Magic System Question #1

[Kortay Mirlor]

Hi all!

I'm going to be running a FH campaign when the GM finishes the current campaign (long story, I'll spare ya ;) )

I'm designing the magic system and would like some advice. First question.

I want spells to be hard, long, expensive, maybe painful to LEARN, but easy to cast when ya know 'em.

For example: Extra Time is for each casting, so it's out. Same reasoning re. Expendable Focus.

Any ideas?

[Hugh Neilson]

Sounds like there wouldn't be a lot of limitations on the spells themselves. "It takes a long time to learn" isn't a lot different from "You need to find a mentor". It simply says "You'll have to do some in-game work to learn a spell, and the GM may or may not facilitate it happening".

In fact, making them hard to acquire and expensive to obtain, to me, makes spells a lot more like equipment than "powers". With that in mind, I'd be inclined to make spells more "purchased with money" than "purchased with points" - they shouldn't be both. That may imply a more skill-based magic system - eg. the character has now learned Fireball, so he may buy the Fireball spell as a skill. This could be as basic as "spell familiarity", similar to weapon familiarity, or a full Skill for each spell, with the level of the skill determining the power the character can place behind the spell.

A caution: make it too tough or painful for characters to acquire spells, and you'll likely find yourself with a very warrior-heavy group of player characters.

[Thia Halmades]

Okay, well. First, you can try Killer Shrike's site (he has numerous magic systems pre built). I can sit here and expound until I'm blue in the face, if that'll help. "hard to learn" is a ***** to model, really, since you either throw CP at the problem, or throw campaign currency at the problem. Rarity is the issue, methinks.

Compound that with Hugh's suggestion - Skill Rolls - and you're on your way. If you want to do something like d20, then you'll build 9 Casting Skills (one for each sphere) and then spells within them, each Requiring a Skill Roll, which is a good representation of "spell difficulty."

[katal3]

Well In a system where spells are relativly unhindered Limitation wise, the Point cost of the power is it's own deterent. It may take a long time for a caster to build up the necessary XP to learn a new spell, from there simply define a general guideline for how much training it takes to learn a spell of RP cost "X"
In one magic system I have learning the necessary skill roll takes about 2 months per 1- Roll (thus a 8- takes 16 months to learn). if you wanted to adapt this to RP Cost I'd sugest perhaps 1 month/2 RP, that way your average Fireball alone could take over a year of training to master.

[Willow]

want spells to be hard, long, expensive, maybe painful to LEARN

Use as few disadvantages as possible, and absolutely no power frameworks for wizards. The big thing here then is that their spells cost lots and lots of character points, which is everything you just described. It should balance itself on its own that way.

[Basil]

Hi all!

I'm going to be running a FH campaign when the GM finishes the current campaign (long story, I'll spare ya ;) )

I'm designing the magic system and would like some advice. First question.

I want spells to be hard, long, expensive, maybe painful to LEARN, but easy to cast when ya know 'em.

For example: Extra Time is for each casting, so it's out. Same reasoning re. Expendable Focus.

Any ideas?
I can see two methods. Which is best would depend on the answer to this question: Does it take the same amount of time, effort, etc. to learn every spell?

If "yes," or "similar amounts," I'd call it part of The Way The World Works™, and just make it background; don't bother statting it out.

If "no," especially if "not even close," I'd make it a Limited Power Limitation, Must Expend X Amount Of Time, Money, Effort, STUN Damage, and vary how much for each spell. Also, some spells could take only time, only money, mostly effort (END) with a little money, etc., depending on what was appropriate for the specific spell.

[Cosmosemeritus]

I notice the use of the word painful in your description...

Painful to the character or painful to the player?

Not much is more painful to the player than the loss of CPs. In that vein you might consider having the learning process require the expenditure of points prior to a roll (skill-based or whatever). If the roll fails, the points go away; like dropping that independant focus while crossing the Bottomless Pits of Targasso.

[Thia Halmades]

That's... wow, that's almost unreasonable. I think one of the laws of HERO is that unless you take Independent, your points are YOUR POINTS. Taking points away on a failed skill roll. That's. Blasphemy.

[Killer Shrike]

You might find some material here that is useful to you:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.shtml

Specifically you might want to direct your attention to this document which is all about things to consider when making a Magic System:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign.shtml


There are also numerous Magic Systems with sample characters and package deals provided, one or more of which might prove inspirational.


Speaking specifically towards your request, these Magic Systems have spells that are somewhat "hard" to learn via the cost and time involved for each new spell and to improve known spells:

Magecraft:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Magecraft.shtml

Spellweaving:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Spellweaving.shtml

Metier:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Metier.shtml

Aeldenaren:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/aeldenaren.shtml


Any of the Vancian Magic Systems, particularly ones using the "Spontaneous Casting" model:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/vancianSpontaneousMP.shtml

Feel free to direct questions at me via the boards or email at killershrike@killershrike.com , and good luck.

[Hugh Neilson]

I notice the use of the word painful in your description...

Painful to the character or painful to the player?

Not much is more painful to the player than the loss of CPs. In that vein you might consider having the learning process require the expenditure of points prior to a roll (skill-based or whatever). If the roll fails, the points go away; like dropping that independant focus while crossing the Bottomless Pits of Targasso.

This would certainly get the "painful" aspect across. I'd have some concerns with this approach, however. Loss of CP being painful, players will choose this option only if the benefits of success are significant - commensurate with the risks and costs of failure.

If that balance is achieved, however, we get a random power level among characters. Let's assume the chance of a successful skill roll is 1 in 3 (and there's no way to improve your chances by min-max'ing). Character A and Character B both try to learn, say, 9 spells as part of character creation. Character A is unlucky - he fails all 9 rolls. Character B is on a hot streak and succeeds with 8 of 9. We now have one character who is hugely overpowered, and a second who may as well fall on his sword.

Like 2 D&D characters, one who rolls 18 18 18 17 17 16 and another who rolls 8 8 8 7 7 6. We end up with a random power level for characters, based on luck of the dice. Meanwhile, Character C, the warrior whose CP expenditures always get what he pays for, is overpowered compared to A and underpowered compared to B.

Mechanically, you got what you wanted. Philisophically, did you want the right thing?

[Cosmosemeritus]

That's... wow, that's almost unreasonable. I think one of the laws of HERO is that unless you take Independent, your points are YOUR POINTS. Taking points away on a failed skill roll. That's. Blasphemy.

True... true... but you can't deny that its painful. :-)

<!--/SHOCK_TACTICS-->

The real point is that if you want a process to be time consuming, arduous and painful to the characters (rather than the players), you should do this through story. From reading the OP's post it seems as if he's already planning on making the spells cost points. If the cost is high enough (and the rate of xp gain low enough) to discourage casual spell purchase, and if the GM imposes certain story elements the process of learning a new spell can be a difficult process and an enjoyable playing experience.

Make spell acquisition involve quests to distant lands or the acquisition of rare objects to be given to the spell instructor.

"Ere I deem you worthy to learn my secret Sigil of Sanctimonity, you must return to me the Sacred Solids of Socrates!"

[Kortay Mirlor]

I notice the use of the word painful in your description...

Painful to the character or painful to the player?
The charrie. STUN cost, etc.

To the "it's part of the story, don't write it out crowd": won't work with my group. Their POV: if it ain't written out, how can you be sure it's fair.

I agree!! Too d**m much "GM says-so" goes on. We want to see it written out ahead of time; that way, you can't say the GM's unfair. It may be arbitrary, it may seem stupid, but its fair cause you know what yer getting. An' if its written, why not a Limitation?

Any ideas what Limitation to use for "Only to learn"?

[Cosmosemeritus]

Any ideas what Limitation to use for "Only to learn"?

Since points aren't actually expended until the the power is acquired, a limitation that affects only the acquisition of the said power wouldn't limit the use or effectiveness of the power itself, thus be worth no points.


How about this? Require spellcasters to have a power that allows them to learn new spells. It could either be a major transform or a custom power (or something else). Have it take a long time, have side effects, cost cubic furlongs of endurance, and any other nasty limitations. If you use a transform, perhaps have it target the character's EGO or INT rather than Body.

[Hugh Neilson]

How about this? Require spellcasters to have a power that allows them to learn new spells. It could either be a major transform or a custom power (or something else). Have it take a long time, have side effects, cost cubic furlongs of endurance, and any other nasty limitations. If you use a transform, perhaps have it target the character's EGO or INT rather than Body.

It could be a custom Multiform - same character with his one new spell, but without the Multiform, no changing back. The limitations apply only when activating the Multiform, so will be a non-issue once the new form is in place (provided it doesn't kill you in the process and you have time to recuperate).

Want a new spell? You need to buy another Multiform with XP.

[KA.]

One way to model "Painful to Learn" is to have something in place like a "School of Magic" or "Wizard's Academy" etc. where you had to go to learn a new spell.
Part of the process could be something like 'fitness testing' which would mean that you would learn a lesser version of the spell with an Activation Roll and Side Effects.
The only way to really learn the full version of the spell would be to complete, say, three, successful castings of the "Learning Version" while at the Academy.
These trials would be public, and at least three faculty members would have to be present (behind suitable protection, of course) for the casting to count. Meanwhile the person wanting to learn the spell would have to survive three castings, and any Side Effects caused by the spells that fail.
I second the suggestion that the cost of spells be pretty close to the actual cost of the powers, with perhaps a small (-1/2) discount, and no Frameworks.

So, the process to learn a new spell would be:
1) Save up enough XP to purchase the Spell
2) Find the proper Academy to learn it
3) Pay whatever the fee is to learn the spell.
(Of course there has to be a fee, don't you think it costs money to keep the Academy running?)
4) Learn the Training Spell with the Activation and Side Effects (This spell could be, maybe 2/3 the power level of the actual spell. You don't want it too wimpy or there would be no danger when the Side Effects went off.)
NOTE: The Character has to actually BUY THIS SPELL with XP.
If they are never able to complete the trial, they get stuck with this version of the spell, along with the Activation and Side Effects.
Even if they have or gain enough XP to buy off these Limitations at some point in the future, they cannot. The only way to get rid of them is to complete the process at the Academy.
5) They keep trying until they either cast the spell successfully three times, or get killed trying, or run out of money.
(There is, of course, a FEE for each trial. Those blast walls don't rebuild themselves, you know!)
They don't have to cast it three times in a row, unless you want to be a real bastard, just three times during their stay at the Academy.
(Of course there is a daily FEE for staying at the Academy. We can't afford to offer free room and board to a bunch of untalented fledgling wizards, you know!)
6) If they complete the trial, they spend the rest of the XP and get the full version of the spell.

By the way, no protective spells/gear are allowed during the casting of the Trial Spells, and you are not allowed to alter the probability of the Activation or Side Effects rolls by any means.

KA.

P.S. If you haven't, you should read: Master of the Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345319079/sr=8-1/qid=1152591913/ref=sr_1_1/102-3300994-9800104?ie=UTF8
It has a lot of cool ideas for keeping Magic Users 'in their place'.

[SteelDoom]

Seems to me that "painful to learn" might be so that people don't dabble in magic. Elemental Frameworks might fit this model well as there is usually a reasonably large point cost for buying spells compared to say a multi power or variable power pool.

[Savinien]

Wouldn't it be simpler to just make Mages pay full CP cost for their powers?

[Shadowpup]

Seems to me that "painful to learn" might be so that people don't dabble in magic. Elemental Frameworks might fit this model well as there is usually a reasonably large point cost for buying spells compared to say a multi power or variable power pool.


Yeah, but you might not want them using all of their spells at the same time.

Learning magic can be painful -

Spells require a Magic Skill Roll. So characters have to invest in Spell Slinging 3/2

Putting the limitation Requires Skill Roll adds a skill roll penalty depending on the active points cost of the spell. Bigger spells are harder to cast so magic casters have to invest more in Spell Slinging in order to get their spells off more often.

Other than Requires Skill Roll, don't put or don't allow many Limitations on spells. This makes each spell more expensive to buy.

$$$ to research, learn, hire a mentor, guild fees, magical components, blah blah blah.

[prestidigitator]

You could start the RSR of every newly acquired spell at 8-, and for each successful casting in a stressful situation--not just sitting around in a field practicing--increase the roll by +1 or something until it reaches the character's normal skill roll. That seems like a painful and risky enough learning curve to me. :)

If the magic system otherwise doesn't have RSRs, use an Activation Roll (though probably for each activation, not each Phase; more like a RSR in this regard) instead, and once the Activation gets to 18-, drop the Activation Roll completely.

Also consider adding some Side Effects (probably minor ones, but it might depend on the spell) until the spell is fully learned in either case.

Oh, or if you want a different learning curve, increase the roll for each unsuccessful casting, or just each stressful casting period, regardless of success or failure. Whatever. Pretty tunable IMO.

[Kortay Mirlor]

How about this? Require spellcasters to have a power that allows them to learn new spells. It could either be a major transform or a custom power (or something else). Have it take a long time, have side effects, cost cubic furlongs of endurance, and any other nasty limitations. If you use a transform, perhaps have it target the character's EGO or INT rather than Body.
Bingo! We have a winner! This'll let me put the STUN Drain (HKA?), Extra Time, Expendable Focus (money or valuable shtuff), etc., on a power other than the spell. I like Hugh Neilson's how-to of basing it off of Multiform. I don't like making the "new you" not have the Multiform, though. Perhaps use the "+5 points doubles" rule but changing to "+5 points adds one more form". Any ideas best way to do that?

[Kortay Mirlor]

One way to model "Painful to Learn" is to have something in place like a "School of Magic" or "Wizard's Academy" etc. where you had to go to learn a new spell.
Part of the process could be something like 'fitness testing' which would mean that you would learn a lesser version of the spell with an Activation Roll and Side Effects.
The only way to really learn the full version of the spell would be to complete, say, three, successful castings of the "Learning Version" while at the Academy.
These trials would be public, and at least three faculty members would have to be present (behind suitable protection, of course) for the casting to count. Meanwhile the person wanting to learn the spell would have to survive three castings, and any Side Effects caused by the spells that fail.
I second the suggestion that the cost of spells be pretty close to the actual cost of the powers, with perhaps a small (-1/2) discount, and no Frameworks.

So, the process to learn a new spell would be:
1) Save up enough XP to purchase the Spell
2) Find the proper Academy to learn it
3) Pay whatever the fee is to learn the spell.
(Of course there has to be a fee, don't you think it costs money to keep the Academy running?)
4) Learn the Training Spell with the Activation and Side Effects (This spell could be, maybe 2/3 the power level of the actual spell. You don't want it too wimpy or there would be no danger when the Side Effects went off.)
NOTE: The Character has to actually BUY THIS SPELL with XP.
If they are never able to complete the trial, they get stuck with this version of the spell, along with the Activation and Side Effects.
Even if they have or gain enough XP to buy off these Limitations at some point in the future, they cannot. The only way to get rid of them is to complete the process at the Academy.
5) They keep trying until they either cast the spell successfully three times, or get killed trying, or run out of money.
(There is, of course, a FEE for each trial. Those blast walls don't rebuild themselves, you know!)
They don't have to cast it three times in a row, unless you want to be a real bastard, just three times during their stay at the Academy.
(Of course there is a daily FEE for staying at the Academy. We can't afford to offer free room and board to a bunch of untalented fledgling wizards, you know!)
6) If they complete the trial, they spend the rest of the XP and get the full version of the spell.

By the way, no protective spells/gear are allowed during the casting of the Trial Spells, and you are not allowed to alter the probability of the Activation or Side Effects rolls by any means.

KA.

Thanks for the ideas. I'll adapt some to my world, for the roleplaying side of learning spells. Not the "try it till you get it"---spells in my world always work.

The money-grubbing "academy" is good tho. :eg: May be what/who causes the pain (STUN Drain). Hmm.... Blood magik?

[Kortay Mirlor]

Wouldn't it be simpler to just make Mages pay full CP cost for their powers?
I already planned to forbid Frameworks.

But I don't see how you're talking about the question/request I had/have.

[prestidigitator]

Bingo! We have a winner! This'll let me put the STUN Drain (HKA?), Extra Time, Expendable Focus (money or valuable shtuff), etc., on a power other than the spell. I like Hugh Neilson's how-to of basing it off of Multiform. I don't like making the "new you" not have the Multiform, though. Perhaps use the "+5 points doubles" rule but changing to "+5 points adds one more form". Any ideas best way to do that?
If you really want to go with that idea, I'd definitely call it a Transform, not a Multiform. Multiform is for characters who can actively switch between different forms. Transform is for making more or less permanent changes. Since the character will have to pay for the new powers anyway, it doesn't really matter that it is being used on the character him/herself.

[Hugh Neilson]

Bingo! We have a winner! This'll let me put the STUN Drain (HKA?), Extra Time, Expendable Focus (money or valuable shtuff), etc., on a power other than the spell. I like Hugh Neilson's how-to of basing it off of Multiform. I don't like making the "new you" not have the Multiform, though. Perhaps use the "+5 points doubles" rule but changing to "+5 points adds one more form". Any ideas best way to do that?

You could Limit the Multiform with "character must have enough earned and unspent xp to purchase the desired new spell(s) in order to change forms". Let them buy doublings normally - they effectively must spend the xp on the spells anyway, so the basic Multiform becomes, essentially, a perk to permit the character to learn new spells.

Alternatively, you could require it be acquired with 1 non-recoverable charge. They have to repurchase the Multiform power each time they wish to change form. I suspect it will be loaded down with enough limitations that it will be pretty cheap and, in any case, the new form simply won't pay for Multiform from the outset, and will therefore have the "correct" character points.

EXAMPLE: Malar the Munificent is a 150 point character. His player wants a new spell that will cost 25 points. He saves up 25 xp. Maral buys Multiform (175 point character; 35 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 3 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 175 point with new spells, form.

When that form wants another 20 points of spells, he buys Multiform (195 point character; 2x forms 44 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 4 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 195 point with new spells, form.

The MP has no real impact, since it will always cost less than the spells added in the new form due to the heaps of limitations on the Multiform.

[katal3]

You could Limit the Multiform with "character must have enough earned and unspent xp to purchase the desired new spell(s) in order to change forms". Let them buy doublings normally - they effectively must spend the xp on the spells anyway, so the basic Multiform becomes, essentially, a perk to permit the character to learn new spells.

Alternatively, you could require it be acquired with 1 non-recoverable charge. They have to repurchase the Multiform power each time they wish to change form. I suspect it will be loaded down with enough limitations that it will be pretty cheap and, in any case, the new form simply won't pay for Multiform from the outset, and will therefore have the "correct" character points.

EXAMPLE: Malar the Munificent is a 150 point character. His player wants a new spell that will cost 25 points. He saves up 25 xp. Maral buys Multiform (175 point character; 35 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 3 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 175 point with new spells, form.

When that form wants another 20 points of spells, he buys Multiform (195 point character; 2x forms 44 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 4 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 195 point with new spells, form.

The MP has no real impact, since it will always cost less than the spells added in the new form due to the heaps of limitations on the Multiform.

By the RAW I'mk pretty sure that such a construct would give you a "new spell" but only for one phase, then the Charge runs out and the power ends. for what I think you were going for, change to 0 END (if it doesn't already can't remember), Persistant, and Always on. Technially you still have the old form with the Multipower, but because the old forms power can never be turned off it's effectivly non-existant. Though perhaps Independent is in order as well, FH indicates that would make the spell a one-shot (they use it for Wish effects...)

However, it seems are very overcomplicated way to learning new spells

[Hugh Neilson]

However, it seems are very overcomplicated way to learning new spells

The multiform (or whatever approach) is just a kludge to achieve the effect the poster desires, which I agree seems a very complicated way to learn new spells. I've commented a few times above that, if acquisition of new spells is sufficiently difficult, costly, risky and/or inconvenient, the end result will be no one playing a spellcaster.

[katal3]

Thats generally what I try for... then a stupid thing like realism bloats a paragraph long magic system concept into a 3 page mechanical nightmare!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!! *runs around like chicken with head cut off, then colapses a moment later*

[Kortay Mirlor]

If you really want to go with that idea, I'd definitely call it a Transform, not a Multiform. Multiform is for characters who can actively switch between different forms. Transform is for making more or less permanent changes. Since the character will have to pay for the new powers anyway, it doesn't really matter that it is being used on the character him/herself.
:thumbdown: Nope. You can't Transform yourself.

[Kortay Mirlor]

You could Limit the Multiform with "character must have enough earned and unspent xp to purchase the desired new spell(s) in order to change forms". Let them buy doublings normally - they effectively must spend the xp on the spells anyway, so the basic Multiform becomes, essentially, a perk to permit the character to learn new spells.

Alternatively, you could require it be acquired with 1 non-recoverable charge. They have to repurchase the Multiform power each time they wish to change form. I suspect it will be loaded down with enough limitations that it will be pretty cheap and, in any case, the new form simply won't pay for Multiform from the outset, and will therefore have the "correct" character points.

EXAMPLE: Malar the Munificent is a 150 point character. His player wants a new spell that will cost 25 points. He saves up 25 xp. Maral buys Multiform (175 point character; 35 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 3 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 175 point with new spells, form.

When that form wants another 20 points of spells, he buys Multiform (195 point character; 2x forms 44 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 4 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 195 point with new spells, form.

The MP has no real impact, since it will always cost less than the spells added in the new form due to the heaps of limitations on the Multiform.

I like a lot of this stuff, but I've decided to go with each form having no Multiform, and having to buy it to switch to a newer form that knows the new spell.

I'm going to have the Multiform have the Limitation: "Cannot Switch Back To Original Form." I think that's a -0 Lim. What do you all think?

[Kortay Mirlor]

The multiform (or whatever approach) is just a kludge to achieve the effect the poster desires, which I agree seems a very complicated way to learn new spells. I've commented a few times above that, if acquisition of new spells is sufficiently difficult, costly, risky and/or inconvenient, the end result will be no one playing a spellcaster.
Ah but the difficulty is only learning the spell. Casting it is a lot easier.

[Hugh Neilson]

Ah but the difficulty is only learning the spell. Casting it is a lot easier.

My assumption is that the character must actually learn the spell in order to cast it. If the learning process is difficult, costly, risky and/or inconvenient, my character will have difficulty spending XP to move in the direction I want. Meanwhile, Freddie Fighter buys skill levels and moves on.

While I wrote up the multiform option, it's really just a kludge to make a mechanical approach to your desired difficulty of learning new spells. I think most of it could be handled through role playing issues just as well, and could impact other characters as well.

Spells are hard to learn? That can be simulated by the need for a teacher, whom you must locate and persuade to instruct you. Freddie might also need an instructor to teach him the use of a new weapon, or to better use his existing ones.

Spells take time to learn? That's easily simulated by requiring time for this instruction - it doesn't need a Multiform with Extra Time. And Freddie's not likely to learn his new skills overnight either, is he?

Spells are expensive to learn? Well, the multiform uses an expendable focus, but we could just as easily say that instructor charges for his services. I doubt Freddie's trainer works for free either.

That leaves "painful", which may need a mechanic (perhaps a Susceptibility required of all spellcasters). But how much impact does this have? Unless the "pain" stands a chance at killing the character, won't he just wait to recover before going out on another adventure? Freddie probably took a hit or two in sparring as well.

And if the damage does stand a serious chance of killing the spellcaster, this is a pretty serious disincentive to spellcaster characters.

The only variant I can think of is some form of long-term drain which will prevent waiting it out, but that's effectively taking points away from our spellcaster. Maybe some form of drain that has an extended recovery, but also recovers when the character uses his new spell (or does something else, perhaps) under strenuous/dangerous circumstances.

I'm not denying there could be a "cool" factor to a danger to learning spells. However, often the "wow cool" concepts turn out to be either overpowered or impractical in play. This could easily be the latter. How cool will the system appear to the player whose character is killed the first time he tries to spend xp to learn a new spell? That possibility will logically enter into player choices.

If my character stands a 10% chance of death (to pick a number out of the blue) each time he learns a new spell, that's a serious disincentive to putting a lot of work into a spellcaster character. On the other hand, there's not a lot of difference, in game, between a system where learning a new spell takes an extra month, or where the spellcaster needs that extra month to recover from the injury sustained in the course of learning that new spell.

Now, you could offset that risk with a reward - maybe spells grant extra power - but that carries its own risks as a lucky spellcaster will start to outstrip the power of his non-spellcasting teammates, while the unlucky ones are still dead. So players choosing spellcaster characters either get lucky and overpowered, or are unlucky and need to make new characters.

BTW, how does "learning spells is expensive, difficult, time consuming and dangerous" translate into the spells a character buys during character creation? Do they avoid these issues, or do you need to check whether your character survived learning those spells as well? [Traveller Flashback]

[Hugh Neilson]

Another issue with this type of system is that it tends to apply only to PC's. Sure, in theory the NPC's went through the same danger, but in practice, I suspect you won't have your PC's encounter an opposing group that would have been a real challenge if their mage hadn't died learning a new spell last week.

"Well, this campaign would have been a lot more challenging but, fortunately for your Fellowship, Sauron failed his save when he tried to learn a new spell yesterday, so he's now dead. Lucky for you guys, since he was a real bad-***. Anyway, with Sauron not round, you guys pretty much have a clear path to Mount Doom. You can just climb it and lob the ring in. So, who's in for pizza?"

[Midas]

LOL

Anyway, here's a couple of ideas to consider.

"Painful" have the spell caster lose say a point of body: Then to balance it out, give the player a two point rebate with the spell cost.

If you have metagamers who will simply take the two point rebate and buy a point of body with it, lower the NCM by one for each spell learned. (No, I don't know how to work that in Hero terms -1/4 generic limitation?). Then the first 10 or so spells are "free" if the player wants to spend his rebate, but the 11th on is gonna cost four points to bring the body back.

Also, I don't have a problem with spending money as well as cp on a spell. You don't think your instructor is working for free, and you can't exactly give him your cp's can you? I think of money as a kind of naked VPP with the ind limitation. Consider, you trade in your last haul on equipment, why can't you send some of it to the sages guild instead of the smithy?

Midas

[prestidigitator]

:thumbdown: Nope. You can't Transform yourself.
Hmm. Nor is there a construct other than maybe a VPP that lets your redefine your powers in a flexible manner. With Multiform you pay points for fixed alternate forms. With Shapeshift you cannot alter your powers.

Besides, what you're really doing in this case is defining a system-level construct for constraining a meta-system-level issue: spending Experience Points. We could really do that any way we liked. There is nothing established in the system for it (by definition). I think using Transform to do this works pretty well (in fact I have done magical item creation as a Transform on self, defined as adding some additional powers through foci). It's nice and simple, and has a built in cumulative method by which you can partially figure out the amount of time it takes. Besides, you buy one power that can then apply to any number of character growths.

I suppose another way would be to define a VPP with Limitations on its Control indicating how long it takes to switch the pool and what kind of powers can be built, then only allow the character to buy the power outside the VPP once the pool has been assigned. Again you need buy only one thing to indicate how the character can shift over time.

:shrug: As you will.

[Markdoc]

The simplest way to deal with this (and the best, I'm thinking) is roleplay. If wizards don't like giving out new spells and it's costly to learn them, that's a pretty solid disincentive.

But if you have to have a mechanism, I'd adapt the old AD&D and Runequest mechanism.

Require every magic-user to have a skill "Learn magic" and to learn a new spell, they have to successfully roll it. It is, of course, affected by active points in the spell (so spells with more active points are harder to learn) and you only get to roll once per session (or once per month or per week, or whatever you decide fits best).

Depending on how punitive you want to be, you could either:
a) decide that a failed roll means the XP for the spell is lost (in which case, all spells should get the independant limitation to explain the XP loss and make up for this limitation). You probably won't get many mages with this system. Or:
b) You keep the XP but can't apply it to anything else for some time. You can of course keep trying to learn the spell, or after a while use it for another spell, or other things. This won't stop people playing mages, but there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth when they fail their rolls. It has the side effect that smart players will take extra time and try to get ideal settings and equipment bonuses to ensure they can learn their spells, which is at least in genre.

cheers, Mark

[Cosmosemeritus]

:thumbdown: Nope. You can't Transform yourself.

I'm afraid I must have missed that one. I just scanned pages 237-241 5ER and didn't see this. Where is this mentioned?

[tgrandjean]

....'Course if you wanted painful to the player you could always go with spell costs X real points. That'll be X blows to the head. ;)
If you're looking for an excuse to drink you could always substitute cost for shots.

[Kortay Mirlor]

I'm afraid I must have missed that one. I just scanned pages 237-241 5ER and didn't see this. Where is this mentioned?

The real rulebook (not v5.5) p.153 in Transform And Other Powers "Characters cannot use Transform on themselves"

[Kortay Mirlor]

Well, thanks for what help you all could give. It'll be the Multiform method.

I just wish I could understand what many of you found hard to understand about "In my group if it ain't written up players will object LOUD." :think:

[Cosmosemeritus]

The real rulebook (not v5.5 :sick:) p.153 in Transform And Other Powers "Characters cannot use Transform on themselves"

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... :nonp:

[Kortay Mirlor]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... :nonp:

You think I'm lying?

Look it up yourself, please, before making such accusations.

[Hugh Neilson]

You think I'm lying?

Look it up yourself, smart-mouth!

I think Cos may have been referring to the slight resistance to change implicit in the tone of your post, rather than to its technical content. :rolleyes:

[Cosmosemeritus]

You think I'm lying?

Look it up yourself, smart-mouth!

I have no doubts that page 153 of a book contains the phrase you quote. I call into question the identity of this wondrous tome of lore and your perception of it as the only real rulebook.

I asked for assistance locating the rule you mentioned, stating where I had already looked, in the hopes that you'd simply reply with a page number and the title of your reference source. If you had, not only would I have thanked you for the information, I would have been better informed as to which version of what ruleset you were using and thus been better equipped to respond to your other posts in a helpful manner. Instead, not only do you omit the title, but you also insultingly cast doubts upon the validity of my source material.

Now I don't really care if you're using 4th Ed Champions, 3rd Ed AD&D, SJ's Gurps, or Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mechanics as your real rulebook. It doesn't matter. We're here to discuss a game, and in the process of sharing our ideas we learn from each other. If you really want to participate you should learn to respect the opinions of others, especially if you disagree with those opinions.

Respond as you will. After reading some of your other posts, especially your responses to criticism, I fear you may be on your way to becoming a forum troll. I hope you instead grow up just a teensy, tiny bit (we are gamers after all) and learn to respect others.

[Hugh Neilson]

Respond as you will. After reading some of your other posts, especially your responses to criticism, I fear you may be on your way to becoming a forum troll. I hope you instead grow up just a teensy, tiny bit (we are gamers after all) and learn to respect others.

To add to this, KM, there seems to be a steady decline in posts to your threads as time goes on. Your responses to other posters' attempts to provide you with some assistance (a desire for advice and assistance IS why you posted, isn't it?) may well be motivating some of the more knowledgeable and experienced Fantasy Hero gamers not to read or respond to your threads.

[prestidigitator]

To add to this, KM, there seems to be a steady decline in posts to your threads as time goes on. Your responses to other posters' attempts to provide you with some assistance (a desire for advice and assistance IS why you posted, isn't it?) may well be motivating some of the more knowledgeable and experienced Fantasy Hero gamers not to read or respond to your threads.
Yeah. :shrug: I gave my feedback. If it wasn't appreciated, that's fine. I don't see any need to go on, "discussing," though. Heh.
I fear...troll. I hope you instead grow up....
Not sure we have to resort to that kind of talk though. Worded a little bit more tactfully, it wouldn't tend to throw people into the defensive quite so easily.

[McCoy]

The real rulebook (not v5.5 :sick:) p.153 in Transform And Other Powers "Characters cannot use Transform on themselves"
No matter how undiplpmatically he may have stated it, he's right.

FREd, p.153.

[Cosmosemeritus]

FREd, p.153.

Thanks for the clarification. But I still seem to be a little confused. Does FREd = 5E or the old Champions Hardcover?

[LoresLost]

Thanks for the clarification. But I still seem to be a little confused. Does FREd = 5E or the old Champions Hardcover?

The 'Small' 5e book (5th edition 1st edition (initial print runs) :ugly: ) is called FREd by the board members. 5 RE is what most call the present printing of the 5 edition ( 5 ed 2nd edition ?? ). Those who refernence the 4th ed Champions hard cover call it the BBB (the Big Blue Book).
Am I confused yet :doi:

EDIT:
So this is the break down as I understand it
FREd = 5e (1st edition or unrevised version)
5re = 5e (2nd edition or revised version)
BBB = 4e Champions Hardback all in one edition.
/EDIT

[Gawain]

The 'Small' 5e book (5th edition 1st edition (initial print runs) :ugly: ) is called FREd by the board members. 5 RE is what most call the present printing of the 5 edition ( 5 ed 2nd edition ?? ). Those who refernence the 4th ed Champions hard cover call it the BBB (the Big Blue Book).
Am I confused yet :doi:

EDIT:
So this is the break down as I understand it
FREd = 5e (1st edition or unrevised version)
5re = 5e (2nd edition or revised version)
BBB = 4e Champions Hardback all in one edition.
/EDIT

Yeah, that's pretty much it. :)

[Cosmosemeritus]

The 'Small' 5e book (5th edition 1st edition (initial print runs) :ugly: ) is called FREd by the board members. 5 RE is what most call the present printing of the 5 edition ( 5 ed 2nd edition ?? ). Those who refernence the 4th ed Champions hard cover call it the BBB (the Big Blue Book).
Am I confused yet :doi:

EDIT:
So this is the break down as I understand it
FREd = 5e (1st edition or unrevised version)
5re = 5e (2nd edition or revised version)
BBB = 4e Champions Hardback all in one edition.
/EDIT

Thanks much :celebrate puzzle solved

[Cosmosemeritus]

Not sure we have to resort to that kind of talk though. Worded a little bit more tactfully, it wouldn't tend to throw people into the defensive quite so easily.

And my apologies if I came off more caustic than I intended.