Turakian Age: Changing the Future

[Alcamtar]

The TA setting is intended to be set in earth's past, and the impending conquest of Kal Turak is an important point of continuity leading to the Valdorian age and others. (One reviewer noted that in only ten years Kal Turak conquers the world, putting a finite time limit on any campaign. But it is a slow conquest taking hundreds of years, so there is time enough for multiple campaigns.)

The biggest aspect of this metaplot is that if the heroes oppose Kal Turak, they cannot succeed. There are lots of adventures to be had amid various wars, many victories and defeats, but any victory is hollow and temporary; you may save a country for this generation, but their children are still doomed. This unavoidable doomsday scenario may be heroic and tragic, but it is extremely pessimistic and directly contradicts the two core tenets of epic high fantasy:

1. that with courage and determination, You Can Make A Difference

2. the good guys always win in the end

I'll grant that good may still win... but not within the timespan of any normal campaign, even one spanning multiple generations of heroes. Even if the campaign endures to see the "end" of Kal Turak, Ambrethil is essentially destroyed.

Ultimately, I think this makes the Turakian Age a Swords & Sorcery setting in disguise. It has an undercurrent of [future] science fiction, an ambivalent universe (neither good nor evil seem to win, though evil usually has the upper hand), and ultimately the heroes are insignificant. These are all hallmarks of S&S.

Anyway, all this got me thinking about changing it: what if the heroes defeat Kal Turak? There would be no Takofanes, no Valdorian age, maybe the gods would not go away, and ultimately no "modern world."

What if Kal Turak is an "eternal villain" like Morgoth/Sauron, never succeeding in conquering the world, but never being finally defeated either? I like the idea that the war with Kal Turak goes on for hundreds of years and maybe even leads to a "dark age", but maybe he is thrown back, the world continues on and eventually rebuilds, etc. That is the classic cycle of epic fantasy.

Or, what if Kal Turak is temporarily defeated, and in the power vacuum another dark lord arises? Then when Kal Turak returns to power, he finds he is opposed by an equally powerful rival, and the rest of the world is caught in the crossfire as the two duel for supremacy.

Or, what if Kal Turak goes up against the priests of Thun... and loses? Perhaps the Thunnites awaken their dark gods, who are even worse, and Kal Turak goes on the defensive?

Has anyone played around with ideas along these lines, or based a campaign on it? I'm having a hard time with the idea that the heroes are destined to lose. Losing fair and square is fine, but having no chance of success because of the meta-story feels wrong.

Or maybe Kal Turak is just a local villain; he conquers the northern parts of the map before running out of steam, but the Westerlands are never taken and more distant regions are unaffected. I kind of like this idea: he will conquer the world if nobody stops him, he can be defeated but more likely will only be contained. This leaves room for multiple supervillains: Kal Turak in the north, Thun in the south, etc. The whole "stalemate" concept seems to be a classic trope in epic fantasy as well -- we cannot defeat the bad buy so we contain/imprison him and then watch carefully for any disruption in the status quo. In time people forget, wards fail, etc and a crisis breaks out, until some hero steps forth to deal with it. And so the cycle repeats.

[Lord Liaden]

Here's the premise I would use for this purpose: the future does progress as outlined in the Hero timeline. In the cataclysm of magical forces unleashed by Takofanes' defeat, Ambrethel does indeed cease to exist... in this world. But in the process a major portion of the world of that era - landscape, races, nations - is translated to the Land of Legends, where it continues to endure and progress on its own apart from Earth.

There is a Hero Universe precedent for this kind of event. When the magic goes away from the universe in the year 2020, the undersea kingdom of Atlantis is threatened with the loss of the enchantment that transformed its people into water-breathers. So Marus, ruler of Atlantis, crafts a final great spell to move his entire kingdom to the Land of Legends.

[CourtFool]

I am not a huge fan of the official time line. Not that I do not enjoy the settings that are put out, I just see no reason to try and contrive how they flow from one into another. If I ever used The Turakian Age, I would use it as its own setting whose future is unknown.

Let the characters be significant in their world. We can all be insignificant in this one.

[PhilFleischmann]

I agree with the general sentiment: it's depressing to know in advance that Kal-Turak will conquer the world no matter what you do, and even if you defeat him, he will rise again as Takofanes and conquer the world again, and even if you defeat him, it will cause a cataclysm that will destroy the world. It annoys me to play in a world where the future is determined. When I GM, I use my own world.

However, you are certainly free to change things. A couple of thoughts: even if the world isn't destroyed in the cataclysm, it's still thousands of years between TA and VA, so all the people will have died of something anyway. Except for certain mysterious bits of evidence of a previous age, TA and VA can be considered separate worlds.

A thought I had, but will probably never have the time to actually do :( , is to have a multi-age meta-campaign. PCs in TA may be ultimately defeated by Kal/Tacoface, but they accumulate some knowledge and record it somehow. Then PCs in VA find it and create some powerful artifact which is then lost in the next cataclysm. In the modern age, superheroes battle Taco and eventually discover the artifact and use it against him, etc. So that even if the PCs of one age are unsuccessful, they accomplish something that PCs of future ages can use. So each age contributes to the eventual triumph over the big bad guy (perhaps not until the distant future). I think it would be cool to have such a huge, entire-timline-spanning story arc. I was even thinking about starting the story line back in the Illurian (sp?) period, with the rise of the Lord of the Graven Spear, or perhaps ever earlier than that. Maybe on that scale, Tak is a fairly small player, and the real enemy is the Elder Worm.

etc. The possibilities are unlimitless.

[Krieghandt]

In my timeline, I expect the heros to defeat the first version of Taco, else how can he come back as the undead dude? After beefing the players up to superhero levels, its all up to them to save the world. Or start an epic campaign to find "The Sword That Will Defeat TACO". Official time line? We dont need no steenkin time line.
Krieghandt

[Cold Steel]

Who is to say your heroes didn't defeat Kal-Turak and then he resurrects himself as Takofanes thousands of years in the far future?

Still Takofanes remaining "active" in the Valdorian age is a kickass idea. It lets you change stuff you never like about the setting and so on.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm kinda with the llama on this one.

I'm cool with the timeline as history, for those campaigns where it makes sense. In a Valdorian Age campaign, it's cool to know what the Old Ways were like before the fall. In a Champs campaign, it's cool to know the history, and maybe pull in details from Turakian Age for a scenario or two.

But it's not too cool to play in the Turakian Age knowing that the final battle with Kal-Turak will be a pyrrhic victory, and that everything you were fighting for will be lost anyway.

[Kristopher]

I am not a huge fan of the official time line. Not that I do not enjoy the settings that are put out, I just see no reason to try and contrive how they flow from one into another. If I ever used The Turakian Age, I would use it as its own setting whose future is unknown.

Agreed.

I think trying to shoehorn the various settings into one convoluted timeline was the one really big mistake that DoJ has made with the HERO IP.

[Susano]

I think trying to shoehorn the various settings into one convoluted timeline was the one really big mistake that DoJ has made with the HERO IP.

I'll second that opinion.

And it's worst for the superheroes -- everything they accomplish comes to naught in 2020 or so.

[Thia Halmades]

Well, look at it this way - to an extent, HERO is simply following the example set by everyone else. In d20, you do have multiple worlds - The Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron, DragonLance, Ravenloft, and so on. Each of them has their own internally consistent storyline, and very often campaigns are set during specific periods. F'rinstance, I'm sure there are many FR campaigns that are still set in the Time of Troubles, when the Gods Themselves walked the Earth and completely upended the pantheon, destroying no less than four separate deities and creating two new ones. It was a mess, to say the least.

But it's all predetermined. To play in that setting and remain consistent means you can't stop Baal from being destroyed, or Ilmater from losing a hand, or Cyrus from being the Godslayer. There's nothing for it - these things happen.

In the HERO Metasetting, I understand that there's one major overlord (I've never read any of the setting material, I'm just going by what y'all post) and his rise and fall seems to dictate the ebb and flow of the universe, which makes him more of a concept (Sauron) than a villain (Darth Vader). I even grasp that the rise & fall of magick (an idea likely lifted by Shadowrun, although I don't know if they thought of it themselves or not) is a major concept that drives much of what happens. But - and this is a pet peeve, I suppose - why does anyone ever feel beholden to it?

In other words, how are you calling it a "mistake" when it's simply a matter of creating your setting, building the world and moving forward? If you want Superheroics to be "always on" in the setting, then you come up with a different reason for them to be active! It doesn't have to be "magick" and all evil in the world doesn't have to come from Kal-Turak/Takofanes. He may have his over-plot (Apocalypse, Dark Seid, etc.) but that doesn't prohibit you, the GM, from writing him out of the plotline.

My world setting (the one I'm doing right now, as we speak) has a major over arc meta plot to it, which is directly bound to the movement of the planes. But it has zippy effect on the PCs, except in so far as they get to the end of the story. Most of the histories for these things can be summed up in a single sentence - "... and then there was no more magic. The end. Enter Star Hero." Okay, fine! No problem! We change the sentence. "... and then there was a tremendous cataclysm, which permanently altered the operation of magic. The Old Ways - The First Ways - were now the only access, and the quick & easy path that man had taken was now forever lost." VOILA! Same result, different implementation.

I just don't see the point of worrying about it when it's so incredibly easy to fix.

[John Desmarais]

Interesting you should bring this up. In my Champions (yes, Champions) game the heroes were sent back in time and are currently running around in Turakia. There could very well be changes to the future (their present) as a result of their mucking about in the TA.

[SteelDoom]

I'm considering a plot line where Kal Turak was a normal mage who had a vision that a new type of magic would arise and when that happens the world as he knows it will be destroyed. So he sets to make himself as powerful as possible so he can divert this forseen future, at any cost. The campaign then starts with the players getting involved in the defence against KT and in the process come to the conclusion (with some prompting from divine sources) that only a new type of magic will give them the edge. This new magic will be able to cut through his defences and destroy him! Of course this is the very cataclysmic event that KT predicted. In the end, the final show down the players and KT have the decision to either fight or talk. The players will have to unravel the consequences of their actions and chose wisely because only the Game Operations Director knows which choice will save the cosmos!

Mwuhahahahaa...

[Lord Liaden]

In the HERO Metasetting, I understand that there's one major overlord (I've never read any of the setting material, I'm just going by what y'all post) and his rise and fall seems to dictate the ebb and flow of the universe, which makes him more of a concept (Sauron) than a villain (Darth Vader).

That's actually giving a little more credit to Kal-Turak/Takofanes than even he warrants. ;) During the Age that bears his name, when Kal-Turak arises, he unquestionably grows to be a Sauron-class threat, the greatest force for evil in the world. After his fall, though, he remains buried and forgotten for 65,000 years and the intervening Ages, until reviving in the contemporary era. Even then, although arguably among the biggest threats to Champions Earth, he is still only one of many. However, at no time does Kal-Turak's influence extend beyond the Earth (and the mystic realms adjacent to it). The rest of the galaxy and the universe appears to be oblivious to him as it blithely goes its own way. :)

[Twilight]

I always thought that the reason Kal-Turak didn't obliterate all who opposed him and keep on obliterating them untill people were too broken down to want to resist, was because he was that he was trying to extend his influence to the rest of the galaxy. Y'know, he was busy coveting the whole universe and thus not paying attention when the heroes showed up with Auriala to do him in. :)

[Basil]

Frankly, I say "kick the official timeline in the happysack." Start from wherever you like, and let you and the players shape the "future" without caring what the official timeline says is the result.

[Lord Liaden]

To make the timeline work into the present day of the Hero Universe without destroying the Turakian Age after Takofanes falls, all you actually need is a major planet-reshaping disaster to form the modern geography. As it turns out the destruction of Atlantis during the war with Sharna-Gorak provides one, and the sinking of Lemuria after the Mandragalore misfires provides another.

Since the Valdorian Age appears to leave fewer lasting influences on the modern world than either the Atlantean or Turakian Ages (perhaps because it had less magic), you could easily skate over it and just continue Ambrethel after Takofanes falls. The withdrawl of the gods from the world, and the decline of older civilizations that led to the rise of Atlantis as a world power, can be the result of any events you wish from your own campaign, but without the devastation of the official history. That would give you up to an additional 30,000 years to play around with. ;)

In the end, everything in the Champions Universe can be just as it is in published books: Atlantis, Lemuria, the return of Takofanes, etc. Except that Ambrethel can have a more optimistic future.

[Lord Liaden]

I apologise for the thread necromancy, but I've recently been studying The Turakian Age in detail, and find discussions of the setting interesting, especially if I feel I now have something to contribute. ;)

It occurred to me that if one wanted to keep the Turakian era within the greater Hero Universe timeline, the only events that are really necessary are the ultimate revival of Kal-Turak as Takofanes, and the destruction of the civilization of that era and reshaping of the world's geography. All of the subsequent HU eras proceed from those events. And in the official timeline they occur more than two thousand years after the default start for a Turakian Age campaign. One could have the conflict with Kal-Turak proceed in nearly any manner desired, as long as it ends in his defeat and death, without necessarily altering future eras in any meaningful way. PC heroes could lead a successful war against Kal-Turak in the early years of his attempt at conquest, or even assassinate him before his invasion of the south even begins. That would leave more than two millennia for the world to evolve in whatever way the GM and players prefer.

[DusterBoy]

And even Sauron was a but a shadow of Morgoth Bauglir at the height of his powers in the First Age of the Sun.

And I've never been happy with everything being shoehorned into one timeline. It's one the things I'm unhappy about with the 5th Ed. And Kal Turak has never been one of my favourite characters, even though I recognise the need for a major supernatural threat.

[Alcamtar]

And I've never been happy with everything being shoehorned into one timeline. It's one the things I'm unhappy about with the 5th Ed.
Same for me, it's like an unpleasant aftertaste in an otherwise awesome setting. I hope future settings will break with this idea.

[Alcamtar]

One could have the conflict with Kal-Turak proceed in nearly any manner desired, as long as it ends in his defeat and death, without necessarily altering future eras in any meaningful way. PC heroes could lead a successful war against Kal-Turak in the early years of his attempt at conquest, or even assassinate him before his invasion of the south even begins. That would leave more than two millennia for the world to evolve in whatever way the GM and players prefer.

Good observations. I generally like TA but fighting a losing war is a non-starter for me; there has to be a fair chance to play out either way.

You could sping a grand campaign out of both events...

Start with a cryptic prophecy regarding Kal-Turak's rise and fall. (Keep it sufficiently vague as to not constrict the campaign.) The chronology of the prophecy is confusing, with some events seemingly out of order, and some details about Kal-Turak contradicting each other. But it's too vague to be sure. The reason of course is that the prophecy refers to both Kal-Turak and Takofanes at once, but is not explicit about two separate events, nor about the thousands of years separating them.

The PCs of course are the heroes that finally defeat Kal-Turak, but soon after the defeat are transported forward two thousand years to discover now this guy named Takofanes is threatening the world. They arrive as half-mythical heroes from the past, but nobody believes them. As they research Takofanes they discover he matches the ancient prophecy and piece together that he is Kal-Turak, risen again... and that the same heroes face him both times! Only the prophecy is forgotten and the world is different. Complicating matters, Takofanes is far more powerful than Kal-Turak was... and he bears a nasty grudge. This time they'll win again, but a cataclysm is unleashed signaling the final end of the campaign and the dawn of a new age.

[Chris Goodwin]

Same for me, it's like an unpleasant aftertaste in an otherwise awesome setting. I hope future settings will break with this idea.

Ditto. I couldn't really get behind any of the Hero Universe supplements for that reason.

[Matt the Bruins]

Honestly, it's not so much Kal-Turak himself and the big cataclysm upon his defeat that rubs me the wrong way. It's the whole Tolkein-esque multiple races fantasy set-up existing in the past of the Champions setting. I'd much prefer to have the high fantasy aspects set in the Land of Legends and keep Earth's prehistory more along the lines of Robert E. Howard's fiction.

[Susano]

Honestly, it's not so much Kal-Turak himself and the big cataclysm upon his defeat that rubs me the wrong way. It's the whole Tolkein-esque multiple races fantasy set-up existing in the past of the Champions setting. I'd much prefer to have the high fantasy aspects set in the Land of Legends and keep Earth's prehistory more along the lines of Robert E. Howard's fiction.

Except I recall reading the Tolkien stated Middle Earth eventually becomes our Earth. And Howard has snake-men, strange bat-winged ape-men, and other strange races. Still, putting Turakian Age into its own setting (akin to Tulala Morn) would work better, leaving the CU to have Valdorian Age (which has a strong Howardian feel) and Atlantian Age (which would represent the Greek Age of Heroes).

[Curufea]

There weren't that many races in Middle Earth either-
Hobbits are a variant of Humans.
Presumably Dwarves died out (It's never explained what happened to them) - they are as immortal as Elves, but don't travel to the Undying Lands.
Elves left as you know.
Orcs, Trolls and monsters were all manufactured creatures and not true races - they don't actually breed.
Spiders were presumably wiped out.
Ents would have died off (no Entwives) or reverted to trees

There aren't any other "races" that I can think of in the setting. Goblins being just another word for orc.

[ghost-angel]

Except I recall reading the Tolkien stated Middle Earth eventually becomes our Earth. And Howard has snake-men, strange bat-winged ape-men, and other strange races. Still, putting Turakian Age into its own setting (akin to Tulala Morn) would work better, leaving the CU to have Valdorian Age (which has a strong Howardian feel) and Atlantian Age (which would represent the Greek Age of Heroes).

Tuala Morn fits into the Hero MetaVerse as well, it's not a stand alone setting. It's the first Age after the Atlantean Cataclysm.

There are a number of ways to transition from Age to Age if you want to keep the Hero Metaverse.

Of course, if you don't ever plan on crossing Ages or Campaigns the whole thing is a moot point and nothing more than a publishing conceit. Ignore or take away what you want.

Onto changing the Metaverse's aspects:

The Turakian Age ends about 65,000 BC, and the Valdorian Age starts at about 50,000 BC. Instead of 15,000 years of upheaval and world breaking issues, break it into parts. Maybe Kal-Turak's death throes break some of the land, a few more major events in the lives of the PCs and their Descendants change a bit here and there. An normal earthquake or two. But otherwise it's a nice period of peace and prosperity with little danger involved. A nice Golden Age to punctuate the later times.

The land can slowly change to match the map of the Valdorian Age, and you can bring about the rise of Valdoria into play, and it's eventual fall as things transition into that Ages setting assumptions.

The Atlantean Age is set on the other side of the planet, perhaps as things progress the two worlds interact as merchants from the Turakian lands migrate away from the strife to the new promising lands. For societies there as Lemuria declines due to its own issues, and Atalntis rises as Valdoria finally succumbs to its own decay - it's the perfect setting for a post-apocalyptic Fantasy around the time of Atlantis as well.

You can either continue with Atlantis' written downfall as the Cataclysm, or you can try and work something else in that transitions it to Tuala Morn and onwards.

[Susano]

Tuala Morn fits into the Hero MetaVerse as well, it's not a stand alone setting. It's the first Age after the Atlantean Cataclysm.

I thought it was... but couldn't tell skimming through the book.

[ghost-angel]

Of all the settings currently published Tuala Morn is the least tied into the Hero storyline.

[Lord Liaden]

Honestly, it's not so much Kal-Turak himself and the big cataclysm upon his defeat that rubs me the wrong way. It's the whole Tolkein-esque multiple races fantasy set-up existing in the past of the Champions setting. I'd much prefer to have the high fantasy aspects set in the Land of Legends and keep Earth's prehistory more along the lines of Robert E. Howard's fiction.

Certainly you have every right to prefer things that way, but for my part the multiple-races element of this early era strikes me as very appropriate to the prehistory of Champions Earth. We know that when the Elder Worm ruled this world over a hundred thousand years ago, they tampered with human genetics; that's the main reason the Slug in the modern-day CU can transform humans into Worms. I could definitely see them modifying the base human genome to create humanoid variants with unique capabilities to serve them. To me this is the likeliest explanation for so many of the humanoids in the Turakian era being interfertile -- they're all from the same base stock. OTOH I'd be surprised if the Elder Worm didn't bring some of their alien servants with them when they fled to this planet. That could be the origin of the most non-human Turakian peoples, such as the Migdalars.

As The Turakian Age mentions, the gods of that era also created new races to re-stock their worshippers after the destructive Primeval period. Ultimately, though, the true native sentients of this planet proved most adaptable, prolific, and best suited to surviving here, and so outlasted or supplanted their more alien or specialized rivals.

[L. Marcus]

Of all the settings currently published Tuala Morn is the least tied into the Hero storyline.... There's the Basilisk Orb ... :bounce:

[Lord Liaden]

And the Wild Huntsman, apparently an earlier pre-demonic form of the modern supervillain Samhain.

But g-a did say "least tied," not "non-tied." ;)

[L. Marcus]

O yes. But I would have figured the Valdorian Age. I can't remember one element that's carried over from there, but I may just have not been paying attention. :)

[Lord Liaden]

Well, the Valdorian Age is the lowest-magic period in the time line before "real-world" history begins. Most of the supernatural beings have already died off or withdrawn from the Earth by then, and what magic is left generally isn't competitive with Turakian or Atlantean precedents, let alone the superheroic era.

OTOH according to VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent, Nama and his kin had their origins during the Valdorian Age, although I don't think they had any impact on the continents of Il-Ryvas.

[Lord Liaden]

Getting back more on topic for a moment :p , how would people feel about bumping off Kal-Turak, but keeping Turakia more or less intact? The Ravager's mightiest lieutenants already supervise several regions of it, and with Kal-Turak gone I could see them seizing their fiefdoms in their own names, and probably fighting with each other to establish dominance. The end result could be Turakia united and as malevolent as ever, with an ambitious leader who nonetheless lacks the overwhelming power of the Ravager of Men. A definite menace, but not one that automatically puts the whole world at risk... at least no more so than Thun or Vashkor.

[ghost-angel]

O yes. But I would have figured the Valdorian Age. I can't remember one element that's carried over from there, but I may just have not been paying attention. :)

The Valdorian Setting has very little, but it directly parallels the Atlantean Age. In fact during the Valdorian Age, Atlantis is on the rise (on the opposite side of the globe) so that when the Atlantean Age comes about Valdoria is a barren land of nothing and the PCs can embark on epic fantasy on the other side of the globe.

[ghost-angel]

Getting back more on topic for a moment :p , how would people feel about bumping off Kal-Turak, but keeping Turakia more or less intact? The Ravager's mightiest lieutenants already supervise several regions of it, and with Kal-Turak gone I could see them seizing their fiefdoms in their own names, and probably fighting with each other to establish dominance. The end result could be Turakia united and as malevolent as ever, with an ambitious leader who nonetheless lacks the overwhelming power of the Ravager of Men. A definite menace, but not one that automatically puts the whole world at risk... at least no more so than Thun or Vashkor.

I like that idea.

[Lord Liaden]

And it's worst for the superheroes -- everything they accomplish comes to naught in 2020 or so.

You know, I just noticed this line, and it strikes me (and I mean no disrespect to Susano for this) that it also cuts to the heart of some people's problems with the official Turakian era. Sure, after 2020 superheroes will no longer have their powers, can no longer protect the world in the same flashy way they once did... but does that negate all the good they did before? All the people they helped, the lives that were saved through their efforts?

Similarly, in defeating Kal-Turak -- whether you choose to run that as described in the official timeline, or kill him earlier as suggested here -- the heroes are assuring that millions of people, over thousands of years, can live free and safe from the menace of the Ravager of Men. And even though the ultimate otherthrow of the reborn Takofanes destroyed the Turakian civilization, as a result he was sealed harmlessly away for nearly seventy millennia, while mankind rebuilt their world. Are those really such small accomplishments?

To paraphrase Gandalf, it's for the people of the future to deal with the evils of the future. All we can do today is try to overcome the evils we know, so they won't live on to plague our descendants.

[Susano]

You know, I just noticed this line, and it strikes me (and I mean no disrespect to Susano for this) that it also cuts to the heart of some people's problems with the official Turakian era. Sure, after 2020 superheroes will no longer have their powers, can no longer protect the world in the same flashy way they once did... but does that negate all the good they did before? All the people they helped, the lives that were saved through their efforts?

In some ways, no, but others yes. Suppose a superhero used his powers to create life-saving devices, there's a good chance those won't work come 2020 or so. How about Millennium City? Is all of that technology "real" or is some of it "super-tech"? And what happens when there's no more super?

[ghost-angel]

Personally - that's for published materials to care about. Once I start my campaign I have, by virtue of simply starting the campaign, diverged from published words and can do whatever the heck I want. If a published bit of whatever bothers me there's no gestapo who will stop me. Any kind of sheep-like blind adhereance to "cannon" by virtue of published materials gets everything it deserves.

Kal-Turak lives or dies. The Turakian Age ends in violence for millennia or peacefully declines into nothing. 2020 comes and goes with or without incident. The Mandragalore causes the Cataclysm or Atlantis just sinks because Poseidon liked it better that way. Kind of irrelevant what the books say.

...Here is an interesting thought - Valdoria is actually the remnants of the last empire of the Turakian Age that came out of a relatively non-apocalyptic fall of Kal-Turak.

[Lord Liaden]

All valid points, and of course individual campaigns can and should vary from published precedents in whatever way a game group will have the most fun. :) However, some people do want to work within the official time line, whether for time-travel potential, a source of concepts to carry forward into games set in later eras, or just OCD. ;) I think it's useful to exchange ideas on how to jigger the time line in ways some folks might prefer, without having to throw it out altogether.

[Susano]

Personally - that's for published materials to care about. Once I start my campaign I have, by virtue of simply starting the campaign, diverged from published words and can do whatever the heck I want. If a published bit of whatever bothers me there's no gestapo who will stop me. Any kind of sheep-like blind adhereance to "cannon" by virtue of published materials gets everything it deserves.

Kal-Turak lives or dies. The Turakian Age ends in violence for millennia or peacefully declines into nothing. 2020 comes and goes with or without incident. The Mandragalore causes the Cataclysm or Atlantis just sinks because Poseidon liked it better that way. Kind of irrelevant what the books say.

...Here is an interesting thought - Valdoria is actually the remnants of the last empire of the Turakian Age that came out of a relatively non-apocalyptic fall of Kal-Turak.

GA -- I agree totally.
My comment(s) were based around those people who follow the official/canon timeline closely.

[ghost-angel]

Now I want to play a Valdorian Age campaign where the PCs explore the ruins of a Turakian Age Empire and discover many items and magics of wonder. . . . Dang I hate it when I have awesome ideas I can't play.

[Susano]

Move out here to Maryland.... ^_^

[DusterBoy]

Curufea - the Dwarves aren't immortal, but it's true they don't go the Halls of Mandos. At least not the same part as the Elves.

I suspect Eru Illuvatar would know, but He's not returning my phone calls or emails. :D

[Lord Liaden]

Now I want to play a Valdorian Age campaign where the PCs explore the ruins of a Turakian Age Empire and discover many items and magics of wonder. . . . Dang I hate it when I have awesome ideas I can't play.

That is indeed both awesome and frustrating; but at least putting it up here may inspire someone else. :thumbup:

[Nolgroth]

That is indeed both awesome and frustrating; but at least putting it up here may inspire someone else. :thumbup:I know of a space opera campaign that is about to enter its final phases....

:whistle:

[Lord Liaden]

Now I'm starting to wonder how much of the Sunless Realms survived Takofanes' fall... if you're running a VA campaign, you might not even need to leave Il-Ryvas.

[DusterBoy]

Now I'm starting to wonder how much of the Sunless Realms survived Takofanes' fall... if you're running a VA campaign, you might not even need to leave Il-Ryvas.

Just a small part - it's now called R'lyeh and inhabited by even more monstrous and unpleasant things. :D

[Lord Liaden]

O yes. But I would have figured the Valdorian Age. I can't remember one element that's carried over from there, but I may just have not been paying attention. :)

Even though it isn't explicitly stated in The Valdorian Age or Hidden Lands, it seems very likely that the Silyssen from TVA were the ancestors of the Lemurians. Both are reptilian shape-changers, and the pre-Lemurians were supposed to have arisen during the Valdorian Age. And Allen Thomas wrote the backgrounds for both. ;)

[Narf the Mouse]

Meta-plot = railroad. Dynamite it.