The cost of bases...

[Mithras]

Greeting all. I usually dont write here a lot, but rest assured i read here alot..:)

However, i have stumbled across a slight problem in my TA campaign now. My players would like to purchase a base (preferable a big tower or perhaps a castle), so far so good.
However, i dont know how much a should take for bases since they are merely mentioned in active pointcost and realpoint cost. So any suggestions to help out a fairly new Hero system GM?

Best regards.

[Edsel]

I am not certain what you are asking so here is some general information. The rules for building bases (costs, etc.) start on page 462 of the 5th Edition Revised rulesbook (known as 5ER).

Even though a character gets 5 base building points for each character point that they donate it can still be costly to build a base. For example if you were to build a 50-foot diameter tower with 5 levels it would be equal to 9817.5 Square Feet of floor space. Just paying for the size alone costs about 30 base points which means that the character's would have to donate 6 Character Points just to buy the empty shell. When you do things like buying a magic lab or adding a ballista to the roof or reinforce the walls with extra DEF and BODY the costs add up.

Fortunately you can always buy disadvantages for the base to help offset some of this cost but the disadvantages are normal value (they don't get a multiplier like donated character points).

I have a set of house rules we are using for base building in my Dark Champions campaign and I have attached it to this posting. It is a different genre than Fantasy Hero but costs involved are similar. This document includes house rules for allowing Player character wealth to add building points and guidelines on how role-playing the base building activities can earn role-playing rewards in the form of base building points.

[Mithras]

Thanks for the word file, however i was wondering if there where anyone who know how much gold one should charge different buildings with, or if there where any way of converting Active/real point into a cost of gold..:)

I know im asking for a lot, but my players really would like to buy a base with gold and since its recommended in FH that they should buy bases with gold, im all for it..:)

anyone who could help with that?

Best regards.

[Eosin]

This link (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44290) has suggestions for building domains (counties/duchies). Somewhere in the huge morass is a well researched guess at the costs associated with construction of massive structures (keeps, motte-n-bailey, fortresses). Make sure you look for the terrain modifier located below it.

[Mithras]

Wow!! thanks Eosin. Exactly what i was looking for..:) You have made a grand job on that and for that im grateful..:)

Best Regards.

[Eosin]

Here is the relevant section.

NOTE: A single gold trade bar (gb) is 1 kilogram or 32 troy ounces of gold worth approximately $20,000. Other trade bars (such as silver) have a higher weight but posses the same monetary value.

BASES
Provinces purchase bases for a variety of reasons. The most common base constructed by a Province is a garrison or a fortification. Bases can also be trade centers, abbeys, and other more permanent constructions. Use the standard construction rules for building bases to construct these fortifications. A domain will need to purchase these items with money.

Fortification Prices
It would take a separate book, more than one in all likelihood, to detail appropriate costs and construction methods. Suffice to say, medieval castles took several years to build and often consumed similar financial resources. They were long laborious affairs and not undertaken lightly.

Construction styles in the Last Dominion vary by culture. The primitive Durazzo still build fortifications using wood and earth while the Vintrian Empire maintains hundreds of fortifications reminiscent of the most sophisticated fortresses and fortified cities built in our own past. To complicate matters further, the remnants of massive fortifications built during the last ages before the wars between the Celestine and the Ennwrathi may still be in use. The great Numerian city of Anvers is one such fortification. However, castles are largely representative of the era known as the High Medieval Ages (1,100 to 1,500 AD).

The lists below are meant to provide examples for the gamemaster. They are not meant to be an exact correlation to medieval construction costs. Time of construction is given as an approximation based on the best guesses that I can find, but numerous factors play into construction delays like wars, weather, plagues, and the site of the location itself. Gamemasters should feel free to modify and further develop construction costs to suit the needs of their campaign. The first section of the list, castle construction, gives the price to build specific types of fortifications. The second list is a modifier to the cost based on the terrain in which it is built.

After a fortification is built, it must still be maintained. Each season the owner must pay XXXX

Castle Construction
Hill Fort: These are crude constructions that use natural terrain to offer at least some protection. Hill forts are made by jamming freshly cut and sharpened wooden poles into the earth to form a palisade. Unless the hill fort has seen frequent use, the interior only provides a place to pitch tents.
Cost: 1 gb Construction Time: 10 days

Fortified Manor: Many feudal lords cannot afford the superior protection offered by the motte and bailey fortifications and instead settle on the fortified manor. Other rural lords may simply long for something more comfortable than the cramped confines of a drafty stone keep, so they construct a defensible home in their province. These small walled compounds only afford protection against raiders and poorly organized trollkin. They are easily overwhelmed by organized forces.
Cost: 10 gb Construction Time: 1 season

Motte and Bailey: The motte (hill) and bailey (enclosure) is the most common form of castle construction in frontier lands. An artificial hill is constructed using local dirt and enclosed with a wall, which is usually made of wood. The enclosure or courtyard is called a bailey. On top of the hill and within the bailey, a wood keep is constructed. The lower portion of the keep is typically buried which makes a smaller second hill and forms the last line of defense. Some motte and bailey keeps are formed by building two adjacent hills, with one being significantly higher. This second hill is accessed from a special gangway extending from the bailey of the first.
Cost: 15 gb Construction Time: 1 season

Stone Keep: These small bastions of military strength offer little in the way of personal amenities with only a handful of rooms. The keep or donjon is the strongest single structure and the central focus of the community. The building may only be accessed from the second or third floor and forces would be besiegers to climb rickety stairways under fire or to construct their own means of entry into the keep. There are few windows to light the interior but plenty of arrow slots to peeper opponents. Above all, the keep is a fortification; other concerns are scuttled by the need to create the structure in a way to enhance its function. Most lords do not live within their keeps, instead the building is used to store military equipment and food stuffs incase of siege.
Cost: 25 gb Construction Time: 2 seasons

Castle: The castle is usually constructed over older motte and bailey fortifications. In addition to the high placement and use of a stone keep castles are buttressed by strong stone walls, an inner and outer bailey, and additional internal buildings constructed from stone. Castles are built with an eye for withstanding siege so they are constructed with wells, internal storage facilities, and they can house huge numbers of defenders if needed.
Cost: 40 gb Construction Time: 2 year

Concentric Castle: These are truly impressive strongholds. The concentric castle has multiple layers of defensive walls, usually three or more, that increase in size as the enemy nears the central keep. Gatehouses, barbicans, murder holes, wall towers, kill zones, and other such advanced defensive structures bolster the strength of the walls until the castles are nearly too strong to consider storming. Concentric castles usually fall to a prolonged siege or treachery rather than being taken by force.
Cost: 80 gb Construction Time: 3 years

Fortress: A fortress is similar to a concentric castle but was not designed to be inhabited under normal circumstances. It lies at the center of a warren of walls complimented with moats, cliffs, waterworks, and perilous gangways. The actual fortress may house a small garrison but travel to and from the inner keep is so arduous and time consuming that supplying anything larger than a few dozen men is itself taxing in manpower.
Cost: 60 gb Construction Time: 3 years

Palace: The palace is one of the ultimate expressions of wealth and security. It is a lavish manor built with multiple wings, each holding a dozen or more rooms. Generally, no expense is spared on a palace; stone is imported from far away locations, the most famous architects are hired, and lavish amenities such as indoor plumbing or private baths are built within. A palace must be staffed with a small army of workers such as gardeners, maids, entertainers, courtiers, and cooks making them just as expensive to maintain as they are to build. A palace does not offer any defensive value and may be quickly overwhelmed despite organized resistance. Despite these drawbacks, the palace is regarded as being essential to any lord greater than a provincial lord. Anything less ostentatious is seen as a sign of weakness or poverty.
Cost: 70 gb Construction Time: 2 years

Walled City: This urban zone has erected defensive walls to deter invaders. Nearly all towns possess walls of varying effectiveness. The cost of walls is dependant on height, length, and construction. The average cost for a small town is 30-50 gb with the assumption that the wall is constructed as cheaply as possible.
Cost: Varies Construction Time: 1 year or more

Fortified City: Many cities possess walls that provide token resistance against invaders but few cities are truly fortified. The massive cost in coin, manpower, and time ensure that only the most powerful kings can afford to undertake a project of such magnitude. Less than a dozen fortified cities are found on Roen and these are located at sites of such strategic importance that they cannot afford to be lost. Fortified cities are built using multiple walls, multiple internal bastions, protected gatehouses, and funnels that shunt invaders into kill zones located throughout the city. Construction is regulated to deny the opposition any form of cover or the ability to quickly design a counter-fortress and to ensure that an advancing enemy is nearly always subject to arrow or siege weapon fire.
Cost: 300 gb Construction Time: 10 years

Pricing Adjustments
Mountainous Castles: The cost of fortifications constructed on remote pinnacles that are poorly accessed is four times the base value. Construction takes three times as long. Less surly locations may cost significantly less. Mountainous castles can humble an invading force in a way that few other structures can.

Watery Castles: These castles are typically built on an island or a peninsula and may only be approached on one side by land (though it may be surrounded by water). Massive walls are built right down to, or even in, the waterline to prevent naval assault. Concentric castles are the favored design for a stronghold incorporating a body of water into its defense. In the case of peninsula castles, wide canals are created across the landward face with select bridging points protected by barbicans, which are themselves under protective fire from the first wall. Watery castles cost thee times as much to build but only take slightly longer to build than standard unless the castle ground must be shored up to prevent flooding.

Harbor Castles: These high castles protect ports and the cities associated with them. The harbor castle is strategically placed to punish uninvited maritime traffic but those same needs often place it in a vulnerable position for a landward assault. Many cities build small harbor fortifications to defend against a naval invasion but use other fortifications as their main defensive strongholds. Harbor castles have a standard cost and construction time.

City Castles: The city castle is often called a bastion or a garrison and it provides protection from invading armies and, just as importantly, from unruly inhabitants. The urban garrison has needs that are unique to its environment including ready accessibility, high traffic volumes, and multiple sally points. Construction within a city takes far less time than rural construction but it is also significantly more expensive due to strong guilds. The cost is double the standard.

[Eosin]

Wow!! thanks Eosin. Exactly what i was looking for..:) You have made a grand job on that and for that im grateful..:)

Best Regards.

Thanks.

[Krieghandt]

Monetary wise, REAL expensive. If they were to 'aquirer' one, then I would look at how many followers/henchmen the keep would provide. If getting money is the campaign motivator, make it a money pit as well. If you dont want to deal with finances, make sure it makes enough to support the characters. To be honest, a base is usually a GM plot device, so build it, then tell the players what its going to cost. If it needs to be cheaper, add some plot hooks (disads) on it.
Krieghandt

[Mithras]

Thanks for the ideas Krieghandt..:) Rest assured that there will plenty of adventures hooks on the base they will purchase..:) I will place it in Keldravia, rather close to Valicia, so they will be right between 2 great armies sooner or later when war will occur between them (in my campaign it will come to war between them) :)

[Thia Halmades]

All your base are belong to us.


What?


Hero is a strange bird, since most folk automatically assume that points need to be spent on everything, whereas in d20, gold=points, effectively. Looked at through that lens, their both variations on wealth management, you just have much more fine control in HERO than you do in d20. You can allow them to pay gold for the base, but where are they going to find it all? Further, how is your party structured? Are you giving out magick items and making them all Independent? Are they selling things for Gold? Where does that much gold come from? Who's minting it?

Just curious.

[Rapier]

Bases can really cost. For a five or six person team you are probably gonna need about 10 - 20 points donated per character.

These don't have to be given up all at once. You can drag them out a bit at a time (everyone donates 5 up front and 1xp per night thereafter until paid up).

You are playing FH. Not everything has to necessarily cost only points. I would consider allowing my players to defray a portion of the cost with cash. How much would all depend on the exchange rate. It even makes kind of sense. In a FH world, people are going to want to be paid in some kind of manner that they can use to put food on the table...and CPs aren't it.

Thinking on it. I think I would require the players to spend some cash to build, buy or outfit a base.

[Thia Halmades]

Agreed - which is why I asked about the source of funds (SOF as we bankers say). CP doesn't put food on the table, but then, how much GP do you charge? If you (like me) use a Silver based economy, how much Gold does it cost to hire a contractor, order supplies, ship those supplies (no, folks, the stones don't magically appear there) pay for the labor, additional parts, timber, and so on? It takes six months to build a HOUSE. A 1200 SQUARE FOOT HOUSE. SIX. FREAKING. MONTHS. Unless you're on Extreme Makeover Home Edition, you're going to be at this a while.

And people don't work 24/7. They need rest, or they burn out. Also, medical treatment in the middle ages was crap. You're going to lose workers to disease, attrition, injury, and so on. No workers comp (or soup) for you!

I could go on like this, but bear in mind, I run a pretty realism-heavy campaign. I don't look at history, I look at common sense. Stones & Timber need gotten. Professionals need contracted. Then you'll need to install a garrison of forces to hold your castle so it doesn't get ruined while you're out adventuring. It's an incredible money sink. Things to think on.

[Mithras]

Oh, well i run a more High Fantasy game Thia Halmades. But your input are greatly valued of course.

However, i feel it does not feel good (and the good book says that in heroic campaign bases, weapons and such are bought with monetary resources - in this case Gold) to force the player to pay points/xp in this heroic campaign.

However it was rough to find out how much some buildings would cost, but thanks to Eosin my life got easier..:)

I do know how long time things takes (and took way back in history) to build, but thats what the "high" in high fantasy takes care of..:)

I greatly appretiate every input..:)

Best regards.

[prestidigitator]

I have rather successfully used a pricing scheme that calculates the base cost of equipment on the Active Points and/or Real Cost of the equipment, and then varies it based upon the availability of materials and crafting skills and such. It really has to be done independently for each campaign setting, though, as economics, level of magic (High Magic can drive down the cost of normal equipment because of alternate magical solutions) and such vary a LOT from game to game and place to place.

I've found that a relationship that goes something like this works okay for the base cost (before things like material and skill availability are factored in):
EDIT: INCORRECT. See posts below.

baseCost = M*2^[(A*R-B)/C]

M - Cost of baseline equipment: something with A*R = B
A - Active Points
R - Real Cost
B - Baseline Active Points and Real Cost; A*R for your baseline piece of equipment that costs M
C - A divider. If cost is doubled for every +20 Active Points or every +5 Real Cost, then C = 20*5 = 100
I've really only used this for personal equipment, but some variation might work for bases and vehicles.

[Thia Halmades]

Ooo... Algebra. Mr. Presto? Mr. Presto! MR. PRESTO!!

Yes, Thia, what is it?

Could you post an example on the board, Mr. Presto? I only grasp mechanics in motion!

[prestidigitator]

Sure. I'm just going to pull numbers out of my a**, since I don't have anything concrete in front of me ATM.
EDIT: INCORRECT. See posts below.

For a certain setting, I decide to make Weapon A my baseline piece of equipment. The build for Weapon A comes to 40 Active Points and 10 Real Cost. I want Weapon A to have a base cost of 10 Silver Marks (SM). For other equipment, I want each +20 Active Points to double the cost of the equipment, and I want each +5 Real Cost to double the cost of the equipment (note that if a piece of equipment goes up by both +20 AP and +5 RC, its price will be quadrupled--doubled once for each). So:
M = 10 SM
B = 40*10 = 400
C = 20*5 = 100
This makes the equation for the base equipment cost:
base cost = (10 SM)*2^[(A*R - 400)/100]
Now to determine the price of Item B, which happens to be built with 38 Active Points and a 3 Real Cost, I use:
(10 SM)*2^[(38*3-400)/100] = (10 SM)*2^[(114-400)/100] = (10 SM)*2^(-286/100) = (10 SM)*2^-2.86 ~= (10 SM)*0.138 = 1.38 SM ~= 1.4 SM
To determine the price of Item C, which happens to be built with 38 Active Points and a 11 Real Cost, I use:
(10 SM)*2^[(38*11-400)/100] = (10 SM)*2^[(418-400)/100] = (10 SM)*2^(18/100) = (10 SM)*2^0.18 ~= (10 SM)*1.13 = 11.3 SM ~= 11 SM
To determine the price of Item D, which happens to be built with 48 Active Points and a 17 Real Cost, I use:
(10 SM)*2^[(48*17-400)/100] = (10 SM)*2^[(816-400)/100] = (10 SM)*2^(416/100) = (10 SM)*2^4.16 ~= (10 SM)*17.9 = 179 SM ~= 180 SM
This makes costs exponential with respect to Active Points and Real Cost, BTW, which will actually happen to translate in a sense to real Character Points in the Money Perk (just a lot finer grained than rounding off to full Character Point values using a straight multiple). It means something that gives a relative benefit in combat might very well be significantly more expensive. If you don't like this, you can change the divider (C) to double the price a lot less quickly, or you can go with a non-exponential relationship like simply:
base cost = M*(A*R-B)/C

[prestidigitator]

Oops. I think I made a mistake in my basic formula, actually. I think what I actually wound up using last time was more like:
base cost = M*2^[(A/C)+(R/D)-B]

M - Cost of baseline equipment: something with A = C and R = D
A - Active Points
R - Real Cost
B - Baseline for Active Points and Real Cost; (A/C)+(R/D) for the baseline equipment that costs M
C and D - Dividers. If cost is doubled for every +20 Active Points or every +5 Real Cost, then C = 20, and D = 5.
I'll repost the same examples with the corrected equation to give a better idea of what the cost variations should look like.

[prestidigitator]

Here is the example I gave above updated for the correct equation:
For a certain setting, I decide to make Weapon A my baseline piece of equipment. The build for Weapon A comes to 40 Active Points and 10 Real Cost. I want Weapon A to have a base cost of 10 Silver Marks (SM). For other equipment, I want each +20 Active Points to double the cost of the equipment, and I want each +5 Real Cost to double the cost of the equipment (note that if a piece of equipment goes up by both +20 AP and +5 RC, its price will be quadrupled--doubled once for each). So:
M = 10 SM
C = 20
D = 5
B = (40/C)+(10/D) = 40/20+10/5 = 4
This makes the equation for the base equipment cost:
base cost = (10 SM)*2^[(A/20)+(R/5)-4]
Now to determine the price of Item B, which happens to be built with 38 Active Points and a 3 Real Cost, I use:
(10 SM)*2^[(38/20)+(3/5)-4] = (10 SM)*2^(1.9+0.6-4) = (10 SM)*2^-1.5 ~= (10 SM)*0.35 = 3.5 SM
To determine the price of Item C, which happens to be built with 38 Active Points and a 11 Real Cost, I use:
(10 SM)*2^[(38/20)+(11/5)-4] = (10 SM)*2^(1.9+2.2-4) = (10 SM)*2^0.1 ~= (10 SM)*1.1 = 11 SM
To determine the price of Item D, which happens to be built with 48 Active Points and a 17 Real Cost, I use:
(10 SM)*2^[(48/20)+(17/5)-4] = (10 SM)*2^(2.4+3.4-4) = (10 SM)*2^1.8 ~= (10 SM)*3.5 = 35 SM
Yes. That looks much better. I knew something was way off. (Additive exponents become multiplied factors. :o )

My other statements about the general use of the formula and its relation to the system still apply.

[PhilFleischmann]

For example if you were to build a 50-foot diameter tower with 5 levels it would be equal to 9817.5 Square Feet of floor space. Just paying for the size alone costs about 30 base points which means that the character's would have to donate 6 Character Points just to buy the empty shell. When you do things like buying a magic lab or adding a ballista to the roof or reinforce the walls with extra DEF and BODY the costs add up.
I know this is slightly off-topic, but this part of the rules has always bugged me. So I eliminate it! :thumbdown 6 character points to buy empty floor space?! No freakin' way! The Size of a base gives you *nothing* in game terms, and therefore should never cost character points. You should only pay point for the actual game benefit you get. Assuming you have to pay points for the base and its equipment in the first place, you would have to pay for the magic lab and balista and the defensive value of the walls. You pay for content, not the container. It would be like paying for the physical size of a gun in a superhero game, in addition to the DC's of the attack it produces.

[Mithras]

prestidigitator, mighty god.. a whole lot of math..:)

I think i have to reread it a few times so i grasp it, i didnt think i was that bad on math until i saw that one coming..:nonp:

[katal3]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but this part of the rules has always bugged me. So I eliminate it! :thumbdown 6 character points to buy empty floor space?! No freakin' way! The Size of a base gives you *nothing* in game terms, and therefore should never cost character points. You should only pay point for the actual game benefit you get. Assuming you have to pay points for the base and its equipment in the first place, you would have to pay for the magic lab and balista and the defensive value of the walls. You pay for content, not the container. It would be like paying for the physical size of a gun in a superhero game, in addition to the DC's of the attack it produces.
Well it isn't entirely true that your getting "nothing" for the afore mentioned "Empty Shell" Aside obviously from getting storage space for an Armory (Fantasy characters usually end up knit out like the 4th armored devision by the end of quite a few games). It also provides space you could Rent out (assuming the base is in a town) to craftsmen or mages. Alternativly the space can be used for Parties social events etc. and Living space is always a pleasent thing to have.
That Aside, by having your base "there" it means that no one else can use that space for anything else. And the Lord "BBEG" certainly isn't going to build his Tower of the Necro-Deatho Booki-Con anywhere near the Heros Hovel.
Anyway I got no problem with paying points for my living space.

[prestidigitator]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but this part of the rules has always bugged me. So I eliminate it! :thumbdown 6 character points to buy empty floor space?! No freakin' way! The Size of a base gives you *nothing* in game terms, and therefore should never cost character points. You should only pay point for the actual game benefit you get. Assuming you have to pay points for the base and its equipment in the first place, you would have to pay for the magic lab and balista and the defensive value of the walls. You pay for content, not the container. It would be like paying for the physical size of a gun in a superhero game, in addition to the DC's of the attack it produces.
Huh. You have a point there. I think having a dramatically larger space can be a bit of an advantage, especially because powers bought for the Base often cover the whole area for free. But maybe the default (starting) size of a Base could be increased, or the rate at which the size increases with Character Points (e.g. double the length and width--or quadruple the area--for every 2 points instead of every 6). This might be best changed on a per-campaign basis though.

[PhilFleischmann]

Well it isn't entirely true that your getting "nothing" for the afore mentioned "Empty Shell" Aside obviously from getting storage space for an Armory
Would you make characters pay points to have an ordinary house to live in? Storage space is not worth anything in game terms. It's like having an Immobile Focus that isn't attached to any actual power. The stuff you put in the storage space may well be worth points. But should you have to pay for the bathrooms and hallways, etc.? (See "Building a toilet")

(Fantasy characters usually end up knit out like the 4th armored devision by the end of quite a few games).
In D&D maybe, but not in my game!

It also provides space you could Rent out (assuming the base is in a town) to craftsmen or mages.
If you're collecting rent income, that's the Money Perk.

Alternativly the space can be used for Parties social events etc. and Living space is always a pleasent thing to have.
And what is that worth in game point terms? Maybe a positive Reputation: "Throws good parties," "Has a nice house,"

That Aside, by having your base "there" it means that no one else can use that space for anything else. And the Lord "BBEG" certainly isn't going to build his Tower of the Necro-Deatho Booki-Con anywhere near the Heros Hovel.
It does? Players Bases get attacked all the time. Stuff happens. Focuses get taken away/broken, powers get drained/suppressed/dispelled, followers get injured/killed, and bases can be attacked/encroached upon/burgled/etc.

In general, paying for base size feels too much like paying for special effects to me.

[Kortay Mirlor]

For example if you were to build a 50-foot diameter tower with 5 levels it would be equal to 9817.5 Square Feet of floor space. Just paying for the size alone costs about 30 base points which means that the character's would have to donate 6 Character Points just to buy the empty shell.
Say what? Five 7.62 meter radius circles is 912.1 square meters. A "hex" is 3.5 square meters (close 'nuf for gummint work ;) ), so you got 260.6 hexes. That's 15 or 16 points:



cost area
14 200
16 320



I'd say 15 cause its smack dab midway tween 200 and 320.

[katal3]

Well, Coming from DnD perhaps my perceptions are somewhat off base. but if I remember correctly the Variable Special Effects advantage is paying for special effect; so there is precedent, but I digress.
I think part of the decision was that there had to be some classification in regards to area size to account for the fact that having a larger base is more advantageous then having a smaller base. Like any potential advantage, there has to be a corresponding cost or there is no incentive to be frugal.
Now as to your earlier question PhilFleischmann, I might require the character purchase a house as a base, depending upon the circumstances and the setting. But in most cases I would consider a Home appropriate to ones wealth level to be an Everyman.
However, just because one doesn’t have to pay CP for it, doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be represented in HERO Mechanics. FH Equipment is a prime example, in most games (certainly most I’ve played in anyway) Equipment doesn’t Cost Points, but is still represented as a power or other construct unless it’s potential benefits are utterly out of scale with the system rules. Boots for example generally don’t have a “power-construct� unless they have some kind of Anti-Gravity-O-Mat built in or an enchantment to make you fleet of foot if you wear them.
Now in my games I plan on using the Dark Champions Resource Pool optional rules, thus that Castle would be considered a much more temporary purchase point wise, and should the party lose it to the afore mentioned Lord BBEG from the Tower of the Necro-Deatho Bookie-con then maybe the party can reinvest in a smaller more secure dungeon that they just “cleared-out� while they plot their revenge on Lord BBEG.

[PhilFleischmann]

I think part of the decision was that there had to be some classification in regards to area size to account for the fact that having a larger base is more advantageous then having a smaller base.
Really? What is that advantage? If your 12d6 EB gun is three feet long and mounted on your shoulder or if it's once inch long and mounted on your index finger, it still costs the same amount of points.

Like any potential advantage, there has to be a corresponding cost or there is no incentive to be frugal.
There is a corresponding cost, but not in CP, in money (both to purchase/rent, and for security/maintainance/overhead) and availability. I'm not saying that a PC has equal access to a peasant's hovel or a mansion at his whim!

Now as to your earlier question PhilFleischmann, I might require the character purchase a house as a base, depending upon the circumstances and the setting.
I just can't see any reason for doing this. You can do what you think is appropriate for your games of course, but I generally assume that it shouldn't cost CP just to have a place to sleep, eat, entertain guests, etc. Now if you've got weapons built into your house, or magical/technological devices that add functionality beyond what would be in a normal living space, then yes, that would have to be paid for. Examples include a "troub-alert" computer, crime lab, a palantir, a guard dragon, a moat with dangerous things in it, traps, seige engines, teleportation gate.

However, just because one doesn’t have to pay CP for it, doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be represented in HERO Mechanics.
Well if you don't have to pay CP for it, then I have no argument at all. I have no problem with paying for base size by some other means, and would in fact require it in most cases.

[katal3]

Really? What is that advantage? If your 12d6 EB gun is three feet long and mounted on your shoulder or if it's once inch long and mounted on your index finger, it still costs the same amount of points. Actually there could very well be a difference if the two weapons were built according to their SFX. The larger gun would likely be a Bulky OIF, while the other a might be an IAF or IIF, Also the two weapons could also have very different STR Minimums

There is a corresponding cost, but not in CP, in money (both to purchase/rent, and for security/maintainance/overhead) and availability. I'm not saying that a PC has equal access to a peasant's hovel or a mansion at his whim! Ahh, but there are many campaigns which do not use money in more then a abstract cursory fashion. and relying on "they pay for it with money" is rarely a good idea in my experience. In fact that does tend to be the assumption made in most Core material regarding accumulation of non-standard wealth (in most realistic fantasy settings actually owning the land you live on is pretty non-standard), but perhaps that just my own micromanagement


I just can't see any reason for doing this. You can do what you think is appropriate for your games of course, but I generally assume that it shouldn't cost CP just to have a place to sleep, eat, entertain guests, etc. Now if you've got weapons built into your house, or magical/technological devices that add functionality beyond what would be in a normal living space, then yes, that would have to be paid for. Examples include a "troub-alert" computer, crime lab, a palantir, a guard dragon, a moat with dangerous things in it, traps, seige engines, teleportation gate. Yes but it is somewhat difficult to justify fitting supercomputers, "guard dragons" (gods think of the upkeep...) or moat in a house-space the size of a gnats naval. So paying for space is sort of like having a Reserve in a Multipower.


Well if you don't have to pay CP for it, then I have no argument at all. I have no problem with paying for base size by some other means, and would in fact require it in most cases.
I wouldn't call it an argument, I like discussing game mechanics most of the time, even if the person I'm discussing them with has a different perspective then my own.
In any case as I said, I plan on using Resource pools so the point cost is only marginally important for determining relative value on what are essentially temporary holdings.

[PhilFleischmann]

Actually there could very well be a difference if the two weapons were built according to their SFX. The larger gun would likely be a Bulky OIF, while the other a might be an IAF or IIF, Also the two weapons could also have very different STR Minimums
Yes, but they could have been built any number of ways. If they're both built the same way, say OIF, no STR min, paid for with CP, there is no game difference based on the size of the gun.

Ahh, but there are many campaigns which do not use money in more then a abstract cursory fashion.
I'm well aware of that. That's what I do.

and relying on "they pay for it with money" is rarely a good idea in my experience.
If you mean keeping track of exactly how many gold galleons and silver sickles and copper knuts each character has, then I agree with you. But you don't need to do that to know that a character with no Money Perk can't afford a luxurious mansion.

Yes but it is somewhat difficult to justify fitting supercomputers, "guard dragons" (gods think of the upkeep...) or moat in a house-space the size of a gnats naval.
Are those things less useful if kept in a small space than if they are kept in a large space? And by "useful," I mean in terms of the game mechanical benifit provided. A huge, fearsome dragon costs more than a baby dragon because it is more powerful, not because it requires more living space. A science lab that gives a +3 to Science Skill rolls should cost the same regardless of whether it's 10'x10' or 20'x20' or 30'x30' etc. Why? Because it does the same thing not matter how big it is.

So paying for space is sort of like having a Reserve in a Multipower.
No. It's more like paying extra for the privelege of having a Multipower. If you want a Multipower in your base, you pay for the Multipower itself.

I wouldn't call it an argument, I like discussing game mechanics most of the time, even if the person I'm discussing them with has a different perspective then my own.
That isn't what I meant by "argument." Perhaps I should have said, "disagreement." I enjoy it as well. :)

[katal3]

Yes, but they could have been built any number of ways. If they're both built the same way, say OIF, no STR min, paid for with CP, there is no game difference based on the size of the gun. Except of course whatever the GM might choose to apply as house-rules, but effectively if they were built exactly the same, using no limitations to represent realism then yes, there is no factor in determining size. However I don't suggest that particular course of action. Besides, if just looking at the mechanics, your players can't tell see any difference in the builds for a sling and a Arbalest, then the cost of bases is the LEAST of your concerns


I'm well aware of that. That's what I do.


If you mean keeping track of exactly how many gold galleons and silver sickles and copper knuts each character has, then I agree with you. But you don't need to do that to know that a character with no Money Perk can't afford a luxurious mansion.
Although that is a valid point, it isn't what I meant.
No I mean being able to keep a party from power creeping at an inane level when a 5 point perk and a little patience are all that necessary to accumulate an ungodly amount of RP worth of Enchanted Crap Advanced Weapons etc etc etc, unless of course you do one of three things, no magic crap at all, just don't let them buy it (even if they really can afford whatever the previous owner to realistically take for it), or continually find ways to rape the players of money and/or magic crap. None of these options seem particularly nice, fun or likely to keep your players. Unless you have a better solution that it?


Are those things less useful if kept in a small space than if they are kept in a large space? And by "useful," I mean in terms of the game mechanical benifit provided. A huge, fearsome dragon costs more than a baby dragon because it is more powerful, not because it requires more living space. A science lab that gives a +3 to Science Skill rolls should cost the same regardless of whether it's 10'x10' or 20'x20' or 30'x30' etc. Why? Because it does the same thing not matter how big it is.
That’s not what the ladies say... anyway seriously.
I don't think it is unreasonable at all. in the example above you gave dragons, an excellent example, well mechanically speaking.
Isn't the entirely of the difference between the Baby and the adult dragons represent that from a thematic point of view one is older and much bigger. As such one can make a correlation to the dragons mechanical value, and the size of the space it is likely to inhabit. as it's Mechanics represent its size and strength (using the term loosely), which would effect the amount of space it needs to be comfortable, the amount of food it would eat, how much payment for it's services it might or might not charge (either in actually coin or perhaps "donations" (again, using the term loosely) to its hoard. These are all factors that would be of note to somebody choosing a Dragon as a Pet over say, a crap load of Orcish Mercs. but I'm on a tangent.
There is also an aspect of internal consistency that must be addressed. in Disadvantages, Powers, Limitations, anything which effects an Area or the size of that area, is assigned (if only an abstract) mechanical worth.
Example 1: Range, in most cases, unless the power is specifically "limited" range wise (which in and of itself give the range a certain value), it can hit just about anything you can see, so why does increasing that further with an advantage benefit you?
Example 2: Area, The change environment power, which is often used purely for SFX type effects and minor combat effects, must pay for the size of it's area, same for Darkness, Images, and certainly any power bought with the AoE advantage.
Example 3: Hunted; Although a "Hunted"s worth is based primarily on relative power, there is a modifier for range, indicating again, that spatial dimensions do have some worth.
Point: If all these other things have some spatially relatable value, that it would be inconsistent of a Perk (in case a Base) to be exempt from this.
Moving on to the Science Lab. There actually is a very simple advantage to having that same +3 split up over 30x30 rather then 10x10.
Destroyability: for one thing it will take much longer on average to destroy a larger lab, be that more grenades, more time spent on movement to hack at beakers, or more high yield explosives, either way that amount of are will take more resources to bomblast.
Also another advantage to having a larger area, say if your attacked inside said area. you have 1) more room to maneuver, or if your at the top of the tower and they at the bottem, they have to wind themselves jsut getting to you, all the while you might have the opportunity to be blasting them to hell as the run up the spiril staircase.


No. It's more like paying extra for the privelege of having a Multipower. If you want a Multipower in your base, you pay for the Multipower itself. Perhaps, but there is also precedent for that, there are several magic systems for instance that have entry costs such as special talents which do nothing else then to allow you to cast spells of a given type. in fact I know of one system that you Actually had to have a special talent to use spells defined as Multipowers.
Also, that Multipower, no matter it's limitations represent something, in the case of Bases those are objects, enchantments, traps, etc. Well all those things are effected by the spatial dimensions of the base. A trap is hardly effective if space is so cramped that it kills you as well as the invaders, and that ballista takes space to fire from.


That isn't what I meant by "argument." Perhaps I should have said, "disagreement." I enjoy it as well. :)
Indeed!

As a final note I'd like to point out that were the rules charging you for say, the afore mentioned Spiral Staircase which the players will exhaust themselves on, or windows, then I would be 100% behind you, but their not charging you for a Spiral staircase, their charging you for potential. the Ability to put a spiral staircase there, or maybe a barracks for all those Orc Mercs you hired. etc. As such what that rules is charging you for in my opinion is Potential. namely because if you have a larger base you simply have more room to do interesting things while still maintaining functionality which is most definitely an advantage in my mind

[PhilFleischmann]

No I mean being able to keep a party from power creeping at an inane level when a 5 point perk and a little patience are all that necessary to accumulate an ungodly amount of RP worth of Enchanted Crap Advanced Weapons etc etc etc, unless of course you do one of three things, no magic crap at all, just don't let them buy it (even if they really can afford whatever the previous owner to realistically take for it), or continually find ways to rape the players of money and/or magic crap. None of these options seem particularly nice, fun or likely to keep your players. Unless you have a better solution that it?
My better solution: common sense. In a modern setting, no amount of money can buy you a time machine, or a starship, an interdimensional portal, a giant robotic security system, etc., but you can buy a luxurious mansion with paintings in the walls, a spacious bedroom, a lounge, a conservatory, etc. In a fantasy setting, the weathiest king can buy (with money) a huge castle with stone walls, a moat, solars, a nice courtyard with a jousting field, etc., but he can't buy plotdevicium walls, magical giant legs that walk the whole castle somewhere else, a moat of self-sustaining magical fire, etc. You can only buy things that are available.

Isn't the entirely of the difference between the Baby and the adult dragons represent that from a thematic point of view one is older and much bigger....These are all factors that would be of note to somebody choosing a Dragon as a Pet over say, a crap load of Orcish Mercs.
So what? You're already paying more for the bigger dragon because it's more powerful, it's built on more points, it costs more CP to have it in your base. The mere fact that it takes up more room doesn't get you any additional benefit. So why should you have to pay extra? Suppose you hire a platoon of Orcish Mercs. You pay for them as normal (with CP). If you have to pay extra CP for the barracks they sleep in and the mess hall they eat in and the bathrooms they uh, bathe in, why would you even bother? For the same CP, you could get a platoon of golems (built on the same points), which don't eat or sleep so they can all be crammed together in a small closet when you don't need them. What's the difference in game effect that justifies one costing more points than the other? Likewise, you could say that your platoon of orcs all live in the nearby village so you don't have to house them. The specified number that you paid for are always on patrol at any given time, but there are more of them that swap in and out as they change shifts. Same game effect - lower point cost.

There is also an aspect of internal consistency that must be addressed. in Disadvantages, Powers, Limitations, anything which effects an Area or the size of that area, is assigned (if only an abstract) mechanical worth.
Example 1: Range, ...
Example 2: Area, ....
Example 3: Hunted; ...
That's a completely different matter. In each of those cases, you're actually doing something - having a game effect - in the specified area. Empty floor space doesn't do anything. If you want an AE weapon in your base, you pay for its area of effect because you're actually doing something.

Moving on to the Science Lab. There actually is a very simple advantage to having that same +3 split up over 30x30 rather then 10x10.
And there are equal and opposite disadvantages to having a larger area as well. An enemy (not just you) has more room to maneuver, more places to hide. Destroying a science lab isn't so much a matter of damaging floor space as it is equipment. That +3 is the same amount of resource regardless of how thinly spead it is. A larger space that is damaged will take more to repair also. etc.

Perhaps, but there is also precedent for that, there are several magic systems for instance that have entry costs such as special talents which do nothing else then to allow you to cast spells of a given type.
I can't speak for any magic system without knowing the larger context of the campaign rules that it is used in. With the standard HERO rules, you should never have to pay points just for the privilege of paying more points. Each power or ability should only be purchased once. Yes, there can be certain campaign considerations that modify this general principle.

Also, that Multipower, no matter it's limitations represent something, in the case of Bases those are objects, enchantments, traps, etc. Well all those things are effected by the spatial dimensions of the base.
What do you mean? It's point cost is determined by how you bought it. And how you bought it determines what it does. The space it resides in is nothing more than thematics, which you should never have to pay for.

As a final note I'd like to point out that were the rules charging you for say, the afore mentioned Spiral Staircase which the players will exhaust themselves on, or windows, then I would be 100% behind you, but their not charging you for a Spiral staircase, their charging you for potential.
But they *do* charge you for the spiral staircase. They charge for every bit of area inside the base, whether or not it has a game benefit: hallways, bathrooms, bedrooms, meeting rooms, foyers, staircases, closets. Charging for "potential" is a very bad idea, IMO, and runs counter to everything else in HERO. You don't charge for potential, you charge for actual.

[katal3]

Alright, lets try a different tact, as this discussion has already degenerated into a round robin, neither of us is really making new points. And I’m pretty sure we’ve thoroughly jacked this thread anyway. So anyway, I’ll try to keep this brief>>>

To summarize, you don’t think characters should pay for Base Area (or that such a cost should be included in the calculations at all) because it has no direct mechanical benefit. Space is nothing more then an SFX, and as such should have absolutely no bearing on any mechanical build.

I disagree on the grounds that sufficient area is a necessity for the direct mechanical benefit, thus making it an indirect mechanical benefit. That aside, having a larger base can provide other indirect benefits which may or may not be convertible to a power construct.
In my mind this makes it partially comparable to say, Skill levels for a “Magic” skill to use your spells. The skill levels themselves are doing almost nothing; they certainly aren’t crisping your enemy. But without them you wouldn’t be able to use the powers which <i>do</I> crisp then enemy. In fact the skill itself has <I>No Direct Mechanical Benefit</I> as it is a byproduct of the RSR Limitation on another existing power construct.
An example of what I mean by a indirect benefit are pitfalls, since all they are is (literally) a tube of empty space with a sharp stop at the end, the only part of your average pitfall trap that might need a power construct is the “door” or whatever conceals the trap. (Images, only to disguise a trap) and even then a player could probably just get away with a sufficient Concealment roll during the planning stages of construction, and maybe some more complementary ones from the builders during construction.
The builder has gained a solid mechanical advantage by exploiting that short of a flight or gliding power, things usually go “ker-splat!” when they suddenly fall down long tubes with reinforced floors at the bottom. And the only thing he may have paid points for was the trick floor, which may have been as small an investment as a single roll of a 3-pt skill.

And darn, I didn’t keep it brief. Anyway that’s what I mean by buying potential, I agree that potential is only worth as much as what it’s used for, but space can be used for things that provide mechanical benefits to the character, but do not otherwise cost a dime

[Rapier]

There is something else I think we are neglecting.

If six adventurers get together on a Wednesday evening and we assume some kind of newness/low level/beginning adventurer, they aren't going to be purchasing a castle on Friday afternoon. They shouldn't be. That just, for the most part, sounds silly.

After a few game months, they can probably swing some kind of starter-base in an old inn or something. After a few game years and some sweet loot on big bad guys, I can see the adventurers upgrading to a larger base, a keep or possibly a castle.

After all, if you are set up with all the cash you need and a nice sweet base why wouldn't you retire? Retired characters don't make for a real good game!

[Mithras]

After all, if you are set up with all the cash you need and a nice sweet base why wouldn't you retire? Retired characters don't make for a real good game!

Well, the players may have goal in life and such things that makes them continue to adventure/destroy evil even if the get filthy rich..:)

However, my players feels they need a base of operation and i as a GM should not deny it..:)
Furthermore it seems to further develope the plots i can make for them..:)

I have gotten the most to create bases without points now, and i thank you all who have contributed to this thread (yep, even the highjackers)..:D

[PhilFleischmann]

I'll also try to keep this brief (and will probably fail), and yes, we have hijacked this thread.
IIn my mind this makes it partially comparable to say, Skill levels for a “Magic” skill to use your spells.
I don't find that comparable at all. The Magic Skill *is* giving you a mechanical benefit, and so are the Skill Levels for it, since they make it easier to succeed on the roll. Whether it let's you use spells that have RSR or perform power stunts, you are getting a game-mechanical benefit.

An example of what I mean by a indirect benefit are pitfalls, since all they are is (literally) a tube of empty space with a sharp stop at the end, the only part of your average pitfall trap that might need a power construct is the “door” or whatever conceals the trap.
However you build it (or any other kind of trap), you pay for the trap itself, not for the space it takes up. What is the game-mechanical difference between a pit trap that causes people who fail to notice the trap to take, say 3d6 K in falling damage (sharp spikes at the bottom), and an arrow trap that does 3d6 K to those who fail to notice the trap? If one costs more in character points simply because it takes up more area, then one SFX is penalized over another.

After all, if you are set up with all the cash you need and a nice sweet base why wouldn't you retire? Retired characters don't make for a real good game!
This is also a good point. A rich person who lives in a castle probably isn't going to go "adventuring." However, if the PCs get to that point, the campaign can take a new tone. They are no longer adventurers, but leaders. They'll have to deal with new kinds of adventures and conflicts: politics, war, peasant uprisings, intrigue, etc. There can be plenty of interesting new challenges to face for former adventurers who establish a castle stronghold.

[katal3]

Eh, we could continue this argument til the world fell down around us and neither of us is likely to change our mind before then, so lets just agree to disagree on this one.

[PhilFleischmann]

No problem. I'm not really trying to convince you. I prefer clarity to agreement.

[Eosin]

This is also a good point. A rich person who lives in a castle probably isn't going to go "adventuring." However, if the PCs get to that point, the campaign can take a new tone. They are no longer adventurers, but leaders. They'll have to deal with new kinds of adventures and conflicts: politics, war, peasant uprisings, intrigue, etc. There can be plenty of interesting new challenges to face for former adventurers who establish a castle stronghold.


Adventuring starts with owning land and defending your tenants. Go Birthright. :celebrate