Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

[nexus]

There's two threads on the Speed Zone so far. Anyone have any opinions on the rest of the material? I' m pretty interested in the optional split for Dexterity myself. I think it would solve some issues I've had with Dexterity. I'm waffling on altering the cost for them based archetype though. It could be effective but its dancing sort of close to character classes.

[nexus]

No commnts on the rest of the book?

[ghost-angel]

I won't have it for several weeks at least... so I got nothin'

[Thia Halmades]

I have to wait until after my birthday, then I'll likely order USPD & USKL at the same time.

[Teflon Billy]

I've got to wait till I get back from some training sometime next month. Possibly until GenCon so I can get all 6+ books that are in the queue to be released before GenCon all at once (and save the guys the Shipping cost of sending them to me)

TB

[Susano]

Short review: I've really liked what I've seen so far. I've only just started on the Speed Zone part.

[Lord Mhoram]

I've read it through pretty much cover to cover by this point.

I love all the sample powers. The "HERO System movement companion" was pretty cool. The in depth discussions on the different kinds of movement powers was really good too. The ideas for a Speedster Campaign, where the Speed Zone rules are, is pretty nifty.

All in all I loved the whole thing.

Except for the variants of DEX.
That irked me. Not because it was unbalanced or it was neccissarily bad, but I irrationally dislike playing with characterisitics. In my mind, if you start playing with different characteristics it almost isn't the HERO system anymore. Like I said, irrational. Since first edition, the powers have grown and mutated, the advantage limitation system has grown, power frameworks have altered and changed, the skill system has been revamped, talents were added, adders were added, formalized and built uppon. But Characterisitcs have never changed. I think that is also the reason that I am so anti the "STR costs 2 pts" appraoach.

[Killer Shrike]

On the otherhand I would look at that list of improvements and immediately consider an area of the rules that affects so many other things but hasnt been altered to likely be in need of some calibration to make sure it is up to par with all the things that have changed.

[John Desmarais]

No commnts on the rest of the book?

Still waiting for the man in brown to deliver it.

[Bloodstone]

Still waiting for the man in brown to deliver it.

ditto :cry:

[Killer Shrike]

Its a good book; buy it. How's that? ;)

[Lord Mhoram]

On the otherhand I would look at that list of improvements and immediately consider an area of the rules that affects so many other things but hasnt been altered to likely be in need of some calibration to make sure it is up to par with all the things that have changed.

Don't go and get all logical on me, I'm talking an emotional reaction here. I'm used to seeing changes everywhere else, but not in characteristics so I respond "NOOOOO!!!!". :)

[OddHat]

I like having an official character (Cheshire Cat, p.176) using Clairsentience as a targetting sense. It helps drive home the point that an individual GM has every right to allow that option in a given campaign.

It's also done as an adder, which is the way I've been doing it since 5th came out.

In turn, that opens the way to fairly direct Clair based Astral Projection builds.

[Killer Shrike]

Yah. I actually really liked the new Cheshire write up, but then he's one of my favorite villains in the CU.

[John Desmarais]

Except for the variants of DEX.

Personally, I thought this was a pretty keen concept. I'm not sure I would ever actually use, but I did think (on paper) it spunds like it would worked well. (Pocket description for those not in the know yet: it breaks DEX out into three 1 point stats, one drives CV, one drives DEX skills, one drives Initiative, and they all combine back to drive base SPD). It addresses one of my problems with speedsters: Why are thier OCVs always so high? This way you can pick and choose the DEX components you want high in a speedsters, but leave low those you don't want.

I love to hear from someone who's used it in game regarding how well it works (or doesn't work).

[nexus]

Personally, I thought this was a pretty keen concept. I'm not sure I would ever actually use, but I did think (on paper) it spunds like it would worked well. (Pocket description for those not in the know yet: it breaks DEX out into three 1 point stats, one drives CV, one drives DEX skills, one drives Initiative, and they all combine back to drive base SPD). It addresses one of my problems with speedsters: Why are thier OCVs always so high? This way you can pick and choose the DEX components you want high in a speedsters, but leave low those you don't want.

I love to hear from someone who's used it in game regarding how well it works (or doesn't work).

I was looking at it more for Heroic games. Theives and rogue type character end up having higher Combat Values (at least base) than the warriors of the group. Agility, Reaction Time and Hand Eye coordination are different things but attributes as such a good buy it only makes mathmatical sense of buy certain ones up really high.

If I used it I'd probably increase the individual costs of the different aspects of Dexterity. The sad thing is the major thing that keeps me from doing it is that it would make Hero Designer much harder to use.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Personally, I thought this was a pretty keen concept. I'm not sure I would ever actually use, but I did think (on paper) it spunds like it would worked well. (Pocket description for those not in the know yet: it breaks DEX out into three 1 point stats, one drives CV, one drives DEX skills, one drives Initiative, and they all combine back to drive base SPD). It addresses one of my problems with speedsters: Why are thier OCVs always so high? This way you can pick and choose the DEX components you want high in a speedsters, but leave low those you don't want.

I love to hear from someone who's used it in game regarding how well it works (or doesn't work).I haven't used it in a game (yet), but I'm cautiously considering trying it for an upcoming game. (The main obstacle is that I don't want to mess up Hero Designer. ;))

Personally, I would change them ever-so-slightly from the way they're presented in the book. I would make Accuracy affect OCV and fine-control DEX-based skills like Lockpicking. Agility would affect DCV and "whole-body" control DEX-based skills like Acrobatics or Breakfall. Reaction would be unchanged.

If I used them, I would probably make SPD a Primary Characteristic.

[Hugh Neilson]

Personally, I thought this was a pretty keen concept. I'm not sure I would ever actually use, but I did think (on paper) it spunds like it would worked well. (Pocket description for those not in the know yet: it breaks DEX out into three 1 point stats, one drives CV, one drives DEX skills, one drives Initiative, and they all combine back to drive base SPD). It addresses one of my problems with speedsters: Why are thier OCVs always so high? This way you can pick and choose the DEX components you want high in a speedsters, but leave low those you don't want.

This sounds great from the aspect of characters who should have good DEX rolls, but not necessarily good CV's. However, I think it's ripe for abuse.

Consider Barney the Brick. Barney currently great defenses, a powerful punch and a 20 DEX. He doesn't have any DEX-based skills. He's not really concerned about whether he goes first or last in any given encounter - his defenses and high STUN mean he'll last out a couple of hits. But he is concerned about hitting his target. So Barney (under this new system) doesn't buy up his Skills or Initiative DEX, only his CV Dex. He'll spend the same 30 points, so he has 11- DEX rolls, moves at DEX 10 and has a base CV of 13 (based on his 40 Stat). Maybe he'll sell back 1 point of Skill Dex to books his CV Dex and have a 14 base CV instead. Plus, he gets a huge boost to DCV which will mean his high STUN holds out for much longer.

Also consider Wally the Warrior. Wally is very skilled with weapons. Now, he could reflect that by buying three 5 point levels with weapons. However, for the same 15 points, he could buy +9 CV Dex and +6 STR. That gets him +3 OCV, +3 DCV and +1 DC with all weapons, and without weapons. Plus, he'll cash in on some extra Figured's, including a small Speed rebate. Or he can buy +22 CV DEX , save 7 points on Speed and pay the same 15 points. Now his OCV and DCV are each up by 7.

So long, skill levels! Even if Wally is subject to NCM, why would he pay 3 points for a level with Swords when he can pay 6 points (a bit less, actually, after the speed rebate) and raise his CV Dex 3 points? he gets the same +1 OCV with swords, and with everything else, plus he gets a bonus to DCV. Sure, it costs more, but Wally's vastly more versatile as a consequence. And what limitation would you give him on those CV DEX points for "No Increase to DCV" and "Only when using a sword"? Say, since they have a Limitation, they're a power - no more NCM!

Hey, Merv the Mage wants in on the action. Merv will buy some Drains and Aids for CV DEX. 1d6 cuts his enemy's OCV and DCV by 1 each, on average, or raises his friend's OCV and DCV by 1.

The system described above is only functional if the three facets of DEX have equal value in the game. I don't believe they do.

[Killer Shrike]

Yes, Hugh has it exactly.

[Derek Hiemforth]

The system described above is only functional if the three facets of DEX have equal value in the game. I don't believe they do.This is why I think it would work better with Accuracy determining OCV, and Agility determining DCV (with Reaction still determining Initiative). I think that balances their value better.

[Hugh Neilson]

This is why I think it would work better with Accuracy determining OCV, and Agility determining DCV (with Reaction still determining Initiative). I think that balances their value better.

I think that helps, although I still anticipate Bricks buying a lot of OCV DEX, and some characters (speedsters, for example) buying a lot of DCV DEX. I don't expect an equal value will be placed on "go first DEX". I'd rather buy more DCV and/or defenses so I can last through the first volley of attacks.

Plus, under your method, now all Bricks are great at picking locks, and most rogues have high OCV, so we're back where we started to some extent.

Another thought - unless the GM applies some pretty tight constraints, this approach is likely to spread out the OCV and DCV range considerably, as Bricks who previously had a 7 DCV revert to a 3 so they have more points for other things. AoE 1 hex will come into vogue for high DCV characters so they don't need to spend points on OCV.

I'm not saying a split isn't workable, but I think the ripple effects will be huge, and have not been considered.

[Zed-F]

The system described above is only functional if the three facets of DEX have equal value in the game. I don't believe they do.
Yeah, I can see this being very open to abuse, as you describe. Then again, lots of other things are too. Perhaps the usual answer of GM oversight applies. Some kind of rule limiting the amount any one DEX component can be different from the average of the three would probably make sense too.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Yes, obviously it requires GM oversight. Just because a brick would like to have an OCV of 15 doesn't give him the in-game justification explaining how his eye-hand coordination is so extraordinary. Character concepts still have to be honored and enforced. :)

[CrosshairCollie]

It addresses one of my problems with speedsters: Why are thier OCVs always so high?

On the other hand, I have difficulty imagining a speedster without a high OCV. I mean, if you're throwing punches faster than someone can see in detail, just a blur, wouldn't that mean you're more likely to hit/harder to block?

[Derek Hiemforth]

On the other hand, I have difficulty imagining a speedster without a high OCV. I mean, if you're throwing punches faster than someone can see in detail, just a blur, wouldn't that mean you're more likely to hit/harder to block?Maybe only in Hand-to-Hand combat. It doesn't necessarily make your aim with a gun any better, for example.

Besides, if you're throwing punches faster than someone can see, that's not necessarily DEX, or even OCV... it sounds more like Invisible Power Effects. Maybe you hit easily with it because they can't see it coming, not because you're inherently accurate with it. :)

[CrosshairCollie]

Maybe only in Hand-to-Hand combat. It doesn't necessarily make your aim with a gun any better, for example.

Besides, if you're throwing punches faster than someone can see, that's not necessarily DEX, or even OCV... it sounds more like Invisible Power Effects. Maybe you hit easily with it because they can't see it coming, not because you're inherently accurate with it. :)

Sure it does. Your reaction times will be higher, so you'll be easy to track them because they'll look like a slow-moving target no matter how fast they may be going.

I was engaging in hyperbole and using an old metaphor. :) Again, it's a matter of 'you're throwing a punch at a target that, relative to yourself, isn't dodging effectively', because your hand is moving several magnitudes faster than a normal punch, and because your reaction times are so much higher, and a high reaction time is pretty much a survival trait for a real speedster, because there's not that much difference between something coming at you at Mach 1 and you going at something at Mach 1. :)

[OddHat]

Maybe only in Hand-to-Hand combat. It doesn't necessarily make your aim with a gun any better, for example.


I've always held that for some Speedsters, especially Flash types, the world seems to move in slow motion or not at all. Targets that are slow or still should be easier to hit, attacks that are slow should be easier to avoid, and a high DEX is one way to simulate that.

If you're a speedster just because your super-strong legs give you lots of extra running, the situation may be different.

[Derek Hiemforth]

All I'm saying is that speedsters don't necessarily have to have a high OCV. Their ability to hit things effectively might be due to factors that can be simulated ways other than OCV. Having a high DCV seems much more central to the speedster archtype, IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Maybe only in Hand-to-Hand combat. It doesn't necessarily make your aim with a gun any better, for example.

Hmmm...is there any decent rationale for the three DEX stats to cover OCV in HTH, OCV at range and DCV separately? Reaction speed could determine initiative order and DCV. Ranged OCV becomes hand-eye co-ordination (and links to the appropriate skills) and HTH OCV becomes agility (linking to the appropriate skills).

[Hugh Neilson]

Yes, obviously it requires GM oversight. Just because a brick would like to have an OCV of 15 doesn't give him the in-game justification explaining how his eye-hand coordination is so extraordinary. Character concepts still have to be honored and enforced. :)

Absolutely. However, character concepts should not be point-penalized either. if a particular ability is expensive and virtually useless, bet on very few characters whose concept demands that ability being played. If a given ability has utility well beyond its cost, a lot of concepts that cry out for that ability will develop.

And my Brick, while not especially fast, is extremely skilled at striking his opponents. Thus, he has a very high OCV Dex stat. It would be out of concept to buy up DCV Dex or Act first Dex.

[Don't let anyone else take that, by the way. They're steppping on my schtick to Powergame.]

[Dr.Device]

I'm not entirely sure about splitting DEX up, but if I were to do it, I would want it to look more like this (heavily influenced by several posts in this thread).

Dexterity is a primary characteristic. It costs 3 points per level.
Accuracy is a figured characteristic which represents Hand-Eye Coordination. Base Accuracy is equal to Dex. Each level of Accuracy costs 1 point.
Agility is a figured characteristic which represents full-body coordination. Base Agility is equal to Dex. Each level of Agility costs 1 point.
Speed remains as is.

The current aspects of DEX are divided up as follows (The split of skills is just my first pass):

Dex - OCV in Hand-to-Hand combat (HTHOCV), Initiative, Climbing, Combat Driving, Combat Piloting, Fast Draw, Stealth
Accuracy - OCV in Ranged combat (ROCV), Lockpicking, Sleight of Hand, Teamwork
Agility - DCV, Acrobatics, Breakfall, Contortionist, Riding

Having several of the function of DEX stay with DEX, while the other two are figured characteristics should reduce the risk of severe mini-maxing.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm not entirely sure about splitting DEX up, but if I were to do it, I would want it to look more like this (heavily influenced by several posts in this thread).

Dexterity is a primary characteristic. It costs 3 points per level.
Accuracy is a figured characteristic which represents Hand-Eye Coordination. Base Accuracy is equal to Dex. Each level of Accuracy costs 1 point.
Agility is a figured characteristic which represents full-body coordination. Base Agility is equal to Dex. Each level of Agility costs 1 point.
Speed remains as is.

The current aspects of DEX are divided up as follows (The split of skills is just my first pass):

Dex - OCV in Hand-to-Hand combat (HTHOCV), Initiative, Climbing, Combat Driving, Combat Piloting, Fast Draw, Stealth
Accuracy - OCV in Ranged combat (ROCV), Lockpicking, Sleight of Hand, Teamwork
Agility - DCV, Acrobatics, Breakfall, Contortionist, Riding

Having several of the function of DEX stay with DEX, while the other two are figured characteristics should reduce the risk of severe mini-maxing.

Why would it be possible to buy up ranged OCV and DCV separate from DEX, but not to buy up HTH OCV? Similarly, there seems an inherent unfairness in linking some DEX skills to a 1 point attribute, while others are linked to a more expensive stat.

Note that each 3 points of DEX now provides 3 points of Figured characteristics. Is this intended?

[nexus]

Maybe make Dex a 2 point attribute that affects Close combat Combat Value and Ranged Defensive Combat value along with certain grace and agility skills like Breakfall, Acrobatics, Climbing and Stealth and add a 1 point Attribute called Technique that affect hand Eye Coordination like Lockpicking and Sleight of Hand and perhaps Ranged OCV.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Okay, this thread has convinced me...


I'm not going to change DEX in my new campaign. :)

[nexus]

I probably won't change it in any current games (to much retrofitting) but I'll at least strongly consider it for any future one, particularly Heroic.

[PhilFleischmann]

Maybe the problems can be mitigated by restricting how far the various aspects of CEX can be from each other. Like with Entangle, where you can have any combination of DEF and dice of BODY as long as one doesn't exceed twice the other. You could do the same thing for DEX. So instead of a standard 20 DEX, you could have one part at 26 and one part at 14. You couldn't spead any farther than this because 27 is more than twice 13.

Or the allowed variance could be even smaller if you like, e.g., the higher one can't be more than 50% ove the lower one. So you could have 24 and 16, but not 25 anf 15. Or you could let it vary by no more than a fixed amount, say 5 points, so you could have 20 and 25, or 25 and 30, or 15 and 20, etc.

Does that help? At least a little?

I find it an interesting idea, but...

[Hermit]

I have to wait a bit before I get mine, but hopefully soon

[Armitage]

I like having an official character (Cheshire Cat, p.176) using Clairsentience as a targeting sense. It helps drive home the point that an individual GM has every right to allow that option in a given campaign.

Although I'm wondering why he has MegaScale Clairsentience to perceive Teleport locations when he doesn't have MegaScale Teleportation. The Short-Range Sense slot in his Multipower has enough range to match any of his Teleportation powers.

[Dr.Device]

Why would it be possible to buy up ranged OCV and DCV separate from DEX, but not to buy up HTH OCV?

Two reasons.
1. It's just how I see it working. Hitting someone in HTH requires a combination of both of agility and accuracy.
2. I think it balances better.


Similarly, there seems an inherent unfairness in linking some DEX skills to a 1 point attribute, while others are linked to a more expensive stat.

WHy is that any more unfair than the current system? INT & PRE skills are already based off 1 point attributes.



Note that each 3 points of DEX now provides 3 points of Figured characteristics. Is this intended?
Yes, that's intended. I set it up so as not to be a mini-max target. Purchasing two of the figureds (one of which will almost always be speed) should basically break even with buying regular DEX. The only reason to buy up agility or accuracy is because it fits the character concept.

Looking at it again, I do see a potential for abuse that might keep me from implementing it, though. An invisible blaster or other sniper variant could get away with murder by buying up accuracy, if a GM weren't vigilant. That's probably enough to scuttle it unless I find a fix. I'd still favor this system over the one it The Ultimate Speedster, though.

[OddHat]

Although I'm wondering why he has MegaScale Clairsentience to perceive Teleport locations when he doesn't have MegaScale Teleportation. The Short-Range Sense slot in his Multipower has enough range to match any of his Teleportation powers.

You're right. :)

Something to add in my own version of the character.

[OddHat]

As to the other characters:

Kinetic - Nice to see a reasonably powerful good guy NPC, and a hint at what the 500 point version of the Champions will look like. Nothing all that new in the build.

El Salto - I would never use him.

Mantara - Interesting, and a fairly tight build. With a slight upgrade I might use her in a campaign.

Vector - Absurdly dangerous even if you're not using the Speed Zone rules, and an absolute monster if you do. Fairly solid super merc back story as well. I like him, and would use him as a significant re-occuring foe.

Bullethead - A good Dark Champions thug, only needs minor upgrading for a Champions campaign, could fit into Pulp Hero with some tweaking.

Tovar Farwalker - I don't currently have any campaigns where he'd fit in. Looks like a reasonable build for his setting.

Winged Folk - OK, but I have no use for them right now.

Burrowing Horror - I liked the movie, not bad for a Horror or Pulp game.

Kagamishoki - Always liked him, easy to use in many settings.

The Midnight Comet - Good Pulp Hero NPC or high power Pulp PC. Would fit well in a golden age game.

The Mole Marauder - I could just about see using him in a Pulp game. Not a bad unusual thug with non-combat value.

The Rocketmen - I like these guys, and they can fit in to Pulp or Champions games as well with tweaking.

True Travellers - Again, a nice PC or NPC background for all sorts of campaigns.

[Bloodstone]

Kinetiks gotten better, but his build still kinda bothers me. He burns through 90 END a turn just doing full moves. Even a turn of Half moves costs him 60 END. He only has 50 END and 8 REC.

I could understand some lesser speedster having END problems, but the CU's premier superheroic speedster probably shouldn't suck quite so much wind. Hell, I don't mind that he can't use most of his Speedster Tricks every phase since he has the Vibro Grip and Martial Arts to fall back on. But he should be able to make better use of his movement.

As a side notes, his ED total is wrong. Should be 28 ED (20 rED).

Also, my Spanish isn't that good, but I thought "Salto" just meant leap or jump. Leap Frog would be "Salto Rana" I believe...

[Steve Long]

Also, my Spanish isn't that good, but I thought "Salto" just meant leap or jump. Leap Frog would be "Salto Rana" I believe...

I looked it up in two dictionaries. It's a legitimate usage as near as I can determine without having actually been born in a Spanish-speaking country. ;)

[Killer Shrike]

Kinetiks gotten better, but his build still kinda bothers me. He burns through 90 END a turn just doing full moves. Even a turn of Half moves costs him 60 END. He only has 50 END and 8 REC.

A) Who said Kinetik is the "premier" superheroic speedster? The Champions are just PC analogs; nothing premier about them.

B) I don't have the book handy but Ill look at him tonight to see if your END assesment of his movement is correct. If it is then yes that should definitely be addressed.

[Derek Hiemforth]

A) Who said Kinetik is the "premier" superheroic speedster? The Champions are just PC analogs; nothing premier about them.How about, "Kinetik is the 'featured' superheroic speedster of the Champions Universe?"

B) I don't have the book handy but Ill look at him tonight to see if your END assesment of his movement is correct. If it is then yes that should definitely be addressed.It's correct. For the version of Kinetik in TUS, his movement (either combat-scale or MegaScale) costs 9 END per Phase if used at full power. With a SPD of 10, that does indeed come out to 90 END per Turn doing nothing but full-moving.

[Bloodstone]

I looked it up in two dictionaries. It's a legitimate usage as near as I can determine without having actually been born in a Spanish-speaking country.

Then I'm probably wrong on this one. :cool:


How about, "Kinetik is the 'featured' superheroic speedster of the Champions Universe?"

Yeah, I supopose that would probably be a better term. :thumbup:

Since I don't actully play in the CU, I tend to think about most of the campaign material the same way I might a comic book. So even though Davos and Vector are faster then Kinetik, he's still in my mind the Quicksilver or the Flash of the setting...

[Killer Shrike]

It's correct. For the version of Kinetik in TUS, his movement (either combat-scale or MegaScale) costs 9 END per Phase if used at full power. With a SPD of 10, that does indeed come out to 90 END per Turn doing nothing but full-moving.
Well, that certainly does sound like a design oversight.

[Killer Shrike]

Since I don't actully play in the CU, I tend to think about most of the campaign material the same way I might a comic book. So even though Davos and Vector are faster then Kinetik, he's still in my mind the Quicksilver or the Flash of the setting...
Granted it's impossible to determine precisely, but IMO Kinetic is far weaker than either of those two characters.

[ghost-angel]

I don't know if Kinetic's END Expenditure is all that bad... of all the Archetype's Speedster's have the most freedom to spend a phase or two taking recoveries; at SPD10 even with 2 phases of Recoveries they probably get in 1-2 phases more than everyone else.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I don't know if Kinetic's END Expenditure is all that bad... of all the Archetype's Speedster's have the most freedom to spend a phase or two taking recoveries; at SPD10 even with 2 phases of Recoveries they probably get in 1-2 phases more than everyone else.True. 'Course they might also get killed, since most speedsters are too lightly defended to do a lot of standing around at Half DCV, with targetting penalties against them also cut in half. ;)

As it stands now, Kinetik can run at a full sprint for less than 1 Turn. Assuming average rolls on the STUN damage he'd be taking for burning STUN as END starting on Segment 8, he'd be unconscious before 12's.

Now, I'm a big round 430 lb. ball of dough. And even *I* can run at full speed for more than 12 seconds. (Though granted, my full speed is a bit lower than Kinetik's... ;) )

[Bloodstone]

Run, run, run, run, run, :: rest for 3 Phases ::, run, run is a bad mental image for an experienced 507 pt Speedster, IMO.

Davos, Vibron and Sidewinder have 0 END on their movemnt. They don't have to worry about this sort of thing.

Thunderbolt II has enough END and REC to run non stop for like 5 minutes. The ony way he tires himself out is if he Pushes, which is quite genre appropriate for Speedsters IMO.

Vector has VPP so it's hard to say what he's really capable of. He could buff himself with more END/REC or possibly improve his flight with naked advantages. Even if he doesn't he still has enough END and REC to keep moving at full speed for at least 2 Turns.

Kinetik is almost out of End by his 5th phase on Tunrn 1. He doesn't even have enough END left over for a half move on his 6th Phase. That's just not cool in my eyes.

As is, I think his origional writup had END issues. That got compounded when they upped his SPD and Movement, but left his END and REC the same as it was 157 pts ago. Like KS said, most likely just a design oversight, but obviously one that annoyed me ;)

[Killer Shrike]

Now, I'm a big round 430 lb. ball of dough. And even *I* can run at full speed for more than 12 seconds. (Though granted, my full speed is a bit lower than Kinetik's... ;) )
Wow bro; don't over do it and have a heart attack; we'd miss you around here....

[Killer Shrike]

Run, run, run, run, run, :: rest for 3 Phases ::, run, run is a bad mental image for an experienced 507 pt Speedster, IMO.

Davos, Vibron and Sidewinder have 0 END on their movemnt. They don't have to worry about this sort of thing.

Thunderbolt II has enough END and REC to run non stop for like 5 minutes. The ony way he tires himself out is if he Pushes, which is quite genre appropriate for Speedsters IMO.

Vector has VPP so it's hard to say what he's really capable of. He could buff himself with more END/REC or possibly improve his flight with naked advantages. Even if he doesn't he still has enough END and REC to keep moving at full speed for at least 2 Turns.

Kinetik is almost out of End by his 5th phase on Tunrn 1. He doesn't even have enough END left over for a half move on his 6th Phase. That's just not cool in my eyes.

As is, I think his origional writup had END issues. That got compounded when they upped his SPD and Movement, but left his END and REC the same as it was 157 pts ago. Like KS said, most likely just a design oversight, but obviously one that annoyed me ;)
Agreed...some kind of 1/2 or 0 END movement option is pretty much mandatory for a speedster worth the name.

Looking at the various Speedsters I have posted on el site-o they all have some ability to keep moving at 0 END, for instance

http://www.killershrike.com/millennialmen/MillennialMen_Hype.shtml
http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/Breakneck_SpeedZone.HTML
http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_Turbofist.shtml
http://www.killershrike.com/misccharacters/newwarriors/Nova.HTML
http://www.killershrike.com/misccharacters/newwarriors/Speedball.HTML

That's like Speedster 101...kind of a head scratcher....

[casualplayer]

Almost every published HERO character without VPP or Variable Advantages has glaring END problems. Wanna wipe out the Champions Universe? Ranged END Drain.

Ok, this is the "Everything but the Speed Force" thread. All right, I'll dial the rant knob back from 11.

Let's start positive.

I absolutely loved the sections that fleshed out what life would be like if you could count the wingbeats of a hummingbird or watch atomic motion. Three snaps up in Z formation.

The SPD x " Move charts will certainly come in handy.

Most of the example characters were good, although introducing The Speed Zone and then not putting an example character in (I suppose Vector counts) was a mistake.

Cracking DEX into 3 stats was interesting but unless you recalc the cost of CV-affecting Skill Levels also it won't work.

I'm sure there's more but I've only had U-SPDer for a couple of days.

The Bad: I'll try to be kind.

Wow, did they ever stretch the definition of the term 'speedster.' The book should have been called The Ultimate Mover, but while the book touched on other than fleet feet and aviators it really gave them the short end of the stick. Tried to do too much and seemed to veer off course.

There was a lot of reinventing the wheel. There is no need to buy your character an EB Must Cross Intervening Distance, Range Determined by Half-Move, etc, etc to represent punching someone at hyperspeed then returning to your starting position when Running + Move-By already allows you to do that. Half-move up, smack, no turn mode, no accel/decel problems with Running, half-move back to start. If you want the invisible pimp slap, buy Invisibility linked to your Running. The new suggestion of EB bypasses Damage Shield, end-arounds STR Drain/Suppress and causes more problems than it solves.

Was it really so hard to add a Swimming slot to your Flight or Superspeed MP? The May Be Used as [Some Other Movement Type] advantage irks me, probably more than it should.

I don't care for power construct examples not contained within a character write-up, but that's a personal bias not an objective criticism. However there was a heap of pages devoted to these power examples, more than I really wanted to pay for.

Upon first pass, I felt I should have scanned the book in the store and if I had I probably would have passed on it. Give me another week of digging and I may change my mind; I have had this initial impression before especially with Ultimate books.