Concerns about Champs Supplements

[Agent X]

I am sure that many will disagree with what I am about to say. I readily expect to see Monolith try to hand me my head but...

Having perused the products at the FLGS recently, I took my first hard look at Mutants and Masterminds. While I am not all that impressed with the system, I do admire the format of their supplements and the nature of their supplements.
They put out adventure modules!

One of the things that has concerned me about Champions is it seems a bit too closed up and self-referential. It seems too focused on the "rules." Now, they are the best rules I have ever seen for superhero role play but there seems to be a certain dryness to the approach to the Champions Universe and Characters in general. The supplements seem so bent on following a sober format and highlighting the rules system that it loses some of the potential fun that can be had just from reading a role playing supplement.

Those Mutants and Masterminds books I have looked at are far more self-promoting in the sense of their take on characters and their universe. They do some really neat things with the way they describe characters and tie them into their universe. I am not advocating too radical a change in the way DOJ does things. I just think the game has lost some of its magic without the Adventure Modules and the reticent approach to adding "color," and I don't mean real color (cuz I'm poor), to their supplements.

I miss adventure modules and I don't think I'm the only one. In fact, I plan to buy some of the Mutants and Masterminds modules and possibly Silver Age Sentinels supplements simply to fill the vacuum left to Hero by making Hero Conversions. I know they have "run the numbers" but I know there are more people out there like me who would not only like to see these products, but would buy these products. That is money Hero could be getting but isn't going to be getting.

[Lord Liaden]

Hopefully, the upcoming Champions Battlegrounds adventure compendium book will be more to your liking, as well as the Reality Storm crossover with SAS, and the e-book adventure Shades of Black which should be available soon.

I think that DoJ is doing their best to satisfy the part of their fanbase who wants adventures (I include myself in that group BTW) in formats that will still give them an acceptable profit.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Hopefully, the upcoming Champions Battlegrounds adventure compendium book will be more to your liking, as well as the Reality Storm crossover with SAS, and the e-book adventure Shades of Black which should be available soon.

I think that DoJ is doing their best to satisfy the part of their fanbase who wants adventures (I include myself in that group BTW) in formats that will still give them an acceptable profit. I hope so.

[Trebuchet]

I see where you're coming from, Doug, but I respectfully disagree. According to HERO's surveys, only about 50% of Champions players even play in the Champions Universe™ world. The others use their own home-made worlds. And lots of other HERO gamers are not even playing Champions, but Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, etc. So DoJ is focusing, wisely in my opinion, on getting the basic system and genre stuff out first. If they get around to pre-generated adventures eventually I won't complain, but I probably won't buy any either. Whereas sourcebooks such as CKC, Champions, UMA, Ninja Hero, and USDB are very useful even to us "non-Hero universe" GMs.

I own about 20 of the old 3rd and 4th Edition adventures. To be perfectly honest, I never found any of them to be of any real use, with a single exception (and by the time I'd modified one scenario from Shadows of the City for my 4-color Champions game it was almost unrecognizable except for the names of the villains.). I prefer to get my ideas from my own imagination and from books; I've always found pre-made modules (be they for D&D or for Champions) to lack flavor. I know there are lots of gamers out there that feel differently (I've met AD&D players with 20th level characters who have never played in a home-made dungeon!), but I think they are missing something.

I have a very "seat of my pants" GMing style; I use minimal notes and maps but prefer to wing it for the most part. My players are too good to ever figure just what they're going to do, so trying to prepare for every contingency is pointless. Fortunately I've got a lot of GMing experience and can think on my feet; I've been running Champions games on and off for over 20 years. And I never forget that role-playing is best considered interactive fiction. I don't run superhero video games or dungeons. :D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X
While I am not all that impressed with the system, I do admire the format of their supplements and the nature of their supplements.
I will not comment on M&M's format. DOJ has no intention of producing color books so arguing that point would be pointless. :)


They put out adventure modules!
Let's also be more accurate: Green Ronin has published 1 module, and I will be honest with you, I did not think it was very good; and I am one of the people who talked about how much I liked Freedom City, so I do not have a baised opinion about superhero source material. I use SAS books, M&M books, V&V books, and anything else I can get my hands on to make my games better.

DOJ has Shades of Black and Champions Battlegrounds on the horizon. There is also Reality Storn debutting at Gen Con. Allen has also published two mini-adventure in Digital Hero: One for Champions and one for Terran Empire. I do not think DOJ is opposed to publishing modules, but just as Time of Crisis is a test product for Green Ronin, Shades of Black and Champions Battlegrounds are test products for DOJ. If the modules sell well, DOJ will produce more. Historically modules sell about 20-30% of what other books do though.


One of the things that has concerned me about Champions is it seems a bit too closed up and self-referential. It seems too focused on the "rules." Now, they are the best rules I have ever seen for superhero role play but there seems to be a certain dryness to the approach to the Champions Universe and Characters in general. The supplements seem so bent on following a sober format and highlighting the rules system that it loses some of the potential fun that can be had just from reading a role playing supplement.
I can understand your statement about Champions, it is a genre book (which by their very nature makes them extentions of FREd), but I will disagree with you on Champions Universe and Millennium City. There is no rules within either of those books. They are just standard universes and, IMO, a vast improvement over the 4th Edition universe. You might not like Kinetik or Dr. Silverback, but that does not mean the characters are not interesting or not fun.

Personal opinions are very subjective. There are characters from SAS and M&M which I like and characters I do not like. Atomic Brain, for example, seems like a really stupid character concept to me. It is too Silver Aged to be interesting in the Meta-4 universe, IMO. Factor Four, on the other hand, I like quite a bit. You might have a different opinion.


I am not advocating too radical a change in the way DOJ does things. I just think the game has lost some of its magic without the Adventure Modules and the reticent approach to adding "color," and I don't mean real color (cuz I'm poor), to their supplements.
I am not sure what you mean by "color" in this statement, but keep one thing in mind. DOJ is the 4th company to produce HERO System material over the last 21 years. The first three companies all lost money. By all indications DOJ is making a profit, so if that means we do not get 10 "Adventure Modules" a year, but the company keeps producing useful material, then I am all for their approach. If it is not broke, don't fix it; and certainly don't brake the company trying to fix it. :)


I miss adventure modules and I don't think I'm the only one. In fact, I plan to buy some of the Mutants and Masterminds modules and possibly Silver Age Sentinels supplements simply to fill the vacuum left to Hero by making Hero Conversions. I know they have "run the numbers" but I know there are more people out there like me who would not only like to see these products, but would buy these products. That is money Hero could be getting but isn't going to be getting.
I like modules too. I have stated that many times on these message boards. But I also understand that you cannot sell 1/4 the product and still make money. Publishing is a volume business. The more books you print the cheaper they cost. The less books you print the more they cost. If DOJ has to print 1,000 copies of a module the cost is 3+ times higher, per book, than if they were to publish 5,000 copies, but they cannot print 5,000 copies when the demand is only 1,000. It's a catch 22. As I said above though, if Champions Battlegrounds sells well then I am sure DOJ will be willing to produce more. They need to learn if there is a market before they jump off the diving board; and this is the same thing that Green Ronin and GoO are doing as well.

You can have your head back now. :)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
I see where you're coming from, Doug, but I respectfully disagree. According to HERO's surveys, only about 50% of Champions players even play in the Champions Universe™ world. The others use their own home-made worlds. And lots of other HERO gamers are not even playing Champions, but Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, etc. So DoJ is focusing, wisely in my opinion, on getting the basic system and genre stuff out first. If they get around to pre-generated adventures eventually I won't complain, but I probably won't buy any either. Whereas sourcebooks such as CKC, Champions, UMA, Ninja Hero, and USDB are very useful even to us "non-Hero universe" GMs.

I own about 20 of the old 3rd and 4th Edition adventures. To be perfectly honest, I never found any of them to be of any real use, with a single exception (and by the time I'd modified one scenario from Shadows of the City for my 4-color Champions game it was almost unrecognizable except for the names of the villains.). I prefer to get my ideas from my own imagination and from books; I've always found pre-made modules (be they for D&D or for Champions) to lack flavor. I know there are lots of gamers out there that feel differently (I've met AD&D players with 20th level characters who have never played in a home-made dungeon!), but I think they are missing something.

I have a very "seat of my pants" GMing style; I use minimal notes and maps but prefer to wing it for the most part. My players are too good to ever figure just what they're going to do, so trying to prepare for every contingency is pointless. Fortunately I've got a lot of GMing experience and can think on my feet; I've been running Champions games on and off for over 20 years. And I never forget that role-playing is best considered interactive fiction. I don't run superhero video games or dungeons. :D I would say about 10% of my sessions have been based on Adventure Modules. I stare at them, fix them, change characters, add material, whatever. I have never run a module as is and probably never will - but I find they can spark my imagination at times when nothing seems to germinate elsewhere.

I have most of the old Champions stuff except for Dark Champions - it never did it for me. The only Dark Champions stuff I picked up was the stuff I thought I could 'port over easily.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X
I have most of the old Champions stuff except for Dark Champions - it never did it for me. The only Dark Champions stuff I picked up was the stuff I thought I could 'port over easily. I've never played Dark Champions either. I "inherited" Shadows of the City from a friend who bought it and moved out of town. I used an idea and a couple of characters (Souped up a bit, since 250 point street-level supervillains look pretty pathetic against the spandex & cape crowd) from SotC to put together an adventure. Running a Dark Champions adventure for my 4-color Champions campaign was an interesting twist for my players (actually, I ran two related but separate adventures featuring the same villain.). Even Mentor's wife, who is not a role-player but was present while the game was going, thought the adventure was very "gothic" in feel, which was precisely the effect I wanted to achieve.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
I've never played Dark Champions either. I "inherited" Shadows of the City from a friend who bought it and moved out of town. I used an idea and a couple of characters (Souped up a bit, since 250 point street-level supervillains look pretty pathetic against the spandex & cape crowd) from SotC to put together an adventure. Running a Dark Champions adventure for my 4-color Champions campaign was an interesting twist for my players (actually, I ran two related but separate adventures featuring the same villain.). Even Mentor's wife, who is not a role-player but was present while the game was going, thought the adventure was very "gothic" in feel, which was precisely the effect I wanted to achieve. One of the problems I heard with Dark Champions is that they established parameters for the heroes and villains and violated them too much. When I saw the write-up for Harbinger of Justice I was horrified, horrified that he was supposed to represent the top end of what I call a street level game. He is mighty! I think he is too mighty to be properly called a Dark Champions character - at least as a PC - and I am very wary of giving too many dispensations for the NPCs that I woulnd't give for the PCs.

One of my favorite adventures inspired by "outside sources" was the Strand adventure in the back of 4th Ed. Champions Universe. I added more details, included Morjok and the Alternate World group from an old Enemies book that included Gaussian and Bruiser. I also tied in the Watchers of the Dragon's Tournament with the Death Dragon and all that stuff. Finally, it included the Tempus time-travel adventure. Anyway, it was one big mess of time travel, mystic threats, alternate dimensions (including evil versions of the PCs), and more conventional story-lines. It was to culminate with the heroes and the legions of Dr. Destroyer and Tyrannon duking it out in the Temporal Nexus or some-such. I never got to finish it. There was a lot going on in my life and I had to move away for awhile and this was something that would take at least 6 months if the game had gone on every Saturday afternoon like clockwork. See, one of my favorite things is to grab a few adventure ideas and splice them together into something very different and much more elaborate. It keeps the players on their toes and is fun for me to watch how they change the dynamics of the plot.

[Rechan]

Well, I've never found modules that meet my tastes. As a used-to-avid D&Der, none of the modules ever appealed to me. They were *Way* too hack and slash and just... cut and dry.

And that would be my concern for HERO, because me, I run a Dark Champions game. They're not the 'Oh look, a villain! We shall fly to the rescue!' smack him around and leave it at that. So I doubt a module would help me - even if I wouldn't mind seeing one.

Now, other then that... I think the CU is AMAZING. IT just seems so Fleshed out and Not dry, but Human. Little NPC nuggets dropped everywhere, not to mention (and what blew me away), in CKC they had experts of Other people's comments on supervillains. Not to mention the little details int he USDP that just won me over. There is a *LOT* of detail that I appreciate.

[megaplayboy]

I do appreciate the "adventure seeds" that are given for each major NPC in the supplements.

A deluxe adventure collection would be cool--maybe 3-6 different adventures with some loose association?

Get 3 top names to write it--Allston, for example--and you'd have a good seller.

[Enforcer84]

I've no complaints with HERO stuff so far. I have been much less pleased with my purchase of SAS and to a lesser extent M&M recently.

I bought the Time of Crisis adventure and while its alright, it isn't anything that couldn't have been tacked onto Freedom City (Which I did like alot)
and the SAS stuff, I bought Roll Call and was not at all impressed with 1 the characters presented and 2 the way they were presented, no full sized art, just a close up and one page character. about 25 of them and it was paper thin. I almost through it out as box filler. SAS and D20 SAS is nice but I thought that the Tristat book had color art. It didn't I thought the iconics were fleshed out, they weren't, I wasn't really all that impressed.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
I've no complaints with HERO stuff so far. I have been much less pleased with my purchase of SAS and to a lesser extent M&M recently.

I bought the Time of Crisis adventure and while its alright, it isn't anything that couldn't have been tacked onto Freedom City (Which I did like alot)
and the SAS stuff, I bought Roll Call and was not at all impressed with 1 the characters presented and 2 the way they were presented, no full sized art, just a close up and one page character. about 25 of them and it was paper thin. I almost through it out as box filler. SAS and D20 SAS is nice but I thought that the Tristat book had color art. It didn't I thought the iconics were fleshed out, they weren't, I wasn't really all that impressed.

The Deluxe Limited Edition SAS book is full color, not the regular edition. I picked up 2 Deluxe copies at the WOTC 70% off sale. :D

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
I have a very "seat of my pants" GMing style; I use minimal notes and maps but prefer to wing it for the most part. My players are too good to ever figure just what they're going to do, so trying to prepare for every contingency is pointless. Fortunately I've got a lot of GMing experience and can think on my feet; I've been running Champions games on and off for over 20 years. And I never forget that role-playing is best considered interactive fiction. I don't run superhero video games or dungeons. :D


While you and i have the same GMing style i find that if in a complete hurrying it is always nice to just scann the books for adventures i can do and I'll take only the basic idea (basically converting it into a buncha different plot seeds)


speaking of which, i hafta say, i enjoy the plot seeds, unfortunately i am only really interested in about 10-20% (pure estimation, not hing more) of the plots seeds, don't know why but i just am...

[Enforcer84]

Originally posted by Gary
The Deluxe Limited Edition SAS book is full color, not the regular edition. I picked up 2 Deluxe copies at the WOTC 70% off sale. :D
Well, that's notnice, give me one.

[djday38]

Well I have to say I agree with those that have said the 5th edition CU is SO much better than what went before.

Everytime I pick up CKC and browse over a villain I marvel at all the little connections the guys have put between the characters, the level of detail and (i think) the amazing layout of each character.
Now it might not be in colour but you get background, personality, tactics, appearance and campaign options. Compare that to SAS in which you get a very basic write up of the character and a colour picture. I know which I would prefer.
SAS has some good characters (Pan and Belle, Bloody Mary, Alice Queen of Hearts, Sentinel and others), I could not comment on Freedom City yet as I have yet to pick it up.
But, I was not impressed with the sample characters in M&M.

I was browsing over the old 4th ediiton CU the other day and although Monte Cook did a fine job, pulling it together into some kind of reasonable setting, it really pales into insignificanse compared to the new version.
As many have said before the new CU benefits tremendously from have a couple of people in overall control, so the focus of the universe is tight and does not have any ill fitting elements as did the old CU, which was written to try to make a universe from 30+ supplements from many different authors.

As to the adventure topic, I am more than happy to pick up adventures in an e-format if that allows the company to put them out in a profitable manner, but I am ecstatic with the adventure seeds given with each character, they are perfect for setting off my imagination without tying me down into a structured plot and they also (again) tie the universe and characters together in interesting and fun ways.
They are without doubt one of the best new elements of the new champions line.

rgds
Dean

[Agent X]

<grumble, grumble, grumble> I still want modules.

[Jeff T.]

The flavor of M&M is very impressive, lots of Silver Age coolness. However, now that I've had a chance to play some random encounters and combats for M&M, HERO is still far superior rules-wise in my opinion.

Several Champions modules will be out within the next few months, not bad for a company that is a year-and-a-half old and had essentially one writer up till a little while ago. Hopefully, they will sell well as I'm a big fan of pre-made modules myself. I particularly think the 'multi-module' format could be viable.

[Mutant for Hire]

I view MM as an okay system with an excellent world. I do freely admit I like Freedom City vbetter than Millenium City. The MM people have got atmosphere and style down. For that matter, the same with SAS.

As for modules, I think they need to be carefully written with a view of being retooled for an individual campaign in mind. I know, that makes it much harder to come up with an interesting module, but the fact is that most GMs I expect are playing outside of the regular CU universe.

I'd like to see rather than adventure modules, a book of plots and creating scenarios. I think that would be far more useful. Things like how to balance minions and masters against the PCs and all that sort of thing. What to do when the players get on the wrong track, etc. I think that would be more useful than actual modules.

[JmOz]

No one has mentioned Digital Hero yet, there are adventure in there as well.

I would also point out that a E-Line of modules would be wonderful...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by JmOz
No one has mentioned Digital Hero yet, there are adventure in there as well.
I did too mention it! :)


I would also point out that a E-Line of modules would be wonderful...
I agree. That is why I am really looking forward to Shades of Black and hopefully Engine of Destruction will make it too. I think modules can be a huge factor in dictating the tone of a campaign world. Modules are also a way of learning little details about the world without feeling like you are being preached at. I learned more about how Dr. Destroyer, the Destroyers, and Stronghold fit into the CU from their old modules then I ever did their write-ups in the Enemies or Classic Organizations.

Doug and I can agree that we both want modules. I just hope DOJ is able to give them to us in one form or another.

[Steve Long]

Hopefully, they will sell well as I'm a big fan of pre-made modules myself.

We hope so too. If they sell well (in either format), we'll probably do more (I have a bunch in mind). If they don't, we probably won't do any more in any format. We can't afford to waste time and resources on products that don't sell well.

[Enforcer84]

Just for reference for when I hit the lottery, How much would yo need to see financially to put some of these ideas in print....:D

[Doug McCrae]

It may well be justified and necessary from an economic point-of-view but you're absolutely right - Champions isn't fun.

Not compared with M&M, SAS and V&V. The problem with Champions is, it's generic. It has to cover all aspects of the superhero genre. I mean is the GURPS basic rulebook fun? No, no it is not. But the world books are.

The other superhero rpgs mentioned have a specific tone - Silver Age for M&M and SAS, quirky and somewhat humourous in the case of V&V. All three also have better pictures and presentation, an exception being the George Perez cover for the BBB.

[RevHooligan]

If the peeps want modules, but they're not a moneymaker for DoJ, why don't some of you loudmouths write up some for free and post them up in he-yah? Module fans get their modules, Steve and Co can work on stuff I'll accually buy, Hero Games continues kicking mads heiney, everybody wins!

Damn, I'm clever!

[rayoman]

$17 for an adventure module is way too pricey, IMO.


Originally posted by Agent X
They put out adventure modules!

[djday38]

Although I would not mind modules (and E-Books are the way to go I think) I would love to see the CU universe fleshed out a lot more, we are already seeing this with Viper soon to be and UNTIL and Demon on the schedule.

My question to Steve and Darren is this, will we continue to see the official CU fleshed out over the years? In what directions do you wish to take this? I myself would much prefer to see this than a stream of modules.

rgds
Dean

[Agent X]

Originally posted by djday38
Although I would not mind modules (and E-Books are the way to go I think) I would love to see the CU universe fleshed out a lot more, we are already seeing this with Viper soon to be and UNTIL and Demon on the schedule.

My question to Steve and Darren is this, will we continue to see the official CU fleshed out over the years? In what directions do you wish to take this? I myself would much prefer to see this than a stream of modules.

rgds
Dean I think we will have to disagree on this one. If there is anything more tiresome to me as a player than playing "Battle against the Evil Organizations" every week I don't know what it is. There is far more to the genre than that.

[djday38]

I think you misunderstood me, I did not mean I wanted more Eevil organisations fleshed out, justt that they were what has already been announced on the schedule.

I meant fleshed out in other ways, places, people, more villains, more city books, hero teams, settings like other continents, dimensions, other parts of space etc.

rgds
Dean

[Steve Long]

My question to Steve and Darren is this, will we continue to see the official CU fleshed out over the years? In what directions do you wish to take this?

Sure. A look at the schedule between now and the end of 2004 shows several CU related books -- some organizations, some concept/theme books, a city book, and so on. There's only so much we can do in any given year, since we have a lot of game lines to produce books for, but as time goes by you'll certainly see us poking around in various corners of the CU.

[zornwil]

I agree with the original poster that M&M does a great job with "self-promoting" presentation, a far better one than HERO really BUT...

HERO is a fully nuanced system. I do think 5th Edition was TOO dry in its approach and the writing a bit, well, "legalese". On that note, I feel Steve's writing for this sort of work has improved remarkably (as witnessed in the UNTIL Super Database), which isn't to say it was below part to start with, it wasn't, it just had some aspects that have been improved upon since. Anyway, although 5th ed. was "too dry" in my opinion, it includes a horde of usable examples, it fully details out rules, and it has an EXCELLENT index. It deliberately made a choice of using its space to make the rules as clear as possible, to present playability, and to generally expose the internal consistency of the system (although of course HERO does have some inconsistencies, many of which have been the subject of great debates among the HERO community).

M&M is new and is not fully nuanced by any stretch. There are a number of aspects of balance which are under scrutiny and even with its errata and faq a number of questions that really represent holes in the system - take a look at the level of questions on their board. They represent more fundamental questions than the ones you see in HERO. That's fine, it's a new system,this is NOT a criticism - compare HERO 1st ed. to 5th ed. and you'll see a massive gulf.

So the M&M book has less explication (because there was no real-world "okay, now we have to explain this given what peple ask" experience). Furthermore, much of the space is given to representations of the heroic genre (the little comic strip pieces and such). They willingly valued the presentation above giving more direct rules-related material. Their index is also far less helpful (just try using it during game play, I did in our first game and immediately saw the difference). And in fact I would argue the material is laid out less well, with some things in the "Characteristics" section that bear on "Abilities" or "Combat", requiring mucking about to find things. Just finding a simple ruling on how movement works outside of combat took more time than it should have and we ended up resting on using the vehicle table for simplicity during play - and I don't think that's right, writing this just reminded me to go back and flesh out the real non-tactical movement numbers.

Now that I've tried to really use the M&M book in the heat of gameplay, I can say that I have a solid opinion that the HERO book is much better, for all its "dryness" and lack of hype. Of cousre this is a personal opinion, I recognize others will not agree (but they're wrong :D ). Well, actually, I do go further and I would challenge anyone to prove that M&M's rulebook is really as useful (let alone more useful) in actual gameplay, if you have to look something up. :cool: (donning the sunglasses as there will be flash attacks now).

Furthermore, M&M and HERO are targeting different people. HERO targets gamer geeks and anyone who wants a "complete" system. M&M targets gamers who want something APPARENTLY simpler (let me tell you, I emphatically do NOT think M&M is a simpler system by the way) and value the "feel" of the system more. Neither approach is wrong, just different target audiences. To that end, I think if HERO weighed too heavily on the presentation/glitz side you'd see a loss in its current following, and given its rep it would take a few years to develop a new following. (I'm not suggesting the original poster wants such a change in direction, I understand they indicated nothing "radical").

As far as modules go, I looked at (but did not buy) the Crisis book and I really didn't find it any better than some of the better HERO modules. But this area is hard for me to comment on because I almost never buy modules.

Now, as far as the CU vs whatever the M&M universe is called (M&MU I guess), ah, well, I must say...I like M&MU characters much better. Maybe I'm just seduced by the color - maybe. But I really really like Gimmick and the Pugilist and Protonik, even just the text bits, far far better than anything I've seen in SAS or CU (any version, including the original Champions, though I sort of liked that early early version however dorky). I also like Lady Hex ten times better than the CU sorcerers past or present, although I wouldn't say I really am that excited about Lady Hex per se. I also browsed Freedom City or whatever that is (again, didn't buy it though I might actually though I don't but those sorts of books either usually) and there's a couple promising characters in there as well. I browsed Millennium City and was less interested in those characters, although I will say that some of them seem a bit more interesting than the Champions. Anyway, my point is that I actually WILL use the M&M characters (which is why I might even buy their universe books whereas I've never bought a Champions universe book) in my games and I've never used (I think) a Champions character.

Why the difference to me? Hard to say. Some of it is artwork. The characters "look" more interesting to me. But some of it is also the quotes and actions attributed to the M&M characters. They seem just as genre-correct but somehow less bland to me. Defender and Ironclad and the like seem like overt ripoffs of characters. Gimmick seems entirely original even though she's just as clearly an archetype. By the way, I also like the fact that the artwork presented Gimmick in both her anime-ish look and her "realistic" representation - that went a long way for me in seeing the character in different lights. Oh, and speaking of artworik, the picture of Gimmick playing a game while disarming a bomb was just priceless. Anyway, same with Protonik, the single panel of him far above the world looking down was great, it really made a convincing feel for the character and all it included were a couple paragraphs and a picture. I don't think the deciding factor was the literal color at all, either.

Obviously this is way deep into personal taste. I mean no offense to Steve or anyone else at HERO, I think it's possible they're interested in knowing this sort of reaction as it may influence how they present characters and what choices they make in artwork and writing. But frankly it would make no difference as far as me buying the core books and I suspect for what HERO presents it really is AND SHOULD BE a secondary consideration. In fact I think that HERO will stand for a considerable period of time on its merits as a truly coherent and usable set of rules, something which will require a more detailed, more dry body of work (at least for the rules and genre books that is).

I bring up the characterization of universe archetypes as I think (?) the original poster of this thread is reacting to much the same thing - or at least I'd be interested to hear if he is.

Sorry for the lengthy post, hope it's of interest though.

[zornwil]

Brief PS - re the USPD, the "color" commentary in it was outstanding, and the panels that showed the supers' acting out and the commentary was VERY well-done. It was in fact "M&M-ish" per the comments I made above. A couple or maybe more of those characters mentioned/viewed in passing in USPD will make it into my world at some point I imagine. It would have been great to have seen a little more on a few of them, using them for examples of different things or just some panels from different perspectives (like "we found this video-tape of these 2 supers talking" and showing a couple panels where they discuss powers or one shows another a weapon or whatever).

[Lord Liaden]

Interesting critical analysis, zornwil. I haven't played M&M so I can't really comment on your comparison of in-game utility and clarity, but I'll keep your observations in mind. :)

Since you're thinking of picking up Freedom City, I'm not sure whether you're aware that FC author Steve Kenson posted HERO System versions of many of the characters from that book as a free dowloadable RTF file. As you seem to prefer HERO to the M&M system, that might make the book more worthwhile to you. You can find the stats here:

http://members.aol.com/talonstudio/freedomcity/fchero.html

[lemming]

zornwil, nice critique there.

Though you didn't mention the biggest flaw of M&M:

YOU ONLY ROLL ONE DIE! ONE DIE! WTF! WHERE'S MY HORDE OF DICE!!!?

[Enforcer84]

Originally posted by lemming
zornwil, nice critique there.

Though you didn't mention the biggest flaw of M&M:

YOU ONLY ROLL ONE DIE! ONE DIE! WTF! WHERE'S MY HORDE OF DICE!!!?

No kidding, if I try to throw just one die these days after years of playing hero, I throw out my elbow...

[zornwil]

Originally posted by lemming
zornwil, nice critique there.

Though you didn't mention the biggest flaw of M&M:

YOU ONLY ROLL ONE DIE! ONE DIE! WTF! WHERE'S MY HORDE OF DICE!!!?

Powergamer...

:D

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Interesting critical analysis, zornwil. I haven't played M&M so I can't really comment on your comparison of in-game utility and clarity, but I'll keep your observations in mind. :)

Since you're thinking of picking up Freedom City, I'm not sure whether you're aware that FC author Steve Kenson posted HERO System versions of many of the characters from that book as a free dowloadable RTF file. As you seem to prefer HERO to the M&M system, that might make the book more worthwhile to you. You can find the stats here:

http://members.aol.com/talonstudio/freedomcity/fchero.html

Thanks much!

[Tim]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Monolith
[B]
. There is also Reality Storn debutting at Gen Con

Interesting flub here. Reality Storn, Wow, he gets his own adventure. :D

TimS.

[assault]

Originally posted by Tim
Reality Storn, Wow, he gets his own adventure.

Of course. He gets to fight Foxbat. :)

Alan.

[Tim]

Originally posted by assault
Of course. He gets to fight Foxbat. :)

Alan.

I still put my money on Storn

[Agent X]

Originally posted by djday38
I think you misunderstood me, I did not mean I wanted more Eevil organisations fleshed out, justt that they were what has already been announced on the schedule.

I meant fleshed out in other ways, places, people, more villains, more city books, hero teams, settings like other continents, dimensions, other parts of space etc.

rgds
Dean I see your point.

You know adventure modules can actually be used to provide a great deal of that kind of information. :) To Serve and Protect is an excellent example.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by zornwil
I agree with the original poster that M&M does a great job with "self-promoting" presentation, a far better one than HERO really BUT...

HERO is a fully nuanced system. I do think 5th Edition was TOO dry in its approach and the writing a bit, well, "legalese". On that note, I feel Steve's writing for this sort of work has improved remarkably (as witnessed in the UNTIL Super Database), which isn't to say it was below part to start with, it wasn't, it just had some aspects that have been improved upon since. Anyway, although 5th ed. was "too dry" in my opinion, it includes a horde of usable examples, it fully details out rules, and it has an EXCELLENT index. It deliberately made a choice of using its space to make the rules as clear as possible, to present playability, and to generally expose the internal consistency of the system (although of course HERO does have some inconsistencies, many of which have been the subject of great debates among the HERO community).

M&M is new and is not fully nuanced by any stretch. There are a number of aspects of balance which are under scrutiny and even with its errata and faq a number of questions that really represent holes in the system - take a look at the level of questions on their board. They represent more fundamental questions than the ones you see in HERO. That's fine, it's a new system,this is NOT a criticism - compare HERO 1st ed. to 5th ed. and you'll see a massive gulf.

So the M&M book has less explication (because there was no real-world "okay, now we have to explain this given what peple ask" experience). Furthermore, much of the space is given to representations of the heroic genre (the little comic strip pieces and such). They willingly valued the presentation above giving more direct rules-related material. Their index is also far less helpful (just try using it during game play, I did in our first game and immediately saw the difference). And in fact I would argue the material is laid out less well, with some things in the "Characteristics" section that bear on "Abilities" or "Combat", requiring mucking about to find things. Just finding a simple ruling on how movement works outside of combat took more time than it should have and we ended up resting on using the vehicle table for simplicity during play - and I don't think that's right, writing this just reminded me to go back and flesh out the real non-tactical movement numbers.

Now that I've tried to really use the M&M book in the heat of gameplay, I can say that I have a solid opinion that the HERO book is much better, for all its "dryness" and lack of hype. Of cousre this is a personal opinion, I recognize others will not agree (but they're wrong :D ). Well, actually, I do go further and I would challenge anyone to prove that M&M's rulebook is really as useful (let alone more useful) in actual gameplay, if you have to look something up. :cool: (donning the sunglasses as there will be flash attacks now).

Furthermore, M&M and HERO are targeting different people. HERO targets gamer geeks and anyone who wants a "complete" system. M&M targets gamers who want something APPARENTLY simpler (let me tell you, I emphatically do NOT think M&M is a simpler system by the way) and value the "feel" of the system more. Neither approach is wrong, just different target audiences. To that end, I think if HERO weighed too heavily on the presentation/glitz side you'd see a loss in its current following, and given its rep it would take a few years to develop a new following. (I'm not suggesting the original poster wants such a change in direction, I understand they indicated nothing "radical").

As far as modules go, I looked at (but did not buy) the Crisis book and I really didn't find it any better than some of the better HERO modules. But this area is hard for me to comment on because I almost never buy modules.

Now, as far as the CU vs whatever the M&M universe is called (M&MU I guess), ah, well, I must say...I like M&MU characters much better. Maybe I'm just seduced by the color - maybe. But I really really like Gimmick and the Pugilist and Protonik, even just the text bits, far far better than anything I've seen in SAS or CU (any version, including the original Champions, though I sort of liked that early early version however dorky). I also like Lady Hex ten times better than the CU sorcerers past or present, although I wouldn't say I really am that excited about Lady Hex per se. I also browsed Freedom City or whatever that is (again, didn't buy it though I might actually though I don't but those sorts of books either usually) and there's a couple promising characters in there as well. I browsed Millennium City and was less interested in those characters, although I will say that some of them seem a bit more interesting than the Champions. Anyway, my point is that I actually WILL use the M&M characters (which is why I might even buy their universe books whereas I've never bought a Champions universe book) in my games and I've never used (I think) a Champions character.

Why the difference to me? Hard to say. Some of it is artwork. The characters "look" more interesting to me. But some of it is also the quotes and actions attributed to the M&M characters. They seem just as genre-correct but somehow less bland to me. Defender and Ironclad and the like seem like overt ripoffs of characters. Gimmick seems entirely original even though she's just as clearly an archetype. By the way, I also like the fact that the artwork presented Gimmick in both her anime-ish look and her "realistic" representation - that went a long way for me in seeing the character in different lights. Oh, and speaking of artworik, the picture of Gimmick playing a game while disarming a bomb was just priceless. Anyway, same with Protonik, the single panel of him far above the world looking down was great, it really made a convincing feel for the character and all it included were a couple paragraphs and a picture. I don't think the deciding factor was the literal color at all, either.

Obviously this is way deep into personal taste. I mean no offense to Steve or anyone else at HERO, I think it's possible they're interested in knowing this sort of reaction as it may influence how they present characters and what choices they make in artwork and writing. But frankly it would make no difference as far as me buying the core books and I suspect for what HERO presents it really is AND SHOULD BE a secondary consideration. In fact I think that HERO will stand for a considerable period of time on its merits as a truly coherent and usable set of rules, something which will require a more detailed, more dry body of work (at least for the rules and genre books that is).

I bring up the characterization of universe archetypes as I think (?) the original poster of this thread is reacting to much the same thing - or at least I'd be interested to hear if he is.

Sorry for the lengthy post, hope it's of interest though. I think you have done a very good job at explaining a problem I also identified with the approach to the Champions Universe. The Characters too often seem written more as examples than characters to run with, either as PCs or NPCs. I love the "how to do" approach in the Champions supplements and I am happy that they recognize that every character they present is a "teaching moment," but they need to sell the character as well. Too often, I feel like Champions, and often Champions players, are trying to be clever instead of interesting.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Interesting critical analysis, zornwil. I haven't played M&M so I can't really comment on your comparison of in-game utility and clarity, but I'll keep your observations in mind. :)

Since you're thinking of picking up Freedom City, I'm not sure whether you're aware that FC author Steve Kenson posted HERO System versions of many of the characters from that book as a free dowloadable RTF file. As you seem to prefer HERO to the M&M system, that might make the book more worthwhile to you. You can find the stats here:

http://members.aol.com/talonstudio/freedomcity/fchero.html Thanks for the tip.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X
I think you have done a very good job at explaining a problem I also identified with the approach to the Champions Universe. The Characters too often seem written more as examples than characters to run with, either as PCs or NPCs.
That is a good point, but it happens to be one that I disagree with. I do not think NPC characters should be written in a way that makes them too interesting. IMO, the purpose of the game is to make the players' characters shine, not to make the NPCs fascinating. While something like that can make for fun reading, it can make for very bad gaming when the players are always feeling upstaged by the NPC characters, both in power level and personal development. When I read Freedom City and start thinking that I would rather be playing Daedelus or Seven instead of The Immortal or Ms. Arcane then that seems like a flaw to me.

The Freedom City material is fun to read, and might even make an interesting comic book, but I would not want to game in that enviroment.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
That is a good point, but it happens to be one that I disagree with. I do not think NPC characters should be written in a way that makes them too interesting. IMO, the purpose of the game is to make the players' characters shine, not to make the NPCs fascinating. While something like that can make for fun reading, it can make for very bad gaming when the players are always feeling upstaged by the NPC characters, both in power level and personal development. When I read Freedom City and start thinking that I would rather be playing Daedelus or Seven instead of The Immortal or Ms. Arcane then that seems like a flaw to me.

The Freedom City material is fun to read, and might even make an interesting comic book, but I would not want to game in that enviroment. I have to disagree vehemently on this one. I want the PCs and the NPCs to be as interesting as possible. I don't want my players feeling like they are meeting Generic Support Superhero #15 or Generic Evil Mastermind #41. The more interesting my NPCs the more motivated my players - and their characters actually become more interesting as their imaginations are sparked and they add greater depth to their characters.

[lemming]

I'll agree with Agent X here.

The more interesting thr NPCs, the more the PCs are going to start being interesting.

You don't want NPCs to overwhelm the characters, but you want to throw out many plot hooks that the PCs can hang onto.

Dull boring NPCs will just be so much cardboard scenery. That will just bring the PCs down to the same level.

Though the inverse plays the same way. If the players have boring characters, then the GM will not be inspired either. It's best when there are several sparks from both sides. This will bring out more from the other players as well.

[Jeff T.]

It's possible Monolith's point could be split up into Heroes and Villains. You don't necessarily want powerful and fascinating Hero NPCs all over the place. It is possible they will outshine the PCs. As time goes on they become synonymous with the gameworld itself, ala the characters of D&D's Forgotten Realms, and some players can become annoyed.

Interesting neutrals and villains I'm all in favor of.

[Crimson Arrow]

There's nothing wrong with interesting Hero NPCs. Making them intriguing and special adds flavour to a campaign. It is entirely different from making them outshine the PCs.

I look at this three ways. One, it "raises the bar" for the players. I'll admit that maybe some are not up to creating brilliant heroes (judging from some of the horror stories on this board, some don't appear to be capable of creating halfway decent ones, or heroes at all). However, giving them interesting examples is surely better than going for the lowest common denominator.

Two, they are not necessarily NPCs. You can give them to new players, people whose regular characters are badly injured etc. A bland character is difficult to get into for the player.

Three, even if they are only ever NPCs, interacting with them is more interesting if the characters are themselves. For example, would your PCs find it more exciting to liaise with Triathlon, or with Captain America? This is not the same as allowing the NPCs to dominate. It's a little like how Superman is almost always taken out first in any JLA story. He's most likely to overshadow the others, so he gets tied up elsewhere, hit by magic, or whatever.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Interesting critical analysis, zornwil. I haven't played M&M so I can't really comment on your comparison of in-game utility and clarity, but I'll keep your observations in mind. :)

Since you're thinking of picking up Freedom City, I'm not sure whether you're aware that FC author Steve Kenson posted HERO System versions of many of the characters from that book as a free dowloadable RTF file. As you seem to prefer HERO to the M&M system, that might make the book more worthwhile to you. You can find the stats here:

http://members.aol.com/talonstudio/freedomcity/fchero.html

Hey, that's a spiffy new avatar ya got there, LL. :cool:

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starlord
It's possible Monolith's point could be split up into Heroes and Villains. You don't necessarily want powerful and fascinating Hero NPCs all over the place. It is possible they will outshine the PCs. As time goes on they become synonymous with the gameworld itself, ala the characters of D&D's Forgotten Realms, and some players can become annoyed.

Interesting neutrals and villains I'm all in favor of.
Starlord is correct. Sorry I did not make my post clearer. I was referring to NPC Heroes. I think most of the Champions villains are far more interesting than those in M&M or Freedom City; in fact I do not like any of the villains in M&M, which is the Meta-4 Universe not the Freedom City Universe.

I think the NPC heroes should be interesting, but they should never outshine the PC's creations. The players are the stars of the show and they should not have to feel overshadowed by the likes of a Superman or Justice League in their hometown. That is why putting the Champions in Millennium City is such a good thing; the players never have a reason to feel overshadowed by them. They are equals.

I also did not mean to imply that the CU heroes were dull, because I do not think they are. I think the CU heroes are given in a simple format, and as with everything else in the HERO System, it is then left up to the GM to decide the actual tone. So, for instance, the GM can decide that Dr. Silverback is a happy-go-lucky Hank McCoy, or you can decide that he is a slightly disturbed Hank Pym, obsessed with finding a way to become human.

The HERO System and the Champions Universe has always been a foundation to a good campaign, a starting point for thousands of GMs to build upon. Freedom City is a finished product and is full of finished characters. I think that is the ultimate difference between the two games.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starlord
Hey, that's a spiffy new avatar ya got there, LL. :cool:
Yeah, you both have spiffy new avatars. I am starting to feel left out here. :)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Starlord
Hey, that's a spiffy new avatar ya got there, LL. :cool:

Thanks! High praise from a man of obvious taste. ;)

I hesitated to use it at first because I thought it was too pretentious; then I thought, "This is for a forum about a game where we pretend to be legendary heroes. How much more pretentious could you get?" :rolleyes:

BTW, since you were kind enough to share your reservoir of avatars on the "History" thread, I thought I should at least put up the fine site where I got mine, "Cadfael's Avatars":

http://www.e-cadfael.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Avatars.htm

No animations, I'm afraid, but many famous people, characters and images mixed in. Don't forget to check out the "Collections" at the bottom of the menu.

The smallest of these is 65 X 65, though, so you would need some imaging program to resize them. I used a good freeware program, "Irfanview:"

http://www.irfanview.com/

Hope you enjoy. :)

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Starlord
actually I don't care what you wrote, and snipped, because...

I keep looking at that damn avatar you have now. I admit it, I'm easily distracted by "such things".

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Monolith
[snippage] The HERO System and the Champions Universe has always been a foundation to a good campaign, a starting point for thousands of GMs to build upon. Freedom City is a finished product and is full of finished characters. I think that is the ultimate difference between the two games.

Good point. Regarding sourcebooks and characters represented in sourcebooks, though, I don't want some sort of bland "do something with this" "foundation", I want it to be fleshed out. Otherwise it's just so much paper I gloss over because it doesn't catch my interest. I'm perfectly capable of creating characters on my own; if something isn't going to interest me then I don't need it. A toolkit character is only good to me as a mechanics example and rarely as inspiration.

Regarding rulebooks/systems, though, I prefer the HERO toolkit approach.

By the way, speaking of inspiration in rulebooks, I think M&M does do a good "middle ground" job as I just started reading SAS and it's OVERBEARING in its attempt to get you to get into the spirit of it. Really annoying. It's a good example of too much color/character. (By the way, lemming, if you're reading this, don't worry I don't have (and never had) an interest in running SAS, I just wanted to read through it).