Can someone satisfy my curiosity?

[Dale A. Ward]

Hey, Gang... I need a little information.

After looking over the various threads in the FH forum, it has become obvious to me that the Turakian Age setting is seriously more popular than the Valdorian Age setting.

VA is, apparently, HERO's version of R.E. Howard's Conan world, but I'm not sure about TA.

Anyway, can someone clue me in as to why TA gets more play than VA.

Also, what exactly is TA all about. I've read all that I can find about Kal-Turak, but I'm not equating the scenario to anything that I've read. Is it totally unique and original... or, do I just need to read more?

TIA!

[Steve Long]

I'll leave it to the fans to give you most of the explanation, since I suspect that's more the type of info you're looking for. But in general TA is our "High Fantasy" setting sort of along the lines of Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms. Lots of races, plentiful and powerful magic, gods involved in worldly affairs, all that sort of thing.

[Eosin]

First, I like 'em both. VA has some mechanical concepts that enhance any Fantasy type of game. In hindsight, VA doesn't feel fully formed... Does that make sense? The City of Eliwar (sp?) is fantastic in a REH sorta way but beyond that it is murky.

TA, on the other hand, is built in the spirit of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. If you look hard enough you will find whatever fantasy trope you like, in the form you like, tucked somewhere in this massive place. It is well written and has some inherent conflicts set up, such as the Kal-Turak thinge.

On the whole, both are good but obvious imitations (they were meant to be). I think there is some fairly high hopes that Tula Morn will be the grand slam fantasy setting as it seems to be "historically original" and very anticipated.

You should likely just buy them all (and The Last Dominion while you are at it). It is the only way to be sure that you get everything you want. :celebrate

[Talon]

My suspicion would be..

a) TA came out first, has had more time to build supporters

b) TA is closer to That Other Game, so people looking to convert players with a minimum of fuss might be picking that game.

c) TA is closer to what a friend termed the Generic Fantasy Continuum, the default from which all fantasy-themed RPGs, computer games, etc. proceed

[sbarron]

Anyway, can someone clue me in as to why TA gets more play than VA.

TIA!I think the answer to this is simply that high fantasy generally gets more play than swords and sorcery. I'd bet 70% of fantasy gamers are playing some type of high fantasy game. Especially with LoTR so recently out.

REH is great, but his style of fantasy just isn't as popular for gaming purposes. It might have to do with the lack of easily defined and understood magic. I really don't know. If Arnold ever gets around to making the "King Conan: Crown of Iron" movie, and the movie sticks to the books, then you might see a shift the other way. I sure hope so, because I like low magic games...:thumbup:

[sbarron]

In hindsight, VA doesn't feel fully formed... Does that make sense? The City of Eliwar (sp?) is fantastic in a REH sorta way but beyond that it is murky.I feel exactly what you're describing when I think about VA. But it just dawned on me reading this thread that that's exactly how I feel when I read most Sword & Sorcery fiction. I guess my expectations have been so shaped with fully formed high fantasy worlds that anything else, even if totally appropriate for the genre, just doesn't feel...right. Darn D&D. Darn them to heck! ;)

[input.jack]

I bought them both. Between them and Fantasy Hero, there isnt much else you need to run a great fantasy game! :D


(Youll still need figures...and a map....and, oh yeah, a few Players....)

[mayapuppies]

Players are always handy...:D

[Hugh Neilson]

To me, it always seemed High Magic fantasy evolved from D&D rather than the other way around. In most pre-D&D fantasy literature, magic tended to be of limited use in combat and/or restricted to villains. Wizards tended to be either villains or sage advisors, not the heros of the piece. Even Gandalf casts very few spells in LoTR, and doesn't demonstrate the power we would attribute to a higher level/point spellcaster in most RPG's.

Of course, to allow magic use in a game, it needed to be detailed much more than the "whatever it needs to do for story purpose, it does" approach to fantasy fiction.

Fantasy fiction has bloomed since the mid-1970's, of course, and a wider array of heroes, and more combat suited magic in literature, rode that wave.

[Steve Long]

I'd bet 70% of fantasy gamers are playing some type of high fantasy game.

I'd actually say it's much higher than that.

To me, it always seemed High Magic fantasy evolved from D&D rather than the other way around.

I think, as I briefly touched on in FH, that a more accurate way to put this is that D&D has redefined what "High Fantasy" (and in many respects "Fantasy" in general) for a large segment of the modern audience. Partly this is because it has so obviously influenced many computer "RPGs." D&D has in effect become/established its own subgenre of Fantasy, for better or worse.

[Lord Liaden]

I have noticed a few people on the boards saying that they intend to transplant the city of Elweir to someplace within the Turakian Age world for their campaigns, so as to have a detailed HERO-statted city to use as a base. Elweir, and the low-fantasy magic system, seem to be the two most popular selling points for Valdorian Age.

[ghost-angel]

c) TA is closer to what a friend termed the Generic Fantasy Continuum, the default from which all fantasy-themed RPGs, computer games, etc. proceed
I'm using that term from now on. Elegantly summation of the Fantasy Melting Pot.

[Killer Shrike]

The main thing is that TA is a world book with a broad coverage and VA is really a city book with some vague coverage of the rest of the world.

That aside Sword and Sorcery fantasy hasnt been popular in over 2 decades whereas "High Fantasy" has only gained in popularity.

Anyway here's my review of VA:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=203270

[John Desmarais]

The main thing is that TA is a world book with a broad coverage and VA is really a city book with some vague coverage of the rest of the world.

Too true - unfortunately. VA is quite cool but it I want more detail about the work outside of the city.

Now, if you were looking to do a Thieves' World type of game, it would work really well. The magic feel is suitable and you have LOADS of detail on the city (which is where most of the storie would be occuring anyway).

[Dale A. Ward]

:D

"Ask, and ye shall receive!"

Thanks, guys... this was exactly the info I was needing.

Since I haven't bought either book yet, I was just going by the online descriptions, and the one for TA wasn't ringing any bells. I was actually trying to squeeze Kal-Turak into Thulsa Doom's robes, never realizing that he was already wearing Sauron's.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I prefer the low magic, sword-and-sorcery style of VA, but I'll probably get both since TA is in the majority.

Thanks, again!

[Basil]

One important thing to note: the two grimoires, and MM&M, assume The Tarakian Age as background.

MM&M can, easily, be used with The Valdorian Age, but the grimoires not so easily.



EDIT: Turakian, not Tarakian. Sorry, must have been thinking of Taarna. :eg:

[Dale A. Ward]

Now, that makes a big difference!

[Bismark]

Aside from the fact that the 'High Fantasy' genre is more popular than 'Swords and Sorcery', there is also the fact that the two most 'visible' S&S series are the Conan stories [to the general public] or Moorcock's Elric stories [to the fantasy book geeks]. Both of these settings have their own dedicated games (Conan and Stormbringer/Elric respectively) and the world backgrounds are either [quite- or very-] well covered by the materials for those games as well, so unless the GM or players have a violent dislike for the rules mechanics of those systems, they might as well stick with them. [There are also, of course the hints from Mongoose that they are licensing Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar setting - the third 'classic' S&S setting - for the new RQ4 game].

TA is pretty good as a 'pick-up-and-play' High Fantasy setting as it has a lot of info in it and most ideas can be put in there somewhere (there are obvious omissions race/culture-wise - but we are only dealing with one hemisphere of the planet, after all). It's also familiar to those who have played 'THAT OTHER GAME'.

VA, by contrast, assumes a lot of background reading in the appropriate genre (note all the in-jokes in the street names of Elweir), and it covers, by default, one end of the S&S genre - the 'low magic' end. The world can be tweaked to a higher magic level, but still S&S, by setting the campaign earlier (dragon-riding Elves, indeed - wonder where the inspiration for that came from... ;) ). The world is also nebulously detailed outside Elweir - if the GM puts in a lot of work, much can be done here (if you look carefully, there is a large mixture of cultures there which the GM can make use of - particularly on the continent of Pelosa), but it has less instant familiarity and playability than TA does.

I am doing a VA campaign next academic year, but I am using the players I have in my TA campaign as a starting point, and running TA on alternate weeks. I have also tweaked VA a little to suit my own tastes (200pt characters, no Normal Skill Maxima [but with additional burdens on Sorcerors to compensate for this], and all the Skill Level restrictions retained).

Last, but not least, there isn't a nice electronic (colour) map of Il-Ryveras on the HERO website that people can download, print out and show to prospective players [don't laugh - I got several of my current players based on them seeing my rather spiffy printout of Mr. Curtis' Turakian Age map] :D .

[Thia Halmades]

Actually, Dale, I'd also be happy to contribute any assistance to your ongoing quest, since I've run a low-magic S&S campaign within the rules of d20's inherent high-fantasy, magic & god heavy structure.

Then I broke d20 over me and spanked it like a naughty puppy. But that's another story. Point being, I'm personally (oddly) excited about Tuala Morn, which I hope is not only 'based' on historical bits, but also includes plenty of 'what if' and solid high-fantasy material. As said above, I'm looking for a well blended setting, that leaves the mortals to be mortals and affect the world without a Deus Ex Machina every time you turn your head.

I doubt I'll be dissapointed. I didn't like the cover art for VA :nonp: so I didn't buy it. And the art for TA made me think "Ah... another setting book. Why, G-d? Why?" And I passed on it as well. So for me to say "I'm excited about a setting book" is quite a lot. I can also recommend Sword & Sorcery's Relics & Rituals: Excalibur, which is likely going to have some cross-over information from Tuala Morn. Excalibur is a great setting with some niffo rules, but requires d20, and ... well, utterly fails to make ENOUGH changes to maintain its design & flavor. Great source material, but crap for actually running it.

Sort of like a GURPS supplement.

[prestidigitator]

I hear Midnight is a really awesome setting, and quite a bit different from D&D (a lot lower on the magic scale, though I really don't know if it qualifies as, "low-magic," or not; I don't know enough about it). A friend and I were going to work on possibly converting it to Hero. It's been described to me as a, "What if Sauron had won?" type setting.

[Curufea]

Little world knowledge suits VA though - TA is all established empires and kingdoms for hundreds of years. VA is more frontier and colony in outlook. The "unknown".

[Thia Halmades]

I've flipped through Fantasy Flight's Midnight setting. It's solid. In order to do it in HERO you need to do the following:

Build your class & racial packages as you would normally.
Build power trees for each class - to maintain the flavor of the setting, everyone must pick a Race, a Class, and a Path. The Path determines what additional special abilities (including spells) you can learn. But yes, the nature of the game is "Evil wins. You're ****ed. Go."

[prestidigitator]

I've flipped through Fantasy Flight's Midnight setting. It's solid. In order to do it in HERO you need to do the following:

Build your class & racial packages as you would normally.
Build power trees for each class - to maintain the flavor of the setting, everyone must pick a Race, a Class, and a Path. The Path determines what additional special abilities (including spells) you can learn.
Hmm. I'll remain slightly skeptical about that until I see it myself, probably. Some people would say the same about converting D&D, but I don't see any particular need to constrain concept when I do the latter.

But yes, the nature of the game is "Evil wins. You're ****ed. Go."
Hmm. Rather Call-of-Cthulhu-ish then, eh? As opposed to Star-Wars-ish? :D

[Eosin]

I don't think you need to pick a class anymore than you do for any other d20 to Hero game. If you want to keep the Heroic path (there are much better ways to do this in Hero than assume a level based progression) then you would need to get that flagged at the beginning and the DM would need to create the various "paths." Otherwise it is winging in a few races and going.

The magic system would take a bit of thought and to me is one of the more memorable aspects of the game. The keeper parts are nexuses, draining vitality, and the ability to sence magic. All the rest can be kludged in to a magic system of your choice so long as it isn't common (since you are a dead man if caught).

As to the setting, Midnight is pretty dark. Battle Star Galactica kinda dark but it has an outstanding story and atmosphere. If you are gonna run a LOTR style game where good turns the tide of a seemingly hopeless battle there cannot be a more ripe setting. However, the setting is all about clinging to hope in the knowledge that your kind has been utterly defeated... it is about the small victories.

[Curufea]

Hmm. Rather Call-of-Cthulhu-ish then, eh? As opposed to Star-Wars-ish? :D
Not as such. CoC is loss on the personal level for the gain of humanity in general. Martyrdom and so forth. Anonymous and unacknowledged victories by the unknown few, to save all lifekind. Possibly why it irritates so many - they're need for fame.

I've never come across a CoC adventure that had an "end of the world" event that was unavoidable.

[Thia Halmades]

Eosin - bear in mind that you're talking to someone who still has many trappings of d20isms trapped in his head, despite his best efforts from time to time. There are two things I tend to split - setting & flavor, and mechanics & flavor. When people talk about 'converting' I assume automatically that they're talking about 'mechanics & flavor,' in which case, while I would agree that you don't need to walk up the level based stair well, there's something to be said about building each Path, and making a PC select one, and then offering them the powers/abilities within that framework.

This being Hero, if they say "Hey, I can't do (reasonable thing), can I build it?" then of course you have the flex to say "Yes, that's a (reasonable thing,) go ahead and I'll approve the final design." However, I'm a strong proponent of building in some of the mechanics material for the setting, because in many cases its how players come to terms with the setting itself - through its mechanics.

[Eosin]

While I would agree that you don't need to walk up the level based stair well, there's something to be said about building each Path, and making a PC select one, and then offering them the powers/abilities within that framework.

This being Hero, if they say "Hey, I can't do (reasonable thing), can I build it?" then of course you have the flex to say "Yes, that's a (reasonable thing,) go ahead and I'll approve the final design."

It is your right to use Hero how you like. There isn't "wrong bad fun" here. My opinion is that artifically creating classes is the same as taking a screwdriver to a nail. Wrong tool for the job, but you can still do the job if you are creative. If a DM wants to include package deals, fine. If they want to build escalating "Heroic Paths," fine. If they want to build talents and feets, more power to 'em. If they want to build classes and levels, yeee haw! However, those things are not required to emulate anything with Hero.

When I play d20 I have the exact opposite problem. My characters are all Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Rogues with a level of PrC here and there. I fail to adhere to the truisms of the engine which is that in general you are better specializing in one "role" such as fighter, wizard, cleric or rogue (mind you, I have spent many hours perusing tricked out WOTC-vBB builds that needed 5 or 6 classes but in general taking more than a level or two of a class that isn't devoted to your primary is cutting your own high level throat.)

The overall point of my previous point wasn't to down on you or the way you would go about converting ~ I just disagree with your "build" and we all know that using HERO there are always multiple ways to build the same effect. :celebrate

[Thia Halmades]

Fair enough, and well explained. I can accept that. I suppose that were I to do a 'pure d20 conversion' again there are things I would do differently, including pre-build some/more/all of the spells just to prevent people from tearing their own hair out, but yes. I'll grant (easily) that one mans' conversion is another man's frustration waiting to happen.

[prestidigitator]

I'll give you an example of what I am talking about. While I convert individual Feats and Class Abilities, there is almost never some need to require prerequisites for any of them (an exception might be where one ability is a more advanced version of another, so you have to buy the lesser ability and then upgrade it, but this is rare). So you don't have to be a Fighter of whatever power level with Spring Attack and a 16 Dex to get Whirlwind Attack (or whatever; I don't remember the exact, "chains," and other requirements), and you don't have to have a Rogue's first level Class Abilities to get a Rogue's sixth level Class Abilities.

You should still make sure the abilities work all right with the character's concept, but that is a much, much looser and more fluid restriction than having to be a particular level of a particular Class, and/or having prerequisite Ability Scores and Feats deemed necessary by the game designer. A GM might create a few more guidelines apporpriate to the setting, but there's no need to get as rigid and stifling as D&D's linear progression makes it.