The archetypes no decent superhero history should be without

[Doug McCrae]

Remember the thread on the old boards It might be an e-mail game.. (http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000638.html) ? It was a discussion about creating the history/back story for a superhero universe and was absolutely excellent I thought, the best thread ever.

I want to revive it by talking about the archetypes one needs for a decent superhero history. The sort that starts in 1938 and includes all the major comics superheroes. Project250 posted a list in the original discussion. Here's my take on it. Is there anything important I should've included but didn't? Anything I did include that you think is unnecessary?


Heroes
Strongman – Superman, Captain Marvel
Avenger – Batman
Avenger: Gun-toting – Punisher, Marshal Law, Lobo
Avenger: Gun-toting cyborg – Cable
Warrior princess – Wonder Woman
Patriot – Captain America
Speedster – Flash
Underwater hero – Sub-Mariner
Weaponmaster – Green Arrow
Winged hero – Hawkman
Magician – Dr. Strange, Spectre, Green Lantern
Scientist – Reed Richards
Monstrous hero – Thing, Hulk, Swamp Thing
Anti-hero – Orion, Luke Cage
Anti-hero: Animalistic – Wolverine
Anti-hero: Hell-spawned – Spawn, Ghost Rider
God – Thor, Sandman
Cosmic hero – Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock
Man of peace – Professor X
Martial artist – Iron Fist, Karate Kid
Martial artist: Ninja babe – Elektra, Psylocke, Zealot
Version 2.0 – SA Flash
Power armour – Iron Man
Non-American hero – Captain Britain
Young hothead – SA Human Torch
Angry black man – Luke Cage
Teenager – Spider-man
Female version – Supergirl, She-Hulk
Shrinker – Atom, Antman
Cartoon animal – Howard the Duck
Costume based on a playing card – Jack of Hearts
Stripper – Lady Death

Hero teams
The GA team - JSA
SA explorers
SA teenagers – LSH, X-Men
The SA team – JLA, Avengers
SA outsiders – Metal Men, Doom Patrol, X-Men
Super-agency – SHIELD
70s non-team
Bronze Age teenagers – New X-Men, New Teen Titans
Non-American team – Alpha Flight
International team – New X-Men, JLI, StormWatch
Image era gun-wielders – X-Force, Youngblood
“What’ll we do tonight, Brain?” – Squadron Supreme, Authority

Neutral
Hidden race – Inhumans, Eternals, Gorilla City
Pantheon – New Gods, Eternals, Olympians, Asgardians
Untrustworthy ally – John Constantine

Villains
Evil version of a hero – Sinestro, Abomination, Titanium Man
Catgirl – Catwoman, Cheetah
Warped scientist – Lex Luthor, Dr. Sivana
Robot - Ultron
Death worshipper – Darkseid, Thanos
Megalomaniac – Dr. Doom
Megalomaniac: Extra-dimensional – Annihilus, Trigon, Dread Dormammu
Pure evil – Red Skull
Militant - Magneto
Monster – Fin Fang Foom
Ruler of a hidden race – Mole Man
Cult leader – Brother Blood
Crimelord – Kingpin, Ras Al Ghul
Cosmic being – Galactus, Beyonder
Psychopath – Venom
Psychopath with style – Joker
Destroyer – Doomsday, Fury, Seth
Mind controller – Mr. Mind
Time master – Kang, Time Trapper
Prankster – Toyman, Mr. Mxyztplk
Immortal – Vandall Savage
Hunter - Kraven
“You fool! Your energy blast only makes me more powerful!” – Parasite, Absorbing Man, Sebastian Shaw
All the powers of a superhero team – Amazo, Super Skrull
Super-gorilla – Titano, Gorilla Grodd

Villain organisations
International criminal conspiracy – Hydra, HIVE
Alien shapeshifters – The Skrulls
Theme team – Serpent Society

[djday38]

Formar villains going straight - Thunderbolts
Villains secretly working for goverment - Suicide Squad
Growth Brick - Giant-Man, Goliath.

just off the top of my head.

rgds
Dean

[Kaeto]

Originally posted by djday38
Formar villains going straight - Thunderbolts




Not anymore. They were written as deciding that to save the world they had to rule it.

And that RUNIED the title for me.

[djday38]

I had stopped picking up the title before then. It does sound like they ruined the concept which made it unique for me.

But I still think the idea of a groups of well known villains attempting to go straight and gain acceptance from the heroic community is a great team concept.

rgds
Dean

[winterhawk]

Pretty cool and comprehensive list...

I would not include "Avenger: Gun-toting cyborg like Cable" because I despise the character, but if your looking to be complete I think you have a good list.

[Rage]

Originally posted by winterhawk
Pretty cool and comprehensive list...

I would not include "Avenger: Gun-toting cyborg like Cable" because I despise the character, but if your looking to be complete I think you have a good list.

Well what about DeathLok instead? Hes a gun toting Cyborg.

[BNakagawa]

SuperPatriot: Captain America

[Enforcer84]

Originally posted by Kaeto
Not anymore. They were written as deciding that to save the world they had to rule it.

And that RUNIED the title for me.
Me too! It reinforced everything I hate about the Big Two Comic Companies.

"NEt Change Zero"

with very few exceptions, the various characters ended up where they started. Heck, they shipped Jolt off to another reality!

Guh!

[Enforcer84]

Oh, and something on topic:

Child becomes a Man: Captain Marvel (Shazam)


Villains:

Honorable Enemy: Kang(Later), Dr Doom
So-Right Wing Conservative as to be evil: Peter Henry Gyrich, The General
Evil Sibling: Black Adam (sorta), Loki

[Karma]

Originally posted by Kaeto
Not anymore. They were written as deciding that to save the world they had to rule it.

And that RUNIED the title for me.

Really? what ruined it for me was what happened after that (you know how they ignored the original characters and turned it into a totally different comic "Thunderbolts 'Comics for Real Men'" B-A-R-F.)
I for one would have liked to see how the 'world domination plans' went and how the various personalities conflicted with each other (I mean the 'World Domination Team' was made up of some interesting personalities, and unlike the orginal Masters of Evil these 'would be benevolent dictators' would have gone about the 'world domination' very differently. No more 'Holding countries to ransom' for them. Even Zemo seemed to have gotten over his 'Captain America' fixation (probably the whole 'I'm cute and Arian again' thing).
Anyway, just ranting about the ruination of a great comic by turning it into Marvel's rip off of 'Fight Club'.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by djday38
I had stopped picking up the title before then. It does sound like they ruined the concept which made it unique for me.

But I still think the idea of a groups of well known villains attempting to go straight and gain acceptance from the heroic community is a great team concept


I loved the concept too, as I loved "Freedom Force" before that (so many teams with that name -maybe it is an archetype of its own). The first ten issues under Zemo were fine, but I really liked it when Hawkeye took over the team. Then it became too much complicated and arcane, with constantly changing membership and powers, deads that kept coming back, two teams, myriads of obscure organisations, etc, it became an ourobouros. Nucleon says don't drown your players in intricate, neverending, overlapping subplots like Thunderbolts did.

Eventually it became a cross between the Masters Of Evil (excellent corny name) and the Defenders. They added heroes designed by the public, which is quite unusual, and brung back to memory sich icons of Marvel's Pink and White period such as Silver Sable.

The new Thunderbolts are another thing entirely. I currently give them a 4-issue tryout.

Well that was off-topic...but liberating.

[Prometheus]

I would also add:

Former Sidekick: Nightwing (or the entire original Teen Titans)
Hero, Disgraced: Hal Jordan, Golden Boy

[Kid Chaos]

also -

Elemental Avenger(s): Swamp Thing, Manthing, The Elementals

Religeous Crusader: Zaurial

Magical Trenchcoat Hero: Hellblazer, Phantom Stranger



About all I can recall I'm sure there are other archetypes though.

[Siberian Tiger]

also..

Hero of the Future sent back in time to save the world - Cable, Terminator2

Clone of a major hero - Superboy, Scarlet Spider

Son/Daughter of a villainous mastermind - Shang-Chi

Shapechanger - Changeling, Mystique

[Kid Chaos]

some I remembered..

Grower - Giant Man, Apache Chief

Entity Possessed Hero - Gargoyle, Etrigan

Hero from Another Dimension - Longshot, Shatterstar


Kid Chaos

[Doug McCrae]

Here's the latest version, incorporating many of the suggestions provided.

My original idea of the essential/useful archetypes for a hero history has changed rather into just trying to compile a list of every major concept that's appeared in comics more than once. So here goes.

Heroes
Strongman – Superman, Captain Marvel
Avenger – Batman
Avenger: Gun-toting – Punisher, Marshal Law, Lobo, The Shadow
Avenger: Gun-toting: Cyborg – Cable
Avenger: Ghost - Spectre
Warrior princess – Wonder Woman, Starfire
Patriot – Captain America
Speedster – Flash
Merman – Sub-Mariner
Weaponmaster – Green Arrow
Magician – Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Green Lantern
Scientist – Reed Richards
Scientist: Inventor – Tony Stark
Monstrous hero – Thing, Hulk, Swamp Thing
Anti-hero – Orion, Luke Cage
Anti-hero: Animalistic – Wolverine
Anti-hero: Hell-spawned – Spawn, Ghost Rider, Etrigan, Gargoyle
Villain turned hero – Hawkeye, Wolverine, Thunderbolts
God – Thor, Sandman
Cosmic hero – Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock
From an alternate future (mutants only need apply) - Rachel, Cable, Bishop
Peacenik – Wonder Woman, Professor X, Dove
Martial artist – Iron Fist, Karate Kid
Martial artist: Ninja babe – Elektra, Psylocke, Zealot
Power armour – Iron Man
Non-American – Captain Britain
Young
Young: The Kid - Iceman, Kitty Pryde
Young: Nerd - SA Spider-man
Young: Hothead – SA Human Torch
Angry black man – Luke Cage
Wisecracker – Spider-man
Version 2.0 – SA Flash
Version 2.0: Legacy – Infinity Inc, modern JSA
Imitators (contemporary) - Scarlet Spider
Imitators (contemporary): Female – Mary Marvel, Supergirl, She-Hulk
Imitators (contemporary): Sidekicks – Captain Marvel, Jr.
Shapeshifter – Metamorpho, Martian Manhunter
Shapeshifter: Shrinker – Dollman, Atom, Antman, Shrinking Violet
Shapeshifter: Grower – Giantman, Colossal Boy
Shapeshifter: Stretcher – Plastic Man, Mr. Fantastic
Shapeshifter: Animals – Changeling, Chameleon Boy
Mentalist – Professor X, Hyp Knox
Schizo woman – Aurora, Rogue
Cartoon animal – Hoppy the Marvel Bunny, Mighty Mouse, Howard the Duck
Costume based on a playing card – Jack of Hearts

Hero teams
The GA team - JSA
SA explorers
SA teenagers – LSH, X-Men
The SA team – JLA, Avengers
SA outsiders – Metal Men, Doom Patrol, X-Men
Agency – SHIELD
70s non-team
Bronze Age teenagers – New X-Men, New Teen Titans
Non-American team – Alpha Flight
International team – New X-Men, JLI, StormWatch
Image era gun-wielders – X-Force, Youngblood
“What’ll we do tonight, Brain?” – Squadron Supreme, Authority

Villains
Evil version of a hero – Sinestro, Abomination, Titanium Man, Black Adam, Professor Zoom
Catgirl – Catwoman, Cheetah
Warped scientist – Lex Luthor, Dr. Sivana
Robot – Ultron, Computo
Wizard – Mordru, Morgan Le Fay
Death worshipper – Darkseid, Thanos
Pursuer of ‘forbidden knowledge’ – Dr. Doom, Metron
Megalomaniac – Dr. Doom
Megalomaniac: Extra-dimensional conqueror – Annihilus, Trigon, Dread Dormammu
Enemy national – Red Skull, Titanium Man
Militant - Magneto
Monster – Fin Fang Foom
Ruler of a hidden race – Mole Man
Cult leader – Brother Blood
Crimelord – Kingpin, Ras Al Ghul
Mercenary
Mercenary: Contract killer – Deathstroke the Terminator, Bullseye
God – Loki
Satan – Mephisto, Trigon
Cosmic being – Galactus, Beyonder
Psychopath – Venom
Psychopath with style – Joker
Destroyer – Doomsday, Fury, Seth
Mind controller – Mr. Mind
Time master – Kang, Time Trapper
Prankster – Toyman, Mr. Mxyztplk
Immortal – Vandall Savage
Hunter - Kraven
“You fool! Your energy blast only makes me more powerful!” – Parasite, Absorbing Man, Sebastian Shaw
All the powers of a superhero team – Amazo, Super Skrull, Taskmaster (sort of)
Super-gorilla – Titano, Gorilla Grodd

Villain organisation
International criminal conspiracy – Hydra, HIVE
Alien shapeshifters – The Skrulls
Theme team – Serpent Society, Force of July
The Government - Sentinels, Dr Kriegstein (from the Authority), Force of July

Other
Hidden race – Inhumans, Eternals, Gorilla City
Pantheon – New Gods, Eternals, Olympians, Asgardians
‘Shapeshifter’ (in Campbellian sense) – John Constantine, SA Namor
The Rightwinger - USAgent, Guy Gardener

[bubba smith]

the martial artists sons of the tiger

[Certified]

Reading this list has reminded me of one very important thing, Marvel just had better names for characters... Okay, it's an opinion but there you go.

Hero Turned Villain: Pyro (Okay, he lives in movie land but I'm sure there are other examples)

Idealist (Fence Sitters who may be heroes of villains depending on how it fits into their end goal.): Magneto

[wrestlinggeek]

I can only see one archetype you left out; the one that (imo) best fits Superman: The First. Doesn't really matter what his powers are (although they do tend to overlap with the Strongman), but he is the First known superhero, and generally considered the greatest in his setting.

[wcw43921]

I can only see one archetype you left out; the one that (imo) best fits Superman: The First. Doesn't really matter what his powers are (although they do tend to overlap with the Strongman), but he is the First known superhero, and generally considered the greatest in his setting.

I concur. There needs to be someone whose good deeds and heroic ideals 1) make the authorities and the public at large accept the idea of costumed crimefighters and superpowered do-gooders, rather than fear the idea of people who can level cities as easily as an average person can crush an anthill; and 2) inspire other people, superpowered and otherwise, to fight evil and help the innocent.

As for explorers, Silver Age or otherwise, there's the Fantastic Four, the Challengers Of The Unknown, and Doctor Who and his companions. The last may not conform to the superheroic model, but they do visit strange and diverse worlds--not to mention fight evil. The Daleks, the Cybermen, the Master--to name but a few--I think most hero teams would cringe at the thought of such adversaries.