Magic and Mechanics, to you

[Manic Typist]

How do you work magic in your campaigns? What sort of feel do you try for? What sort of limitations and perks do you establish to create the right "flavor?"

Hereditary only? Magic is a force that can be seen by all with the right training? Magic is invisible unless you cast a spell to make it visible? Etc.

[CrosshairCollie]

I generally go for the basic Turakian Age/D&D setup of magic being accessible, widely-known, widely-used, and used to affect sociological development (use in warfare, architecture, agriculture, etc). The only part I regularly write out is 'mundane' materials used in spellcasting and require only expensive/rare/difficult to acquire. I never really cared for the 'flinging bat poop into the air and making stuff explode' stuff, but things like gems or dragon blood, that works.

[katal3]

I overcomplicate my magic systems. no seriously.
Right now I've got one thats basicly Rune-magic, "Permentant Seals" are built using the Craft power presented in FH, and "quick" ephemeral seals all use a prepared casting system (bout -3 in preperation lims, then Delayed effect).
Activating a Seal always costs end (even Delayed effect ones, though I'm hand waving that those don't automaticlly cost end to set), and requires a Skill roll to chanal the energy (failure indicates increased END costs)

[Talon]

Very general question, hard to answer with specifics. I tend to go for "magic is rare" settings; my usual guideline is that mage characters should be notably less combat efficient than non-mage characters (the tradeoff being access to all sorts of interesting effects and abilities, of course).

I find that it's not so much a question of what mechanics you use, but rather establishing a story-based theme for magic and emphasizing that theme over the mechanics. If my players are talking about the nature of magic rather than the game rules for it, I feel I have done my job.

[CourtFool]

One thing I have always tried to incorporate into my magic systems is that magic users can automatically sense magic including other magic users. Sort of like Mental Sense for magic. The stronger the magic, the easier to sense, the more difficult to conceal. If a magic user drops a big bomb (usually high AP) then all the mages/sorcerers/wizards in the area are going to come running to see who is doing what. Not to mention a nasty Demon or two.

[OddHat]

When I re-start my Fantasy campaign, I'll be basing my magic off of David Gemmell's later multiverse.

Without artificial aid and in the material world, most sorcerers are limited to astral projection, ESP, Telepathy and other Ego powers. Many need artificial aids even for that (Lorasium Leaves,etc).

More powerful effects require lengthy rituals and regalia, and cary the risk of side effects (Demon summoning, transformations), or operate at greatly increased END cost (we see shamans throw lightning, a witch use Pyrokinesis, a Wizard use a fireball, etc).

In the Void and beyond (the Astral plane, Limbo, a pocket Hell) we see much flashier effects, so I'd say that the increased END cost vanishes once you leave the material plane.

Certain items (sun or blood charged crystals, the Stones of Power, etc) are more or less portable VPPs with END batteries that only recover in a given circumstance. In the case of the Stones of Power, recharging them with Blood causes them to corrupt the user.

It's an interesting system, and generally keeps Mage types from dominating combat.

[Killer Shrike]

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.shtml

specifically:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign.shtml
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagic.shtml
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicItems.shtml
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicSystemAdvisor.shtml

[Manic Typist]

Very general question, hard to answer with specifics.


Yeah, sorry it's such a vague question, but the topic is so humongous that it really is hard to narrow it down. I'm just trying to get a gauge on different "theories" and "feels" of magic that people like. Anything from your classic Merlin mystery wizard who is highly unique to um... well, Harry Potter I suppose.

Right now I'm trying to decide what I like. It's definately not Merlin or Harry Potter though, so I'm still searching....

Hard to quantify.

[Lord Liaden]

In my games the specifics tend to vary a lot depending on subgenre, setting and power level, although I'm personally fond of powerful, versatile magic that's relatively easy to use. One mechanical build that I often use is Variable Limitations for spells, reflecting that a magician has to do something in order to cast them, but that that something can vary depending on circumstances. I've found that Variable Lim combined with Variable Advantages and Variable SFX make for great flexibility in effect and style without a lot of Power Frameworks.

In settings that cross genres (and HERO handles that better than almost any other game) :) , I've long made a philosophical distinction between the forces of Magic, Technology and Psionics:

Technology is fundamentally wholly outside a sentient being. It operates according to consistent, objectively-understandable principles. Although sentients can learn these principles and how to manipulate them through technology, they cannot alter how they function.

Magic is both outside and inside a sentient being. Although magic exists as a separate force, its form and function can be shaped through act of will and imagination, usually through the focussing discipline of ritual. Magic can be imbued in objects, but the magic within them still requires an active will to employ.

Psionics is wholly within a sentient being. It's generated by living minds, and the only limits on what it can do are the imagination of the psionic individual. One psionic is limited to the power that his own mind can produce, unless he learns to tap into the reserve of power that all minds collectively generate.

In universes where all these forces can act on the physical world, there's some overlap in how they affect each other. In other words, it's possible to build technological devices to blunt psionic attacks, or craft magical barriers that resist technological weapons. In general, though, the more sophisticated the spell, device or psionic discipline, the less it's affected by the other forces.

[Captain Obvious]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27845&highlight=magic+system+critical+review

[Thia Halmades]

I'm just modeling a VPP based roughly on d20 (and according to the one wizard, I captured the feel quite well, using KS's system as a starting point). Hwow would I do magic if I could do it over again?

To be frank, that's an entirely setting based question. magic for my epic campaign is quite different than magic I'd do for my Sci-Fi campaign which has nothing in common with my Ravenloft campaign or whatever else I run next. So there's ... well, there's just too many options to reasonably discuss them all.

Seriously, can you narrow this down?

[Icel]

[Vanor] A Symphony of Magic (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43444) covers pretty well the magic system in my campaign setting Vanor, though not completely finished.

[Dale A. Ward]

The only part I regularly write out is 'mundane' materials used in spellcasting and require only expensive/rare/difficult to acquire. I never really cared for the 'flinging bat poop into the air and making stuff explode' stuff, but things like gems or dragon blood, that works.

~snicker~

Oddly enough, "bat poop" is an excellent source of potassium nitrate which, when combined with sulphur and charcoal, makes black powder...

which makes stuff explode.

:p

[prestidigitator]

~snicker~

Oddly enough, "bat poop" is an excellent source of potassium nitrate which, when combined with sulphur and charcoal, makes black powder...

which makes stuff explode.

:p
So's piss. :)

[Erkenfresh]

The basic concept of my magic system is that anyone can learn to use it through sheer force of will. This makes the associated skill roll EGO based. Casters don't roll every time they cast a spell though, only when trying to research a new one. Spells don't come on scrolls like the other game, you simply think of a spell you want then meditate and practice until it becomes reality (or perhaps fantasy), in a time frame taking 1 day per 10 AP. I allow players to create any spell using the powers in 5ER, but I've split them up into 7 schools: Universal, Restoration, Protection, Summoning, Charm, Elemental, and Transformation. At the end of the time period they make a skill roll at a -1 per 10 AP. Failure means no spell. Success means they add it to their VPP list o' spells.

Having someone who already knows a spell train you gives a nice bonus to the skill roll for learning that exact spell. Also, knowing a similar spell or skill helps. For example creating a fireball spell when you already know fire bolt. Creating a "summon sword" spell gets a bonus if they have PS: Blacksmith or Weaponsmith.

Spells cause LTE, and this is outlined in detail in Killer Shrike's Adeptology magic style. This limits the players from casting spells all day. I avoided using Charges since I preferred a more freeform "sorcerer-like" style of magic over "wizard-like" prepared magic.

Lastly, the most important thing is magic's tie to religion. The main religion of my campaign claims that the Restoration, Elemental, and Transformation schools of magic are gifts by three unique gods. They are adamant that a person is only granted the gift by a single god but the gift spills over into the secondary schools. So, a person could practice Restoration, Protection, and Summoning and be OK with the church. Ahh, but should someone be using Elemental and Restoration, this goes against the church's teachings and they must be getting their power from darker beings! So the church essentially puts a social limitation on "heretics". They don't execute them since they believe murder is wrong, but simply tattoo them so people know not to help them. This helps to limit players from being both an awesome healer and awesome damage dealer, unless they want to roleplay the social limitations in which case they've earned it (one player chickened out during chargen even though he was concerned at his low BODY, STUN, and defenses but stuck with Elemental as his main school).

In reality (or fantasy again) gods have nothing to do with the magic. Whether the party decides to unravel this mystery of the church or not is fine with me. But it could be an interesting plot line. There will be plenty of things to do otherwise though.

[Blue Jogger]

In my current campaign, everybody has a base 5 or less to try and do magic. This increases to an 8 or less if you have a related 11 or less mundane skill (Cooking for kitchen-based spells) or 1 point magical skill (fire magic).

Note that like singing, although everybody CAN do it, not everybody SHOULD do it.

Those who receive training, can get a base 8 or less and buy +1 with magic (5 points) or +1 with a sub-group (3 points) There is a limit of +2 with all magic (they're beginning characters) and a limit of how many bonuses with a sub-group. This is used instead of having a perk. You actually have to invest points at being good at it.

The highest spell that can be cast is 30 active points (2nd level), this is much harder than simple spells of 10 active points or less (Cantrips).

You can maintain up to INT/3 magical items at a time. Things that are one-shot like potions and arrows are counted as if it was an item of so many charges.

Magic is fickle, to that ends, questions about magic are usually answered based on rumors and speculation, hopes and fears. Repeatablity is difficult as trying to repeat a recipe, sure it's usually close, but occasionally it just doesn't work.

Limitations that all magic seems to have: ephemeral (to maintain magic requires work), prep time (a lot harder to just snap your fingers and make it work), personal (while you can give a potion for your friend to drink right away, you can't sell him an item and expect it to work once he walks away from you) and usually some Foci.

[PhilFleischmann]

In my fantasy campaign, magic is based of a few basic ideas:

1) I don't want wizards to be walking artillary platforms.
2) I don't want to hinder the players' creativity.
3) I want to do as little work as possible creating spells and magic systems.
4) Pretty much everyone knows about or has access to magic, but not everyone actually uses it.
5) Magic items are very rare, other than minor items like potions and protective charms.
6) Magic is usually not "flashy". Magic is for doing things you couldn't do otherwise.
7) People use magic in the world because it's useful.

Thus, I allow each player to invent their own magic system. No, they can't do just anything they think of. There has to be a reason why they can do what they can do. In the world, each village/town/city has its own native style of magic that it teaches to its people. Not everyone bothers learning it, but if they do, that's the type of magic they'll know. There's enough room in the setting for players to make up their own villages where they're from. Theoretically, a wizard who spends a good deal of time (years) in another village might learn a second style of magic, but this is rare. It's a little easier if the two styles are similar in some why.
Players will decide for themselves what the limits are on their character's magic. Thus, they don't resent me for forcing a particular style on them.
And powers cost full price (though frameworks are available in many cases), unlike the 1/3 cost in TA. If you want to kill something, use a sword. If you want to kill something at range, use a bow. Don't spend all those points on a fireball, when you could buy familiarity with bows for 2 points.

There are three basic sources of magic. Each village's type uses one of these sources, or a specific combination. They are:
a) "Art" - magic is a force of nature that you can learn to manipulate through study. In B&D terms, this is "Wizard" magic, mostly. It can take almost any form.
b) "Favor" - magic comes from supernatural sentient beings, such as gods. In B&D terms, this is "Cleric" magic, more-or-less. Favor magic also comes in many varieties, depending on the being granting the favor.
c) "Gift" - magic comes from within. Some (all?) are born with it and can bring it out and control it through practice and self-awareness. In B&D terms, this is "Sorcerer" magic, kind of. It usually involves mental/physchic/empathic powers. This is the rarest kind, the other two being about equally common.

[Manic Typist]

I'm just modeling a VPP based roughly on d20 (and according to the one wizard, I captured the feel quite well, using KS's system as a starting point). Hwow would I do magic if I could do it over again?

To be frank, that's an entirely setting based question. magic for my epic campaign is quite different than magic I'd do for my Sci-Fi campaign which has nothing in common with my Ravenloft campaign or whatever else I run next. So there's ... well, there's just too many options to reasonably discuss them all.

Seriously, can you narrow this down?

Actually, I'd rather not. I would like to hear your opinions on why it is appropriate for the different settings to have different magic systems, what those differences should be and for what reason, and how you go about encouraging that feeling.

[CrosshairCollie]

~snicker~

Oddly enough, "bat poop" is an excellent source of potassium nitrate which, when combined with sulphur and charcoal, makes black powder...

which makes stuff explode.

:p

Yes, I know. However, I prefer 'gesture, incant, effect' to 'gesture, incant, throw animal feces, effect'. I don't get much into symbolism.

[Curufea]

I established the physics of magic (thus turning it into science) for my fantasy campaign well before I even started fleshing out the world from the brief notes in the previous edition of Fantasy Hero. Magic, Gods, belief and the mind/intelligence are all linked in my Western Shores. It's tidal and has currents, flows (leylines), whirlpools, storms and other weather.
I don't simulate this with rules as there's no point. I use the basic grimoires for fantasy hero for the PCs and NPCs. It isn't important to the players how magic works - it's important to me, because I have guidelines about what can and cannot be accomplished with magic. For example - three sessions ago the high priests of the nation go together to cast a ground to orbit spell to shoot down an invading alien entry pod. It sucked all the free mana out of the city for several hours - giving most mages headaches and causing magical creatures (such as the elf in the party) to become seriously ill and weakened.
Likewise the invasion of the hive mind aliens polluted the area around them disrupting the use of magic for miles, and reducing the power of a character that was an avatar of Thor as well as making spellcasting quite difficult.
My cosmology is in this thread-
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24531
Hmm, 2004 - that was a while ago :)

[Old Man]

I use either an EC or no frameworks whatsoever. (I prefer the EC as it encourages players to make either mages or mundanes, not characters who know just one or two powerful spells.)

For me what makes Hero magic 'feel' like magic is the limitations, so I pile them on there. -2 is required out of incantations, gestures, concentrate, focus, extra time, rsr and side effect--but really, if you're not limiting the spell to -4 or -5 you're making a Champions superhero, not a wizard.

[keithcurtis]

From the Designer Notes (http://savageearth.net/notes.html) for Savage Earth:
The magic system for the Savage Earth was designed very carefully, with a backward approach. That is, I decided what sort of world I wanted to portray and worked backward towards a "magic economy" that could produce it.

I wanted a typical Edgar Rice Burroughs model of "savage civilization". In many of ERB's novels, cities seem to be fairly isolated. Travel is rare or difficult. One city seems to know little about the other and they are often surrounded by endless tracts of terra incognita. They also seem to lack a lot of the supporting structures that cities require, namely smaller towns, vast systems of agriculture and patterns of trade. This is an inherently difficult construct to support.

To this end, the magic system encourages small pockets of high population density. Magic needs to be limited geographically. There need to be intense pressures that keep people from spreading out. The external pressures are wildernesses filled with a variety of "monsters" that are beyond the technology of muscle and steel to overcome. Reavers are the uppermost threat of course, followed by any number of chimeras, barbarians, riven, mutants and so on. In short, conquering the wilderness is beyond the means of any but the most aggressive and toughest of people.

The magic of adepts is very effective at reducing the hazards of the wilds. Adepts can repel reavers and produce artifacts capable of long term reaver protection. They can produce warriors, weapons and engines of destruction that can overcome most barbarian, mutant and riven threats. Thus, there is a great tendency of people to cluster around adepts for security. By making the training of adepts dependant on arbitrarily placed Standing Stones, they are anchored geographically. This is why there are a small number of large cities (each founded upon a group of Stones), instead of a large number of smaller towns, each with its attendant adepts. By designing a system in which magic fades rapidly as it gets farther from its adept source, cities are made more compact and less likely to spread or colonize.

Initially, the problem of food production becomes paramount. How can these cities produce enough food to support so many people if the lands around them are unsafe for agriculture? The answer is to make food production also dependant upon adepts. Over many years, adepts have developed strains of crops whose yield and nutritional value far surpass even the highest-producing of modern plants. Combined with making most of the cities dependant upon the sea for protein this is sufficient to support an otherwise unlikely population.

To see the details of the system, go here (http://savageearth.net/adepts.html).

Keith "writes too much" Curtis

[Killer Shrike]

Clever. Good stuff!

[Manic Typist]

Very clever actually. I enjoy it.

[Black Rose]

Oddly enough, "bat poop" is an excellent source of potassium nitrate which, when combined with sulphur and charcoal, makes black powder...

which makes stuff explode.

So's piss. :)
Which I firmly think E. Gary Gygax was taking when he came up with the spell system for DnD. I really came in with ADnD (god I loved those books), and while the components were... dramatically apropo, that whole section read like a chuckling shout-out to high school (or possibly college) chemistry and physics. Amber rod and cat's fur for a lightning bolt? Come on now.

[CrosshairCollie]

Which I firmly think E. Gary Gygax was taking when he came up with the spell system for DnD. I really came in with ADnD (god I loved those books), and while the components were... dramatically apropo, that whole section read like a chuckling shout-out to high school (or possibly college) chemistry and physics. Amber rod and cat's fur for a lightning bolt? Come on now.

I don't know if that sort of thing was in the Dying Earth novels that Gygax cribbed his magic system from, but there are real life mythologies that have similar principles and form the basic concept of 'material components'. Concepts like Like Affects Like, Once A Part Of Something Always A Part Of Something (see: Voodoo Dolls), that sort of thing.

So, there was some real-world basis for the material component theory. I just don't happen to like it because I don't want to deal with the bookkeeping. 3rd Edition made me very happy when they just said 'buy a spell component pouch, so long as it's on you, you're good for the cheap stuff'.

[Old Man]

... there are real life mythologies that have similar principles and form the basic concept of 'material components'. Concepts like Like Affects Like, Once A Part Of Something Always A Part Of Something (see: Voodoo Dolls), that sort of thing.

Those are the Law of Sympathy and the Law of Contagion, respectively. Frequently in 'real life' spellcasting, both are invoked, which is why the voodoo doll is constructed to have the same shape as the victim, and should contain something that came from/off the victim.

Or so I hear.

[Lucius]

Yes, I know. However, I prefer 'gesture, incant, effect' to 'gesture, incant, throw animal feces, effect'. I don't get much into symbolism.

Then I have to wonder: Why even bother with the gestures and incantations?

Without symbolism, there is no magick.

Those are the Law of Sympathy and the Law of Contagion, respectively. Frequently in 'real life' spellcasting, both are invoked, which is why the voodoo doll is constructed to have the same shape as the victim, and should contain something that came from/off the victim.

Or so I hear.

Not necessarily “victim.” The techniques for establishing a link are pretty much the same, regardless of what you intend to use the link for.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary suggests it’s probably time to review Bonewitts anyway…

[Old Man]

What better reason to use such a link than to hurt my enemies severely and without fear of repercussion?

Actually I'd probably get carried away. Guests to my place would be like, "Dude, what's with all the dolls?" and I'd say "Uh... um... that's my Beanie Baby collection."

[Captain Obvious]

3rd Edition made me very happy when they just said 'buy a spell component pouch, so long as it's on you, you're good for the cheap stuff'.
That's the way we always played it. The only time you ever had to worry about specifics was if you didn't have your pouch...then you'd have to find some bat poop or whatever...

[prestidigitator]

What better reason to use such a link than to hurt my enemies severely and without fear of repercussion?

Actually I'd probably get carried away. Guests to my place would be like, "Dude, what's with all the dolls?" and I'd say "Uh... um... that's my Beanie Baby collection."
"But how come that one looks like my mommy?"

[Curufea]

Then I have to wonder: Why even bother with the gestures and incantations?

Without symbolism, there is no magick.

Magic without gestures and incantations is psionics :)

[Killer Shrike]

I get very specific about different ways to model "material components" and other objects assoicated w/ Magic use here:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/GeneralSpellRestrictions.shtml#Material%20Componen ts%20and%20Physical%20Objects

[CrosshairCollie]

Magic without gestures and incantations is psionics :)

What he said. :)

[CrosshairCollie]

I was going to edit my previous post, but the board won't let me so anyway ...

To clarify, to me magic is an external power source, psionics is internal. Magic is like most comic books describe cosmic energy; an ambient field of energy (mana, whatever) that pervades the entire universe. It's basically vibration-sensitive; the correct motions (gestures) and sounds (incantations) in the correct combination results in altering the energy field to channel through you and do, to use the technical term, 'stuff'. I can understand the logic of the Sympathy/Contagion principles for aiding a related effect; I just don't like the visuals of the stately, wise wizard of old flinging bat turds or (in the case of D&D's Tasha's Hideous Laughter), a pie at a target. It's purely an aesthetic issue for me (I basically threw out the meaninless components in D&D; everybody gets Eschew Materials gratis).

So, I pretty well stick to Gestures, Incantations, INT-Based Skill Roll, and any 'effect-based' limitations ('not in rain/water' for fire spells, etc.). They still cost END from

Psionics is internal; you don't draw on the power of the universe, your own personal powers tell the universe to sit down, shut up, and do as you say ("Don't MAKE me turn this galactic ascension around!"). Pretty much stick to an EGO-based skill roll and Concentration.

Divine Magic is something I don't particularly care about, since I never run games where gods manifest in anything resembling a direct manner and, most of the time, they're either known to not exist, or their existence cannot be proven conclusively one way or the other (so it's actually 'faith', not 'knowledge' of the divine).

[Kristopher]

To me, in a setting with magic, it's a matter of power and will. Most people need rules and rote and complicated formulae and materials or devices to focus that will. Some don't.

[OddHat]

In my settings I view magic as a mix of making deals with spirits (or ghosts, or gods, or whatever), drawing on personal spiritual powers, and drawing on the spiritual power locked inside objects and substances. "Psionics" concentrates on use of thoses inner spiritual powers, as does Chi based martial arts. Chi, Pionics and magic are different ways of visualizing the same forces, and practitioners of any of these arts can accomplish more or less the same effects (though with different special effects).

[Eosin]

I was going to edit my previous post, but the board won't let me so anyway ...

To clarify, to me magic is an external power source, psionics is internal. Magic is like most comic books describe cosmic energy; an ambient field of energy (mana, whatever) that pervades the entire universe. It's basically vibration-sensitive; the correct motions (gestures) and sounds (incantations) in the correct combination results in altering the energy field to channel through you and do, to use the technical term, 'stuff'. I can understand the logic of the Sympathy/Contagion principles for aiding a related effect; I just don't like the visuals of the stately, wise wizard of old flinging bat turds or (in the case of D&D's Tasha's Hideous Laughter), a pie at a target. It's purely an aesthetic issue for me (I basically threw out the meaninless components in D&D; everybody gets Eschew Materials gratis).

So, I pretty well stick to Gestures, Incantations, INT-Based Skill Roll, and any 'effect-based' limitations ('not in rain/water' for fire spells, etc.). They still cost END from

Psionics is internal; you don't draw on the power of the universe, your own personal powers tell the universe to sit down, shut up, and do as you say ("Don't MAKE me turn this galactic ascension around!"). Pretty much stick to an EGO-based skill roll and Concentration.



I think you are being to absolute in your definition and it certianly doesn't match genre. I can think of several fantasy series with magic that do not meet your predefined criteria.

Generally, I think it is safe to say that the majority of magic comes from an external source but that is about as far as you get with solid definitions and even for that there are exceptions for specific internally described systems of magic that mix internal power and ritual (Camber being the main offender here).

Off the top off my head the Wheel of Time and LOTR both have magic systems that do not use gestures and incantations (LOTR goes both ways).

[CrosshairCollie]

I think you are being to absolute in your definition and it certianly doesn't match genre. I can think of several fantasy series with magic that do not meet your predefined criteria.

Generally, I think it is safe to say that the majority of magic comes from an external source but that is about as far as you get with solid definitions and even for that there are exceptions for specific internally described systems of magic that mix internal power and ritual (Camber being the main offender here).

Off the top off my head the Wheel of Time and LOTR both have magic systems that do not use gestures and incantations (LOTR goes both ways).

Here's the thing ... I've never read a fantasy novel. I don't really care what famous author A or famous author B have in their worlds. What a fantasy series does, or doesn't do, doesn't matter unless I'm saying 'we're running this game in Middle Earth' or 'This is a Wheel of Time game', for instance, which is probably never gonna happen.

My world, my magic, my rules. ;)

[katal3]

Well, that’s all well and good, but its not a very good way to debate the validity of your views. Being comparable to the term "God is all powerful because the bible said so" (well of course it would, god supposedly directly influenced those who wrote it)
Now, the crux of Eosin's argument IMHO was not that your particular views on magic are wrong, simply that he did not agree because where yours views on magic are rooted more in Comic conceptions, his are rooted in literature.
Both have their pros and cons that are derived from the role they play, after all "Form follows Function".
Most literature [that I have read] tends to involve limited magic systems with very specific flavor because that allows the authors to better predict the effects that the ability would realistically have on the ecology and demographics of the populace it is introduced into. One factor also present is that fewer of the characters are inherently magical, though I'm sure there are exceptions, I can only speak from my somewhat limited experience.
Where as my limited exposure to Comic/Manga Magic tends to be more open-ended and powerful; usually with less consideration taken in how that kind of power would realistically affect the development of a culture. Also more of the actual characters tend to be magically inclined, even where magic-users are a small demographic.

Personally, being vain as I am, I prefer magic systems that have a strong cinematic element, and fall closer to the High/Epic fantasy definition then the Low/Epic Fantasy. I just eat up those Epic magical and pseudo magical battles you sometimes see in Anime and manga.

[CrosshairCollie]

Well, that’s all well and good, but its not a very good way to debate the validity of your views. Being comparable to the term "God is all powerful because the bible said so" (well of course it would, god supposedly directly influenced those who wrote it)
Now, the crux of Eosin's argument IMHO was not that your particular views on magic are wrong, simply that he did not agree because where yours views on magic are rooted more in Comic conceptions, his are rooted in literature.
Both have their pros and cons that are derived from the role they play, after all "Form follows Function".
Most literature [that I have read] tends to involve limited magic systems with very specific flavor because that allows the authors to better predict the effects that the ability would realistically have on the ecology and demographics of the populace it is introduced into. One factor also present is that fewer of the characters are inherently magical, though I'm sure there are exceptions, I can only speak from my somewhat limited experience.
Where as my limited exposure to Comic/Manga Magic tends to be more open-ended and powerful; usually with less consideration taken in how that kind of power would realistically affect the development of a culture. Also more of the actual characters tend to be magically inclined, even where magic-users are a small demographic.

Personally, being vain as I am, I prefer magic systems that have a strong cinematic element, and fall closer to the High/Epic fantasy definition then the Low/Epic Fantasy. I just eat up those Epic magical and pseudo magical battles you sometimes see in Anime and manga.

True, given that I have a collection of a couple of hundred comic books and zero novels (my wife is the opposite). For the record, I specifically mean American Superhero Comic Books. (I actually *prefer* the 'you have powers, they're just mystical in origin rather than mutations or tech', no inherent limitations, but that doesn't really work for fantasy games, just Supermages).

And if my magic system is contrary to Anime and Manga ... I'm quite, quite good with that.

[Kristopher]

I use either an EC or no frameworks whatsoever. (I prefer the EC as it encourages players to make either mages or mundanes, not characters who know just one or two powerful spells.)

For me what makes Hero magic 'feel' like magic is the limitations, so I pile them on there. -2 is required out of incantations, gestures, concentrate, focus, extra time, rsr and side effect--but really, if you're not limiting the spell to -4 or -5 you're making a Champions superhero, not a wizard.

Depends on the setting, doesn't it?

[Captain Obvious]

Here's the thing ... I've never read a fantasy novel. I don't really care what famous author A or famous author B have in their worlds. What a fantasy series does, or doesn't do, doesn't matter unless I'm saying 'we're running this game in Middle Earth' or 'This is a Wheel of Time game', for instance, which is probably never gonna happen.

My world, my magic, my rules. ;)
So, if I were playing in one of your games, and I WANTED to throw bat poop while casting a spell, could I?

[CrosshairCollie]

So, if I were playing in one of your games, and I WANTED to throw bat poop while casting a spell, could I?

You could, but it would be entirely voluntary on your part (both you as the player and you as the character), and everybody would look at you like you were, shall we say, mentally deficient. :)

"That's disgusting. Why the $*@( are you *doing* that??!!"

[Eosin]

Here's the thing ... I've never read a fantasy novel.

Wow. Do you run a fantasy game? It would just seem wierd to me if you did (not wrong, just odd). I am trying to remember all the stuff you don't do or like from your posts but cannot remember if you enjoyed fantasy movies.

[prestidigitator]

Here's the thing ... I've never read a fantasy novel.
:jawdrop: Are you serious?! What are you doing posting to this board then? :mad:

;)

Seriously, though. If that is true, you are missing out on a LOT. Whether or not you use any author's particular ideas in your games, there is so much to experience. Pick up the Lord of the Rings! Pick up some Barbara Hambley, or some George R.R. Martin or something. I seriously doubt you will regret it after giving it a chance. :coach:

[CrosshairCollie]

:jawdrop: Are you serious?! What are you doing posting to this board then? :mad:

;)

Seriously, though. If that is true, you are missing out on a LOT. Whether or not you use any author's particular ideas in your games, there is so much to experience. Pick up the Lord of the Rings! Pick up some Barbara Hambley, or some George R.R. Martin or something. I seriously doubt you will regret it after giving it a chance. :coach:

Because I sometimes run Fantasy HERO (and D&D). That is the name of the board, not 'Fantasy Literature', after all. ;)

I read about 20 pages of Lord of the Rings, and simply found it too boring to continue with; I found the Fellowship movie dull as well and never bothered with the other two.

Of course, that's why I game instead of read; I make my own stuff instead of reading someone else's, and I absolutely HATE it when someone says 'nice steal' when I've never READ THE THING THEY CLAIM I'M STEALING FROM.

[Curufea]

Meh.
I have friends that hate the books, and friends that hate the movies - they still like playiing fantasy roleplaying games. Even D&D.
Roleplaying's a separate media type and therefore doesn't necessary overlap with literature or movies.

I've not come across acussations of stealing in games, mainly because the other media I look at I use for inspiration. It gives me a chance to "what if?". Such as "What if the Tyranids from 40k invaded a high magic, high fantasy world?"

[CrosshairCollie]

Meh.
I have friends that hate the books, and friends that hate the movies - they still like playiing fantasy roleplaying games. Even D&D.
Roleplaying's a separate media type and therefore doesn't necessary overlap with literature or movies.

I've not come across acussations of stealing in games, mainly because the other media I look at I use for inspiration. It gives me a chance to "what if?". Such as "What if the Tyranids from 40k invaded a high magic, high fantasy world?"

For some reason, I frequently run afoul of ...

"I was thinking about a world where blah, blah, blah ..."
"Oh, like Author B. Writer's Blah of Blah series."
"Never heard of it."

[oryanfactor]

My background in magic and fantasy lit runs the gamut, being a huge comic book fan (both Marvel and DC), but also enjoying Lord of the Rings, Xanth and way too many movies and TV shows to relate here.

On "stealing" for game plots, it's done all the time, and really, just about everything under the sun has "been done" somewhere. If you think about it, you can find the roots of most sci-fi/fantasy/horror started somewhere else. The 4400 is in a way, related to the Wild Cards series of books, which owes itself to the DC and Marvel Universes, which harken back to Superman, which in turn goes back to Phillip Wyeth's The Gladiator or even Popeye. So, in short, so long as you're doing enough of a mix and match, don't worry about stealing too much. In fact, last night, I was reading up on how the classic film Forbdden Planet is really Shakespere's The Tempest.

On "how I do magic", again, don't sweat it. With comic books especially, mix and match is the rule, so it should work even if a number of magic characters use magic in an incompatible way. Gandalf would sometimes whsper spells, sometimes use components, sometimes not. Zatanna speaks spells backwards, while Dr. Fate seems to channel some sort of Egyptian magic. Dr. Strange uses some personal (internal) magic and sometimes invokes cosmic mystical beings. Meanwhile, in Xanth, magic is inherant and simply is manifested by different beings according to gift.

The only time you need to use magic as a coherent, unified system is when the story itself directly touches opon a particular group of mages who all seem to follow the same system, such as the Homo Magi from DC or the Elves of Tolkien or even the Jedi, in a certain way. Because these characters are conceived as a "family", it may make more sense to have their work magic together.

In fact, unified magic systems is one thing that has put me off in RPG's, typically. D+D requires spell books, components, and the like, while Palladium relies on Ley Line systems. So, my advice is, have fun, write cool stories, and play the magic as your characters seem to use it, and allow the cosmology of magic to mature as the story progresses.

oryan

[Lucius]

A couple of mechanics I used to do Sidhe magic:

Limitation: Capricious. -1/4.
This limitation reflects the inherently unpredictable nature of the forces involved. A spell or other power with the Capricious limitation will at least occasionally function (or fail to function) in an unexpected way; sometimes beneficial, but more often harmful or annoying (it is a limitation after all.) Depending on how much effort the Game Operations Director wants to put into it, each casting of a spell could have something subtly "different" about it, or it could come into play only rarely.



Luck Effects.
Each Sidhe spell had Side Effects: Unluck that applied if the Magick skill roll failed. Each magician using such spells also had "The Luck Effect:" not a spell, but 3 or more dice of Luck with an <=8 Activation Roll (or <=11 if the player wanted to buy it up) in which the Magick skill roll also counted as the Activation roll. That is, every time you cast a spell, you have a chance of failing and acquiring dice of Unluck, and a chance of rolling well and acquiring dice of Luck. It's up to the one running the game when the Luck and Unluck dice are actually rolled and applied (i.e. it does NOT have to happen instantaneously; you could accumulate them and end up walking around with 20 dice of Unluck, not knowing when they're going to fall...) and if dice of Luck and Unluck can "cancel out" or if they all have to be rolled eventually. (Personally I favor having them cancel out, but I could see it either way.)


Lucius Alexander

Me and my palindromedary

[keithcurtis]

Well, since the genre being discussed is Fantasy Hero, and not Champions, I have to disagree a bit. While superhero comics do tend to use a chaotic hodge-podge of origins, systems, rules and styles, most fantasy novels do tend to have unified systems, or at least a commonality, even if the rules are never overtly stated.

As a point of curiosity, why does a unified system put you off? To me, it's a definite plus. Also, by allowing your players to define the system organically, it removes the control over theme and scope from the GM. In the example I gave above, the Savage Earth could not exist as a setting without a GM-imposed "top-down" approach. If I had allowed the players to impose the system, the whole society couldn't function in a believable sense.

I realize this probably comes down to YMMV, but it's funny. Your approach is totally foreign to me.

Keith "unless we're talking about Champions" Curtis

[mayapuppies]

The 4400 is in a way, related to the Wild Cards series of books, which owes itself to the DC and Marvel Universes, ...
I've getting the idea that the 4400 is basically X-Men lite...

Not the direction I was hoping it would go, but what the heck, should be a fun ride.

[oryanfactor]

Keith,

"Fantasy" Hero versus Champions, to me the difference is that Champions is modern day and mostly has guys in masks running around in spandex beating each other up, while Fantasy has elves, monsters and goblins and take place at some indeternimate time in the past. Of course, there are exceptions.

As to what I don't like about unified magic systems, which I expressed in the post, is that you limit your stories, or paint yourself into a corner as the system becomes clearer.

oryan

[Curufea]

Only if magic is a central theme to the campaign and it's undefined nature is important to that. If it's incidental (if every player is not a magic user) then it doesn't need to be unlimited and chaotic.

[katal3]

besides, depending on how "realistily" to paint your structure, your magic system while "limiting" can also provide cohesion to the plot. The magic will also seem a lot more amazing if past experience tells you what the villian is doing seems impossible.
For example, in the story I'm writing the primary form of magic is a quasi-vancian prepared system where you have to draw, etch, carve (etc) a "seal" into something in order to perform that kind of magic.
Now, one of the characters in the story is well known simply because he doesn't seem to have to draw a seal in order to use magic. while whats really going on is that he has a Seal tattoo'd onto his arms which allow him to "Draw" other seals.
Normally said seal is hidden by the cloths he wears, as are the seals he "draws" on his body to cast. thus the impression is given that he he not limited by the system when in fact he's merely found a shortcut.

[prestidigitator]

besides, depending on how "realistily" to paint your structure, your magic system while "limiting" can also provide cohesion to the plot. The magic will also seem a lot more amazing if past experience tells you what the villian is doing seems impossible.
For example, in the story I'm writing the primary form of magic is a quasi-vancian prepared system where you have to draw, etch, carve (etc) a "seal" into something in order to perform that kind of magic.
Now, one of the characters in the story is well known simply because he doesn't seem to have to draw a seal in order to use magic. while whats really going on is that he has a Seal tattoo'd onto his arms which allow him to "Draw" other seals.
Normally said seal is hidden by the cloths he wears, as are the seals he "draws" on his body to cast. thus the impression is given that he he not limited by the system when in fact he's merely found a shortcut.
Hmm. Sort of like the difference between the different Runic spellcasters in the Death Gate series. Those books had a lot of cool detail (but, I have to add, some annoying inconsistencies too. Grr).

[Markdoc]

Also, a common mechanic does not necessarily mean a common style - just as with the example given for the "seal magic" I have a common underlying structure to how magic works in the game world: I want it to be "sword and sorcery" style - powerful, but not overwhelming in combat situations. Specifically, I require concentration and extra time (to make casters vulnerable in direct HTH), a skill roll to temper the use of high AP spells and a requirement that all magic uses LTE, so casters get exhausted if they cast a lot of spells and can need days of rest to recover from a magic-intense battle.

However, every culture has its own style of magic (or styles - there's 3 different kinds of magic in the current game), which deals with these limitations in a different way - there are some cultures who DO have powerful styles of combat magic. Some of these require preparing spells in advance (often well in advance) and triggering them. Other schools specialise in just one or two attack and defence spells and mages work in pairs (or teams) - in both cases, trading combat power for flexibility. In some cultures magic is a gift that anyone can use, if they make the right sacrifices, in others it's closely-guarded secret, taught in ancient schools

This lets me tailor magic to each culture (or just as often, the other way round) so that it's logical, consistent AND flavourful, but remains firmly under my control as a GM, for game balance reasons.

cheers, Mark

[Fenixcrest]

I try to write a fairly detailed "background" document about magic. Basically, why it works, what it looks like, what the conventions and standards of its practicioners are; obviously, these vary in a world where there are multiple types of magic. The game mechanics don't matter so much- if you have the points for it, and I deem it a power that doesn't make me cringe as a GM, then it's yours... but I'll expect an explanation of its effects, how others perceive those effects (appearance, sound, etc), any other campaign-relevant info (which book do you keep it in, what language is it written in, and so on, if these apply).