.2F1 1_Controversy
http://www.petitiononline.com/lotr2/petition.html

Can't seem to find the original "Change the name" petition.
Funny, that.

Ah, here we go, on the wayback machine-
http://web.archive.org/web/20021208084403/http://www.petitiononline.com/twotower/

[prestidigitator]

There was even a petition to change the name of the second movie because of the World Trade Centre. I think some folk even believed that was why the second move was called the Two Towers.
Sad, pathetic, amusing, but sad
...
Ah, here we go, on the wayback machine-
http://web.archive.org/web/20021208084403/http://www.petitiononline.com/twotower/
We need a 'laughsandpoints' smiley. I'm sorry, but whoever thought up that petition should be fed to the orcs. ;)

[NinjaGeek]

I have some questions that I'm sure one of you Tolkienites could answer:

1) The appendix in the back of the Return of the King suggests that there were five wizards. What happened to the other three?

2) The appendix also suggests that the wizards were not human but merely came "in the shape of men" out of the West. Does Tokien ever explain what they are or where they come from?

[Phil]

I have some questions that I'm sure one of you Tolkienites could answer:

1) The appendix in the back of the Return of the King suggests that there were five wizards. What happened to the other three?

The five wizards were Curunir (Saruman), Olorin (Gandalf), Radagast and the two 'Blue wizards'. The blue wizards ventured east and south into Sauron's own lands and nothing more is known of them.

[/quote]
2) The appendix also suggests that the wizards were not human but merely came "in the shape of men" out of the West. Does Tokien ever explain what they are or where they come from?[/QUOTE]
They are known as the Istari. Essentially they are Maiar (lesser angelic powers) embodied in mortal form (hence Gandalf's very real death). Suggest you check out the Encyclopedia of Arda:

http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/

[NinjaGeek]

The five wizards were Curunir (Saruman), Olorin (Gandalf), Radagast and the two 'Blue wizards'. The blue wizards ventured east and south into Sauron's own lands and nothing more is known of them.
I thought Gandalf's real name was Mithrandir? :confused:

They are known as the Istari. Essentially they are Maiar (lesser angelic powers) embodied in mortal form (hence Gandalf's very real death). Suggest you check out the Encyclopedia of Arda:

http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/ Cool. Thanks for the link. It would probably also help if I finished reading LotR. I've only read through the first half of the Two Towers. But I've been peeking at the RotK after watching the extended editions of the movies to see what they changed.

[Cancer]

The canon on Tolkien's universe is very deep and is discussed at great length. After the LOTR trilogy came the Silmarillion (published posthumously, but it seems to be nearly fully prepared for publication), and then collections of Unfinished Tales, Lost Tales, and the monumental examination of the drafts of all the works and the evolution of the stories.

At one time (early 1980s) I was fully into that and had it all at my fingertips, but for a variety of reasons I stopped reading more of it after the first Lost Tales book, IIRC.

[Phil]

I thought Gandalf's real name was Mithrandir? :confused:


Hehe, apologies for the understandable confusion. Mithrandir is what the elves of middle earth called him (Grey Pilgrim). His "true" name, being his name before he was 'incarnated' as Gandalf, was Olorin.

[Curufea]

Also of note - the Balrog, or Valarauko (Elvish) is also a Maiar. One that used to work for Melkor/Morgoth (Evil God) before that god was banished by the other gods, and fell under the employ of Sauron (also a Maiar) who was Morgoth's lieutenant.

So technically, all the wizards, Sauron and the Balrog are the same race.

Shelob (the giant spider), last daughter of Ungoliant is not. Ungoliant was hinted at coming from either a different dimension, or different universe. This makes Shelob much more powerful than the more common giant spiders found in Mirkwood.

[input.jack]

Shelob is also the mother of all spiders on Middle Earth.

And all spiders on Middle Earth can talk :eek:

[Curufea]

I'm wondering why Shelob never did, though. Was she too arrogant to bother?

[SteelDoom]

I'm wondering why Shelob never did, though. Was she too arrogant to bother?
I don't usually talk to my food ;)

[SteelDoom]

I have some questions that I'm sure one of you Tolkienites could answer:

1) The appendix in the back of the Return of the King suggests that there were five wizards. What happened to the other three?

2) The appendix also suggests that the wizards were not human but merely came "in the shape of men" out of the West. Does Tokien ever explain what they are or where they come from?

The Istari in dnd terms are demi gods, and had a mission given to them by the king of the Valar (gods). Of the five, only Gandalf remained true to his mission as the others were either corrupted (Saruman), distracted (Radagast) or fell from their path (the blue wizards). While Gandalf and Saruman were sent to aid the West, the glue wizards were sent to actively hinder Souron. While never allying themselves with the enemy, they some how failed in this mission. Perhaps (this is now my own conjecture) they were surrounded too long by Souron's evil and forgot why they were fighting and let the ends justify the means.

This http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/bluewizards.asp Link will give you some more info if you care to chase it up.

[prestidigitator]

I'm wondering why Shelob never did, though. Was she too arrogant to bother?
While she never really explicitly spoke, IIRC we get the impression she had some kind of understanding with Smeagol. Hmm. Going to have to go back and read the trilogy again. It's been a couple of years.

[Rapier]

Well, poo.

I was SO hoping this thread was gonna be about what happens if Frodo gets all liquored up and Sam is feeling frisky.

Sigh.

[Curufea]

Frodo forgets his wounds for a time, and Sam has another child with Rose (he's a bit prolific that way)

[tkdguy]

Considering Sam and Rose had 13 children (I think), I'd say Sam got VERY frisky quite often! ;)

[Brother Jim]

Yeah, well Rose was pretty cute.

And I seem to remember, but am too lazy to check, that Shelob did speak to Gollum in the books.

[SteelDoom]

And I seem to remember, but am too lazy to check, that Shelob did speak to Gollum in the books.
Yeah, I'm not sure on that. I think Sam talked to her and she undestood...
Either way I've used her and her brood many times as an NPC as she's a perfect amoral evil tool

[tkdguy]

In "Shelob's Lair," Gollum " had bowed and worshipped her... And he had promised to bring her food." So she at least understood speech, even if food was all she cared about.

In "The Choices of Master Samwise," good old Sam does challenge Shelob, but her initial reaction mainly came from the light emanating from the Phial of Galadriel, which burned her face and left her open to Sam's attack.

[Curufea]

I can understand why though - an enemy that doesn't talk is more menacing than one that converses with you.
(In general. Obviously Pinhead is an exception)