Speed Force, too unbalanced?

[specks]

Some are starting to complain that the speed force may be too unbalanced to play. What do you think?

I know many of you don't have the book yet so follow ths link to read what some are saying.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45916

Sorry if I'm jumping the gun but just want to get early impressions :)

Was going too make a poll but thought of against it. Now just want some comments.

Thank you :)

[megaplayboy]

I think it's great, I just regret they haven't done this with all Ultimate books:
TUMM has "Enter the Macroverse/Enter the Microverse"
TUS has "Enter the Speed zone"
TUMystic could have had "Enter the Astral Plane" for combat outside of "normal" reality. (Maybe it does, i don't own the book).
TUMentalist could have "Enter the Psychic Plane"
TUVehicle could have "Enter the Freeway" for vehicle-only encounters
TUBrick could have "Enter the Flex Zone" where time stops while dueling bricks flex their muscles until the biggest and buffest one wins


:p :D

[Derek Hiemforth]

Of course it's ridiculously unbalanced. So are the characters who could use it. That's why there are Stop Signs and GM warnings all over it. :)

Like I said in the other thread, it's like MegaScale. It's a tool that allows you to handle some effects that are otherwise difficult or impossible to handle.

[OddHat]

Derek is absolutely on target, and rep to him.

I've allowed something like the Speed Zone in a one player game. It worked fine, and let me explore adventures with a ridiculously powerful Super without spending huge numbers of points on a complicated build.

In a group game, I probably wouldn't allow it unless every PC was absurdly powerful.

[CrosshairCollie]

Of course it's ridiculously unbalanced. So are the characters who could use it. That's why there are Stop Signs and GM warnings all over it. :)

Like I said in the other thread, it's like MegaScale. It's a tool that allows you to handle some effects that are otherwise difficult or impossible to handle.

If anybody ever does take it, you should get a rubber stamp with the Stop Sign and GM Warning symbols on them and apply them to the players' hands when he reaches for dice. ;)

[Bloodstone]

My copy of TUS hasn't arrived yet and I didn;t look at this section of the book when I was at the FLGS...With that in mind:

Is the Speed Zone anymore imbalanced then a character that is Invisibile, Desoldified and has attacks that are Affects Physical world?

Or a character with EDM and Transdimensional senses/atacks (which is how I have built the Speed Force power of the Flash)?

These are intended as honest queestions, since I realy don't know the mechanics of what we are discussing yet...

[OddHat]

Or a character with EDM and Transdimensional senses/atacks (which is how I have built the Speed Force power of the Flash)?


That's pretty much it, with more bells and whistles.

[specks]

I didn't mean to cause a ruckus here (and I hope I didn't) and you're probably right. Any power can be abused as written if the GM allows to be.

I just had a feeling that with the mention of the speed force would garner a reaction that many would say it's just too powerful for my game. On the other hand some would say this was badly needed and would answer alot of questions as to how to set something up like this.

Like I said before, sorry if I reacted to quickly but I just wanted some early reaction.

Oh yeah, if you guys are big into the Wild, Wild West televison series (Season One on DVD now), you may want to check out an episode The Night of the Burning Diamond. The villian burns diamonds down to liquid form to accelerate his body at hyperspeed (he's also invisible) but the side effect is that simple chemicals (i.e alcohol) can burn him up.

Thanks :)

[CrosshairCollie]

That's pretty much it, with more bells and whistles.

On the upside, this will help me stat out Hammy the Squirrel on caffeine.

[Egyptoid]

Speed Zone is like every other application of Ex-Dim.

Only things bought Trans-Dim come along with it.

Its only as gross as Desolid for the same reason.


bricks flex their muscles until the biggest and buffest one wins
LOL. happens every other episode of Naruto. :o

[Killer Shrike]

My copy of TUS hasn't arrived yet and I didn;t look at this section of the book when I was at the FLGS...With that in mind:

Is the Speed Zone anymore imbalanced then a character that is Invisibile, Desoldified and has attacks that are Affects Physical world?

Or a character with EDM and Transdimensional senses/atacks (which is how I have built the Speed Force power of the Flash)?

These are intended as honest queestions, since I realy don't know the mechanics of what we are discussing yet...
For starters there are the extra actions to contend with. A person taking actions in the Speed Zone resolves all of their actions at their DEX on the Phase they entered the Speed Zone in. So if the character enters the Speed Zone on Dex 35 in Phase 2 they can take some number of unopposed actions between 1 and 12 (based upon the level of the Speed Zone they can access and an Advantage for a 1/2 or 0 Phase entry into the Zone), all of which resolve simultaneously at DEX 35 when he falls out of the Speed Zone.

People are at OCV / DCV 0 vs attacks from the Speed Zone, not 1/2 DCV. They also can't Abort to defensive actions vs attacks from the Speed Zone.

In fact other characters can not only not react to attacks from the Speed Zone, they can't even PERCEIVE them with any normal or any of the usual exotic senses until after they have all been resolved; it requires a specialzied use of the Rapid modifier at high levels to detect a person moving in the Speed Zone.

And even if you can perceive them you still can't do anything about what you perceive -- inculding Abort to a defensive action against them as was previously mentioned.

You can also have attacks Usable vs Desolid, but even transdimensional attacks are ineffective against people in the Speed Zone because they are only ever in the Speed Zone for one DEX count on their Phase.

Also, characters that are Desolid or EDM in standard fashion must apply an expensive advantage to all of the abilities they want to use to affect the physical world. A person using the Speed Zone need only buy Transdimensional as a Naked Power Advantage on their Strength to be able to affect the world normally with all of their abilities.

So, yes, they are more unbalanced and for a variety of reasons.

[nexus]

That's pretty sick.

[Bloodstone]

Well, after that explaination, I am inclined to agree :(

[Derek Hiemforth]

If I were to ever allow a PC to have the ability to enter the Speed Zone, I would -- at a minimum -- impose the following restrictions:

1. You cannot take Reduced END on your "Enter the Speed Zone" power. You'll be paying full END for it every Phase you're in there.

2. While you're in the Speed Zone, you are -- relative to the world now around you -- no longer moving at superspeed. In other words, your superfast running is only superfast relative to the Slow POV world... not relative to the Fast POV Speed Zone. While in the Speed Zone, your running is just running. Therefore, Lockout is a required Limitation (for no cost savings) on your "Enter The Speed Zone" power. As long as you're in the Speed Zone, you can't use any other powers that have superspeed as their special effect. (Having no access to their superspeed powers will nerf most speedsters pretty substantially.)

[Bloodstone]

2. While you're in the Speed Zone, you are -- relative to the world now around you -- no longer moving at superspeed. In other words, your superfast running is only superfast relative to the Slow POV world... not relative to the Fast POV Speed Zone. While in the Speed Zone, your running is just running. Therefore, Lockout is a required Limitation (for no cost savings) on your "Enter The Speed Zone" power. As long as you're in the Speed Zone, you can't use any other powers that have superspeed as their special effect. (Having no access to their superspeed powers will nerf most speedsters pretty substantially.)

I'm not really seeing that matching the source material. And lets face it, in this case the source material is mainly the stuff that DC has done with the Flash Family in the last decade or so. Your idea above would strike me as more of the 'Caffine Zone' from "Over the Hedge" ;)

It also probably means that if you are going to play a Speed Zone using Speedster, you will buy Speedster martial arts and extra DC's so you can do damage without relying on your Speedster powers.

[Log-Man]

I'm not really seeing that matching the source material. And lets face it, in this case the source material is mainly the stuff that DC has done with the Flash Family in the last decade or so. Your idea above would strike me as more of the 'Caffine Zone' from "Over the Hedge" ;) ...
The Caffeine Zone...Yes! I love it :D I'm going to have to do something with this...

[Derek Hiemforth]

I'm not really seeing that matching the source material.Yeah, I think I had my brain in backwards. ;)

It would make sense to not allow them to use their superspeed powers against other characters in the Speed Zone (because they're moving at the same relative speed). But yeah, they should still be able to clobber people outside the Speed Zone. :)

[Egyptoid]

killer shrike hits it on the head.
it can be like buying your whole character on auto-fire...

but do buy the book, the speed-zone is only a portion.

[Dr. Anomaly]

The Caffeine Zone...Yes! I love it :D I'm going to have to do something with this...
I haven't seen Over The Hedge yet; this reminds me of that episode of Futurama.

[Log-Man]

I haven't seen Over The Hedge yet; this reminds me of that episode of Futurama.
I'm sure the Over the Hedge creative team had to be inspired by that Futurama sequence. It was the first thing I thought of too, and I actually wondered if they were going to use that schtick. Even knowing it's coming won't spoil it, though. Just a great scene in a great movie. Now we have two official sightings of The Caffeine Zone in action...so it must exist!





I obviously need more caffeine... :angst:

[Bloodstone]

Three if you count the hyperactive power of Twitchy the Squirrel Photojournalist in the movie Hoodwinked (which was released before Over the Hedge).

[Hyper-Man]

http://www.wavcentral.com/sounds/movies/dante/dpcof.mp3

[Log-Man]

Three if you count the hyperactive power of Twitchy the Squirrel Photojournalist in the movie Hoodwinked (which was released before Over the Hedge).
Haven't seen that one yet, but it's on my list. It disappeared too quickly, and I've heard it's pretty funny.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Now we have two official sightings of The Caffeine Zone in action...so it must exist!
I'll tack on another, though I admit it's largely circumstantial:

We all know how much store Dan Simon puts in caffiene. We also know how fast he pumps out code fixes... :sneaky:

[Log-Man]

I'll tack on another, though I admit it's largely circumstantial:

We all know how much store Dan Simon puts in caffiene. We also know how fast he pumps out code fixes... :sneaky:
Doesn't count. It's an established fact that Dan is a mutant.



:whistle:

[megaplayboy]

I kinda like the idea of entering the speed zone and macroverse simultaneously and doing eternal hyperspeed battle with the light-year sized Azathoth thru all eternity.:D

[Bloodstone]

And here I thought he was a "Code Monkey"... man, this topic drifted far fast...

[Log-Man]

And here I thought he was a "Code Monkey"... ...
...And who, disguised as mild mannered Dan Simon by day, fights a never ending battle for truth and justice as Code Monkey, mutant speedster from another world...

man, this topic drifted far fast
Heh, amateur. Watch this: Spider-Man could-- :hush: :hush: :hush:






Mmmph?

[Enforcer84]

And here I thought he was a "Code Monkey"... man, this topic drifted far fast...
Now you've done it.


Code Monkey
Jonathan Coulton


Code Monkey Get up Get Coffee
Code Monkey Got to job
Code Monkey have boring meeting
with boring manager Rob
Rob Say Code Monkey very diligent
But his output stink
His code not funtional or elegant
what do Code Monkey think

Code Mokey think
maybe manager wanna write goddamn login page himself
Code Monkey not say it out loud
Code Monkey not crazy just proud

Code Monkey Like Fritoes
Code Monkey Like Tab and Moutain Dew
Code Monkey very simple man
big warm fuzzy secret heart
Code Monkey Like you
Code Monkey Like you

Code Monkey Hang around at Front desk
tell you sweater look nice
Code Monkey offer buy you soda
bring you cup bring you ice
You say no thank you for the soda cause
soda make you fat
Anyway you busy with the Telephone
no time for chat

Code Monkey have long walk back to cubical
he sit down pretend to work
Code Monkey not thinking
so straight
Code Monkey not feeling
so great

Code Monkey Like Fritoes
Code Monkey Like Tab and Moutain Dew
Code Monkey very simple man
big warm fuzzy secret heart
Code Monkey Like you
Code Monkey Like you....alot

Code Monkey have every reason
to get out this place
Code Monkey just keep on working
See your soft pretty face
much rather wake up eat a coffe cake
take bath take nap
This Job fullfilling in creative ways
Such a load of crap

Code Monkey think someday he have everything
even pretty girl like you
Code Monkey just waiting
for now
Code Monkey says someday
somehow

Code Monkey Like Fritoes
Code Monkey Like Tab and Moutain Dew
Code Monkey very simple man
big warm fuzzy secret heart
Code Monkey Like you
Code Monkey Like you

Songs by Jonathan Coulton (Props to Proditor who pointed out the link) (http://www.jonathancoulton.com/songs)

...whew, could have used superspeed to transcribe that one...

[sbarron]

but do buy the book, the speed-zone is only a portion.I get so excited when they add new tools to my Hero tool box, I wouldn't think of not buying a product because it has a rule that seems overpowered. This game isn't balanced by itself out of the box. And HERO just found a way to bridge the gap between abilities in the comics and abilities in the game. I think that this ability sounds great. I really hope HERO keeps thinking outside the box like this...

[Lord Mhoram]

I get so excited when they add new tools to my Hero tool box, I wouldn't think of not buying a product because it has a rule that seems overpowered. This game isn't balanced by itself out of the box. And HERO just found a way to bridge the gap between abilities in the comics and abilities in the game. I think that this ability sounds great. I really hope HERO keeps thinking outside the box like this...

Yeah - I read that and thought "we can finally do the Flash with HERO"

I saw the rules and given the point cost involved, and the way the rules are, it isn't really that unbalanced - if you wanted to get to act more than once in the speed zone you are looking at a minimum investment of about 100 points - that would get you 3 actions in the speed zone before you have to drop back down. So I would easily allow it, on the grounds of power level, if it were on the low end of the Speed Zone stuff, in a game.
However it can have the same thing as a "netrunner" problem, or the problem of 1st ed D&D psionics. All of the speedster's actions are on his dex and segment when he enters the Speed Zone - so if he has three actions, he does his three actions, while the rest of the group just sits and watches... and as the speedster likely has a higher speed than the rest of the group, that would just make the problem worse. I could see that impacting the enjoyment of the group as a whole. And to me that could be a huge problem.

Other than that I love the rules. I play a speedster, so a number of the ideas and builds in the book were wonderful. :)

[digital_lorax]

I find the speed zone a neat power, and have used its concept as time stopping already. As well as using ED travel for astral travel rather than the duplication morass.

However, I wouldn't allow it mainly because it of metagaming issues. Like the netrunner issue above, it gives one player too many actions. In a solo game, or one when everyone has it, it could be fine, but unfortunately some players already drift their attention away when it isn't their turn and this would just make the problem worse.

[Lord Mhoram]

I was just rereading the Speed Zone rules, and either I'm reading something wrong, or there is something a little wonky for it at low levels.

All the following is assuming the Millispeed level:

At the 22 point level you get one extra phase subjectively. However, at the non advantaged level of the power, you have to spend your first subjective phase entering the Speed Zone. So you spend your regular phase to enter the zone, you spend you addtional subjective phase entering the zone, and you then drop out without doing anything.

And if you read that as an "extra phase after entering the speed zone" then you get two phases, which is the same as the 52 pt level.

So as far as I can see, taking the 22 pt Enter the Speed Zone power, with no level modifiers or using the "quick entrance" advantages is basically worthless.

[Killer Shrike]

I was just rereading the Speed Zone rules, and either I'm reading something wrong, or there is something a little wonky for it at low levels.

All the following is assuming the Millispeed level:

At the 22 point level you get one extra phase subjectively. However, at the non advantaged level of the power, you have to spend your first subjective phase entering the Speed Zone. So you spend your regular phase to enter the zone, you spend you addtional subjective phase entering the zone, and you then drop out without doing anything.

And if you read that as an "extra phase after entering the speed zone" then you get two phases, which is the same as the 52 pt level.

So as far as I can see, taking the 22 pt Enter the Speed Zone power, with no level modifiers or using the "quick entrance" advantages is basically worthless.

Thats not how I read it.

At the 22 point level you enter the zone, stay in the zone long enough to take a single Phase, and then exit the zone immediately. This is consistent with a 2 SPD -- 1 Phase is spent entering the zone, 1 Phase is usable as an action.

At the 52 point level you enter the zone and stay in the zone for a full (speed zone) turn. The number of Phases you can take based upon your speed zone SPD is irrelevant to that; whether its a 2 SPD or a 12 SPD you stay in the zone for a full speed zone turn.

[Lord Mhoram]

Thats not how I read it.

At the 22 point level you enter the zone, stay in the zone long enough to take a single Phase, and then exit the zone immediately. This is consistent with a 2 SPD -- 1 Phase is spent entering the zone, 1 Phase is usable as an action.

At the 52 point level you enter the zone and stay in the zone for a full (speed zone) turn. The number of Phases you can take based upon your speed zone SPD is irrelevant to that; whether its a 2 SPD or a 12 SPD you stay in the zone for a full speed zone turn.

I can see that, but by that reading there is almost no difference between the 22 & 52 point levels if you move at Millispeed level.

At 22 - you move into the Zone, take an extra phase drop out.
At 52 - you move into the Zone, blow the first phase of your 2 speed entering the zone, get your actual extra phase, get a post 12 and drop out.
So the only real difference I can see between those is the post 12.
Now you may be right, but it just seems a little wonky to me.


On another note, one of the things I found interesting was that because you have to pay end for entering the speed zone every phase, you cannot go into the Zone to take a bunch of recoveries.

[nexus]

Maybe if you got the ability 0 Endurance you could take recoveries?

I don't think I'll be using the Speed Zone. The ability to act with almost complete immunity while your opponents are essentially helpless (0 Comb at value with notthing they can do about it) even perceive the attack which would cancel some defenses. Character relaying on Combat Luck, Sheilds, Sectional armor or any defense that requires some activation or awareness are screwed. It does simulate the abilities of some high end speedster very well, but it seems, at least for my game, one of those abilities that works in fiction because the writer tightly controls it and too potentially abusive or unbalanced in game. Just my opinion about it

[Lord Mhoram]

Maybe if you got the ability 0 Endurance you could take recoveries?


Well yeah. :)

I agree, I wouldn't let it go without major limitations. I'd insist on limitations like "only once per turn" or per minute, so the character could hit it, but generally only once a combat, and I'd only allow one or two phases in the Speed Zone. That way you get your one or two really efffective attacks/special off, have the nifty of the concept and using your special effects, but it wouldn't be too unbalancing, I think. Also at that point you are looking at 80 or so active points, and I could see that. But that would only be in a higher powered game as well. :)

[Killer Shrike]

I can see that, but by that reading there is almost no difference between the 22 & 52 point levels if you move at Millispeed level.

At 22 - you move into the Zone, take an extra phase drop out.
At 52 - you move into the Zone, blow the first phase of your 2 speed entering the zone, get your actual extra phase, get a post 12 and drop out.
So the only real difference I can see between those is the post 12.
Now you may be right, but it just seems a little wonky to me.

The difference is that while you are in the zone you can react and maintain your DCV vs other people in the zone. The 22 pt Speedster is as helpless as every one else is vs the 52 pt Speedster after they take their extra action and fall out of the zone.

It is also necessary to have the 52 point level if you want to increase your Speed Zone SPD.

[cturnitsa]

Hey - the Imbalance is the poor GM's mind who allows such powers in a game, and then gets upset when they get used. As a GM, be sure you know what you are letting in your game. Some powers and combinations of powers are just naughty, and the GM should think long and hard before allowing them.


My copy of TUS hasn't arrived yet and I didn;t look at this section of the book when I was at the FLGS...With that in mind:

Is the Speed Zone anymore imbalanced then a character that is Invisibile, Desoldified and has attacks that are Affects Physical world?

Or a character with EDM and Transdimensional senses/atacks (which is how I have built the Speed Force power of the Flash)?

These are intended as honest queestions, since I realy don't know the mechanics of what we are discussing yet...

[Lord Mhoram]

The difference is that while you are in the zone you can react and maintain your DCV vs other people in the zone. The 22 pt Speedster is as helpless as every one else is vs the 52 pt Speedster after they take their extra action and fall out of the zone.

It is also necessary to have the 52 point level if you want to increase your Speed Zone SPD.

The second I had considered, the first I had not. Good point.