Zweihander Sword Art

[Michael Hopcroft]

Does anyone have a Martial Arts package for a Zweihander or Zweihander-style weapon?

[Lord Liaden]

I would suggest going to this webpage (http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/medievalma.html) from "Surbrook's Stuff," and scrolling down to the Great Weapon listing. The German two-handed sword is one of the weapon substyles listed for it.

[TheQuestionMan]

Academie Duello
http://www.academieduello.com/index.html

Zweihänder (Bihänder)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweih%C3%A4nder

Die Kreuzritter (7th Sea, Theah's Eisen)
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/krjsw.html

Flamberg Swords
http://www.imperialweapons.com/swords/Deepeeka/Flamberg.html



Cheers

QM

[Old Man]

It seems to me that such a martial arts package really ought to include a purpose-built sweep maneuver. I'm too lazy to dig up my books and see if such a maneuver already exists; you might have to build it yourself.

[Lord Liaden]

I think that depends on how much historical accuracy you want in the weapon art. To me the Sweep maneuver is like the double-footed flying kick: looks great on the movie or TV screen, but in real life you end up flat on your back with people kicking you.

[Susano]

It seems to me that such a martial arts package really ought to include a purpose-built sweep maneuver. I'm too lazy to dig up my books and see if such a maneuver already exists; you might have to build it yourself.

I can tall you from SCA fighting, sweeps with a Great Weapon are not a good idea. Unless you define it as a rapid series of individual hits -- but even then, it's not easy. I don't see that being part o regular training.

However, Sweeping strikes against massed pike shafts is a valid technique, as many German greatswords men were employed to do just that.

[AmadanNaBriona]

I can tall you from SCA fighting, sweeps with a Great Weapon are not a good idea. Unless you define it as a rapid series of individual hits -- but even then, it's not easy. I don't see that being part o regular training.

However, Sweeping strikes against massed pike shafts is a valid technique, as many German greatswords men were employed to do just that.
I'll second what Mike says here, also from personal experiences.

And on the topic of sweeping against pikes, I'm not quite sure whats the best way to simulate the way this works in RL. I'm kinda leaning towards Sweeping a Weapon Bind. Most of the time a greatsword won't actually cut the pikeshafts, but rather will just move a bunch of them way out of line, getting their points tangled in each other (which is a pain to correct from the POV of a pikeman... those 12-15+ foot hafts aren't easy to maneuver once they get knocked around). This allows the greatswordsmen to open a vunerable spot in the pikewall and lets their own formation penetrate.

[TheQuestionMan]

In General Two Handed Swords are intended to be used against Horsemen, Pikemen, and other Great Weapons. In my SCA experience a Two Handed Sword was used to knock other weapons away and allow the Pikemen to Strike unopposed.

[prestidigitator]

Actually, it sounds like some kind of Shove to me.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Actually, it sounds like some kind of Shove to me.
Yeah, that could work too

[Thia Halmades]

They are shoving and crushing weapons - not cleaving and slicing. Isn't there a Medieval MA in UMA?

[mikesama]

Given the German love of grappling and it's integration into their armed arts, here is my idea of the style of a doppelsoldier.

Martial Block
Martial Escaoe
Martial Strike
Takedown
Joint Break
Martial Bind
Reversal
Martial Disarm
Offensive Strike
Defensive strike

WEapon elements
Blades
Unarmed

Skills
WF common melee weapons
PS Solider


There are a couple of things to note when dealing with the Zweihander.

1st: If you use weapon lengths the wielder can grip the ricasso and change it from a Long weapon to a medium weapon. (one could also argue that you could sacrafice some damage for OCV as the weapon does not have the same ammount of force imparted but is much more responsive to use)

2nd: When faced with heavy armor one could reverse the weapon and attempt a "morteschlage" or murder stroke using the quilkons like a pick. In this case treat the weapon as a pick of the same size with penalty to OCV (While you use it in the manner of a pick it is not balanced anything like one)

[Michael Hopcroft]

1st: If you use weapon lengths the wielder can grip the ricasso and change it from a Long weapon to a medium weapon. (one could also argue that you could sacrafice some damage for OCV as the weapon does not have the same ammount of force imparted but is much more responsive to use)

2nd: When faced with heavy armor one could reverse the weapon and attempt a "morteschlage" or murder stroke using the quilkons like a pick. In this case treat the weapon as a pick of the same size with penalty to OCV (While you use it in the manner of a pick it is not balanced anything like one)
One question: just how sharp were these things? Because while we tend to think of swords as well, really, really sharp, this sounds like the sort of weapon where a really fine edge would actually be a serious liability.

How would the presence of a really shard edge, or an enchantment with that effect, alter the way the weapon is used?

[prestidigitator]

One question: just how sharp were these things? Because while we tend to think of swords as well, really, really sharp, this sounds like the sort of weapon where a really fine edge would actually be a serious liability.

How would the presence of a really shard edge, or an enchantment with that effect, alter the way the weapon is used?
They were certainly sharp. Its just that the major benefit of their size was the ability to bash the hell out of someone in armor even if the weapon could not sufficiently get through the armor to spill some blood (armor crushed into your body is not a good thing; even if it doesn't do a bunch of direct damage, constriction, wear, and the difficulty of removing the armor afterward can be a major problem). Even swinging at an unarmored target would do decent bashing/crushing damage in addition to cutting the hell out of them (damaging organs and/or causing a lot of bleeding). So, for example, even if you didn't cut far enough to get through bone, you very well might still fracture the limb.

[Susano]

One question: just how sharp were these things? Because while we tend to think of swords as well, really, really sharp, this sounds like the sort of weapon where a really fine edge would actually be a serious liability.

How would the presence of a really shard edge, or an enchantment with that effect, alter the way the weapon is used?

Also realize that at the end of the day, there's a good chance your sharp edged sword is now just a club. A 6' metal club, but just a club.

[mikesama]

One question: just how sharp were these things? Because while we tend to think of swords as well, really, really sharp, this sounds like the sort of weapon where a really fine edge would actually be a serious liability.

How would the presence of a really shard edge, or an enchantment with that effect, alter the way the weapon is used?

What was common was for the foible of the blade to be sharp and the ricasso to be rather dull. You do your cutting and stabbing with the end, where there is better leverage for doing damage. If the edge is sharp it also is more likely to crack nessesitating costly repairs to a sword.

Having a really sharp blade would make a difffenernce mostly when dealing with light cuts against relativly light armor. Heavy mail and plate will almost always keep you from getting cut by a sword. What it won't do is allow you to ignore the force behind a 4 pound 4 foot long lever arm.

[Wulf]

The problem is, there are many styles to fight with an "Zweihänder".

1st: The classic style. Both hands on the grip and then let it roll ^^. Perfect to keep your enemy at distance, but youre very fast exhaustet and you can´t dodge or parry very well. And a quick opponent can come close and kill you.
(+1 OCV/-2 DCV +2 Dmg Class)


2nd: One hand on grip, one on the knob. Just fighting like you´ve got an 1 1/2 hand sword.

3rd: One hand on grip, one hand on the "false sharpness" (The part of the sword over the parry thing...sorry, i dont know the english term for it ). Sword is held over the head. In this way you can easily sting someone and can parry more easily.
(-1 OCV/ +2 DCV)


That are my suggestions...


Wulfi

[mikesama]

The problem is, there are many styles to fight with an "Zweihänder".

1st: The classic style. Both hands on the grip and then let it roll ^^. Perfect to keep your enemy at distance, but youre very fast exhaustet and you can´t dodge or parry very well. And a quick opponent can come close and kill you.
(+1 OCV/-2 DCV +2 Dmg Class)


2nd: One hand on grip, one on the knob. Just fighting like you´ve got an 1 1/2 hand sword.

3rd: One hand on grip, one hand on the "false sharpness" (The part of the sword over the parry thing...sorry, i dont know the english term for it ). Sword is held over the head. In this way you can easily sting someone and can parry more easily.
(-1 OCV/ +2 DCV)


That are my suggestions...


Wulfi


Each of those three ways is one way you should learn to use it within a single school. Of those the 2nd is not quite like a hand and a half due to differing leverage, blade length and quillion design.

And for all you people who want to talk sword here are some of the general terms used when describing a sword.

Foibe: Generally the top 3rd of the blade, used for your cuts and thrusts.
Forte: The bottom 3rd of the blade generally where your parrying is done.
Quillions: The cross piece that forms the guard right above your dominant hand on most swords.
Pommel: The metal knob on the end of the sword hilt which holds the sword together and is used for pummeling someone if they get to close to swing a sword at them.
Hilt: the 'handle' of the sword consisting of the quillions, grip and pommel.
Riccasso: on some swords the blade near the hilt is not shapped down into a diamond on wedge shape but retains the bar shap of the blade that extends under the hilt. This is what you usually grap past the quillions on a Zweihander.
Fuller: the so called 'blood groove' has nothing to do with making blood flow easier but is a way of lightening the blade without causing and structural issues with the blade.