Can you drain Power Defense?

[azato]

Seems logical to me.

[Edsel]

There is no rule against it that I am aware of but it would be expensive. Remember that according to page 110 of 5ER Adjustment Powers that target Defenses are at half effect and then you'll have to roll greater than the Power Defense to start draining it.

[Bloodstone]

yes, but but the power defense works against the drain.

And since it's a defense it's twice as expensive to drain as normal.

Lets say you target an opponent with 20 pts of Power Defense. You have a 10d6 Drain and you roll a 30 for effect. Power defense reduces the effect by 20 pts to only 10.

Then, since you are draining a defense, you only get half as much as you normally would. So instead of draining 10 pts of power defense, you only get to drain 5 pts, reducing the targets total to 15.

I think I explained that right... or did I get that backwards... hmm...

[ghost-angel]

No you explained it right. I'm pretty sure.

[sbarron]

What's the SFX of this power?

[prestidigitator]

What's the SFX of this power?
Doesn't matter. We could come up with an infinite number of SFX that could cover it, right? That's the point of the system.

[gojira]

Hmm, I'm not the expert, but I would cut the dice in half first, then apply the defense. So 20 PwrD is going to be pretty much impervious to 10d6 of Drain PwrD. Roll 30 points of effect, half it to 15, 20 PwrD knocks it all out.

I'm trying to think why I can up with this. Maybe just general fairness since players are more often the ones with Power Defense, rather than the villains.

I think one thing I did allow once was Armor Peircing on Drain Power Defense. That I allowed to cut the Power Defense in half, so basically the Power Defense was now even to the half effect from the Drain.

Example: 10d6 Drain PwrD w/ Armor Peircing vs. 20 PwrD. Rolled a 30, half effect gives 15, AP cuts PwrD down to 10, result is 5 pts PwrD drained.

Hella expensive though.

[Bloodstone]

hell with it, I'm just gonna ask Steve what the official order of operations on this is.

[sbarron]

Doesn't matter. We could come up with an infinite number of SFX that could cover it, right? That's the point of the system.Of course you can. But no, I don't think that's the point of the system. My pet peeve is powers created for their mechanical effect rather than an attempt to simulate a given, prestated ability. I just like to see people thinking up powers and then designing them, rather than looking for mechanical ways to maximize effect within the system, then plugging in a sfx after the fact (if at all).

I'm not trying to pee in anyone's cereal, though. The system works just as well either way, and you can have fun either way. :thumbup:

[Bloodstone]

well, for all we know he may not have had an SFX in mind. Might have just wanted to know if such a power construct was possible and, if so, how it worked within the system...

[azato]

Of course you can. But no, I don't think that's the point of the system. My pet peeve is powers created for their mechanical effect rather than an attempt to simulate a given, prestated ability. I just like to see people thinking up powers and then designing them, rather than looking for mechanical ways to maximize effect within the system, then plugging in a sfx after the fact (if at all).

I'm not trying to pee in anyone's cereal, though. The system works just as well either way, and you can have fun either way. :thumbup:

My desire is to have a poison multipower. One of the slots would be a poison that would lower the immunity of the victim.


BTW, I did not know about defenses costing 2x to take out. THANKS.

[sbarron]

My desire is to have a poison multipower. One of the slots would be a poison that would lower the immunity of the victim.[Mr. Burns]

Excellent

[/Mr. Burns]

[Greywind]

It used to be, anything that affected a defense that the defense would cover, was first affected by the defense.

If you build an energy attack that links an ED Drain, the attack itself would have to go through the full ED before the drain took effect.

[Thia Halmades]

Bloodstone, did you put up a request to Steve on the big board?

[Bloodstone]

Bloodstone, did you put up a request to Steve on the big board?

Yep, and it seems I was doing it right. (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46629)

[DEFCON Clown]

Well brag about it why don't ya?
:)

[gojira]

Interesting. Well that just means heroes need a few more points of PwrD, and villains need to be carefully regulated how much Adjustment dice effect they get.

And Adjustment Powers with Armor Piercing now have multiple big-a** stop signs posted all over them. Really nasty.

Actually, this bears somewhat on the discussion in the humongous Power Defense thread. Now there are basically three ways to represent an Adjustment Power that isn't affected (much) by Power Defense: NND, AVLD and Armor Piercing, with AP being the cheapest.

(Editied for grammar and clarity.)

[WhammeWhamme]

Now, what will REALLY fry your noodle, is how does a SUPPRESS Power Defense work...!?!

[Dust Raven]

Of course you can. But no, I don't think that's the point of the system. My pet peeve is powers created for their mechanical effect rather than an attempt to simulate a given, prestated ability. I just like to see people thinking up powers and then designing them, rather than looking for mechanical ways to maximize effect within the system, then plugging in a sfx after the fact (if at all).

I'm not trying to pee in anyone's cereal, though. The system works just as well either way, and you can have fun either way. :thumbup:

I agree with you so long as we're creating a specific power for a specific campaign, to be used by actual characters. But if we are just talking about the game mechanics (as in not actually creating a power for a character), then SFX has nothing to do with it.

[Dust Raven]

It used to be, anything that affected a defense that the defense would cover, was first affected by the defense.

If you build an energy attack that links an ED Drain, the attack itself would have to go through the full ED before the drain took effect.

To clarify, if I used a Drain Power Defense 10d6 against a target with 20 Power Defense, he'd apply his Power Defense before it got Drained, regardless of whether or not it's actually going to have any effect. This really only applies when you used a Multiple-Power Attack, such as a Heat Blast: EB 10d6 plus Drain ED 6d6. The target would get his full ED vs the ED and then the Drain takes effect. It's only logical to assume the same applies if you just use a Drain Power Defense. It seems that such an assumption is correct based on Steve's answer to Bloodstone's question.

[Dust Raven]

Now, what will REALLY fry your noodle, is how does a SUPPRESS Power Defense work...!?!

Good question! Without confirmation from Mr. Long, I'd say it works just like the Drain examples. The full Power Defense would apply versus the Suppress, and even if reduced by it, there is no greater (and infinately cumulative) effect from that use of Suppress, though you could attempt multiple attacks an eventually reduce the target to 0 Power Defense (for a truckload of END and assuming the target's Power Defense isn't so high it completely negates each attack).

[prestidigitator]

It used to be, anything that affected a defense that the defense would cover, was first affected by the defense.

If you build an energy attack that links an ED Drain, the attack itself would have to go through the full ED before the drain took effect.
Still works that way.

[PhilFleischmann]

I'm not trying to pee in anyone's cereal, though. The system works just as well either way, and you can have fun either way.

My desire is to have a poison multipower. One of the slots would be a poison that would lower the immunity of the victim.
One way you could poison someone might be to pee in their cereal.

[WhammeWhamme]

Good question! Without confirmation from Mr. Long, I'd say it works just like the Drain examples. The full Power Defense would apply versus the Suppress, and even if reduced by it, there is no greater (and infinately cumulative) effect from that use of Suppress, though you could attempt multiple attacks an eventually reduce the target to 0 Power Defense (for a truckload of END and assuming the target's Power Defense isn't so high it completely negates each attack).

The real trick is to hit them with the second suppress and drop the first suppress...

Observe.

10d6 Suppress
15 Power Defense

Hit with Suppress. Lower Power Defense to 5. Hit with another Suppress which suppresses 30 AP - i.e. all of it. Drop the first suppress.

[Dust Raven]

The real trick is to hit them with the second suppress and drop the first suppress...

Observe.

10d6 Suppress
15 Power Defense

Hit with Suppress. Lower Power Defense to 5. Hit with another Suppress which suppresses 30 AP - i.e. all of it. Drop the first suppress.

Oooh... munchkiny! I don't think it would work though. After dropping the forst Suppress, the points lost from it would instantly return. The second use wouldn't "take over" at all. Mathematically it would, as the second attack would reduce the PowDEF to -10 and when the first is turned off, only 10 returns for a grand total of 0. But I'd say if the first was turned off, the second would automatically be affected by the returned PowDEF. I'm not sure if that's a by-the-book method of handling it, but the alternative is just too munchkiny.

I suppose another alternative, which involves less questionable rules interpretation, is to require a character to turn off multiple uses of Suppress on a single target in reverse order. So he can't turn off the first use until he turns off the second.