Magic Missiles

[bafzoul]

Forgive me if this has been posted somewhere. I was looking for a write up for the AD&D spell magic missiles. I am not sure how to write up a spell that always hits and does damage to almost anything.

Thanks

[CrosshairCollie]

Always Does Damage: NND, Does Body (defense is Shield spell or similar protections)

Always Hits: AE One Hex Accurate with a small metric squidload of Levels to go with it.

Somewhere within Fantasy Hero there are guidelines for making absolute powers, where the GM just waves his hands at some point and says, 'You've put enough points into this power, it just works, period'.

[Killer Shrike]

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry&Category=Evocation&Provider=Killer%20Shrike#Magic Missile

[mayapuppies]

You can also go here: http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.shtml for tons of D&D spell write-ups as well as many other helpful tidbits

[Old Man]

Uh...Magic Missile only hits living targets.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

I can think of 3 ways to build it, the good, the bad and the horribly broken

1) good: AoE 1 hex accurate affects desolid NND EB (not does body as 1d4+1 damage per missle hardly does body to a DnD character,)

2) bad: AoE 1 hex accurate as above but megascaled so 1 hex = the world (this way you can't DFC from it, which i don't like but may appeal to some)

3) The Horribly broken (and my favorite) build it as a summon which continues to attempt movebys on the target until it succeds.

[Frenchman]

Here's our group's take on it:

Magic Missile: EB 1d6, Costs END only for the 'first' shot of a volley (+1/4), Indirect (Any origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), NND (Shield Spell; +1), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (34 Active Points); Requires A Magic Roll (Autofire Hits are determined by Magic Roll, not attack roll; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

With the combination of Hex Accurate and No Range Mod, we just waive the attack roll and determine the number of hits from the Magic Roll instead of the attack roll. We also use END only to activate in a funny way, so you pay the same END cost regardless of how many missiles are in a volley.

[JohnTaber]

Steve wrote it up in Digital Hero as well. I don't remember the number...it was pretty expensive as I recall... ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

Steve wrote it up in Digital Hero as well. I don't remember the number...it was pretty expensive as I recall... ;)

I don't recall the # either, but IIRC, it addressed always doing damage, always hitting and getting more missiles at greater power levels, so it was a thorough job. As I recall, much of the cost related to getting multiple missiles, so a 1 missile version for a neophyte wizard would be more manageable in terms of cost. It is a very powerful effect, however.

[Steve Long]

I covered this in my HEROglyphs column in DH #2. ;)

[gojira]

On the other hand, there's a Mystic Bolt in Sidekick that combines One Hex AoE and No Range Modifier. It's under the section of Example Powers.

It's not a perfect adaptation of Magic Missle, but it's pretty close. As long as you can hit DCV 3 and make your magic skill roll, you get the damage.

[prestidigitator]

Oy. Probably the single most annoying spell to convert. If you want to model the effects as closely as possible it can get very complex and expensive. If you want a basic attack that can ignore some DCV and/or defense, it can be pretty easy. Remember that D&D models everything with Armor Class, whereas Hero has both a mechanic to evade (DCV) and a mechanic to prevent/reduce damage (various forms of DEF). So the question of how, "always hits in D&D," translates into Hero is not a very trivial one.

I've done conversions of Magic Missile several times, sometimes from builds that look about like KS's and sometimes as something dirt simple, like an EB (remember EBs can be spread, so there's your, "multiple missiles," right there) and a few 2-point CSLs.

[AlHazred]

I liked Steve's version, but removed all those levels and just added NCM. I prefer "really easy to hit with" to "never misses" in my games.

[Savinien]

I shoot the darkness with my magic missile!

[Erkenfresh]

What is this "Non-Standard Attack Power" advantage people are using? :stupid:

Personally, I'd go without the Does BODY but otherwise agree with KS's writeup.

[Frenchman]

What is this "Non-Standard Attack Power" advantage people are using? :stupid:
Its a +1 advantage that is applied when an attack with area of effect, NND, AVLD (either naturally or because its an adjustment/sense affecting power), Explosion, BOECV (either naturally or because its a mental power), or anything else the GM decides is incredibly effective with autofire. On page 252 of ReFred, under AutoFire.


Personally, I'd go without the Does BODY but otherwise agree with KS's writeup.
I go with it for three reasons:
1 - Magic Missile can harm undead, who take no stun.
2 - Magic Missile should be able to do KB, in my view. I also think it should be able to harm objects, as long as they aren't in the control of another creature.
3 - Not even a 20th level character with ~100 hp can withstand 30 magic missiles (6 castings at that level, some written up mages can get that off in 3 rounds or less) without healing or some kind of defense. Therefore, they do body. Not much body, but a little bit. If you don't want them to do body most of the time, then make 'em a 1/2 d6 EB, they only do body on a 4, 5, or 6.

[Hugh Neilson]

Therefore, they do body. Not much body, but a little bit. If you don't want them to do body most of the time, then make 'em a 1/2 d6 EB, they only do body on a 4, 5, or 6.

You could make them 1 point, and rule you still roll a d6, and do 1 BOD only on a 6, if you want really minor BOD. That would mean more than 6 castings required, however.

[Hugh Neilson]

Therefore, they do body. Not much body, but a little bit. If you don't want them to do body most of the time, then make 'em a 1/2 d6 EB, they only do body on a 4, 5, or 6.

You could make them 1 point, and rule you still roll a d6, and do 1 BOD only on a 6, if you want really minor BOD. That would mean more than 6 castings required, however.

[CourtFool]

Oy. Probably the single most annoying spell to convert.

I disagree. I think Sleep is. A single, suposedly low level spell that effectively knocks a target unconcious with one fell swoop.

Oh wait! Strike that. Wish is. Don't come near me with that EDM!

[Erkenfresh]

I disagree. I think Sleep is. A single, suposedly low level spell that effectively knocks a target unconcious with one fell swoop.

Oh wait! Strike that. Wish is. Don't come near me with that EDM!

How would you limit the Sleep spell only to work on level 5 or lower creatures like D&D does? ;)

The reason I'd go with STUN only magic missiles is because they don't affect physical non-living objects and it's effective enough to knock someone that is alive unconcious without reducing their BODY to zip.

If you build Undead as automatons, then yes, it wouldn't work against them. But, techinically, they are non-living objects and really D&D's magic missile shouldn't have worked on them either. So, it's the D&D material that's wrong, not HERO.

[Frenchman]

If you build Undead as automatons, then yes, it wouldn't work against them. But, techinically, they are non-living objects and really D&D's magic missile shouldn't have worked on them either. So, it's the D&D material that's wrong, not HERO.
I agree, it's D&Ds fault:eg:
Thats why I say they can do body and destroy objects, because they are a manifestation of Force. If they were 'spirit energy' or something else that interacted in a special way with living/undead things, then I'd agree with you, but if I'm keeping the sFX of Force Bolts, then they can hurt just about anything and deal body.

[prestidigitator]

I disagree. I think Sleep is. A single, suposedly low level spell that effectively knocks a target unconcious with one fell swoop.

Oh wait! Strike that. Wish is. Don't come near me with that EDM!
Perhaps. Those have their issues too, but I just never seem to find them quite as annoying as Magic Missile for some reason. I can usually go pretty directly to Ego Blast or a Mental Entangle for Sleep, and if we really want to make system for Wish, there's always VPPs and Transforms (I seriously can't stand the EDM solution either).

But Magic Missile? That, "basic first level attack spell," that just about every magic user winds up with and that clashes so harshly with the Hero mechanics...? I don't know. It just grates on my nerves most times.

[Rapier]

Magic Missles is one of "those issues" with Hero System.

It all comes back to the Invulnerability thing.

Hero doesn't deal well with absolutes (and IMO, rightly so). Magic Missles ALWAYS hit and Invulnerabilty means you NEVER take damage.

Hero doesn't do those well. There are ALWAYS ways around it, but it's not like there is a clear, cut-and-dried method.

As far as I'm concerned, that is a good thing. There SHOULD be no absolutes. I lvl 1 mage should not be able to pepper a lvl 100 demilich with pissy little missles.

[Blue Jogger]

Usually we use something like this:

2D6 RKA, Area Effect: Accurate

It's usually the most effective Magic Missile for the number of points spent.

Of course, if the GM allows, you could use a Change Environment with the limitation Instant to cover an area with magic missiles for a phase (and do 1-3 points of damage to those in the area). :sneaky:

[Hierax]

FWIW, here's some MM stuff:

Magic Missile Damage:
AD&D: RKA d6-1 (10 Base Points)
xD&D Average: RKA d6 (15 Base Points)
Basic D&D: RKA d6+1 (20 Base Points)
Magic Missile Options:
Always Hits/Never Misses:

OCV + x (many people)
Area of Effect (One Hex, Accurate) and Line of Sight (+½)
Area of Effect (Mega-Scale, Accurate/Selective Target)
BOECV
Doesn’t Miss (“Indiana” Joe Claffey, Vendark) +1
Hierax House Rule: "Always Hits Advantage" (AHA) for +1 = the semi-official Area of Effect (One Hex, Accurate) and Line of Sight (+½). Similar concept to NND but essentially just "No Normal DCV" also for +1 and requires +1 more for Does BODY. The "Absolute Effect Rule" (FH.250-251) would seem to allow for this (just not bothering with the massive +OCV Kludge).
Actually Can Miss: Note officially older Original and Basic D&D Magic Missiles were just like a +1 Arrow that could miss!
Always Damages:

AVLD (+1½), Does BODY (+1) vs. ? force field, power def, ...
NND (+1; vs ...), Does BODY (+1)
Penetrating (+½)
Multiple Missiles:

Autofire (AF)
Multiple Attack Advantage (MAA)
Rapid Fire
Reduced Penetration (large attack divided up)Magic Missile Sample:
MAGIC MISSILE 5: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1, Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +¼), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; DCV 3; +½), No Normal Defense (Shield Spell, or Brooch of Shielding, or Not Visible to Caster; +1), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (3 shots; +¼), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (50 Active Points); Can Not Target Specific Hit Locations (DH2.4-5; -½), Inanimate Objects Can Not Be Damaged (-¼), No Knockback (-¼).
MAGIC MISSILE 6: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1, Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +¼), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; DCV 3; +½), Line Of Sight (+½), Affects Desolidified Any form (+½), No Normal Defense (Shield Spell, or Brooch of Shielding, or Not Visible to Caster; +1), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (3 shots; +¼), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (60 Active Points); Can Not Target Specific Hit Locations (DH2.4-5; -½), Inanimate Objects Can Not Be Damaged (-¼), No Knockback (-¼). Official (or semi-official) Hero Versions:
Magical Missile: RKA 1 point, NND (defense is certain specific spells or talismans, or being an unloving inanimate object; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate; +½), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Line Of Sight (maximum range of 15” + [3” per level of power]; +¼) (21 Active Points); Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), Limited Rapid Fire (only one “shot” per 10 Experience Points earned, and no target can be more than 2” from another target; -¼), Cannot Use Targeting (-½), No Knockback (-¼) (total cost: 8 points) plus +20 with Magical Missile (total cost: 40 points). Total cost: 48 points.

(Steven S. Long, Digital Hero #2, July/Aug 2002, p.4-5)


Wizard’s Missile: RKA 1d6, Increased Maximum Range (x5, or 550”; +¼), No Range Modifier (+½) (26 Active Points); OAF (Wizard’s Staff; -1), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), Requires A Magic Roll (-½). Total cost: 9 points.

(Hero Games Writers Guidelines p.21)


Magic Bolt: RKA 1d6, NND (defense is Power Defense; +1), Does BODY (+1) (45 Active Points); OAF (wizard’s staff; -1), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), Requires A Magic Roll (-½). Total cost: 15 points.

(Hero System Genre By Genre p.16)


Other Hero Versions:




Magic Missile (Hawkwind-1): RKA 1 pip (5 Base Points); Autofire (5; +½), No Range Penalty (+½), Penetrating (+½) (+1½; 12.5 Active Points); Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), only vs. animate targets (-¼) (-¾; 7 Real Points).
Magic Missile (Hawkwind-2): RKA 1d6-1 (10 Base Points); Autofire (5; +½), No Range Penalty (+½), Penetrating (+½) (+1½; 25 Active Points); Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), only vs. animate targets (-¼) (-¾; 14 Real Points).
Magic Missile (Hawkwind-3): RKA 1d6 (15 Base Points); Autofire (5; +½), No Range Penalty (+½), Penetrating (+½) (+1½; 37.5 Active Points); Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), only vs. animate targets (-¼) (-¾; 21 Real Points).
Magic Missile (Scott Nolan): RKA 1 pip (5 Base Points); NND (defense is ‘Shield’ spell or any of the numerous anti-magic-missile spells; +1), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (x5; +½), No Range Penalty (+½) (20 Active Points); Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), Requires Skill Roll (-½) (10 Real Points).
Magic Missile (Michael Harvey): RKA 1d6 (15 Base Points); Autofire (+½), NND (+1), Does BODY (+1), No Range Penalty (+½) (74 Active Points); Charges (1; -2), Extra Time (5 Minutes; -2), Delayed Effect (-½), Focus (IIF Spellbook, fragile, only for memorization; -½), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼), Can only memorize/prepare after 8 hours of sleep (-½) (11 Real Points).
plus OCV +7 with single attack (14 points)
Magic Missile (James Gillen): RKA 1d6-1 (10); Autofire, AP, No Range Penalty, (25 points); OCV +2 (35 points); not vs. the Shield spell (-1/4), not vs. inanimate objects (-1/2), no called shots (-1/4), Gestures, Incantations, Concentrate (½ DCV, -1/4), can’t cast in armor (-1/2), 3 charges, costs END (- 1¾) (-4; 7 Real Points).

[Hierax]

Here's a simple version of Magic Missile, the non-automatic hit, non-always damage version:
Magic Missile 3 (Original/Basic D&D): RKA 1d6+1 (20 Base Points); Penetrating (+½) (+½; 30 Active Points); Charges (1; -2), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼), Gestures (both hands; -½), Incantations (-¼), (-3; 7 Real Points).
Plus +1 OCV with Magic Missile Spell (2 points) (Total: 9 Real Points).N.B. This just uses the straight D&D damage of d6+1 but it would be a more in spirit conversion to allow for a variety of conversion of spell equivalents of the various Fantasy Hero versions of Longbows (FH.166 or EG.8):
Light Longbow +1 = 1½d6 or 2d6-1, +1 RMod
Medium Longbow +1 = 2d6, +1 RMod
Heavy Longbow +1 = 2d6+1, +1 RMod
Very Heavy Longbow +1 = 2½d6 or 3d6-1, +1 RModOne may also, or alternately, want to include Armor Piercing and/or Piercing (Resistant) depending on how one sees magical bows. And Intelligence (or EGO) Minimum could be used as a restriction for these too.

Conversion Source Text:

Original D&D (Greyhawk Rules Supplement 1976, p.22):
Magic Missile: This is a conjured missile equivalent to a magic arrow, and it does full damage (2-7 points) to any creature it strikes.For every five levels the magic-user has attained he may add an additional two missiles when employing this spell, so a 6th level magic-user may cast three magic missiles at his target, an 11th level magic-user casts five, and so on. Range 15".


Basic D&D (1979, p.13,15):
Magic Missile – Level 1; Range: 150 feet A conjured missile equal to a magic arrow, and it does 1 die roll plus 1 point (2-7) to any creature it strikes. Roll the missile fire like a long bow arrow (Missile Fire Table). Higher level magic-users fire more than one missile.

[Curufea]

Hero doesn't deal well with absolutes (and IMO, rightly so). Magic Missles ALWAYS hit and Invulnerabilty means you NEVER take damage.


I disagree.
If Magic Missiles always hit, then Hit Points must represent the thickness of your body, healthiness of the muscles, and inherent ablative armour that is gained at every level.
If Magic Missiles do not always hit, then Hit Points represent dodging of a character and/or fatigue - and the first several volleys of MM always "miss" (or do not hit the person) which is represented by loss of Hit Points that are representing fatigue of the high level character stepping out of the way.

The Absolute of the MM meeting the Abstract of HP cancels out.

(to be picky, once any affect in D&D starts doing HP damage, it is so abstracted that you can apply any effect you damn well please)

[Hierax]

Good point!

The "missed me" factor of Hit Points means that a hit isn't always a hit.

[CourtFool]

The "missed me" factor of Hit Points means that a hit isn't always a hit.

Then why do you need a Cleric to 'heal' you?

[Hierax]

Yeah, that's one of the problems with being too abstract.

Still, Curufea's point about Hit Points is the most creative argument/justification that I've ever seen for not actually needing a Hero-approximated Absolute to convert Magic Missile.

Personally, I like Hero better because it is less abstract (e.g., difference between "hitting" and "damaging") but it has to be careful as some builds are creeping in that create similar problems to D&D abstractness -- Combat Luck, I'm looking at you!

Anyway, how about some more MM write-ups.

[Egyptoid]

for magic missile, summon a loyal tiny creature with an area-effect damage shield, and move-through levels.

all it does is zoom to target, cause damage, and disappear.
scale up power to suit. it feels just like magic missile to me.

[CorpCommander]

1. Tell that to a level 1 mage. 1d4+1 sucks to those low HP back rank hidin' scum.

2 is clever but, eh. I wouldn't want that to become an example of what to do with spells that are less trivial.

3 is just out of character for the summon spell. Artillery, for instance, should not be bought as a summon.

I do have to say this though - why contemplate the never misses/absolutely hits all the time thing? Its not Heroish. Lets face it, DnD wasn't built on a set of principles from the get go (I'm old enough to remember the original soft bound books so I can attest to this.) Hits 90% of the time to primative screwheads in fantasy worlds IS THE SAME THING AS always hits! :thumbup:




I can think of 3 ways to build it, the good, the bad and the horribly broken

1) good: AoE 1 hex accurate affects desolid NND EB (not does body as 1d4+1 damage per missle hardly does body to a DnD character,)

2) bad: AoE 1 hex accurate as above but megascaled so 1 hex = the world (this way you can't DFC from it, which i don't like but may appeal to some)

3) The Horribly broken (and my favorite) build it as a summon which continues to attempt movebys on the target until it succeds.

[prestidigitator]

:sigh: Okay, for my version of an Advantage, see my old Automatic Hit Advantage (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29680) thread (note: the ensuing discussion is probably pretty necessary for grasping the full concept).

[Hierax]

Yeah, I use pretty much the same thing:

http://www.hierax.com/hero/house/aha.txt
Automatic Hit Advantage (AHA)

One thing that the HERO System lacks is a way to automatically hit
a target without having to make an attack roll, so I've created an
"Automatic Hit Advantage" (AHA).

The logic being that if the NND Advantage can bypass all of a
target's normal DEF, then there should be an Advantage to bypass all
of a target's normal DCV.

An attack with this Power Advantage ignores all conventional DCV.

When a character purchases an attack with the "Automatic Hit"
Advantage, he must define a reasonably common Power or circumstance,
or a set of uncommon Powers or circumstances as the defence. If the
target has this defence, then the attack misses completely.

N.B. This Advantage can't be used to unerringly target a specific
hit location.

AUTOMATIC HIT ATTACK COST MULTIPLIER: +1

If you don't like this I suggest that, in most cases, you use
Area Effect One Hex (+1/2) and No Range Penalty (+1/2) in its place
as combined they have give the same cost calculations -- i.e., merely
consider "AHA" as shorthand for these two limitations.

================================================== =====================

[Hyper-Man]

Just an observation...

This would not be so automatic when combined with Rapid Attack.

Dive For Cover would still work against this.

Question for the GM's out there:

When your NPC's are attacking characters with an AOE Power do you always describe the AOE nature of the attack? If not did you build the attack with some level of IPE to reflect this?

I ask this because not all common real-world AOE attacks are visible.

Example: Grenade

Characters might recognize the grenade for what it is but the physical casing does not convey it's explosive nature the same way as a blast from a Flamethrower.

[Curufea]

Then why do you need a Cleric to 'heal' you?
Shh!
I mentioned the war once, but I think I got away with it.

[/Basil Fawly]

[Hierax]

Personally, I'm quite OK with +1 Always Hits Advantage (AHA) and don't let things like Dive for Cover apply, the Area of Effect (AoE) etc. Advantages are just there so that Hero fans who can't handle absolutes can still use the write-ups.

I think it's faster and simplier to just let the damn thing hit than making an extra attack roll and/or jumping through a bunch of flaming hoops of twisted Advantages about it but the anti-absolutes crowd seems to be in the majority.

That said the beauty of the Hero System is to allow more than one way to write a power up so there's plenty of room for cool non-absolutist versions of Magic Missles too, I just don't see why it has to be one or the other, can't we have it both ways?

[CorpCommander]

I think it's faster and simplier to just let the damn thing hit than making an extra attack roll and/or jumping through a bunch of flaming hoops of twisted Advantages about it but the anti-absolutes crowd seems to be in the majority.

From a GM point of view its the type of advantage that could get severely abused. A smart and savvy GM won't get burned by it, knowing when to say no. An inexperienced one might not - and the player might not even being trying to munchkinize their character either.

Your thoughts about avoiding a lot of twisted advantages is totally dead on. :thumbup:

What an interesting thread by the way. I haven't been on these boards in MONTHS so its good to come back and see the discussions are as vibrant as ever.

[Curufea]

I still don't think Magic Missile always hits in D&D.
It always hits level 1 and 0 characters, but after that, everyone dodges/loses fatigue. Represented by the additional HP every class gets at higher levels.

[Hierax]

I just don't think that "always hitting" is any more powerful than "always doing damage" -- it is basically the same concept as NND.

Heck, if anything according to Hero costing guidelines it should be cheaper (OCV cost vs. DC cost) but due to the innate Hero fanbase resistance to Absolutes +1 seems to be the rough threshold of acceptability (especially because it still needs another +1 to Do BODY Damage (+2 total). YMMV.

So, yeah, AHA could be a great Advantage but so is NND. For Overpowered/Undercosted look more to MegaScale and the like.

I think there are a lot more things that the HERO system can simulate with NND than without and I think that AHA also adds rather than it takes away from the system.

[Hierax]

Let's not get hung up on one thing, there are other key aspects to the Magic Missile conversion:
Always Damages:

AVLD (+1½), Does BODY (+1) vs. ? force field, power def, ...
NND (+1; vs ...), Does BODY (+1)
Penetrating (+½)
Multiple Missiles:

Autofire (AF)
Multiple Attack Advantage (MAA)
Rapid Fire
Reduced Penetration (large attack divided up)

[prestidigitator]

Don't forget that multiple missiles can also be simulated by Spreading an EB.

[Rapier]

I still don't think Magic Missile always hits in D&D.
It always hits level 1 and 0 characters, but after that, everyone dodges/loses fatigue. Represented by the additional HP every class gets at higher levels.

I still don't understand where you are getting that HP represents some kind of fatigue. If you are standing naked in a room and someone sticks a knife into you, you take some HP in damage...that's damage not fatigue.


Hit Points - a number representing:
1) How much damage a character can suffer before being killed, determined by Hit Dice. The hit points lost to injust can usually be regained by rest or healing.

2) How much damage a specific attack does, determined by weapon or monster statistics, and subtracted from player's total.

Your personal take on HP may be something akin to fatigue or even magic fairy dust (for that matter), but it's certainly not canon and does not represent what the actual game itself says.

[Hugh Neilson]

I still don't understand where you are getting that HP represents some kind of fatigue. If you are standing naked in a room and someone sticks a knife into you, you take some HP in damage...that's damage not fatigue.

So a 20th level dwarven fighter with a 20 CON can soak up 214.5 (average rolls for 19 levels) damage, or well over 80 average dagger strikes, before being in any danger of death? That's as much as HOW MANY elephants again? And when he's at 2 hp (99% dead), he's pretty much unimpaired in any way, expect that the next hit will probably take him down?

The fatigue/luck factor may not be in 3e, but is the reason given in prior editions - only the last few hp represent that actual damaging blow that impairs, and ultimately kills, the target. It's also one reason given for many saving throws that improve with level - if that 20' scorpion only inflicted a tiny nick, did any significant venom actually get into the wound?


Your personal take on HP may be something akin to fatigue or even magic fairy dust (for that matter), but it's certainly not canon and does not represent what the actual game itself says.

Depends on the edition. ARE you arguing that a 12 CON wizard, 20th level (average hp 71.5) can actually take the same physical punishment as a dinosaur before keeling over?

[Hierax]

The DMG (1e p.82) defines Hit Points more clearly and there are clearly some evasion, combat experience, sixth-sense, luck, etc, elements to it.

"It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damages takes place. ..."

- Gary Gygax

[CourtFool]

The DMG (1e p.82) defines Hit Points more clearly and there are clearly some evasion, combat experience, sixth-sense, luck, etc, elements to it.

"It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damages takes place. ..."

- Gary Gygax


...and that is why Dex added to Hit Points, no wait...well at least that is why armor soaked up damage, er, no...

My own personal opinion is and feel free to disagree, although you will be wrong, is that they mechanic was flawed from the begining and they were just scrambling to apply some sort of logic to it.

In the same breath, I happen to like Combat Luck. But, yes, it is starting to swerve in the same direction.

While I like the idea of an Always Hits Advantage, I would be extremely hesitant to allow it into a game. This just may be because I seem to attract all the munchkins, but I can just see everyone buying AHA and no DEX or Combat Skill Levels. You could argue that it would be expensive and would leave your DCV vulnerable, but we all know the munchkins would find their way around that.

[Hugh Neilson]

While I like the idea of an Always Hits Advantage, I would be extremely hesitant to allow it into a game. This just may be because I seem to attract all the munchkins, but I can just see everyone buying AHA and no DEX or Combat Skill Levels. You could argue that it would be expensive and would leave your DCV vulnerable, but we all know the munchkins would find their way around that.

Well, if you assume that those extra points on DEX would find their way into PD and ED instead, who cares if you have a low DCV?

[Alcamtar]

In HERO, combat is a physical simulation. How long you stay standing is determined by physical parameters, whether or not that fits the needs of the story.

In D&D, combat is story-based. Hits and damage are abstract story elements that define the minimum and maximum rounds you can stay standing in combat. (Monsters always hit on a 20, and a hit always does at least 1 pt, so there is a finite cap on how long you can stay standing in combat.)

Therefore it is undefined in D&D whether or not a magic missile hits, or how much physical damage it does. Rather it is a plot device that hinders or kills low level goons easily, but can be mostly ignored by powerful heroes.

Magic Missile also disrupts spell casting, but that is a general feature of D&D combat and is probably best modeled by requiring Concentation: 0 DCV on all spells. Either you're a sitting duck, or you abort the spell and defend yourself.

VERSION 1: A major attack with a low OCV would take out goons but not affect powerful characters. RKA 3d6 Energy, cannot penetrate magical force fields (-1/4).

VERSION 2: In original D&D, magic missile was simply a conjured arrow that automatically hit. RKA 1d6+1 (Light Longbow), +5 OCV, Autofire

[prestidigitator]

Ah, yes. Hence the old D&D jokes about 10th level fighters being able to survive atmospheric reentry and all that. Heh. Hitpoints. One more thing I don't miss playing Hero (here we at least need some decent PD/ED to survive reentry! :D ).

[CorpCommander]

Heh, I like how people argume more about DnD on the Hero boards than they do about Hero itself... :-p

[Thia Halmades]

Hero sparks discussion.

D20 starts fights.

[CourtFool]

D20 rots your brain. It is like T.V. with less interesting content.

[Dale A. Ward]

"Let he who hath knowledge reckon the number of the Beast, for it is the number of sides on a die, and that number is twenty!"
- The Revelation of St. Milo the Paranoid d20 Hater

[prestidigitator]

D20 rots your brain. It is like T.V. with less interesting content.
:lol: I don't know if I'd go that far. I think I'd rather play D20 than watch T.V., even if not by much.

[Curufea]

D20 to roleplaying is Reality TV to TV.

[Thia Halmades]

Accepting for a moment that BODY & STUN are two separate creatures in Hero than they are in d20 (where HP is an abstract concept, measuring combat survivability, rather than damage absorption). For me, a Magic Missile should be more focused on dealing STUN than BODY since it's such a low level spell - and four BODY in HERO is quite a bit. So.

14 Magic Missile: 3d6 EB, AOE One Hex (Accurate, +1/2), Affects Desolid (+1/2), Autofire 3 (+1/4) (34 Active Points); Requires a Magic Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), OIF: Spell Components (-1/2) Total Cost: 14 points.

You can also substitute in Charges if you're using a slot based system, hence, you can include 'Charges: 3' as a limitation to cover your AF 3 @ +1/4 ammunition, should you so choose.