Poll: Falling Desolid hits the ground.

[ideasmith]

When a falling Desolid hits the ground in your campaign, what happens?

[sinanju]

Assuming his power turns off when he goes unconscious, he falls, hits the ground and takes damage.

[ghost-angel]

Would he go unconcious if he took no damage from the fall though? Likely not.

I would state he deacclerates into the ground at the rate he accelerated through the air. Hope he has Self Contained Breathing or can hold his breath long enough to get back to the surface.

[David Johnston]

Unless it's a Persistent Desolid, it does turn off when he's knocked out. If it is a Persistent Desolid, then it depends on how the power is set up. I personally always get my Desolid characters with a bit of flight to avoid the question of what they walk on. Such a character would fall into the ground then re-emerge once conscious. A character who can actually walk on the ground won't normally sink into it unless he's deliberately trying to and so he'll hit the ground but take no damage.

[ghost-angel]

No part of the original question assumed the character was unconcious when falling.

Assuming a concious, but falling, Desolid Character there is no need to know whether the Desol is Persistant or not. The question is simply: Does a Desolid Character hitting the ground while Desolid take damage or not, and do they stop moving or not.

Why is everyone bringing up the question of Conciousness?

[Hyper-Man]

When a falling Desolid hits the ground in your campaign, what happens?

This entirely depends on what the sfx of the Desolification power is.

Examples from the power's original* source material

Kitty Pryde/Vision/Phantom Girl just pass through ground the same as walls.

Sandman/Hydroman/Plastic-Man would hit and stop just like hitting a wall. Whether or not they take damage is determined if they also took the limitation: Does Not Stop Damage.

*Comics. Yes, HERO powers are supposed to be divorced from sfx but it is worth noting that some powers are closely tied to their comic roots in the original editions of the game. Other examples: Danger Sense, Clinging, N-Ray vision, Swinging etc...

[David Johnston]

No part of the original question assumed the character was unconcious when falling.



Read the poll.

[schir1964]

Why is everyone bringing up the question of Conciousness?
If you look at the poll title and not the first post, then you will know why people are bringing up the subject of Concious/Unconcious.

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

If you look at the poll title and not the first post, then you will know why people are bringing up the subject of Concious/Unconcious.

- Christopher Mullins
ah well dink. silly me :o


If they're still Desolid when they become unconcious we're assuming it is Persistant, otherwise the Desol turns off automatically upon reaching Unconciousness - therefore they would fall as a Solid Character.

Same basic question: When Desol and falling what happens?

I like Hyper-Man's ruling better than my own - going with that.

[CBikle]

This only has happened once in a game that I was running, but it was back around 3rd ed. Champions.

With the original Desolid rules, you could move through a solid object at a rate of 1 body/phase for every 5 active pts. you spent. (with 80 pts. of desolid, you could move through 16 body's worth of solid objects.

Basically a villain (the Fenris Wolf) was thrown off a roof and became desolid as he was falling.

I ruled that the Wolf's desolid form hit the ground and gradually slowed down (8 body/phase deceleration) and eventually he would stop completely and would have to "swim" his way out. Breathing wasn't really an issue, as he had full life support.

Then and now, I still think this was the most consistent way to handle this
with the rules available at that time, but I remember some of the players being very angry with the ruling.

[Robyn]

If you look at the poll title and not the first post, then you will know why people are bringing up the subject of Concious/Unconcious.

Just to complicate things, the poll title is different from the thread title is different from the description in the first post on this thread :confused:

[tesuji]

Just to clarify a rules issue...

when rendered unconscious or stunned, your desolid would NOT turn off immediately. it turns off at the end of the segment. So its possible that a falling unconscious character hits ground while still desolid, depending on how fast he makes it to the ground.

Now, it might be worse for him to pass thru the ground and the turn solid inside.

[Frenchman]

Whether or not they take damage is determined if they also took the limitation: Does Not Stop Damage.
Or Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects

For me, I saw an option missing from the poll: "Other"
I'd rule that they pass through the surface of the ground and then begin to bob up and down, like someone who fell into a body of water.

[Mantis]

I voted that they hit the ground as hard as anyone else, although 5ER says they don't. I just see it as simpler - just say that the Earth is too solid to move through. If a player actually *wants* to move through the Earth, they can pay for LS and appropriate movement powers to do so - but as a trade-off, they don't take falling damage.

[OddHat]

Whether the Desolid character stops or not is a matter of SFX. Water Boy stops; the Amazing Phazing Floozle keeps on falling until he wakes up or reaches the center of the Earth. If he has no life support, he dies.

Unless the Desolid is limited in some way, or the common SFX that affects the character is something like "Attacks that can't be dodged", the falling Desolid character takes no damage.

[ghost-angel]

I voted that they hit the ground as hard as anyone else, although 5ER says they don't. I just see it as simpler - just say that the Earth is too solid to move through. If a player actually *wants* to move through the Earth, they can pay for LS and appropriate movement powers to do so - but as a trade-off, they don't take falling damage.
Running is an apporpriate Movement Power for a Desolid Character to move through the earth with. Life Support, on the other hand, is needed to survive the moving through the earth part.

[OddHat]

Running is an apporpriate Movement Power for a Desolid Character to move through the earth with. Life Support, on the other hand, is needed to survive the moving through the earth part.

And at any rate, any desolid character can dive into the Earth at any time, unless their desolid is limited. Mechanically, why should falling change that? Earth isn't fluid-like to a Desolid character, in that no material is being displaced. It isn't even air-like. It's just not there.

Of course, Desolid characters also shouldn't be able to breathe, see, or exist, so talking about things from anything but a story perspective doesn't make much sense.

[ghost-angel]

And at any rate, any desolid character can dive into the Earth at any time, unless their desolid is limited. Mechanically, why should falling change that? Earth isn't fluid-like to a Desolid character, in that no material is being displaced. It isn't even air-like. It's just not there.

Of course, Desolid characters also shouldn't be able to breathe, see, or exist, so talking about things from anything but a story perspective doesn't make much sense.
I agree. I was approaching from a sctricly Game Mechanic perspective. Which is the only perspective I have since I've never been desolid....

[OddHat]

I agree. I was approaching from a sctricly Game Mechanic perspective. Which is the only perspective I have since I've never been desolid....

Well, there was this one time back in college, when my buddy came back frome Tijuana with ... hm ...

Nevermind.

[Hyper-Man]

Or Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects

For me, I saw an option missing from the poll: "Other"
I'd rule that they pass through the surface of the ground and then begin to bob up and down, like someone who fell into a body of water.

The question wasn't whether they fall through the ground or not.

The question was whether they take damage or not.

Plastic-Man cannot pass through solid objects but arguably would still NOT take damage from a fall if in his Desolidified "rubber body" state (conscious or unconscious).

[Rapier]

Well, kind of a complicated question.

1) Is Desol Persistent? If its not Persistent he is NOT still Desol and takes normal damage.


2) Assuming 1 is yes, how is the Desol defined? SFX can be very important. If it is defined as a phase effect then he would still hit the ground and take damage. If the character has a Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects it's kind of obvious isn't it? The ground is rather solid and the character takes damage.

3) Lets assume that in 2, above, the SFX were true ethereality. The character is, for instance, a ghost. I would still have him stop dead at the level of the ground, but not take any damage. While it might make sense for him to continue to pass through the ground, I would (unless some truly unique construct comes along that I can't yet envision) think that it takes some extra effort to pass through solid matter. Being unconscious he doesn't have the conscious will to push on through so he stops. This also helps your story line. It's not very useful for a character to end up (assuming a good GMs Option hit) in the center of the Earth when the rest of the team (and the villains) are in Atlanta.

[Doc Democracy]

I'm not sure if there are any physicists reading this thread but there aer real physics problems with desolid.

Now. The rulings that we have here are that the desolid person hits the ground and may or may not take damage from that while others would have him decelerate at hitting the denser material and still others would take him to the centre of the earth.

My problem is what is causing the desolid character to fall? Desolid gravity?? As far as I remember gravity is a function of mass and a desolid character has (effectively) zero mass and thus should not be subject to falling never mind and thus what happens to a falling desolid character may not be relevant.

If the character is subject to gravity (from whatever rubber physics you want to use) then that same character has to be subject to the same mass effects when it hits the surface of the source of that gravity well (the ground?)

I think that a falling unconcious desolid character would hit terminal velocity (which would be very low for the mass to surface area ratio) and would slowly bump into the desolid aspects of the surface of the Earth.

I think that counts as other....


Doc

[Shike019]

I didn't vote as it depends completely on the SFX. Would a liquid based Desolid take damage (think if T1000, or what ever it was), would a Ghost take damage? Probably not, but would the "Super Dodge" MA take damage. Yes. At least that is my opinion.

[Rapier]

As far as I remember gravity is a function of mass and a desolid character has (effectively) zero mass

First of all, you can't make a blanket statement like that. There are SO many different SFX for Desol that it's just silly. You might as well comment that all RKAs are shaped like swords.

However, what is it about Desol that should negate mass? In point of fact, you cannot negate mass. Mass is a valuation on how much matter an object consists of. If the item is still in existance, in whatever form, it still has mass.

Weight is a representation of the effects of gravity on a mass-body. Even if an object has no effective weight it still has it's original mass.

[OddHat]

You could run a very short campaign with sellective Real Physics. Desolid Guy dies instantly, Invisible Guy dies in a half hour or so, Lifts Fifty Tons Guy is unable to lift anything that can't support its own weight and, possibly, rips his own arms off...

OK.

Well, I'd get a chuckle.

[Doc Democracy]

First of all, you can't make a blanket statement like that. There are SO many different SFX for Desol that it's just silly. You might as well comment that all RKAs are shaped like swords.

However, what is it about Desol that should negate mass? In point of fact, you cannot negate mass. Mass is a valuation on how much matter an object consists of. If the item is still in existance, in whatever form, it still has mass.

Weight is a representation of the effects of gravity on a mass-body. Even if an object has no effective weight it still has it's original mass.

Well, there are a huge number of explanations about what Desolid is supposed to represent that it is no wonder that there are so many SFX. I guess my initial presumption is that the desolid is purchased such that it allows you to pass through solid objects - you have become intangible.

You fell back on the physics of mass for an imaginary concept of intangibility - how do you know that a comic book intangibility retains its mass...?

However - even playing by your weight/mass explanation - it probably corresponds to how I would rule it - low weight - high surface area - low terminal velocity - low damage on impact with gravity inducing mass below.

If the desolid intended in the original question involves a fluid based character then I would have no hesitation in ruling same terminal velocity (unless some shapeshifting could provide for a parachute effect) and the same damage from that terminal velocity...

So - it depends entirely on SFX. Ideasmith? you need to refine your question - simply asking about a desolid character is not enough...


Doc

[mudpyr8]

5ER 148 spells it out pretty clearly. If he is unconcious and falling then it is simply a matter of whether it is

Persistent: in which case he falls to the center of the earth, and bounces around until he stablizes at the center.

Not: in which case the power will shut off at the end of the segment, which may be in the ground, resulting in not only the teleportation damage table on 5ER 367) but falling damage as well, since he would still have velocity.

That seems like a reasonable answer to me and is how the rules recommend it. Is there a problem with the rules that I am missing?

[Lucius]

This entirely depends on what the sfx of the Desolification power is.

Examples from the power's original* source material

[/SIZE]

Oh, original source material - like:

Astral projection

Vampires turning into mist

Witches attacking in “spectral” form

Any ghost, any ghost story, any culture, any age.

Sorry, Hyper-Man, but I don’t think the comics are the original source material for ANYTHING, and they are demonstrably not the first or only place “desolid” characters appear. If you like, I can take your other example powers and tell you where they came from as well – and it wasn’t the comics either.


And at any rate, any desolid character can dive into the Earth at any time, unless their desolid is limited. Mechanically, why should falling change that? Earth isn't fluid-like to a Desolid character, in that no material is being displaced. It isn't even air-like. It's just not there.

Of course, Desolid characters also shouldn't be able to breathe, see, or exist, so talking about things from anything but a story perspective doesn't make much sense.

Well, jellyfish (hey, I found an example even older than the ones I quoted to Hyper Man!) somehow manage to both exist and to “breathe” in so far as some form of respiration is common to all terrestrial life, as I understand it. As for seeing, I think they are sensitive to light, but I could be wrong. Of course, if tossed off a building, I would expect the jellyfish to take damage on hitting the ground and probably expire (as in, die, not as in, breathe out.) Also, of course, a jellyfish would have a limitation “cannot pass through solid objects unless there is a hole it can ooze through.” (Although I have seen one TRY very hard to push itself through a pane of glass.)

A hologram could probably pass through solid objects but only transparent ones; and it would fall (so to speak) in the “does not fall, no mass, not subject to gravity” category. Of course, it also doesn’t see or breathe.

A cloud of smoke (like I sometimes use for a punching bag) has mass and may or may not fall (depending on how its density compares to the surrounding atmosphere.) Again, it doesn’t see or breathe, though, but it does exist. Or did. I remember distinctly both seeing and smelling it.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary is another matter, so to speak

[Doc Democracy]

That seems like a reasonable answer to me and is how the rules recommend it. Is there a problem with the rules that I am missing?

This answer isn't entirely unreasonable in game mechanic terms.

You are simply saying that going desolid does not provide any change in the way you interact with the mechanics of the world - just the solid matter part of it. That is completely true to the Hero way - if you haven't paid to have no mass then you have the same mass as every other beginning character.

In my game, I would rather the system did not rule that a character could die simply because they were the only one with desolid and when the desolid character disappeared below the surface they would die.

However, I wouldn't like to discount the effects of gravity on a desolid character because that has its own problems of inertia causing a desolid character to whizz out of the planetary atmosphere.

I prefer the gentle falling example because it seems to fit with the idea of an intangible character and there being insufficient momentum to take it through the surface tension of the world.

This does suggest to me that the same character should be able to walk on water and I might even allow that contrary to the tenets of paying for your abilities as expounded above.

So, the unreasonableness to me is completely on the story-telling side of things, it uses scientific reasoning where there is absolutely no basis for doing so. Why shouldn't gravity pull a conscious desolid character through the earth to the same degree? What exactly is that desolid character pushing against to keep them on the surface? If it is there when they are conscious it is there when they are unconcious - in my mind and game anyway...

:)


Doc

[Robyn]

Earth isn't fluid-like to a Desolid character, in that no material is being displaced. It isn't even air-like. It's just not there.

Unless otherwise defined with SFX, but other than those cases, I agree. Well said.


Of course, Desolid characters also shouldn't be able to breathe, see, or exist, so talking about things from anything but a story perspective doesn't make much sense.

Desolidification can never be "to everything", otherwise we may as well be talking EDM with an Extra-Dimensional Clairsentience to the corresponding points in the reality they just left. Naturally, the character isn't Desolid to air (which they weren't solid to before then, either, air being practically a Desolid itself), gravity, or light. Defining the power as "everything" in the first place, and then only breaking this down with Limitations, is a consistent and balanced method within the system, but we should remember that the rules are meant to be universal - not to perfectly reflect the concept of each power. There are a few Limitations "built-in" to Desolidication, implicitly, that let the default power work against physical objects (note that this definition already leaves out forces such as gravity), but not against air or light.

Speaking of which, how can someone have Invisibility and still see? I mean, yes, there are SFX for it, but if we're going to criticize the science . . . :rolleyes:

[Robyn]

If the character is subject to gravity (from whatever rubber physics you want to use)

When atoms bond together to form molecules, there is plenty of "empty" space between them (electrons are in there, but not air). Normally, when other molecules (or single atoms) approach, they are repelled (or, at least, do not "pass through"), because there are deeper reasons why atoms repel or attract one another (not delving into them now, to keep it comprehensible for those of us who aren't physicists). But what if someone found a way to make themselves an exception to that rule? Some form of radiation that rendered their atomic structure "inert" to such reactions, allowing them to move their molecules through and around other molecules?

That's just an SFX off the top of my head, anyway. It still leaves the character with mass, though.

[Robyn]

I would expect the jellyfish to take damage on hitting the ground and probably expire (as in, die, not as in, breathe out.)

I owe you Rep.

As you darn well know :p

Panes of colored glass will be "desolid" to some colors of light but not others . . . :whistle:

[ghost-angel]

I owe you Rep.

As you darn well know :p

Panes of colored glass will be "desolid" to some colors of light but not others . . . :whistle:
Panes of glass are desolid to Particles of Light, but block certain Wavelengths of Light.

it's that whole thing about being both a partical and a wave....

[Lucius]

I owe you Rep.

As you darn well know :p

Panes of colored glass will be "desolid" to some colors of light but not others . . . :whistle:

If I had rep for everytime someone told me they owed me rep....

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary concludes, "He'd have a lot of rep."

[Robyn]

That seems like a reasonable answer to me and is how the rules recommend it. Is there a problem with the rules that I am missing?

Their implementation, rather; one, I (rather cheerfully) admit, which I may have inspired. It started with JLHIII's thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45779), then I posted it in the Fundamental Things to Change in HERO (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1079207#1079207) thread, where discussion continued through most of the next page (if you're using ten posts per, as many people seem to be).

[David Johnston]

Running is an apporpriate Movement Power for a Desolid Character to move through the earth with. Life Support, on the other hand, is needed to survive the moving through the earth part.

Is Running an appropriate Movement Power for a Desolid Character to move into the air with?

[ghost-angel]

Is Running an appropriate Movement Power for a Desolid Character to move into the air with?
Nope. Need Flight.


It's in the Desol writeup somewhere... I'll look it up when I get home.

[Doc Democracy]

When atoms bond together to form molecules, there is plenty of "empty" space between them (electrons are in there, but not air). Normally, when other molecules (or single atoms) approach, they are repelled (or, at least, do not "pass through"), because there are deeper reasons why atoms repel or attract one another (not delving into them now, to keep it comprehensible for those of us who aren't physicists). But what if someone found a way to make themselves an exception to that rule? Some form of radiation that rendered their atomic structure "inert" to such reactions, allowing them to move their molecules through and around other molecules?

That's just an SFX off the top of my head, anyway. It still leaves the character with mass, though.

Yup, agreed. The problem is that when you bring real physics in to explain why something happens regarding an imaginary power there are other science things to trip you up.

For example - your molecules do not bind in the normal way which allows them to pass by other molecules - and you stay on the ground because whatever it is that allows those molecules to retain cohesion also allows gravity to assert a pull on you. What is it that stops you falling through the earth and accelerating toward the centre of the gravity mass?

Personally, I don't want to consider these things when I am playing superheroes. I just want my character to walk through walls. I try to avoid rationales that are too science based (unless it is classic comicbook rubber science) because then it is easy to refute real-world physics by saying that this relies on science as far beyond Einstein as Einstein was beyond Newton.

As soon as you invoke rubber science "What if..." then you pass beyond the need to explain anything. That suits me. As I said I prefer solutions that adhere to good play experience rather than adhere to good science rationales.

I'm repeating myself - I'll shut up now... :)

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Nope. Need Flight.


It's in the Desol writeup somewhere... I'll look it up when I get home.

Or Running with the advantage Usable as Flight (+1/4)

With regard to someone's comment about how someone could die if stunned or knocked out and then fell into the earth or some other solid object before the end of the phase they were stunned/knocked out.

I am usually loathe to suggest this but Desol, NND's and UAA's usually have some unexpected gray areas that popup in game no matter how much careful planning is done.

House Rule it. Simple as that.

Does anyone remember the Star Trek TNG episode when Geordi and another crew member were rendered invisible and desol along with a Romulan? Geordi ended up pushing the Romulan through the side of the ship. I enjoyed the episode despite the fact that the science was so fuzzy I was looking for my glasses (even though I was already wearing them!).

Desolidification is a power and as such should be more benificial than not. If a character can walk around on otherwise ordinary solid ground when conscious and desol why should being unconscious suddenly void this accepted convention? A GM that can't deal with it this way should definitely make a ruling on it at character creation and possibly offer the character a limitation for it too.

[Kenn]

What I'd do is, during character creation, ask the player to answer the questions about the characters form(s) of locomotion while desolidified. I'll ask them to explain why they don't fall through the floor while walking. I'll ask them to actually explain what happens to the character's mass (converted to energy, shunted to another realm/dimension, they're a ghost and don't actually have any mass, they attended Sunday, whatever.)

In the vast majority of cases, the SFX for the desolidification will also be SFX for some of movement power.

In the comics, there's no hard rule. Kitty Pryde had to concentrate to Not fall through floors, as I recall, so she'd fall into the Earth. The Shadow Thief would go splat on the ground, because Carl Sands' body was in another dimension which still had ground for him to walk around on - which is why Katar and Shayera hauled his camper into the air.

[Ganesh]

actually, you can build a fairly decent "desolid" using an EDM to an appropriately non-interactive dimention with a linked clairsentience, with a side effect/benefit that one is visible at the corresponding point in realspace. It also explains why the +2 "affects real world" advantage -- you need to apply Indirect and Extradimentional to any attack power you want to work across the dimentional boundary. Then, there's the fact that some facet of reality is in overlap, so things with the appropriate SFX ("wind," "magic," whatever) hit you anyway. It's...a bit of a mess. One can understand why someone looking at comics would want ot handwave that away with a generic "desolid" power with all the appropriate trimmings.

Well, that and it means aborting to become desolid is an extradimentional dive for cover, which makes some sense, I suppose...but is kind of special.

Like many body-affecting powers, it's a hodgepodge put together because building the power from other components is really clunky and unintuitive. Then again, I feel that way about the "based on OCV" advantage, too.

[input.jack]

I voted for "Dont know", but I did so because in our campaigns, we decide for each character how that works, based on the individual's special effects.

[OddHat]

Well, jellyfish

A hologram

A cloud of smoke

Would any of those qualify as a character in a hard science campaign you've run?

[Dust Raven]

When a falling Desolid hits the ground in your campaign, what happens?

Not even taking into account any issues concerning Desolidification, this question, the poll, and the selection of responses are confusing. If the question is about anything hitting the ground, how can there be an option to keep going?

Anyways, this is all a matter of SFX and that's all there is to it. Well, there's a lot to it, but SFX is the root of it all. Whether or not a Desolid character hits or passes through the ground under any conditions is a matter of SFX and how the Desolidification Power was built, as is whether or not he takes damage, though these two elements are not dependent up on one another. Then there's the question of whether or not the Desolidification Power was bought Persistant, whether or not the character was completely unconscious, now unconscious, or just Stunned. It's a really complicated matter of simple SFX. Or a simple matter of complicated SFX. Something like that.

And real-world physics have absolutely no place in determining how the SFX interact with the reality of the game world or anything else unless they were taken into account during the Power's build. In its default use Desolidification is not only a violation of several laws physics, but it contradicts its own applicability. A Desolid character can pass through solid matter, such as floors and walls, but can stand on floors, climb stairs and the character can even climb a wall for example. Can a Desolid character stand on another character's shoulders? Can a solid character "carry" a Desolid character if the Desolid character chooses to "sit" in the solid character's arms? What happens if the solid character moves? A Desolid character can ride in a vehicle normally, sitting in the seat as the solid vehicle moves through solid space... why not in another character's arms? It just doesn't add up, doesn't make any sense, and you just have to wing it any time something weird come up. And never under any circumstances can you assume that because of X then logically Y, but there is no logic involved.

[SteveZilla]

Sandman/Hydroman/Plastic-Man would hit and stop just like hitting a wall. Whether or not they take damage is determined if they also took the limitation: Does Not Stop Damage.

It's not just F/X -- there is the limitation "Cannot Pass Though Solid Objects(-1/2)". Falling Characters with this Lim on their Desolidification would impact the ground and take damage (according to 5re).

For falling Desolid characters (who wish to stay Desolid), their have two choices (or possibly no choice):

1. Use the "force of will" rule to stop at the surface of the ground -- and take normal falling damage, or...

2. Don't use the "force of will" feature -- the consequences are that the character continues down into the ground at their current velocity. (If they were standing on the ground when knocked out, I'd allow them to stop at the surface).

If the character in question is Desolid and unconscious, they cannot exercise the "force of will" rule -- thus "choosing" option two by default.

If the Desolidification has the Limitation "Cannot Pass Though Solid Objects(-1/2)", they cannot choose #2 to pass into the ground -- thus "choosing" #1 by default, regardless of consciousness.

[Hyper-Man]

It's not just F/X -- there is the limitation "Cannot Pass Though Solid Objects(-1/2)". Falling Characters with this Lim on their Desolidification would impact the ground and take damage (according to 5re).

...snip...

Actually, you are combining 2 different limitations.

5er page 148, last paragraph:
...He's still immune from damage as per standard Desolidification (though many powers with this Limitation also take the Does Not Protect Against Damage Limitation).

[SteveZilla]

In my game, I would rather the system did not rule that a character could die simply because they were the only one with desolid and when the desolid character disappeared below the surface they would die.

Then just house rule that it takes concious will from the desolid character to be able to pass though a solid object. The Desolidification can still work normally in all other respects without creating any real problems IMO.


I prefer the gentle falling example because it seems to fit with the idea of an intangible character and there being insufficient momentum to take it through the surface tension of the world.

Then use the house rule I suggested above, and add that Desolid characters must also take:

1 Gliding 1" - Persistent(+1/2), Linked to Desolidification(-1/2), Always on(-0)

It's just 1 point. I don't think you'd get a lot of objection from the players, especially considering what it prevents.


This does suggest to me that the same character should be able to walk on water and I might even allow that contrary to the tenets of paying for your abilities as expounded above.

Then add:

Naked Advantage (Useable as Swimming(+1/4)) on ## points of Running) - Linked to Desolidification(-1/2)

For 6" of Running, it only costs 2 points.

Though I don't think it's "logical" for a character to be able to move though water *faster* while Desolid than they could swim otherwise (barring certain specific F/X -- such as *becoming* water).

[SteveZilla]

Actually, you are combining 2 different limitations.

5er page 148, last paragraph:
...He's still immune from damage as per standard Desolidification (though many powers with this Limitation alos take the Does Not Protect Against Damage Limitation).

The key words are "as per standard Desolidification". The last paragraph in the left column of the same page defines how standard Desolidification works -- which is as I described.

[Lucius]

Would any of those qualify as a character in a hard science campaign you've run?

Well, I could imagine a jellyfishlike alien life form.

Artificial Intelligences may use holograms to interact with people, but in that case, no, the hologram isn’t exactly the character; it’s a power the character has.

A gaseous life form strikes me as pretty unlikely.

I don't think anything I've ever run qualifies as a "hard science" campaign.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary asks when I was struck by a gaseous life form, and I go "huh?"

[Hyper-Man]

The key words are "as per standard Desolidification". The last paragraph in the left column of the same page defines how standard Desolidification works -- which is as I described.

And how does what you described earlier have anything to do with a malleable body type like Plastic-Man? (note: my post that you quoted was directed at answering this thread's poll question: When a unconcious falling Desolid hits the ground in your campaign, what happens? )

you might wan't to re-read both bottom paragraphs on that page.

[OddHat]

Well, I could imagine a jellyfishlike alien life form.

Really? In a hard science game? For myself, if I did introduce such a creature, I'd be using rubber science, at which point Desolid characters would stop being as much of a problem.

I find your examples unconvincing in the context of the post to which you replied. ;)

[SteveZilla]

And how does what you described earlier have anything to do with a malleable body type like Plastic-Man? (note: my post that you quoted was directed at answering this thread's poll question: When a unconcious falling Desolid hits the ground in your campaign, what happens? )

you might want to re-read both bottom paragraphs on that page.

I have read them. I was saying that F/X is not be the deciding factor in what happens -- How the power is built is. I was also being thorough in describing the full options to a Desolid when Falling, then taking into account both the possibility of being unconcious, and the possibility of having a Limited form of Desolidification.

The mechanics say that for unmodified Desolidification, a falling character has two options when they reach the ground. Either continue to fall *into* the ground (which avoids falling damage), or use the "force of will" feature that lets a Desolidified character walk on the ground to stop at the surface -- but doing that causes normal falling damage (p148 of 5re, top of second column).

If they are unconscious, they can't exercise a "force of will" decision - thus they pass into the ground. If their desolid is limited so they can't pass though solid objects (like the ground), they have no "force of will" option available -- they're going to stop. Placing that Limitation on the Desolidification doesn't suddenly provide the benefit of not taking falling damage. I'm pretty sure that the damage that the Limitation writeup is talking about is damage from attacks, not environmental effects.

Example: Hero X (Normal Desolidification), and Hero Y ("Cannot Pass Though Solid Objects" Desolidification) are both falling. Hero X uses "force of will" and stops at the ground, taking falling damage. Hero Y has no choice but to stop at the ground, as his Desolid won't permit him to pass into the ground. Why would he not take falling damage from the sudden stop when Hero X did?

[Doc Democracy]

I'll have to go look at FREd - not upgraded yet. However, I never like paying points for something that is likely to be the cause of an unheroic death. :)

I guess SFX are the ultimate arbiter as they should determine the way you build the power. I think it demonstrates the unusual nature of DESOLID as a power and the need for a GM to ask lots of questions to ensure the gameplay of the power is tied down before the game strats.


Doc

[Robyn]

Then just house rule that it takes concious will from the desolid character to be able to pass though a solid object. The Desolidification can still work normally in all other respects without creating any real problems IMO.

I disagree. If the character must exert conscious will for their Desolidification to work, they must be aware of objects for those to pass through them; meaning that swords from behind, bullets from extreme range, and anvils dropped on their head will all catch the character by surprise and not be treated differently according to the Desolidification.

[Robyn]

Really? In a hard science game? For myself, if I did introduce such a creature, I'd be using rubber science,

Such a creature would be unrealistic for the standard Earth environment, but, then, humans are unrealistic for many planetary environments; the jellyfishlike alien could be perfectly suited to its native, home environment, but be using some form of life support to sustain it on our planet.

[OddHat]

Such a creature would be unrealistic for the standard Earth environment, but, then, humans are unrealistic for many planetary environments; the jellyfishlike alien could be perfectly suited to its native, home environment, but be using some form of life support to sustain it on our planet.

In a hard science campaign, the GM will have trouble getting an alien to Earth, and more explaining why its culture, language, thought process and technology are close enough to human normal to permit its use as a character. Its biology in general will be a strain. The GM is unlikely to come up with a non-rubber science life support system that allows the thing to survive and function while still being effectively desolid.

So, again, the example doesn't convince.

[SteveZilla]

I disagree. If the character must exert conscious will for their Desolidification to work, they must be aware of objects for those to pass through them; meaning that swords from behind, bullets from extreme range, and anvils dropped on their head will all catch the character by surprise and not be treated differently according to the Desolidification.

That's not quite what I said/meant. I meant that IMO it's possible to house rule that the Desolidification still works normally against attacks. Effectively, he'd desolid to everything but the ground (i.e., he's assumed to be choosing the "force of will" option from 5re all the time as an instinctive thing while desolid). Though if the player really wants it otherwise (i.e., by the book), I see no reason for the GM to override him.

It's not the house rule I would choose -- it's what I thought would be least complicated for that person's game, and still satisfy what he wanted (non-lethality from long falls, I believe).

[Robyn]

Effectively, he'd desolid to everything but the ground (i.e., he's assumed to be choosing the "force of will" option from 5re all the time as an instinctive thing while desolid).

That would work. (I don't have 5ER.) I was thinking in terms of exerting a conscious "effort of will".

[Hyper-Man]

I have read them. I was saying that F/X is not be the deciding factor in what happens -- How the power is built is. I was also being thorough in describing the full options to a Desolid when Falling, then taking into account both the possibility of being unconcious, and the possibility of having a Limited form of Desolidification.

The mechanics say that for unmodified Desolidification, a falling character has two options when they reach the ground. Either continue to fall *into* the ground (which avoids falling damage), or use the "force of will" feature that lets a Desolidified character walk on the ground to stop at the surface -- but doing that causes normal falling damage (p148 of 5re, top of second column).

If they are unconscious, they can't exercise a "force of will" decision - thus they pass into the ground. If their desolid is limited so they can't pass though solid objects (like the ground), they have no "force of will" option available -- they're going to stop. Placing that Limitation on the Desolidification doesn't suddenly provide the benefit of not taking falling damage. I'm pretty sure that the damage that the Limitation writeup is talking about is damage from attacks, not environmental effects.

Example: Hero X (Normal Desolidification), and Hero Y ("Cannot Pass Though Solid Objects" Desolidification) are both falling. Hero X uses "force of will" and stops at the ground, taking falling damage. Hero Y has no choice but to stop at the ground, as his Desolid won't permit him to pass into the ground. Why would he not take falling damage from the sudden stop when Hero X did?

Ok, let me highlight the important part for you if you missed it:

5er page 148, last paragraph:
Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2): This Limitation represents a form of Desolidification that does not provide true intangibility; it simulates mist form powers, malleable bodies, and similar abilities. The character can squeeze through very tiny openings, but cannot actually pass through physical objects. He's still immune from damage as per standard Desolidification (though many powers with this Limitation also take the Does Not Protect Against Damage Limitation).

This Limitation is not commenting on what happens to the character with the 'standard' or 'true intagibility'.

I think it is a bit silly that a character with the un-limited version of the power is getting penalized more than the limited one in this given circumstance but I would imagine this is something that a good GM would pick up on at character creation or house rule it if the situation caught him by suprise.

[Robyn]

He's still immune from damage

So, do we call this Immunity, or Invulnerability?

[Lucius]

Um, guys....

The jellyfish is native to Earth.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary is just shaking its heads.

[Robyn]

The jellyfish is native to Earth.

The two of us weren't debating jellyfish, though, and you didn't bring them up:


I could imagine a jellyfishlike alien life form.

It's "like" a jellyfish, not an actual jellyfish, and an alien life form, not "native to Earth".

[SteveZilla]

Ok, let me highlight the important part for you if you missed it:

5er page 148, last paragraph:
Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2): This Limitation represents a form of Desolidification that does not provide true intangibility; it simulates mist form powers, malleable bodies, and similar abilities. The character can squeeze through very tiny openings, but cannot actually pass through physical objects. He's still immune from damage as per standard Desolidification (though many powers with this Limitation also take the Does Not Protect Against Damage Limitation).

This Limitation is not commenting on what happens to the character with the 'standard' or 'true intagibility'.


What are the next 4 words that follow the section you highlighted? "...as per standard Desolidification." Which is saying that this Limitation doesn't affect the how or when the Desolidified character takes damage, only his movement, right?

And what are the rules for a regular desolidified character who is falling to the ground? Let me highlight the important part:

5er page 148, last paragraph in the first column (which continues into the top of the second column):

A Desolidified character falls at normal velocity (see page 434). He takes no damage from impacting the ground... but he doesn't stop at the ground, he just keeps falling into and though it! This could cause serious problems if he doesn’t have Life Support or a Movement Power than can counteract the fall. He can use the same "force of will" that lets him walk on the ground to stop his fall when he hits the ground, but he takes normal falling damage.


I think it is a bit silly that a character with the un-limited version of the power is getting penalized more than the limited one in this given circumstance but I would imagine this is something that a good GM would pick up on at character creation or house rule it if the situation caught him by suprise.

How is the un-Limited Desolid character being penalized more? A Limitation that modifies a Desolid's ability to move has no bearing on whether or not he can avoid damage. The two are separate issues.

This might clarify it further. (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1081925#post1081925)

[OddHat]

Um, guys....

The jellyfish is native to Earth.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary is just shaking its heads.

Yes, your point being that some types of living creature could reasonably be described as having one very limited type of Desolidification. My point was and is that such creatures are not viable as characters in campaigns that do not use rubber science. Remember the whole "real physics applied to a non-real power" issue?

You may have inhaled too much smoke.

[Hyper-Man]

...snip...


How is the un-Limited Desolid character being penalized more? A Limitation that modifies a Desolid's ability to move has no bearing on whether or not he can avoid damage. The two are separate issues.

This might clarify it further. (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1081925#post1081925)


Um, this was the point I was making. The situation I presented in my second post to the rules thread clearly shows that the current rules give undue special status to damage from hitting the ground (when it is not the direct result of another character's actions) vs. that of damage from any other physical impact.

Steve's answer is a consistent ruling based soley on points. I see this as a problem with the current construction of Desolidification. It brings into question the effectiveness of a slew of other Limited Invulnerability Desol constructions. And I seriously doubt that many GMs would make the same rulings as Steve in an actual game situation.

From the Power and Limitation descriptions it makes no sense. From the metagame aspect it makes some sense but only to point out that there are issues with the current cost structure of the power.

This is another type of rule that I would put in the same bag as adding damage for Advantaged HA's. Starting GM's and Players are going to be confused by it more often than not.

[Dust Raven]

In a hard science campaign, the GM will have trouble getting an alien to Earth, and more explaining why its culture, language, thought process and technology are close enough to human normal to permit its use as a character. Its biology in general will be a strain. The GM is unlikely to come up with a non-rubber science life support system that allows the thing to survive and function while still being effectively desolid.

So, again, the example doesn't convince.

Who says it has to be an intelligent creature? Not all alien lifeforms are sentient. It could just be an animal found in an alien enviornment.

[Dust Raven]

5er page 148, last paragraph in the first column (which continues into the top of the second column):

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5re
A Desolidified character falls at normal velocity (see page 434). He takes no damage from impacting the ground... but he doesn't stop at the ground, he just keeps falling into and though it! This could cause serious problems if he doesn’t have Life Support or a Movement Power than can counteract the fall. He can use the same "force of will" that lets him walk on the ground to stop his fall when he hits the ground, but he takes normal falling damage.

I think that pretty much answers the original question posted. If the desolid character stops when he reaches the ground after a fall, he takes damage, assuming it's the ground that stops him due to the force of will thing of Desolidification. If it doesn't stop, then no damage and he keeps on going.

The question would then be, if the character is unconscious, is the default always not stopping, always stopping, or does it vary depending on the SFX of the Power?

[OddHat]

Who says it has to be an intelligent creature? Not all alien lifeforms are sentient. It could just be an animal found in an alien enviornment.

Even having a living non-intelligent alien on Earth is going to require handwaving and/or some kind of rubber science. How about this: A hard science campaign can have Jellyfish, ordinary Earth Jellyfish, in which case there'd be a living creature with Desolidification that didn't protect against damage and allowed passage through solid objects. It still wouldn't be a character, and whether or not it took damage when striking the ground would still be self evident. ;)

[Lucius]

Oddhat: I'm not sure how you define "Hard science." Make the science hard enough, and you're just playing Dark Champions. And a less "cinematic" version of Dark Champions at that.

I don't think I understand your point.

Lucius Alexander

And an Invisible Desolidified palindromedary

[OddHat]

Oddhat: I'm not sure how you define "Hard science." Make the science hard enough, and you're just playing Dark Champions. And a less "cinematic" version of Dark Champions at that.

Exactly so.


I don't think I understand your point.

Lucius Alexander

And an Invisible Desolidified palindromedary

I'm not sure if re-stating it will help. As has been posted by others in this thread, Desolidification for characters, specifically the unlimited variety, is fantasy. Trying to describe it in terms of hard science is a waste of time.

You can describe it in whatever story driven flavor of magic or rubber science suits your fancy, but at that point worrying about exactly which laws of physics it violates is, imo, silly. It does what it does because the GM or author wants it to, and everything after that is just color text.

[Lucius]

I'm not sure if re-stating it will help. As has been posted by others in this thread, Desolidification for characters, specifically the unlimited variety, is fantasy. Trying to describe it in terms of hard science is a waste of time.

You can describe it in whatever story driven flavor of magic or rubber science suits your fancy, but at that point worrying about exactly which laws of physics it violates is, imo, silly. It does what it does because the GM or author wants it to, and everything after that is just color text.

And the only thing I listed that's even a living being would certainly not have "the unlimited variety."

It just seems to me that what you're saying is that once we stray into the realm of the speculative, let alone the impossible, we might as well just abandon all pretence at complying with physics, logic, or even internal consistency. Maybe that's a stronger position than what you're actually meaning, but if that's what you're saying, we will have to disagree.


By the way: Have I mentioned lately how much I hate Desolid?

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary remarks that it's one of those passions that just gets stronger with time.

[OddHat]

And the only thing I listed that's even a living being would certainly not have "the unlimited variety."

Yes.


It just seems to me that what you're saying is that once we stray into the realm of the speculative, let alone the impossible, we might as well just abandon all pretence at complying with physics, logic, or even internal consistency. Maybe that's a stronger position than what you're actually meaning, but if that's what you're saying, we will have to disagree.


Not exactly. Once we stray into the realm of the speculative, our decisions can no longer be objectively right or wrong by the standards of real world physics. We've thrown those out the window. The custom tailored faux physics we put together to replace them only have to make enough sense to allow suspension of disbelief while fitting the story.

Whether or not a falling desolid character stops when hitting the ground should be decided based on what your campaign logic requires.

[ghost-angel]

P148. 5ER. Characters keep falling until they will themselves to stop, then they take normal falling damage. Apply Science after you've got SFX.

[SteveZilla]

Um, this was the point I was making. The situation I presented in my second post to the rules thread clearly shows that the current rules give undue special status to damage from hitting the ground (when it is not the direct result of another character's actions) vs. that of damage from any other physical impact.

I went back and re-read your first two posts to this thread and think I thought you were saying something other than you did. (Quoted below is the one I mis-read).


This entirely depends on what the sfx of the Desolification power is.

Examples from the power's original* source material

Kitty Pryde/Vision/Phantom Girl just pass through ground the same as walls.

Sandman/Hydroman/Plastic-Man would hit and stop just like hitting a wall. Whether or not they take damage is determined if they also took the limitation: Does Not Stop Damage.

I could have *sworn* you were saying something different -- that the F/X alone would determine if the character took damage from a fall & hard stop.


Steve's answer is a consistent ruling based soley on points. I see this as a problem with the current construction of Desolidification. It brings into question the effectiveness of a slew of other Limited Invulnerability Desol constructions.

Neither of those is within the scope of this thread. But if I understand "Limited Invulnerability", it's effectively Desolid - Only To Protect Against [certain F/X] Damage(-?). If that's correct, then of course it wouldn't protect against falling damage (unless that was the chosen F/X, I guess).


And I seriously doubt that many GMs would make the same rulings as Steve in an actual game situation.

That is an opinion. It may be correct, it may not. Personally, if the issue ever came up (i.e., the math would make for a desolid PC entering the ground while unconscious), I would look for a convenient way for the environment (or a handy low-level NPC) to prevent that fate. Or a way to un-do the fate after it happens. It could be the basis for a short story arc and perhaps a Radiation Accident!


From the Power and Limitation descriptions it makes no sense. From the metagame aspect it makes some sense but only to point out that there are issues with the current cost structure of the power.

There's got to be a dividing line somewhere between "attack damage" and "environmental damage".


This is another type of rule that I would put in the same bag as adding damage for Advantaged HA's. Starting GM's and Players are going to be confused by it more often than not.

If I'm understanding the issue with Advantaged HA's, then I agree on that point (that Adding damage to an Advantaged HA should be at the same ratio as it's advantages, and not 1:1 -- right?). Though I would say that it shouldn't be a 1:1 because that creates a loophole.

[Dust Raven]

Even having a living non-intelligent alien on Earth is going to require handwaving and/or some kind of rubber science.
Not really. At worst it requires speculative hard science. Ideas not proven wrong and have to the best of our current understanding supporting evidence, such as life on Titan. Regardless, the alien could be encountered in it's natural environment, making us the aliens. Hell it can even be encountered in a story in which there is no Earth, only aliens. I'm just picking nits at this point though.

How about this: A hard science campaign can have Jellyfish, ordinary Earth Jellyfish, in which case there'd be a living creature with Desolidification that didn't protect against damage and allowed passage through solid objects. It still wouldn't be a character, and whether or not it took damage when striking the ground would still be self evident. ;)
Agreed. In most cases the results would be self evident, especially in a hard science environment, but even in a rubber science type environment.

[Robyn]

Personally, if the issue ever came up (i.e., the math would make for a desolid PC entering the ground while unconscious), I would look for a convenient way for the environment (or a handy low-level NPC) to prevent that fate. Or a way to un-do the fate after it happens. It could be the basis for a short story arc and perhaps a Radiation Accident!

Desolidification, Useable As Attack?

"I make my arch-nemesis Desolid to stone and hurl him down into the bedrock."

[Dr. Anomaly]

Desolidification, Useable As Attack?

"I make my arch-nemesis Desolid to stone and hurl him down into the bedrock."
As soon as the bedrock cuts line of sight, though, the power turns off, unless you've also bought it "Ranged" and "No Line of Sight Needed". ;)

[Robyn]

As soon as the bedrock cuts line of sight, though, the power turns off, unless you've also bought it "Ranged" and "No Line of Sight Needed". ;)

I only make him materialize inside solid rock instead of hurtle down toward the planet's core, then?

Aww, that takes all the utility out of it :(

;) :eg:

[OddHat]

Not really. At worst it requires speculative hard science. Ideas not proven wrong and have to the best of our current understanding supporting evidence,

That's still handwaving. It takes things to a given point, then for the final jump past what has been proven possible the GM or author says "I don't know how, it just works".


Regardless, the alien could be encountered in it's natural environment, making us the aliens.

More handwaving or rubber science to get us there.


Hell it can even be encountered in a story in which there is no Earth, only aliens. I'm just picking nits at this point though.

Yes.

[SteveZilla]

As soon as the bedrock cuts line of sight, though, the power turns off, unless you've also bought it "Ranged" and "No Line of Sight Needed". ;)

Actually, it's impossible to deliberately materialize a person inside a solid object. The rule on Teleportation+UAA on p368 of 5re (top-left corner) also applies to Desolidification+UAA according to Steve L.

[Dust Raven]

That's still handwaving. It takes things to a given point, then for the final jump past what has been proven possible the GM or author says "I don't know how, it just works".



More handwaving or rubber science to get us there.



Yes.

Show me a role-playing game with absolutely no GM handwaving and I'll show you an author reading a story to a selective audience.

[Dust Raven]

Actually, it's impossible to deliberately materialize a person inside a solid object. The rule on Teleportation+UAA on p368 of 5re (top-left corner) also applies to Desolidification+UAA according to Steve L.

Okay, but does Steve go on to say what happends if we try?

Note: I'm typing this without access to my book, so as far as I know he does right there.

[OddHat]

Show me a role-playing game with absolutely no GM handwaving and I'll show you an author reading a story to a selective audience.

Agreed.

[SteveZilla]

Okay, but does Steve go on to say what happends if we try?

Neither the 5re book nor the FAQs (that I can tell) specify, other than to say it's impossible (which is the important part). I think Steve leaves this point up to "special effects, common sense, dramatic sense, etc., etc., etc. " ;)

Though I have to wonder if those senses are Active or Passive... :D

[Guyon]

Is V4 and v5 rules on this different? I thought it would be a simple answer. I am answering by v4

If he hits the ground before his next segment he goes though the ground taking no damage, then turns solid on his next action phase. Which would result as damage from turning solid inside an object and possibly the breathing issue.

If his next phase came before he hit the ground then he would take damage from the fall.

[ghost-angel]

Is V4 and v5 rules on this different? I thought it would be a simple answer. I am answering by v4

If he hits the ground before his next segment he goes though the ground taking no damage, then turns solid on his next action phase. Which would result as damage from turning solid inside an object and possibly the breathing issue.

If his next phase came before he hit the ground then he would take damage from the fall.
It is a simple answer, the answer is on p148 of 5ER.

A Falling Desolid character may remain Desol and continue to fall through the earth, or he may stop himself on the ground with "force of will" and take falling damage, or he may turn solid and take falling damage.

[Dust Raven]

It is a simple answer, the answer is on p148 of 5ER.

A Falling Desolid character may remain Desol and continue to fall through the earth, or he may stop himself on the ground with "force of will" and take falling damage, or he may turn solid and take falling damage.

But is it agreed upon that if the Desol is Persistant and the character is unconscious, or the potential impact happens before the end of the segment in which the character falls unconscious, that there is no "force of will" to stop the character at the point of impact and he continues to fall?

[Robyn]

But is it agreed upon that if the Desol is Persistant and the character is unconscious, or the potential impact happens before the end of the segment in which the character falls unconscious, that there is no "force of will" to stop the character at the point of impact and he continues to fall?

That question is why we have this thread.

[Dust Raven]

That question is why we have this thread.

I figured it was more than just that, but in any case, I was wondering if there was any kind of consesus or if that one bit was still under discussion.

[SteveZilla]

Is V4 and v5 rules on this different? I thought it would be a simple answer. I am answering by v4

If he hits the ground before his next segment he goes though the ground taking no damage, then turns solid on his next action phase. Which would result as damage from turning solid inside an object and possibly the breathing issue.

If his next phase came before he hit the ground then he would take damage from the fall.

The question for this thread & poll states that the desolid is persistent, thus not turning off. Otherwise, it seems that v4 and v5 are the same (IIRC). I don't have my 4th ed. handy, so I can't check to be sure. But I don't recall Desolidification being one of the things changed between v4 and v5.

[SteveZilla]

I figured it was more than just that, but in any case, I was wondering if there was any kind of consesus or if that one bit was still under discussion.

I was under the impression that there was some sort of consensus. Taking a look at the poll, that seems to indicate that the majority play it the way it's written.

[bwdemon]

My personal thought on the matter is that, barring anything for gravity to pull on and assuming the desolidification is persistent, the character would not fall at all. Instead, they'd just be unconscious in the same spot as before.

I am a big fan of writing a power to fit the special effects. Sometimes, this doesn't come off right or an unforeseen event happens and you end up with situations like this poll expresses. That's when you look at the special effects and character concept to determine the result.

A gaseous character might scatter in the winds (good story fun and character/player distress there) or just hang around the area like a fog (perhaps dispersing a little). A liquid or liquid-like character would fall to the ground in a puddle/pile. A stretchy character would hit normally. A ghost-like or truly desolid character would just stay in place (no pull of gravity, no traction, no action to force reaction, etc.).

If not persistent, of course, then they bounce in an unkind way.

[SteveZilla]

My personal thought on the matter is that, barring anything for gravity to pull on and assuming the desolidification is persistent, the character would not fall at all. Instead, they'd just be unconscious in the same spot as before.

The character would have to buy Flight 1" - Zero END(+½), Persistent(+½), Linked(to Desolidification; -½), Only To Prevent Falling(-¼).

Just the same way that a character with TK has to also buy Flight, the Desolid will have to buy it also. One Power doesn't give the benefits of a second, seperate power (not counting Density Increase & Growth).


I am a big fan of writing a power to fit the special effects.

I agree. I think that the basic "what does it do" and the F/X of "how it does it" are the two main guiding factors for building a power.


Sometimes, this doesn't come off right or an unforeseen event happens and you end up with situations like this poll expresses. That's when you look at the special effects and character concept to determine the result.

If I thought it was within the character's/Power's F/X to have an "overlooked" ability, I might talk it over with the character. Presuming he agrees to use currently saved XP (or the next XP earned) to purchase it, I'd let him have it "early".

Otherwise, there can easily be an in-game reason for why the character can't do this thing. Perhaps that is one aspect that the character hasn't discovered yet. Or he's so panicked that he doesn't think to use the ability.

[bwdemon]

Wouldn't a desolid character need some flight anyway? It isn't like they could use running (no connection with the ground) and truly desolid characters wouldn't feel the pull of gravity, so they wouldn't "fall" anyway. That's why I say they'd just stay in the spot they went unconscious in. Again, this requires persistent Desolidification.

[ghost-angel]

Wouldn't a desolid character need some flight anyway? It isn't like they could use running (no connection with the ground) and truly desolid characters wouldn't feel the pull of gravity, so they wouldn't "fall" anyway. That's why I say they'd just stay in the spot they went unconscious in. Again, this requires persistent Desolidification.
By the rules, to do that they would also need Persistant Flight.

But for the SFX you have mentioned, I would think they might have that already.

[Robyn]

By the rules, to do that they would also need Persistant Flight.

But for the SFX you have mentioned, I would think they might have that already.

Agreed.

I don't see how "ignores the pull of gravity" would make for a "truly desolid" character, though.

[Shike019]

I think most people get caught up in the SFX of Desolid being some sort of Intangiblilty such as mist or a ghost and they forget that there are other types of desolid, such as liquid, that are very viable SFX for the power. And it seems that the Mist/Ghost type concept is the only concept that people seem to be considering.

[prestidigitator]

I think most people get caught up in the SFX of Desolid being some sort of Intangiblilty such as mist or a ghost and they forget that there are other types of desolid, such as liquid, that are very viable SFX for the power. And it seems that the Mist/Ghost type concept is the only concept that people seem to be considering.
Those aren't all I am considering. If you hit a surface and your water body deforms significantly, that doesn't necessarily mean you take damage. It has to deform significantly to protect you from various attacks at times too, right?

[SteveZilla]

Those aren't all I am considering. If you hit a surface and your water body deforms significantly, that doesn't necessarily mean you take damage. It has to deform significantly to protect you from various attacks at times too, right?

It's Comic-Book Physics, people. According to the Champions sourcebook, all that is needed is a moderately plausible *sounding* explanation of the Power. Then the character can buy the Power (with any needed "auxillary" powers, Advantages, and Limitations). Barring any modifiers, the power does what it does -- no more, no less. Want to "float" == Buy Flight. Want to be really, really hard to hurt while Desolid == Buy Damage Reduction. Want to be an invisible ghost == Buy Desolid and Invisiblity. Etc., Etc., Etc., Etc., ...

Once we start to pick a power apart based upon this-or-that F/X or perceived incongruity, we've forgotten that we don't have to explain the power down to the Nth level of detail, or to bend the incongruities into "alignment" with the rest of the power. Often, those Incongruities are there either because when the Power was first imagined it wasn't thought out fully (Comic Book Writers are often not Scientists), or because of Game Balance Issues.

But to take a swing at the water form: (:D)

Perhaps a shock to the entire body (surface and insides also) is too much for the character to compensate for, even with their liquid form. But a shock to a small region is no problem for them to "flow around". The difference between poking a water ballon with a finger, and smacking it with a frying pan.

To me, this gives a suficient explanation for why they'd take falling damage even while Desolid. They might want to even define it further with the Limitation "Not Vs Area-Effect Attack", for the same reason.

[Hyper-Man]

If nothing else, this thread is a good argument against the use of Limited Desolidification as a form of Invulnerability since Environmental Damage is treated differently than attacks from characters (and it is done so for no other reason but point/play balance vs. non-Limited Desolidification).

[SteveZilla]

If nothing else, this thread is a good argument against the use of Limited Desolidification as a form of Invulnerability since Environmental Damage is treated differently than attacks from characters (and it is done so for no other reason but point/play balance vs. non-Limited Desolidification).

I agree. And that's not to mention the strange occurrence of the "Limited Invulnerability" being overcome by an attack he is Invulnerable to if it happens to have "Affects Desolid".

IMO Limited Invulnerabilities are better built with extra defenses and Damage Reduction at their base instead of Desolidification.

But I don't think we should get rid of Desolidification. The alternative, from what I can imagine, seems too much of a kludge build (Triggered Tunneling /w Fill In, and also the extra Defenses & DR :idjit: )

[Dust Raven]

I think most people get caught up in the SFX of Desolid being some sort of Intangiblilty such as mist or a ghost and they forget that there are other types of desolid, such as liquid, that are very viable SFX for the power. And it seems that the Mist/Ghost type concept is the only concept that people seem to be considering.

At least in regards to what happens when a Desolid character falls I haven't been considering any SFX, just the game mechanics of Desolidification.

Then again, I'm not most people. I'm just one people.

[OddHat]

If nothing else, this thread is a good argument against the use of Limited Desolidification as a form of Invulnerability since Environmental Damage is treated differently than attacks from characters (and it is done so for no other reason but point/play balance vs. non-Limited Desolidification).

Which contradicts some official published builds, such as Supernova's ability to explore the inside of stars by use of Desolidification.

[Hyper-Man]

Which contradicts some official published builds, such as Supernova's ability to explore the inside of stars by use of Desolidification.

I think you misunderstand my meaning. Supernova has normal or un-limited Desolidification defined with one thing it is affected by (like NND's). No points are saved by this. She should be able to use it that way.

I was referring to my earlier posts in this thread talking about Desol with the Limitation: Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (which still stops damage). 5er suggests this as a way to model Plastic-Man/Mr. Fantastic ability to withstand any impact damage. However Falling Damage is not covered since it is considered Environmental.

Usually, good character design is not going pin a character's survivability on just 1 power like desol. Super-Nova as well as most good stretching characters have other well defined defenses as well.

[SteveZilla]

I think you misunderstand my meaning. Supernova has normal or un-limited Desolidification defined with one thing it is affected by (like NND's). No points are saved by this. She should be able to use it that way.

I think I misunderstood you as well. I thought your statement was referring to "Limited Invulnerability" by using Desolidification's abiltiy to ignore any amount of damage, and limit it to a specific F/X (like fire/silver/magic/etc.).


I was referring to my earlier posts in this thread talking about Desol with the Limitation: Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (which still stops damage). 5er suggests this as a way to model Plastic-Man/Mr. Fantastic ability to withstand any impact damage. However Falling Damage is not covered since it is considered Environmental.

Not all abilities seen in a comic book translate easily and completely (some not at all) into a game system. This could be one that doesn't survive unchanged.


Usually, good character design is not going pin a character's survivability on just 1 power like desol. Super-Nova as well as most good stretching characters have other well defined defenses as well.

Like Damage Reduction? :)

IMO if a character cannot "flow" instead of just stretching and squishing (Odo vs Mr Fantastic), they should buy Damage Reduction instead of Desolidificaiton. I know that seems like splitting hairs, but that's the way I would prefer seeing the slightly different abilities built.

[prestidigitator]

IMO if a character cannot "flow" instead of just stretching and squishing (Odo vs Mr Fantastic), they should buy Damage Reduction instead of Desolidificaiton. I know that seems like splitting hairs, but that's the way I would prefer seeing the slightly different abilities built.
Well, for that matter DCV Levels or extra defenses could work for that SFX too.

[SteveZilla]

Well, for that matter DCV Levels or extra defenses could work for that SFX too.

Personally, I wince at the "DCV Levels = Harder To Inflict Damage On" F/X. To me, it's confusing Harder to Damage with Harder to Hit. As a consequence, they wouldn't take Knockback when (IMO) they should. And AoE attacks sidesteps those DCV levels and damages them out of proportion from what their F/X would otherwise indicate.

The extra defenses, however, would be appropriate and function more or less in line with the stated F/X. But if taken too far, they will be "bouncing bullets" as well or better than the team Brick. Which is why I think these kinds of charaters are best suited to buying Damage Reduction. They can be hit more easily than the speedster and hurt more easily than the Brick, yet can still take a good pounding.

[prestidigitator]

Personally, I wince at the "DCV Levels = Harder To Inflict Damage On" F/X. To me, it's confusing Harder to Damage with Harder to Hit. As a consequence, they wouldn't take Knockback when (IMO) they should. And AoE attacks sidesteps those DCV levels and damages them out of proportion from what their F/X would otherwise indicate.
I was thinking more of the character being able to actively flow around the attack and thus more easily avoid being hit at all.


The extra defenses, however, would be appropriate and function more or less in line with the stated F/X. But if taken too far, they will be "bouncing bullets" as well or better than the team Brick. Which is why I think these kinds of charaters are best suited to buying Damage Reduction. They can be hit more easily than the speedster and hurt more easily than the Brick, yet can still take a good pounding.
Sure. As you will.

[SteveZilla]

I was thinking more of the character being able to actively flow around the attack and thus more easily avoid being hit at all.

Oh, okay. :) Perhaps DCV levels bought with Costs Endurance? Or just plain old Martial Dodge?

[prestidigitator]

Oh, okay. :) Perhaps DCV levels bought with Costs Endurance? Or just plain old Martial Dodge?
Sure. At this point, though, I think we are getting down to the level of detail where no particular build could really be, "correct" (or rather, many are equally correct). The idea that an amorphous consistency of some kind can be used to avoid attacks as well as be somewhat, "immune," to them is as far as I am willing to commit on the matter. ;)

[SteveZilla]

Sure. At this point, though, I think we are getting down to the level of detail where no particular build could really be, "correct" (or rather, many are equally correct). The idea that an amorphous consistency of some kind can be used to avoid attacks as well as be somewhat, "immune," to them is as far as I am willing to commit on the matter. ;)

Yeah, I think we've gone about as far down this road as needs to be explored. ;)

But I think that those of an amorphous consistency should be built consistently amorphous. :winkgrin:


That's a joke... I say, that's a joke, son.