GoO Gone?

[Tclynch]

It certanly LOOKS that way. I mention it here because of Silver Age Sentinals. Snagged a few of the suppliments I missed on Ebay recently. :)

[Edsel]

The last I heard from them was back in March. I have one of the limited edition copies of AGoT. Since that was delayed they were offering a free GM Screen and bonus adventure to those who had bought one. They only asked that you email them that you were still interested in receiving the bonus materials. I emailed them on 3/22/06 confirming that I was still interested. I have heard nothing since.

[Eosin]

In nursing lingo - DRT

:thumbup:

[Susano]

In nursing lingo - DRT

DRT? As in Dirt? As in GoO is taking a Dirt Nap?

[Super Squirrel]

Despite the fact it seems there are a lot of complaints about not recieiving shipments for six months, there is not a single complaint against them on the BBB.

http://www.bbbmwo.ca/commonreport.html?bid=1148523

[Edsel]

DRT = Dead Right There. As in the patient was dead at the scene. Even deader than Dead On Arrival.

[Susano]

DRT = Dead Right There. As in the patient was dead at the scene. Even deader than Dead On Arrival.

Ah, so DRT does mean taking a dirt nap!

[Thia Halmades]

It's worse than that! He's dead, Jim! (Dead Jim Dead Jim!) It's worse than that! He's dead, Jim! (Dead Jim Dead!)

[ChaosDrgn]

It's worse than that! He's dead, Jim! (Dead Jim Dead Jim!) It's worse than that! He's dead, Jim! (Dead Jim Dead!)

Klingon's on the starboard bow, scrape them off Jim!

[Lord Liaden]

Despite the fact it seems there are a lot of complaints about not recieiving shipments for six months, there is not a single complaint against them on the BBB.

http://www.bbbmwo.ca/commonreport.html?bid=1148523

I wouldn't be surprised if that changes in the near future, given the number and variety of complaints, concerns and castigations against GoO, including by various gaming professionals who have worked with them. Take a look at this substantial thread from RPGnet: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=269843 . It has as much current information on the situation as anyone has besides Mark McKinnon.

Even if Mark can salvage GoO in the short term, I fear that the damage to the company's reputation to this point may be irreparable. :(

[OddHat]

Even if Mark can salvage GoO in the short term, I fear that the damage to the company's reputation to this point may be irreparable. :(

That's a shame. They put out some worthwhile stuff.

[Michael Hopcroft]

To get vaguely on-topic, I was wondering if anyone had BESM-to-HERO conevrsion notes? I know that there are SAS-to-HERO notes iN Reality Storm, and IIRC there are BESM-to-SAS cobversion notes in SAS Tri-Stat.

[yamamura]

Susano does on his site Michael.

[Susano]

Susano does on his site Michael.

For... uhm... 2nd Edition I think.

It works okay, but it does give one rough numbers to play with.

[Thia Halmades]

Oddly, I've never even bought or had exposure to GoO products. More's the pity, since many people have said it has a great deal of flex and a definite ease of use in comparison to Hero (although Thia likes his crunchies, if you're gonna do points, do the original). At the same time, I've heard various people mention the difficulties of sustaining a game company in this general down-turn of the industry, so I can't blame them for that.

Still, not really interested in owning their games (although if they did FMA, I'd be hard-pressed to not own it).

[copeab]

Oddly, I've never even bought or had exposure to GoO products. More's the pity, since many people have said it has a great deal of flex and a definite ease of use in comparison to Hero (although Thia likes his crunchies, if you're gonna do points, do the original).

I own BESM 2e and have played and GMed one adventure each with it. The only thing I find annoying about it is that bonuses are negative and penalties are positive (BattleTech/Mechwarrior is the only other RPG I have with sucha "backward" arrangement). Otherwise, though, I like the game quite a bit.

[input.jack]

A couple of my friends are BESM fiends. Weve run several varied campaigns on the system. I ran a Fantasy game on it that lasted quite a while, and we have played several Science Fiction games using the system that ran for about a year each. Ian's "Star Trek TOS" game was -awesome-, and had a great feel to it. Dane set up his own Science Fiction game that was part Bab 5 and part Star Blazers. And got it to WORK! I did a -ton- of Star Wars write-ups for it, too, and ran a game set 50 years after the destruction of the 2nd Death Star.

I found 1st Edition unplayable, but 2nd Edition works just fine if everyone is on board with it. One of our players really doesnt like how "loose" the system is,. and it -is- easy to abuse if you know how. But if the GM keeps a tight rein on the Players during character creation, and you dont try to mix Magic and Dynamic Sorcery, youre golden.

I was really -really- looking forward to 3rd Edition BESM, but now it looks like Ill never see it. Which is depressing because it may have been able to seal the rift between the Players in our group who adore BESM, and the few who dont like it at all.

Much as I love HERO (and I do), sometimes I jsut want to run something fast and easy, and BESM was it for a while. Now Im trying Mutants and masterminds for my Supers game, although we have alot of other games in HERO (so Im still One Of Us) ;)

[ChaosDrgn]

Personally I was looking for an updated Amber from them. Hopefully one that kept the original rules/ideas intact though.

[McManus]

This thread uses more initials than many others. It needs a glossary for those of us no tin the know.


AGoT =
BBB = Better Business Bureau
BESM
DRT = Dead Right There
FMA =
GM = Game Master
GoO =
RPG = Role Playing Game
SAS = Silver Age Sentinels
TOS = The Original Show

What are the others?

[Derek Hiemforth]

AGoT = A Game of Thrones
BBB = Better Business Bureau
BESM = Big Eyes, Small Mouth (GoO's anime RPG)
DRT = Dead Right There
FMA =
GM = Game Master
GoO = Guardians of Order (the game company we're discussing; publishers of SAS and BESM)
RPG = Role Playing Game
SAS = Silver Age Sentinels
TOS = The Original Show

What are the others?The ones I know updated above. :)

[Michael Hopcroft]

FMA = Full Metal Alchemist, a very popular techno-fantasy anime series that has been much speculated upon as an RPG license.

Although, to be honest, it would surprise me if any major anime series got licnese3d to the RPG market in the next few years regardless of GoO's status. The distributos distinctly prefer the TGC market, which is much easier and gives them more control over the product, and the video agme market where all the usually have to do is translate an existing Japanese game into English. (several such titles were reeleased last year, but only the FMA game has been very successful here so far.)

[Jomster]

There's lots of discussion on this over on the forums at http://www.rpg.net... not looking too good unfortunately... :(

[Funksaw]

This is too bad - Tri-Stat DX is my favorite system; HERO is my second.

[Michael Hopcroft]

One BESM alternative that I actually have a copy of, and that is actually an appealing little game, is OVA, which uses a traits system and no set stats at all. I keep hoping to run it as a convention game, but not having gone to a convention all year does sort of prevent that.

[That Masked Man]

This is too bad - Tri-Stat DX is my favorite system; HERO is my second.

I still prefer HERO, but GoO published my next two favorites - BESM and Amber.

[ChaosDrgn]

I still prefer HERO, but GoO published my next two favorites - BESM and Amber.

well.....to be fair Phage Press published Amber. GoO brought the rights but hasn't done anything with it yet.

[That Masked Man]

well.....to be fair Phage Press published Amber. GoO brought the rights but hasn't done anything with it yet.

I thought they had reprinted the books. Mine are Phage Press however, so I don't know if they ever reprinted them with the GoO name.

[ChaosDrgn]

I thought they had reprinted the books. Mine are Phage Press however, so I don't know if they ever reprinted them with the GoO name.

AFAIK they burned through Phage's left over books with the idea of doing a 2nd edition type deal, either with the old rules or a new rules set. If they reprinted the orignal book I honestly don't know about it. I think GoO may have released the originals as PDFs @ Drivethru.

[Tclynch]

Looks like the entire site is down and gone....:(

[Lord Liaden]

It's not the first time that has happened - in fact it seems to disappear briefly about once a month. :rolleyes:

So it may return. I only hope that when it does, it will be with a message from Mark letting us know where things stand.

[Lord Liaden]

And speak of the devil, the GoO website is back again.

Still, it might not be a bad idea to download all the freebies and other stuff you might be interested in while you have the chance, just in case.

[keithcurtis]

I'd be very interested to hear anything from Mark McKinnon. He seems to have gone dark.

Keith "." Curtis

[Edsel]

I'd be very interested to hear anything from Mark McKinnon. He seems to have gone dark.That's because, by the sound of the disgruntled people owed money and product, he has picked up a slew of new hunted.

[Lord Liaden]

Also, as several people on that RPGnet thread have pointed out, Mark may have gone silent to both fans and clients on the advice of his lawyer. Apparently that's a common tactic while a company sorts out serious financial legalities.

[Hierax]

FYI:

New news from George Martin's website:
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/news.html
GUARDIANS OF ORDER OUT OF BUSINESS

July 28, 2006

I regret to announce that Guardians of Order, the Canadian games company that issued the GAME OF THRONES role-playing game last fall, is closing its doors and going out of business.

Although the GoO website remains open and there is some fan activity on the message boards there, it would appear that orders are no longer being fulfilled and emails to Guardians itself are going unaswered. The company's office has been vacated, and the company phone has been disconnected, When I finally reached GoO's owner and president Mark MacKinnon last week, he confirmed what many had come to suspect -- that he is shutting down operations. MacKinnon is presently attempting to place some of GoO's games with other companies.

I am not privy to all of the details of how and why Guardians is going under, but I do know the company's finances were very badly affected by the decline in the value of the American dollar against the Canadian dollar. Most of GoO's sales were in the United States, so a weaker dollar meant less money coming in. The massive and gorgeous GAME OF THRONES role-playing book, four years in the making, was finally released last November (for details, see the news stories in my archives) and appears to have sold quite well, but its success proved too little and too late to save Guardians of Order.

I am presently attempting to work out some sort of settlement with Guardians that would allow the RPG to continue with another company, but at this writing the future of the game (if any) remains unresolved.

Ironically, this announcement comes just as the GAME OF THRONES RPG has been nominated for four "ENie" awards as one of the best games of 2005. The game has been nominated in the categories of Best Production Values, Best d20/ OGL Product, Best Product, and Best Game.

[Super Squirrel]

Too bad mark is too wimpy to make an announcement himself.

[keithcurtis]

Thanks Hierax.

That's cold comfort.

Keith "sigh..." Curtis

[Funksaw]

I just hope Tri-stat finds a new home; there are a number of outstanding Magnum Opus products that could use it.

[Egyptoid]

Hero slays another impostor !

[Susano]

My gods, I have no idea where to begin.

Yes ... effective more-or-less immediately, Guardians Of Order has ceased operations.

First, an apology. I am terribly sorry that George Martin broke the news about our situation. That is certainly not how I wanted the information to be released, and I had thought that my frank conversation with him about A Game of Thrones-specific issues was in confidence. This is the second time now that someone other than me releases very important news about Guardians Of Order, which leaves me frantically trying to patch the holes. The polite and proper thing for me -- as President of the company -- to do would be to contact all of our creditors (which includes some great freelancers and industry associates) FIRST and explain the situation to them. I was working on that process when my efforts were derailed by one simple website post. So I am very sorry that someone else took it upon himself to release this information. It's not how I was proceeding to handle things.

But yes, the end result is the same. GoO is no longer.

This was a very sad decision that I had to make, but it wasn't really a difficult one when I took a long, hard look at the facts. The company simply accumulated too much debt, with little hope of paying it off within the next decade, and my recent plans to get the company back in shape didn't materialise. When I kept my emotions in check and simply analysed the facts of the company's financial forecast, the only course of action was very clear. There were a combination of factors that contributed to the ultimate inability of the company to maintain fiscal health (which I have outlined several times in other posts over the years) -- the extreme softening of the RPG sales market, the drastic shift in USD/CDN exchange rates, etc -- but external circumstances are not entirely to blame. Simply put, I did not have the business acumen to run the company profitably when the going got tough. I'm going to steal a John Nephew analogy for a brief explanation.

I've been driving down the gaming industry highway in my GoOmobile since 1997, with a coffee in the cup holder and a muffin on the passenger's seat. For many years of driving, the highway was a straight path with very little traffic on it. Consequently, if I swerved a little as I ate my breakfast while driving, it wasn't a big deal ... the situations on the road were very forgiving and it was easy to keep on driving. Unfortunately, when the road started getting very crowded around 2003 and started making many twists and turns, I didn't have the foresight to put down the coffee and muffin, place both hands firmly on the wheel, and pay very close attention to the road. I just kept on driving like before, assuming everything was the same. Ultimately, the GoOmobile swerved into the path of an incredibly powerful semi-truck called "Exchange Rate Fluxuation," causing a terrible wreck and writing off the vehicle.

I'm not making light of the situation, but I thought that John's analogy was a perfect fit. Running the company when things were peachy was easy, but I faltered when the going got tough. For my lack of knowledge and experience, I sincerely apologise to our many thousands of consumers and fans, our creditors and freelancers, and to my many friends who put their faith in my dream. I failed, and I'm sorry I couldn't do better.

So where does that leave things now? I don't have all the answers yet -- I was trying to line them up before making this announcement -- but here's what I can say at this time:

* BESM Third Edition is finished and ready for press. Another company will be publishing it and providing future support. It's the most elegant version of BESM and the Tri-Stat System that I have put together and am very proud of it. If you pre-ordered the book from us, more information will follow.

* Advanced d20 Magic is back from press and will be hitting stores in August. Customers who pre-ordered directly from us will be receiving their orders.

* We are still attempting to place the A Game of Thrones RPG with another company. Of course, this requires GRRM's approval and we are still working out details. AGOT is a fantastic game, and we will do our best to see it continued.

* All outstanding orders will be fulfilled. If we are unable to ship you the order for some reason, you will have the option of having a refund sent to you. We are no longer taking any orders directly from our web store.

* Our products will remain for sale as both print books and PDFs as long as the stores will carry them. We are arranging for our products to be transferred to another company. I have no information regarding their future publication.

* Our Tri-Stat/brand licenses remain in effect for as long as indicated in the contracts, and licensees may still publish products under the terms of such licenses. Obviously, the Magnum Opus imprint will cease to operate.

* Our creditors (which includes freelancers and friendly investors) will be contacted directly in the coming weeks. There is still much to do on this end, and I ask for your patience while we get things in order and communicate with you.

Some people have inquired about my personal future, so I'll be brief. I am leaving the gaming industry. I need to concentrate on recovering financially from the collapse of the company and on rebuilding the strength of my family, which unfortunately suffered over the past couple of years. I am now working as a real estate sales representative in Guelph, and find the work a refreshing change of pace. My health is great, my family is very understanding, and I look forward to what the future will hold.

There are so many people to whom I am grateful for all their help, advice, and support over our 9-year run. Please forgive me if I forget anyone:

* my wonderful wife, Karen, for ... well ... everything
* my parents for always giving me their best wishes and telling me how proud they are of my accomplishments
* Adam Jury, who stuck with the company and with me until the end
* Jesse Scoble, for sharing so very many awesome experiences under the guise of "work"
* Jeff Mackintosh, for accepting that job offer initiated in the Columbus bar
* David Pulver, for putting BESM 2e on the map
* Ryan Dancey, for always being just a phone call away; sweet, dude
* John Zinser, for showing and mentoring me in the Hard Way
* Cindy Rice, for befriending this little guy in New York many years ago
* John and Michelle Nephew, for keen insight, support, and friendship
* Alex Fennel, for working with this fellow foreigner for several years
* Joe Saul, for always shooting straight and giving me the US perspective
* Erick Wujcik, for giving me the opportunity to carry the torch, even if I couldn't follow through
* Derek, who offered to help an old friend in need
* Andy, Todd, Jules, Lindsey, Ken, John, and Lowell for lending a helping hand
* Steve, for helping make deals happen
* The Hero Games crew, for making advertising a lot of fun
* Marcelo Figueroa, for his eternal offers of assistance
and of course
* our customers, fans, and supporters -- without whom running Guardians Of Order would have been impossible. You have my sincerest gratitude.

Hello and goodbye, as always.

Mark C. MacKinnon
President, Guardians Of Order, Inc.
Guelph, Ontario
July 31st, 2006

[Lord Liaden]

I think it's worth mentioning that Guardians of Order still has a ton of free downloads from their various products on this section of their website (http://www.guardiansorder.com/downloads/). If you've ever thought about sampling any of their books before purchasing, it might be prudent to do so soon, while the website is still up. :(

[Tclynch]

Looks like he finally took the forums down. I do hope this mystery company that is going to publish BESM 3rd makes an announcement soon....

[Puroresu]

This really stinks if you ask me. I'm real sad to see Guardians of Order bite the dust, especially the Silver Age Sentinels line. I wonder if Hero Games will be able to pick it up. Having it as an alternate universe to the Champions Universe would be cool.

Hope Hero Games is in good shape financially. I really enjoy the Champions products. I LOVE the VIPER: Coils of the Serpent book! I can't wait for the new updated version of Champions of the North in regards to Canadian superheroes and supervillains.

[Darren Watts]

You know, if everybody who's suggested in the last few days that Hero should buy and republish SAS had bought the Hero/SAS crossover book Reality Storm... well, a lot more people would have bought Reality Storm than actually did. That book was our single worst-selling title *ever*, and that was before GoO had any problems. Are you guys seriously suggesting there's more demand for it now, or are you all Green Ronin spies trying to eliminate us as competition too? :confused: dw

[Teflon Billy]

You know, if everybody who's suggested in the last few days that Hero should buy and republish SAS had bought the Hero/SAS crossover book Reality Storm... well, a lot more people would have bought Reality Storm than actually did. That book was our single worst-selling title *ever*, and that was before GoO had any problems. Are you guys seriously suggesting there's more demand for it now, or are you all Green Ronin spies trying to eliminate us as competition too? :confused: dwWell, I certainly am not a spy.

I will say that I like the SAS characters better than the Champions universe (with a few notable exceptions.)

Personal preference I guess, but I find the SAS world and characters feel more Comic Book-y to me where the Champions come off more like NPCs.

I'd love it if you guys could swing acquiring the rights to the characters and world. But I completely understand if as a company (and not knowing how much it'd actually cost to buy the rights to something) you guys don't feel it would be worth the investment and your capital is better used somewhere else.

I'll continue my "One of Everything, Please" policy either way, so you will get my purchases regardless.

I do think that the long delays cooled some of the enthusiasm for Reality Storm, that might be part of the reason for the lackluster sales. I don't know, I bought my copy so it wasn't my fault. ;)

TB

[Derek Hiemforth]

You know, if everybody who's suggested in the last few days that Hero should buy and republish SAS had bought the Hero/SAS crossover book Reality Storm... well, a lot more people would have bought Reality Storm than actually did. That book was our single worst-selling title *ever*, and that was before GoO had any problems. Are you guys seriously suggesting there's more demand for it now, or are you all Green Ronin spies trying to eliminate us as competition too? :confused: dwI'm sure you don't need me to tell you this, Darren... but I'd definitely encourage you not try to get the rights to publish SAS, etc., even if you were considering it.

Why?

For the same reason that I scratch my head every time some peabrain opens a pizza parlor in the same location where a previous pizza parlor failed. Or opens a hair salon in the same location where a another hair salon just failed. It makes no sense to me why anyone would risk their fortune on a business trying to fill the exact same niche as another business that just failed. But you see it happen all the time.

Sure, it may very well be that GoO went under in spite of SAS, not because of it. Heck, that's very much likely the case. But still... why take chances?

All we know for certain is that the company publishing SAS is now gone, and the company publishing Champions is still around. Why on earth should the company publishing Champions tempt fate by taking on SAS? If doing so presented any kind of financial gamble at all to DoJ, and that gamble failed to pay off, SAS could turn out to be the stone that sunk the ship. That's definitely the last thing we'd want. :)

[Nolgroth]

Heck, I'm sorry to see any gaming company do the belly up dance, but I'm personally not interested in SAS in any way. I'm not even interested in Champions for that matter, but I'm not a comic book dude.

So these Green Ronin guys got a beef with HERO Games? Be an awful shame if Green Ronin were to catch fire, wouldn't it Colonel?*




*The above is in no way a serious threat against Green Ronin. Since I have never even heard of them before now, I doubt that they have the clout to pose a real threat to HERO anyway. Gotta be careful to have your disclaimers ready these days.

[Teflon Billy]

Heck, I'm sorry to see any gaming company do the belly up dance, but I'm personally not interested in SAS in any way. I'm not even interested in Champions for that matter, but I'm not a comic book dude.

So these Green Ronin guys got a beef with HERO Games? Be an awful shame if Green Ronin were to catch fire, wouldn't it Colonel?*

*The above is in no way a serious threat against Green Ronin. Since I have never even heard of them before now, I doubt that they have the clout to pose a real threat to HERO anyway. Gotta be careful to have your disclaimers ready these days.Well suppose some of their books was to get broken and writers started getting lost, er, fights started breaking out during planning meetings, like.

Be quite a shame it would be.

TB Vercotti

[Allensh]

You know, if everybody who's suggested in the last few days that Hero should buy and republish SAS had bought the Hero/SAS crossover book Reality Storm... well, a lot more people would have bought Reality Storm than actually did. That book was our single worst-selling title *ever*, and that was before GoO had any problems. Are you guys seriously suggesting there's more demand for it now, or are you all Green Ronin spies trying to eliminate us as competition too? :confused: dw

I bought Reality Storm. Twice, in fact.

It would only make sense for Hero to buy the SAS IP IF and only IF they were going to do a version of the setting for the Hero System, and that would probably not be the best idea anyway. Empire City was a neat setting but Hero already has their own setting.

As for Green Ronin...I had migrated to M&M 2nd edition due to its simplicity. But if I could actually FIND a Hero System 5th edition rulebook, I would very likely run Champions as well right now. The local game store...well it isn't really a game store. I will get it eventually.

Allen

[Teflon Billy]

I bought Reality Storm. Twice, in fact.

It would only make sense for Hero to buy the SAS IP IF and only IF they were going to do a version of the setting for the Hero System, and that would probably not be the best idea anyway. Empire City was a neat setting but Hero already has their own setting.

As for Green Ronin...I had migrated to M&M 2nd edition due to its simplicity. But if I could actually FIND a Hero System 5th edition rulebook, I would very likely run Champions as well right now. The local game store...well it isn't really a game store. I will get it eventually.

AllenYou can order a 5ER direct from Hero's Online Store if your local store isn't having any luck getting it. It is instock right now.

TB

[Hugh Neilson]

You know, if everybody who's suggested in the last few days that Hero should buy and republish SAS had bought the Hero/SAS crossover book Reality Storm... well, a lot more people would have bought Reality Storm than actually did. That book was our single worst-selling title *ever*, and that was before GoO had any problems. Are you guys seriously suggesting there's more demand for it now, or are you all Green Ronin spies trying to eliminate us as competition too? :confused: dw

I think Reality Storm suffered from an issue Hero has identified since - scenario boooks in general are not great sellers. To me, this is because a given group might consist of, say, six people, three of whom also GM.

A rules book (eg. 5er; Ultimate series), whether basic or optional, has some appeal to most or all members of the group. They all use the rules.

A genre book (eg. Star Hero; USPD Database) has some appeal to most or all members of the group, provided the group as a whole has an interest in playing in that genre. Not all groups do, so the genre book has less appeal than the rules book.

A setting book (eg. Turakian Age), assuming it includes both player and GM info, has some appeal to most or all members of the group provided the group has an interest in playing that genre in that setting. Thus, the setting book has less appeal than the genre book.

A scenario book (eg. Battlegrounds, Reality Storm) has appeal to only those members of the group who might GM that genre. Further, the GM's likely wish to run scenarios that the other players have not read through, so many groups will have some protocol in place to determine who will run a given scenario, and the other GM/Players won't buy it. Thus, the scenario book has the most limited audience.

Unfortunate, as I'd love to see more Hero scenario books, but that's the way it is.

As I don't think Hero has any interest in having an alternate rules system, they would be acquiring the properties for setting and scenario books only, the products with the lowest appeal. As such, I can't see such an acquisition being in Hero's best interests. I don't see the SAS line having enough name recognition to make it worthwhile.

Buying something with name recognition (say Marvel or DC characters) might have some appeal, since these have name recognition. However, that recognition means higher value and more competition. As well, DC and Marvel aren't bankrupt, so you'd get a licensing deal, which constrains creative freedom and carries a big risk if the license is not renewed. (ask Decipher about Star Wars). Hero's noted several times they're not pursuing such licensing arrangements, with good reason.

As to the Reality Storm sales, it's only a handful of web posters who are suggesting an SAS purchase. If every licensed poster bought a copy of Reality Storm, how much would that boost sales? [Did it really sell under a hundred copies? Sounds like a potential collector's item...maybe I should buy another copy ;) BTW, contrary to my comments above, two Champions GM's in my group bought a copy - and bought copies of all the Hero Champions scenarios, IIRC]

[Allensh]

Well suppose some of their books was to get broken and writers started getting lost, er, fights started breaking out during planning meetings, like.

Be quite a shame it would be.

TB Vercotti

"I can guarantee you that not one character writeup will get done over for 15 bob a week"

Allen

[Derek Hiemforth]

You can order a 5ER direct from Hero's Online Store if your local store isn't having any luck getting it. It is instock right now.And shipping is free! :)

[Funksaw]

You know, if everybody who's suggested in the last few days that Hero should buy and republish SAS had bought the Hero/SAS crossover book Reality Storm... well, a lot more people would have bought Reality Storm than actually did. That book was our single worst-selling title *ever*, and that was before GoO had any problems. Are you guys seriously suggesting there's more demand for it now, or are you all Green Ronin spies trying to eliminate us as competition too? :confused: dw

Well, I'm sorry, Darren, but while SAS and HERO are two great systems, SAS's setting and HERO's settings are pretty much redundant. Sure, we here on the boards may talk about Dr. Destroyer and Foxbat with a knowing eye - but I'll bet you most players are playing Champions without using the Champions setting, preferring either Marvel or DC.

If it was a Reality Storm between Mage Ascension and Shadowrun, perhaps... games more known for their settings then their rule systems, you might have had a bigger seller.

But for the most part, HERO and SAS gamers don't particularly use the other system and really aren't interested in the other system's setting. While HERO and SAS share many similarities in game design, one is rules-heavy, the other rules-light(er).

And finally, SAS simply didn't build up the fan base in 12 months that HERO has over 25 years. Reality Storm was also a game without significant Crunchy Bits (except for the conversion) to appeal to the HERO base, which was much larger than the SAS base.

So - yeah, SAS is dead in the water. But the -system- is a great one and I think it deserves to be developed further. I honestly think there is a market for a rules-light generic ruleset that packs 95% of the whallop of HERO. Having DOJ/HERO produce that ruleset and tweaking it so that it is similar to HERO (renaming powers so that they're the same as the HERO terminology) could finally provide that elusive "lite" version of HERO that was tried with Fuzion - and make it work.

But purely from a business standpoint, I can't see it making any sense.

Honestly, I want the thing to go into open-source or public domain, I think -I- could actually do a good job with it. It sorely does need updating...

(And as for my own personal excuse: I didn't like SAS's setting but I got into SAS before I got into HERO - so Reality Storm wasn't a big seller for me. Sad but true.)

[Funksaw]

Well, I certainly am not a spy.

I will say that I like the SAS characters better than the Champions universe (with a few notable exceptions.)

Personal preference I guess, but I find the SAS world and characters feel more Comic Book-y to me where the Champions come off more like NPCs.



Weirdly enough I always get the impression that Champions was a rip-off of early Marvel (Primus/Shield, Champions/Avengers, Dr. Destroyer/Dr. Doom) and that SAS tended to rip off DC a bit more (with the exception of Kruezritter, who was also a Dr. Doom clone.)

[Teflon Billy]

Weirdly enough I always get the impression that Champions was a rip-off of early Marvel (Primus/Shield, Champions/Avengers, Dr. Destroyer/Dr. Doom) and that SAS tended to rip off DC a bit more (with the exception of Kruezritter, who was also a Dr. Doom clone.)I wasn't talking about whether the characters were homages. I just think the SAS characters were more "complete", I just get the feeling when reading my SAS d20 book that the characters could stand on their own as comic book characters. Where as when I read Champions stuff, I see game NPCs.

I like Omlevex Universe characters for the same reason.

Now, I don't want to overplay these perceptions. I think either World works just fine and there are some excellent characters in both universes. I think the villains in Champions are excellent, particularly Menton, Dr. Destroyer, and Mechanon. But when it comes to Heroes, I like the SAS NPCs more.

This might change quite a bit, once the heroes of the Champions Universe are greatly expanded by the Champions Universe Update with added higher point super groups and added experience to the Champions themselves.

TB

[Lord Liaden]

So these Green Ronin guys got a beef with HERO Games? Be an awful shame if Green Ronin were to catch fire, wouldn't it Colonel?*




*The above is in no way a serious threat against Green Ronin. Since I have never even heard of them before now, I doubt that they have the clout to pose a real threat to HERO anyway. Gotta be careful to have your disclaimers ready these days.

Green Ronin Publishing (http://www.greenronin.com/) appears to be one of the most successful of the "smaller" publishers, probably due in no small part to their well-designed variations on d20 through the Open Gaming License, including their very successful Mutants and Masterminds superhero game line. There's anecdotal evidence that M&M may be outselling Champions, although of course I haven't seen any company figures.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Green Ronin Publishing (http://www.greenronin.com/) appears to be one of the most successful of the "smaller" publishers, probably due in no small part to their well-designed variations on d20 through the Open Gaming License, including their very successful Mutants and Masterminds superhero game line. There's anecdotal evidence that M&M may be outselling Champions, although of course I haven't seen any company figures.
There are two other reasons for M&M's popularity:

1. They have a knack for producing extremely colorful slicks books wtih a great "Ooooh, shiny" factor.

2. The Superlink license, which acquires only prior approval rather than a fee, gives them the best of both worlds -- lots of people producing supplemntary material for their game, and they have some control over what goes forth into the ether.

[Allensh]

"Well, I'm sorry, Darren, but while SAS and HERO are two great systems, SAS's setting and HERO's settings are pretty much redundant. Sure, we here on the boards may talk about Dr. Destroyer and Foxbat with a knowing eye - but I'll bet you most players are playing Champions without using the Champions setting, preferring either Marvel or DC."

That has not been my experience during my 20-some years of playing and running Champions. The only time I ever saw DC or Marvel write-ups used in a game were at conventions - except for one time when I played The Human Bomb in an adventure. Many more people seemed to like taking their original heroes and taking down Doctor Destroyer.

"But for the most part, HERO and SAS gamers don't particularly use the other system and really aren't interested in the other system's setting. While HERO and SAS share many similarities in game design, one is rules-heavy, the other rules-light(er)."

I cheerfully use stuff from every superhero RPG I own in my game, and in my setting, Millenium City, Empire City, Freedom City and San Angelo all exist. The stuff is very interchangeable and I like cool villains and NPC heroes whereever they may be found.

"And finally, SAS simply didn't build up the fan base in 12 months that HERO has over 25 years. Reality Storm was also a game without significant Crunchy Bits (except for the conversion) to appeal to the HERO base, which was much larger than the SAS base."

It did have a cool story though. At least my players thought so when I ran it for them using the SAS rules.

Allen

[Publius]

I've met, talked with and gamed with Mark for the last few years at Ambercon. He is a gentleman's gentleman with a darned good sense of humor and genuine warmth. I wish that he were not in the position he is now, and having my own company more or less on life support (though I only have a little debt, I rake in just a little as well) I understand his feelings and frustrations.

[Sketchpad]

You know, if everybody who's suggested in the last few days that Hero should buy and republish SAS had bought the Hero/SAS crossover book Reality Storm... well, a lot more people would have bought Reality Storm than actually did. That book was our single worst-selling title *ever*, and that was before GoO had any problems. Are you guys seriously suggesting there's more demand for it now, or are you all Green Ronin spies trying to eliminate us as competition too? :confused: dw

I bought a copy ... I use it for the conversion matrix in the back ;)


Well, I certainly am not a spy.

I will say that I like the SAS characters better than the Champions universe (with a few notable exceptions.)

Personal preference I guess, but I find the SAS world and characters feel more Comic Book-y to me where the Champions come off more like NPCs.

I'll agree with this point ... though it's not a huge surprise, as I'm not a huge fan of the current Champions U.


I do think that the long delays cooled some of the enthusiasm for Reality Storm, that might be part of the reason for the lackluster sales. I don't know, I bought my copy so it wasn't my fault. ;)

Again I'll agree with ya ;) I know the intital ferver was huge for this book ... but, because of the delays and such, it just seemed to dwindle away ...

[Lord Liaden]

Again I'll agree with ya ;) I know the intital ferver was huge for this book ... but, because of the delays and such, it just seemed to dwindle away ...

By the time Reality Storm finally came out, SAS had been languishing for a while, with little new product support from GoO, so it was no longer a "hot topic" property among gamers.

[Allensh]

You can order a 5ER direct from Hero's Online Store if your local store isn't having any luck getting it. It is instock right now.

TB



Done as of this morning. Since I still have my Hero System Resource Kit I can actually start working on characters before the book gets here. Plan on running some Pulp Hero first (minus the book which I don't have yet) and then see if they can handle Champions. I expect I will still run more M&M, but at least I will be able to run Hero when I get the itch now.

Allen

[Hermit]

You know, if everybody who's suggested in the last few days that Hero should buy and republish SAS had bought the Hero/SAS crossover book Reality Storm... well, a lot more people would have bought Reality Storm than actually did. That book was our single worst-selling title *ever*, and that was before GoO had any problems. Are you guys seriously suggesting there's more demand for it now, or are you all Green Ronin spies trying to eliminate us as competition too? :confused: dw
I got mine. :) Though I agree with TB that the delays that plagued it really killed enthusiasm for it. Which is a shame, as I thought it was a good product.

[Greywind]

The delay waiting for it bummed me out some, but I bought mine as soon as it was available. It's a really well done adventure.

[Funksaw]

More seriously, if this whole "unemployment" thing doesn't let up soon, I'd like to know who the hell has copyright over Tri-Stat DX because, goddamnit, I -could- create a 2nd edition myself, but I don't want to put that much work into something and then get a massive Cease & Desist.

[rjcurrie]

"Well, I'm sorry, Darren, but while SAS and HERO are two great systems, SAS's setting and HERO's settings are pretty much redundant. Sure, we here on the boards may talk about Dr. Destroyer and Foxbat with a knowing eye - but I'll bet you most players are playing Champions without using the Champions setting, preferring either Marvel or DC."

That has not been my experience during my 20-some years of playing and running Champions. The only time I ever saw DC or Marvel write-ups used in a game were at conventions - except for one time when I played The Human Bomb in an adventure. Many more people seemed to like taking their original heroes and taking down Doctor Destroyer.

"But for the most part, HERO and SAS gamers don't particularly use the other system and really aren't interested in the other system's setting. While HERO and SAS share many similarities in game design, one is rules-heavy, the other rules-light(er)."

I cheerfully use stuff from every superhero RPG I own in my game, and in my setting, Millenium City, Empire City, Freedom City and San Angelo all exist. The stuff is very interchangeable and I like cool villains and NPC heroes whereever they may be found.

"And finally, SAS simply didn't build up the fan base in 12 months that HERO has over 25 years. Reality Storm was also a game without significant Crunchy Bits (except for the conversion) to appeal to the HERO base, which was much larger than the SAS base."

It did have a cool story though. At least my players thought so when I ran it for them using the SAS rules.

Allen

In the Champions games that I played in, virtually every GM (about 10, including myself) had his own universe with his own characters. Occasionally, a Champions Universe character or organization might be used and often heavily modified (sometimes just leaving the name), but just as likely not. And not a single GM or player ever used Marvel or DC as anything but inspiration.

[Lord Liaden]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone else considered substituting Sentinel for Captain Patriot in the official CU timeline? (What can I say, I really like the old man, and this seemed the easiest way to fit him in.)

In my modified CU, I gave Don Randall (Captain Patriot's alter ego) the same history as Max Liberty (aka Sentinel), up to the time that he became a civilian instructor for the military. He was working out of Fort McLaughlin outside Haynesville, Kansas, when the Nazi's magical Walpurgisnacht Working accidentally transformed him into America's first superhero.

At first this version of Sentinel wasn't that much more powerful than Captain Patriot, but unlike CP whose powers faded over time, Sentinel's have increased, until he reached his contemporary power level.

[Spence]

Well I am disappointed with GoO's demise. Not because I was a big fan or player of their systems. But I have recently gotten into anime and just ordered a copy of BESM 3rd for when it released through my FLGS. Now it looks like I won't ever see it.

I am certainly not an expert, but most of the super-die hard BESM players around here blame the d20 titles GoO put out. They say they have every title of BESM or TriTac, but not one title that had a d20 component. I don't know if this is an any way true, but you never know.

As for Hero Games to buy BESM or other properties of GoO just doesn't make sense. It would be diluting their income base. I REALLY REALLY do hope that the original BESM system gets carried on by someone. I am not too concerned by any of the d20 titles, I was never too excited by d20 anyway.

About the only thing I would love to see Hero publish is a AnimeHero book. But as for licensed titles along the line of Hellsing, Trigun, Gundam or Full Metal Panic source books, while I would love to see them. I am probably one of a small minority who would. Maybe in a few years, given the growing popularity of anime. But for right now it just doesn't seem feasible.

From the peanut gallery looking in through the window, it seems to me Hero is doing well because they know their current limitations, recognize their strengths and are staying focused on what works. While I may think a few of the books were a bit on the thin side, they were well within what anyone could call industry standard and they kept to a much higher standard than many game books I have bought in the past.

I hope that Hero keeps on the straight and narrow as it is now. When the polls come out to ask what the fans would like to see in the 08 line up, I hope enough people support the thought of AnimeHero being added to the list. I doubt it will happen, but one can hope.

As for GoO, it is ALWAYS sad to see a game company end. I am especially saddened to see that there are HeroGamers out there throwing rocks. Not many or all, but some. The one thing I can say with certainty, it is possible for a small company to do everything right, have a great product, sell it well and still go out of business. I have not met him, but I wish Mark the best in his future endeavors and hope that his "leaving the gaming industry" does not mean he will be distancing himself from gaming all together.

Good luck to Mark and all of the people at GoO.

[Funksaw]

I do have to say that this -is- a good point.

Look, I've earned a pretty strong reputation as a d20 "hayta" and I can't say that I'm overly fond of a system which measures massive power differences in terms of ones and twos when the core mechanic is a single d20. There's a reason linear systems tend to work in post-apoc (Twilight 2000) and horror settings (Call of Cthulhu, Unkown Armies,) but they don't tend to work otherwise. It's hard to get immersed when there's absolutely no consistancy. Hell, for most d20 games, you might as well flip a freakin' coin instead.

Sorry. I did it again. I went on a tangent.

Anyway, it's simply true that GOO's d20 products were really power build systems with a broad range of that really didn't mesh with d20. SAS and BESM d20 had character archetypes but you could just skip those and go with a 'generic' class, and what you end up with was a point-buy system square peg pounded into the class-level round hole of d20.

The big problem, as I saw it then and see it now - was that GOO mainly had a generic ruleset in BESM, and trying to convert it to d20 was... well, for lack of a better term, not that smart an idea. Settings? Sure - but there was no official GOO setting.

BESM was a hit like Vampire was a hit - it appealed to the anime geek (like Vampire appealed to the goths) and it was simple enough to learn and play quickly. (Say what you will about the old vampire, but character creation was dead simple.)

Tri-stat players just simply weren't interested in a more-complex, less robust ruleset, d20 gamers simply aren't interested in a point-buy system.

I do know that at one time, I owned SAS Tri-Stat hardcover, three copies of tri-stat DX printed, and BESM 2e. I did give BESM d20 a try because I thought it would be useful for running ONE specific type of genre emulation - specifically, Final Fantasy games where you -are- expected to "level up" and the like - but I ended up buying the "stingy" edition at the used bookstore for $5. I honestly don't think there was a big market for those d20 products.

[Allensh]

I completely agree that the d20 version of Silver age Sentinels was not the best. But at the time, it made them a lot of money :) My issue with it was that it was "just d20 enough" to get the logo but not really d20. The Tri-Stat version is a good game though.

Allen