What I do not get about package deals..

[azato]

Perhaps someone can enlighten me, but I do not understand why low level modifications are given in package deals. If I make up a race named Jafssd and I give them a +2 Str and a +1 Dex, I really haven't done anything because most people jack up certain characteristics anyway. And if the package TAKES AWAY certain stats, couldn't one simply buy them back? What is the rational?


I like the idea of making all the modifications to Characteristic Maximums equal out in points (ex NCM 21 Con and a 21 Int but a 19 DEx) but what do you do with a creature like a centaur. They would have beefed up str, con and body but the severities that would need to be placed on the other characteristics is too severe. How do you handle this?

[CBikle]

For a centaur, you could just treat it as kind of an expensive package (ie: if you're game is 75 base pts. +75 in disads and the centaur package eats up a 100 of those pts. , that means that the player has 50 pts. to allocate freely.

Truth be told, "package deals" have never really been a "deal" in any of their incarnations, basically they do two things:

1 make it easier/faster to build a character.

2 Rationalize/allow certain powers or extremes that normally wouldn't be allowed (ie: In a Fantasy Hero game, a player with the Troll package might build a character that has a Str of 40 a Con of 30 and Body of 20 and the regeneration power.).

[ghost-angel]

Package Deals are also a guidelines.

If you have an Elf Package Deal with bonus stats, Enhanced PER and a Social Limitation it is fair to say that the typical elf (i.e. 90%+) will fall around that range of stats/powers.

Think about it this way:
Normal Humans have 8 in all their base stats (as opposed to the starting 10 Characters get).
You could state that a Normal Human Package Deal is -2 in All Characteristics.

this lets you know that the average Normal Human will have an 8 in Stats, but of course we know many have different stats.

Package Deals are most useful when trying to determine common skill sets IMO.

Like knowing that Doctors have at least a certain set of Knowledge Skills and Professional Skills.

[sbarron]

Perhaps someone can enlighten me, but I do not understand why low level modifications are given in package deals. If I make up a race named Jafssd and I give them a +2 Str and a +1 Dex, I really haven't done anything because most people jack up certain characteristics anyway. And if the package TAKES AWAY certain stats, couldn't one simply buy them back? What is the rational?Package deals serve as templates of what members of a given race or profession look like. And that's all they do.

Using your example above, what you have done by creating this package is made it clear that the average Jafssdian would have a 12 STR and a 11 DEX (assuming 10 is your base stat). That's it.

PCs building characters are not affected by these numbers other than to inform them of the average Jafssdian's stengths, weaknesses, and abilities. If a character wants to play a weak Jafssdian, they can sell back their STR normally, without regard to the +2 STR in the package. It just means that the PC will be that much weaker than the average Jafssdian.

This new way of handling package deals makes a lot more sense than the previous editions take. PCs build characters how they want. Package deals give them an idea of what certain types of characters look like in the campaign world.

[prestidigitator]

I personally treat Characteristics bought through racial packages to be Characteristics bought as Powers, which means they essentially modify the Normal Characteristic Maxima (for better or for worse). Not really, but since they apply after all other changes and ignore the maxima that's the way they behave.

Even then, though, it isn't that big of a deal. Yes you can certainly just make up for the differences in points. I suppose it makes more of a difference in very low-powered games. Usually it's the Powers that really spice things up anyway.

[Herolover]

Package Deals will never be renamed, but in truth they in other games they would be called Templates.

Since 5e the "Package Deal" is only useful to show give players examples or "rules to follow." Could you imagine a policeman without the knowledge of police procedures?

To answer your question on the stats the reason stats are included in a racial package deal is to show that some races are "on average" quicker or stronger.

The average Dwarf has a STR of 12 compared to an average Human's STR of 10 therefore we put a +2 STR in the package deal.

When Package Deals started out in previous editions you did get 3 or mabye even 5 free points. Then some GM's allowed players to not count the disadvantages that came witht he package, but that meant you got package deals with huge amounts of disads.

I like it better now that it is templates.

[The Rose]

I on adverage don't think one way or another on package deals. I mean they don't serve a purpose for Chracters that arn't adverage. And in most games the PC are anything but Adverage. As far as defining the normal member of a race yeah it does give the PC an numerical idea but I think it is better left to descriptive speach from the GM rather than Codified stats. Also I do really dislike that they are called "DEALS" when they don't offer any thing in return for taking them as apposed to righting your own concept. But hey that is just my opinoin.

La Rose.

[Erkenfresh]

If you're worried about a race being too powerful in a certain stat, this is easy to balance out by including other things on the template that are expensive for the utility.

For example, in a Fantasy Hero campaign where melee weapons are very common, having claws isn't a huge advantage. It certainly helps, like if you're weapons are removed, but this would not make up for the 10 points you pay for a 0.5d6 HKA. A centaur race would get a nice bonus to Running but you could make it cost extra endurance so it's not super useful. My race of lizardmen have a significant bonus to dexterity and speed but spend a lot of points on claws and regeneration with extra time, a day (which is fairly worthless in a campaign with healing magic).

This has the effect of soaking up a lot of points, making the character weaker in many other aspects. Hence, you get "balance" as those races are more like one trick ponies.

[azato]

I personally treat Characteristics bought through racial packages to be Characteristics bought as Powers, which means they essentially modify the Normal Characteristic Maxima (for better or for worse). Not really, but since they apply after all other changes and ignore the maxima that's the way they behave.

Even then, though, it isn't that big of a deal. Yes you can certainly just make up for the differences in points. I suppose it makes more of a difference in very low-powered games. Usually it's the Powers that really spice things up anyway.

This brings up another question I was going to post. Let me summarize what I think you are saying. (The following may be confusing) If I, without the racial package deal, take off two points of Strength and add it to my Constitution - there is no change to the number of character point added to my character because it is a wash. But if I take a characteristic increase, as a package deal, the bonus to the characteristic counts in the cost of the character - even if I take a reduction in another characteristic?

So does a minus to a characteristic likewise count as a disadvantage? What about if I have a big character, does the -1DCV count as a disadvantage?

[prestidigitator]

This brings up another question I was going to post. Let me summarize what I think you are saying. (The following may be confusing) If I, without the racial package deal, take off two points of Strength and add it to my Constitution - there is no change to the number of character point added to my character because it is a wash. But if I take a characteristic increase, as a package deal, the bonus to the characteristic counts in the cost of the character - even if I take a reduction in another characteristic?

So does a minus to a characteristic likewise count as a disadvantage?
I don't really count negative modifiers to the race's stats as Disadvantages, no. Instead, think of it this way: you buy your Characteristics to pretty much the level you want them, and then the racial package gives you Powers that add to some stats and take away from others (in which case I just consider them to cost negative points, rather than being an actual Disadvantage that goes into the Disadvantages section). Since they are Powers, they ignore Normal Characteristic Maxima (so if you bought your Str to 18 and the racial package gives +5 Str for 5 points, you have a 23 Str which you can buy up two more points later without paying double; and if you bought your Dex to 20 but the racial package gives you a -2 Dex for -6 points, you have an 18 Dex and buying it up any more will cost double because--before Powers--you are already at the maximum).

What about if I have a big character, does the -1DCV count as a disadvantage?
Yes. It is a part of a Size Disadvantage (a Physical Limitation), and that definitely does count as a Character Disadvantage.

[azato]

I see the light!

I now take back what said previously about the minor characteristic adders. Now I like them!

Thanks for the explanation!

[ghost-angel]

I would point out that Prestidigitator's method, while a good one, is not by the book.

Package Deal Characterisitcs do not adjust, add to or subtract from Characteristic Maxima in any way. And they aren't normally powers.

But like I said - I like Pres's method so I'd go with it.

[azato]

I still think it is silly for the +1's and +2's, but for major changes it makes sense.

I think what makes the packaged deals so confusing is that they have a point cost for the deal. Instead, it should be a list of stuff that you have to buy to play that race or class. The point cost is very misleading. A package may only cost you 5 points but once you have "paid" for it you may not have any points to buy anything else and your disadvantage "slots" may be used up.

[ghost-angel]

I think the cost is just a Net Cost guideline carryover from previous editions. What it's really telling you is it costs 5 Free Points once all is taken into account.

[prestidigitator]

Err...I also don't count Disadvantages from racial packages toward Disadvantage maximums (note: I'm not including professional and other packages here; just racial ones), except in as much as they might overcome the positive costs of the package (so if there are +5 points of Characteristics and Powers in the package, but -10 points of Disadvantages, then the whole package counts as a -5 Disadvantage). But I also roll my own and I'm very strict about any new ones. So for my racial packages it essentially is just a flat cost.

Cultural and professional packages are a completely different matter. Them I treat more like standard packages from the book.