Rule of X ideas?

[Chuk]

Does anyone have any guidelines for a good Rule of X for Hero?

This is spurred by a discussion on Pyramid -- one of the posters was coming from Fuzion and wondering if there was anything similar for Hero 5th. I used to have a GM that did something like it and I was curious as to what people here do to make sure their combats are balanced. Heroic and/or super-heroic.

[Trebuchet]

In my campaign we use a guideline of SPEED + Damage Class <= 20. This makes for fast martial artists who don't hit as hard as the slower but more powerful bricks and energy projectors.

Even more important than a Rule of X is communication between the players so they don't step on each other's "schtick". On my team of 7 heroes we have 3 martial artists and they are all very different from each other in abilities and personality.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Without meaning to sound like a jerk, the best advice I can offer about a Rule of X is, "Don't use one." No formula will prevent all abuse, and any formula will end up excluding something that actually isn't abusive. You don't need a Rule of X. You need a GM who has a clear vision of how he or she wants things to relate and work in their game world, and players who want to participate in that. If you have those, you're set. :)

This doesn't mean that all "caps" are bad. But trying to have a single "master formula" that balances everything has never worked, in my experience.

[Keneton]

Sounding like Aaron Nimzovitch there for a sec!

Please see DH#3 for The Effectiveness Rating. This is a 12 years playtested system that has evolved to rate and control campaigns in numerous states and with extremely varying power levels. It has yet to fail!

We use a cap of 100 for player characters on the ER. The Spreadsheet is availlable for free in the Fee Stuff section of this board. The URL is given below.

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/FreeStuff/csheets.htm

I accept e-mails from players with ER questions and try to be quick on responses. If you have a chance to read the article, you will find the mechanics sound.

I am not stating that this sytem replaces a proactive GM, but I ma saying that this tool makes GM rulings sound and fair from a mathmatical standpoint and not arbitrary.

Anyone who knows me will attest to the soundness of my approach and I highly reccomend it.
;)

[JSenecal]

Digital Hero #3 has an effectivness rating that is the most comprehensive rule of X I've ever seen. The Excel spreedsheet for calcuating it is here: http://herogames.com/FreeStuff/charactersheets/New%20EF%20Rating.xls

I've collected several others that are much simpler, though they have know weaknesses that a GM needs to watch for.

[Keneton]

Thanks for the plug J.:D I credit my friends in TN; Mitch Mike Ron, John, Steve x2, and Joe for helping playtest the ER. Mike was the math freak that created this monster, and I am the author of the article. It is a pretty boring read (as most math heavy studd is) but can and does properly rate the combat effectiveness of any character.

We use a cap of 100 for our campaign with a veteran bonus set at 100 ep. For most starting campaigns I might adjsut the veteran bonus to 50. Mitch has a 100 ER character with nearly 2000 earned ep!

When a sytem allows you to balance 2300 point characters, you know it is good!:cool:

[GradonSilverton]

Why not keep it simple and just limit a active point cost to say....35?

[Shadowpup]

Because then you get weak characters that cannot go desolid and cannot get full life support ;)

[GradonSilverton]

Sure they can....they just cant go Desolid while effecting the real world with the 6d6 Area Effect AP Ego Blast...

Bump the Active point cost up if you desire...

But this is a simple way to maintain a playablility level without players being able to destroy balance...

[Keneton]

How could you have that 90 point power you gave as an example if the active point cost was limited to 35!?

6d6 AP Ego attack = 90 active!
How could they go desolid (40 active minimum?) or have full life support (45)

Who wants a chracter that has a max attack of 7d6 normal?

:(

[Ndreare]

The system IO use for my games is

Rule of X (Combined Offence and Deffence with no more than a 50% Variance between the two.)
Activepoints in attack + (OCV*5) + Active Points in Speed= offensive x

Active Points in ALL Defence + (DCV*5)= Deffencive X

Example:
Super Heroes Rule of X =400
Strength 60, Speed 4, OCV 8= 140 Offensive X
Armor 30 rPD 20 rED, 10 Flash Deffence, 20 Body, 60 stun and 5 DCV= 210 Deffensive CombatValue
Well with in the 400 limit.

This allows character that are primaraly deffecive or offensive, does not penalize the character who is neer immune to energy with a giant penalty as if he had high deffences all the way around, and works well for mages or psys becouse it counts their values for mental deffences and powers not just dice of effect.

I have used this system since forth (Even before "Fuzion" was know to me) and it always worked fine.

Fantasy: 200
Heroic Black Ops: 300
Super Heroic: 400
Cosmic: 600
I have never tested it above cosmic level heroes.

[Keneton]

So the strength 60 = 60 active points, but what if he has 50" of movement and +10 levels with move through and can crank out a 28d6 movethough at the same 8 OCV. Your formula leaves a HUGE hole. I am not trying to sound critical, but you leave open all types of things like find weakness, movement, fast draw, desolidification, and damage shileds to name a few.

Also lets be very reasonale and imagine that the sytem could allow for a 250 Offensive and a 150 Defensive. For the offensive I take. . .

20 OCV, 8 Speed, 4 1/2d6 HKA (which I can easily push to crank out 5+1 Killing!)
My DCV Max is also 20 with 18 Defense Both ways and 14 points of exotic defenses covering flash, mental and resistant 10/10.

This character would grease Mechanon inside of a turn, and is easily fare under your system.

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

This doesn't mean that all "caps" are bad. But trying to have a single "master formula" that balances everything has never worked, in my experience.

I agree. It is obviouse from the fact that you've all found holes in methods, that using a "rule of X" is just as much work for the GM as just looking at the character and saying"does that realy need to be that high?" I personally would never put that much enphisis on a rule. If it makes sense and isn't too powerful, it's good. If during the game you find that it actually is to powerful and disrupts game ballance, then have the player change it. NEVER let a player play a character you haven't looked at. That's the "rule" we use.

[Keneton]

CL

My system does work. I am not belittling others to get rid of systems, nor does my system replace common sense and a good GM, but it has survived playtesting and publication to work well.

The main reason we developed the ER was to allow for multiple GM's. In our group all of the players are over 30 years old with REAL lives. We need to share GM responsibility. I am the main GM, but others often write games. We need a system that makes play balanced with multiple GM's without being arbitrary.

Even Marvel had the bullpen for years, and the result was a more balanced power level than found in silver age DC.
:)

[GradonSilverton]

Kenton said "How could you have that 90 point power you gave as an example if the active point cost was limited to 35!?

6d6 AP Ego attack = 90 active!
How could they go desolid (40 active minimum?) or have full life support (45)

Who wants a chracter that has a max attack of 7d6 normal?"

I realized after my posting the I did not clarify this correctly... If you want to allow for Desolid, Life Support, Ect. put the Max for that Amount. If you want someone to Posses the 90 power, then your Max is 90 Active points. What I'm saying is utilize what Hero already has to create your Rule of X.

Dont bring in more math and make character creation even more drawn out. Use whats there for you.

[Keneton]

Even limiting active points is not enough. High CV's and Speed combined with small hand kills equal quick KO's. The ER is a balanced system that evaluates several factors. Other systems exist such as AD's metaverse sytem and the old school Combat Rating from AC#1. Ours is just a very effective version of one.

I am also not suggesting adding this to character creation. Nearly all starting 350 superheroes are between 70 and 95 in the ER anyways.

:)

[GradonSilverton]

My point on the Xtra math in the creation process is that the ideals behind rule of X is that no powers, defense, ect can excede X. Thus, while creating you have to preform Math outside of the character to make sure you are not violating X.

If one insistes on using a formule, I have seen that having a Rule of X for Offense and a different one for Defense is nearly essential. Its hard to have a target number from a formule that says Offensive can be X while Defense can be the same X and remained balanced....

That is actually one reason why I'm not totally against your idea...but not utilizing speed in both is a mistake...I can Use my speed as offensive and defensive...

Looking at your example and using the 28d6 attack as my number...your gouy would average 98 on his Move through...using his own defense....thats 68 stun through the Armor/PD....not to mention the amount of BODY on a 28d6 roll... instant end of combat.

[Discordian]

Originally posted by Keneton
Sounding like Aaron Nimzovitch there for a sec!

Please see DH#3 for The Effectiveness Rating. This is a 12 years playtested system that has evolved to rate and control campaigns in numerous states and with extremely varying power levels. It has yet to fail!


Since starting that discussion over at Pyramid (yep, that was me) I've found the ER spread sheet over here, but it's rather, er, cryptic, in parts. Is there a description on how to use it available?

/Anders

[Keneton]

The entire article explaining the math, the fields, and the logic behind it is found in DH#3.

If you have any questions I will answer via e-mail.

Otherwise, just enter the number requested in the field and it will automatically calculate your ER.


:) Good Luck

[JSenecal]

Here's a system we used for a while, where X is equal between offense and defense:

Offensive X = Active points in attact + 5 * OCV
Defensive X = 5 * DCV + PD + ED + STUN/2 + REC/4

Limitations of this formula is that it doesn't take into account SPD, nor powers and abilities that boost combat effectiveness such as find weakness, darkness, or invisibility. Damage reduction is handled by increasing STUN & REC in the formula.

We figured that a normal super would be 100 in both defense and offense. For our game we wanted low powered supers, so we were using 80 offense and 100 defense.

[tesuji]

I dont use rule of X but instead look at various metrics...

Against what DCVs will they have 75% chance of a hit (only missing on 13+)?

Against what DCVs will they have 75% chance of a miss ( missing on 9+)?

Lather rinse repeat for OCVs and generally wanting no answers to be more than 25%.

What is their stun number (damage which will con stun them on a single shot) and how frequent is that amoung my villains?

What is the KO number (same as above but unconscious) and how frequent is it amoung my villais?

Lather, rinse repeat for PC attacks looking for no number over 10%.

IMO the olde adage of trading off OCV vs HITDIE is really not as valid a metric anymore because there are so many ways to reduce enemy DCV for a brief period. Sure the 4 ocv 18d6 move thru might seem plausible in a 12d6 10 ocv world, but after the first 3d6 entangle "entangle and target take damage" is timed to go off right before the move thru, this "trade off" becomes much less significant. Cvs vary a lot more widely than they used to in combat. As such i tend to balance the crunch level a lot more than i worry with the CV.

[Keneton]

These are also solved by the ER.

:D

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Keneton
So the strength 60 = 60 active points, but what if he has 50" of movement and +10 levels with move through and can crank out a 28d6 movethough at the same 8 OCV. Your formula leaves a HUGE hole. I am not trying to sound critical, but you leave open all types of things like find weakness, movement, fast draw, desolidification, and damage shileds to name a few.

Also lets be very reasonale and imagine that the sytem could allow for a 250 Offensive and a 150 Defensive. For the offensive I take. . .

20 OCV, 8 Speed, 4 1/2d6 HKA (which I can easily push to crank out 5+1 Killing!)
My DCV Max is also 20 with 18 Defense Both ways and 14 points of exotic defenses covering flash, mental and resistant 10/10.

This character would grease Mechanon inside of a turn, and is easily fare under your system.

You are not looking at this with the correct line of thinking these things are always limited by common sense. Any body reguardless of the system can create abuse. lets look at the 60 active point thing

1d6-1 RKA: avld, Lack of Weakness +1 1/2; Does Body +1/2; Auto Fire +1/2; 0-end +1. here is an attack that will hurt any being under the sun even Doctor D. (Can you think of any printed character with Resistent Lack of Weakness)

Any rule of X should be a guideline with common sense kicking in when looking at abusive charcters.

I did not say my system was perfect just that it has never failed me.

[Keneton]

Lack of weakness is never resistant or non resistant. You take lack to cover normal or resitant defenses, that is why no one has it. You do not buy DR and apply it to you lack or place lack in a force field.

The point of my argument is to build a sytem that defies abuse. We have!

Read it before you critique it. Your mentioned attack is illegal becuse no such defense exist, but lets say it was vs. regular lack. Doc D has -10 so it bounces. In fact most of my PC's have at least 5 points of lack. Yeah I'll take 10 or 11 total Stun, so what?

A straight 4d6 kill is far more threatening than this google attack.

My post was just pointing out that this other rule of X sytem did not limit the characters at all. In fact it allowed an ungodly OCV DCV Character to be created. Please re-read the post for the second example.

[Keneton]

I am following up my prior post to explain why this means something to me. I apologize if my post have seemed snoty or haughty. I truely am only attempting to help.

Game balance is one of the chief weaknesses of point based systems. You gain flexibility over level based sytems, but you give up control. We have endeavored to developed a system that is not arbitrary to make up for this weakness while retaining the inherint strength of unrestricted character design.

Rules of X that restrict OCV, DCV, Damage etc... generally lead to chracters that are efficeint copy cats. It becomes clear that CV overshadows damage in most cases and that Speed is a good buy. Also these sytems never seem to resrict high cons, efficent recoveries, aids, and perception which are all so important in combat.

Arpad Elo invented the Elo rating for Chess and the Slope for Golf. These are mathematical ratings of ability and difficulty. Our ER was designed to do the same for Champions and do it accurately.

The tool is not just useful to stop abuse, because as noted abuse takes many subtle forms. It is used to develope challenging encounters ny matching villains ER's vs. Charcters and allow for fun tactical combats, noy lopsided routes.

JSenecal made a post about his method. This makes sense to me, but in my mind is too restrictive. Ex:

The 100 rating for supers offensively would not allow for even a weak brick.

50 Strength Brick with an 18 Dex and 2 levels with HTH (Come On. . . this is like Bulldozer!)

Haymaker OCV=6+2=8
Haymaker Active=70

Add to J's formula. . .
70+(8*5)=110.

Now lets see a martial artist like say Cheshire Cat. Certainly none says he's a powerhouse.

We will rate his Defensive Strike (even though this is a weak maneuver for him. His base OCV is 8 +1 for the maneuver, +2 HTH = 11. This counts as 55 for J's formula.

His damage is 8d6 (40 Active) + Hand Attack (20 Active)= 60
55+60=105. Even Cheshire Cat is too tough for this campaign.

No offense, J but even starting guys like the Champions dont work under this rule of X unless I am missing something.

[JSenecal]

No offense, J but even starting guys like the Champions dont work under this rule of X unless I am missing something.
No offense taken.

Simple formulas like the one my group used, and a complex formula like you use serve two seperate purposes. For maintaining balance with thousands of XP, a complex formula like yours is needed. But that isn't the purpose of simple formulas like mine. Rather those are simply a formulitic way of expressing the general idea that the more agile a character is, the weaker that characters attacks and defenses are.

Simple formulas just express the trade offs, for example that 5 points of attack equals 1 OCV, or that 1 DCV equals 5 points of PD or ED, 10 points of stun or 20 points of recovery.

Are such simple formulas perfect or sufficent for the long run? No, of course not. All they are good for is to codify what factors the GM feels are most important, and how they relate to each other. For a group whose games rarely last much past 100 XP, and never to 200 XP, we don't need such a comprehsive formula as your long lasting games do.

As for the Champions not fitting in the 100 limit, my group tends to run low powered heroes. For us, a 60 point attack with an 8 OCV is high, most characters with a 12d6 attack have only a 7 OCV (or less). And Haymakers and move-throughs are counted, since our groups uses those manuvers very rarely. In fact, none of our characters reached the limit. And the one character with darkness (not covered by the formula) had even lower defenses to compensate. With good players, a rule of X isn't a limit, but a guide line so that they don't make characters that are too far from the norm.

As with any rule of X, the X needs to be set to match the desired power level. Pehaps 110 would be better for most groups.

[Keneton]

J

Good point. I agree that for lower point totals this makes a lot of sense. The ER is also designed with multiple GM's involved (not that this is necessary).

Also at lower power levels I'd make another suggestion.

Do limit active points.
Do make a CV Cap.

The ratio of effectiveness is a s follows. 1 CV= 1DC= 1/3 SPD = 5 Stun = 10 other Defense = 3 normal Defense = 5" movement

Keeping these things in mind the rest of the rating makes itself clear.

Your idea about keeping offense and defense seperate is very good. We tried to do this with the ER but never got the tweaks out. Good luck to you and thanks for seeing my post for what they are. You are a good sport.
:D

[JSenecal]

Your idea about keeping offense and defense separate is very good

It keeps characters with balanced attacks and defenses. It's most helpful for those new to the game so that they can make balanced characters. On the other hand, characters who are unbalanced can be fun as well (High attack, but glass jaw, or very hard to hit, but can't do much damage). A combined rule of X allows for these. But even with a separate rule of X for offense and defense such characters are still possible if the GM uses the rule of X as a guideline instead of an absolute limit.

The ratio of effectiveness is a s follows. 1 CV= 1DC= 1/3 SPD = 5 Stun = 10 other Defense = 3 normal Defense = 5" movement

So for a custom simple rule of X for your game, pick the factors above you want to consider for Offensive, Defensive, or Combined. Use the values you consider typical for your game, and use the resulting value as the rule of X for your game. Keep in mind that CV usually counts twice (as OCV and DCV). And when ambiguities arise, use common sense to resolve them. And finally, keep in mind the limitations of a simple formula, and look for powers or combinations that could cause problems.

On a different note, can the effectiveness rating be used to balance power levels between a group and a single, more powerful villian? If so, can you give advice as to how?

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Keneton
Sounding like Aaron Nimzovitch there for a sec!

Please see DH#3 for The Effectiveness Rating. This is a 12 years playtested system that has evolved to rate and control campaigns in numerous states and with extremely varying power levels. It has yet to fail!

We use a cap of 100 for player characters on the ER. The Spreadsheet is availlable for free in the Fee Stuff section of this board. The URL is given below.

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/FreeStuff/csheets.htm

I accept e-mails from players with ER questions and try to be quick on responses. If you have a chance to read the article, you will find the mechanics sound.

I am not stating that this sytem replaces a proactive GM, but I ma saying that this tool makes GM rulings sound and fair from a mathmatical standpoint and not arbitrary.

Anyone who knows me will attest to the soundness of my approach and I highly reccomend it.
;)

Is this a system that has a copy rite or is there a way to review it without DH#3?

I ask because I niether have nor can I aford a DH subscription.

[BNakagawa]

Any system that rates SPD in a linear fashion is flawed.

SPD is clearly a multiplier to everything else your character can do.

[Keneton]

How would you rate it (exponentially?). Have you read the system or are you just making a random comment? I always accept constructive criticism, but a little explanation is in order before you attack an idea.

I am guessing that you mean that Speed should be multiplied by attck OCV and DC for instance. This was considered, but was not shown to be accurate.

Remember we have been working on this for 12 years.
;)

I am glad to answer questions and comments concerning how or why the formula evolved in this manner.

[Keneton]

Concerning the question about ER and play balance. . .

Generally a 10 ER advantage requires two chracters to compensate. A 110 Villain can generally fight two 100 ER heroes. This is not exponential like Strength so the numbers are added for each 10, so to fight 4 heroes requires +20 ER and to fight 6 is +30. After this the sytem tends to break down as numbers over 6 are hard to compensate for in Champions when Heroes can spoil attacks with Trget Falls maneuvers, throw, missile deflection, and area powers.

:)

[BNakagawa]

My non-linear system for reflecting the importance of SPD is very simple.

The GM defines a punching bag-bot with a DCV, PD, ED (assume it's all resistant) and Stun. These values should reflect the average values for a standard 1v1 opponent.

Calculate how many seconds it takes for you to knock one of these things out. Assume average results on die rolls.

Double the SPD, half the time required. Non-linear.

[Discordian]

Originally posted by Ndreare
Is this a system that has a copy rite or is there a way to review it without DH#3?

That was going to be my next question. :)

[Keneton]

Regarding copyright:

I may be a rules lawyer but not a real lawyer! :D

When I wrote the article for DH I signed a contract making the work the property of DOJ. I ma not sure that it is official or copyrighted, but It is their property. They give aways wbout half of DH every month, but mine was not a free stuff item. The spreadsheet although is, and as I stated earlier I will answer questions and provide help vs e-mail. I have done this for over a dozen of people on these boards and will be glad to assist anyone else that asks.

Regarding The Punching Bag Rating System:

Well, rating how fast someone knocks someone out vs. how tuff they really are is not accurate. Let me explain in detail. .

The most pwerful 120 ER charcter we ever had was Bloodfire. he was a martial srtist charcter and his top base namage was around DC 12. He could "switch: OCV, DCV, and DC to an extreme variant and was never knocked out to my knowledge. For example he could fight at a 32 DCV and a 9 Speed, using Teleport, Full Move Manevers and Tunnelling to avoid ever being hit.

This guy would take some time in KO ing a big defense punching bag, but the is no one could even hurt this guy!

My 120 Keneton had big damge, good OCV and good defenses. He was tuff all around but would have a 1-100 chance of beating Bloodfire. he brougth about a huge change from CR (see AC#1) to ER.

The method you describe does make sense, but does not work, especially in FRED. . .

Imagine how much Sweep, Multipower ower Attacks, and Autofire Attacks would add to your rating. How about attacks that ignored the punching bags defenses? Would they rate higher just becuse they were better at KOing a punching bag? In practice such attacks are very inefficient. I would take a 15d6EB over a 10d6 Autofire (5) EB any day of the week, yet they rate the same. Under your sytem the autofire EB would rate far higher as the robot punching bag is going toget KO'd faster by this attack.

These are my thoughts on this matter.

RE: Rating Speed

We have found that 3 OCV or DCV or 3 DC is the equivelent of 1 SPD. Speed advantages greater than two tend to be very imbalancing, but when less than 2 are not unbalancing at all. Speed efficiany has 3 major breaking points 5,6, and 8. These are buy far the three most efficient Speeds.

Most Fights are decided aerly and the following factors help decide my advice.

My ER limit is 100, so Speeds over 10 become very ineffective.
--A speed of 5 acts twice before the midpoint of a fight, but then tracks a six SPD thoughout the balance. This makes a 5 a good SPD for characters with decent defenses that survive a high Speed Rush, or characters that hav good powers toabourt to like Desol. To test me. . .Make Blackstar from CKC a 5 instead of a 4 and see how much tuffer he gets!
--A speed of 6 goes three times Early and 3 times late. A 7 has nearly no advantage agianst a 6 in the deciding early phases as for 4 straight phases they track each other (12,2,4,and 6)
A 6 is not overly ER expensive and is conceptual for more Fast Supers!
--The 8 Speed is deevestating as it is the lowest high speed to take advantage of of multiple early turn advantages over lower speeds. For example 8 vs. 6. (6=2,4,6 or 3 phases in firsty half turn). (8=2,3,5,6) or 4 phases in early half turn. The advantage is devestating especially if combined with a higher order of action (Dex or Lightning reflexes). The setup phase is held to set up the finishing attack. . .Hold 2nd until 6 speed commits and martial throw hime. Rapid attack sweep him on the ground in 3rd to finish hime early. if 6 aborts 4th I have 2 more attempts to crank him out before he goes again!

These are my thoughts! Good luck to all of you.
:)

[Trebuchet]

I run a 9 SPD character, and 9 is also an awesome SPD to beat on lower SPD characters. Assuming proportional DEX:SPD ratios (i.e., characters with higher SPDs typically have correspondingly higher DEX as well), against a SPD 2 Normal a 9 SPD will have acted 4 times before the SPD 2 even gets to act. Against characters with 3, 4, 5, and 6 SPD (Easily 98% of HERO characters fall into these 4 SPDs) a 9 SPD acts in every single segment they do plus several others. That allows Blocks if necessary and still leaves available free segments to attack. Against a 7 SPD a 9 acts in the same segments until Segment 9, by which time the 9 SPD will already have acted 6 times to the 7 SPDs 5 times.

I think Keneton is correct in that 8 is a more "efficient" SPD, but 9 does have it's attractions. :D

[JamesG]

Forgive the major snippage....

Originally posted by Keneton


The most pwerful 120 ER charcter we ever had was Bloodfire.

My 120 Keneton had big damge, good OCV and good defenses. He was tuff all around but would have a 1-100 chance of beating Bloodfire. he brougth about a huge change from CR (see AC#1) to ER.



Am I reading this right? Both Bloodfire and Keneton had an ER of 120, but Bloodfire would win 99 out of 100 times if they fought? That doesn't make the ER system sound very effective in balancing characters, unless Bloodfire was optimized to beat characters such as Keneton.

Or was Keneton a 120 on the "CR" scale?
Color me confused :confused:

[nblade]

Originally posted by Chaosliege
NEVER let a player play a character you haven't looked at. That's the "rule" we use.

Ah the Golden Rule of ANY (and I do mean ANY) game system. I couldn't agree with you more. No matter what Rule of X you like or prefer, its still up to the GM to look over the character and see if anything just doesn't click with his vision of the game. I've had players look at me funny when I told them I wasn't going to allow them to have certain combinations of powers and/or advantages, because although logical tended to be to advantageous to the player and would unbalance the game. Luckily, most players are reasonible in our group. We tend to show unreasonible players who have joined our group the door in short order.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by nblade
Ah the Golden Rule of ANY (and I do mean ANY) game system. I couldn't agree with you more. No matter what Rule of X you like or prefer, its still up to the GM to look over the character and see if anything just doesn't click with his vision of the game. I've had players look at me funny when I told them I wasn't going to allow them to have certain combinations of powers and/or advantages, because although logical tended to be to advantageous to the player and would unbalance the game. Luckily, most players are reasonible in our group. We tend to show unreasonible players who have joined our group the door in short order.

This or course presumes that the GM in question is savvy enough to counter any and all players in their game.

For the novice GM, at least, some sort of guideline provides a safety net so that they have access to insight that generally takes years to accumulate.

[Keneton]

Regarding Bloodfire vs, Keneton. . .

Yes this was one of the reasons we switched from CR (version 3) to ER. The changes went. . . .

CR v1 (SEE AC #1)
CR v2 (redifined switching and counted all defenses at once as opposed to old method thet rated per phase)
CRv3 (Introduced CCRL Camapaign Combat Rating Limitations or means of reducing the CR by limiting the character in some way.)
ER (Present Version)

On the ER Bloodfire would have rated around 200 while that Keneton would likely rate around 147. The ER would have easily predicted the one sided victory.

Now two characters can have the same ER and the fight not be completely even. For example Armadillo would likely not beat Psimon even though their ER's are not to different. Armadillo has a x2 Stun From Mental Attacks vulnerability. This makes this particular fight over before it starts.

Another thing that modify;'s the ER is the Veteran Bonus. Shade has a 100 ER in her present version. She is about 2300 points. She has a Veteran bonus of 19. Therefore before this modifier her actual ER is 119.

Keneton (low end version) is a 119.3 I will attach him below.

[Keneton]

<font size=+1><b>Keneton</b></font>

Player: Bob Pennington

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><font size=2><b>Val  </b></font></td><td><font size=2><b>Char   </b></font></td><td><font size=2><b>Cost</b></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>60  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>STR</b></font></td><td><font size=2>50</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>28  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>DEX</b></font></td><td><font size=2>54</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>40  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>CON</b></font></td><td><font size=2>60</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>17  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>BODY</b></font></td><td><font size=2>14</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>18  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>INT</b></font></td><td><font size=2>8</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>15  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>EGO</b></font></td><td><font size=2>10</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>30  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>PRE</b></font></td><td><font size=2>20</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>24  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>COM</b></font></td><td><font size=2>7</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2></font></td><td><font size=2> </font></td><td><font size=2></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>30  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>PD</b></font></td><td><font size=2>8</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>30  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>ED</b></font></td><td><font size=2>12</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>6  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>SPD</b></font></td><td><font size=2>22</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>20  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>REC</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>80  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>END</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>65  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>STUN</b></font></td><td><font size=2>-2</font></td></tr><td><font size=2></font></td><td><font size=2> </font></td><td><font size=2></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10"  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>RUN</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>2"  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>SWIM</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>12"  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>LEAP</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr></table><b>Characteristics Cost:</b> 263

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">20  </td><td><b><i>Hard Training: </i></b>(Total: 20 Active Cost, 20 Real Cost) Lack Of Weakness (-5) for Normal Defense (Real Cost: 5) <b>plus</b> +0 STR, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (15 Active Points) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic) (added to Primary Value) (Real Cost: 15) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">13  </td><td><b><i>Fast: </i></b>Running +4", Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (13 Active Points) (added to Primary Value) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">68  </td><td><b><i>Kinetic Energy Enfused Body: </i></b>(Total: 68 Active Cost, 68 Real Cost) Armor (10 PD / 10 ED), Hardened (+1/4), Inherent (+1/4) (45 Active Points) (added to Primary Value) (Real Cost: 45) <b>plus</b> Damage Resistance (10 PD / 10 ED) (Real Cost: 10) <b>plus</b> Life Support (Longevity: 200 Years, Safe in High Pressure, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum) (Real Cost: 8) <b>plus</b> Power Defense (5 points) (Real Cost: 5) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">36  </td><td><b><i>Kinetic Energy Absorption: </i></b>(Total: 42 Active Cost, 36 Real Cost) Absorption 3d6 (max. Absorbed Points: 20): Energy into END (16 Active Points); Limited Phenomena (-1/4) (Real Cost: 13) <b>plus</b> Absorption 3d6 (max. Absorbed Points: 20): Physical (16 Active Points); Limited Phenomena (-1/4) (Real Cost: 13) <b>plus</b> Knockback Resistance -5" (Real Cost: 10) [<b>Notes:</b> Attacks that have kinetic energy.] </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">45  </td><td><b><i>Kinetic Energy Sense: </i></b>Detect A Large Class Of Things 13- (Analyze, Discriminatory, Increased Arc of Perception: 360-Degree, Range, Sense, Targeting Sense, Telescopic (+3)) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10  </td><td><b><i>Neural Dampners (Implanted in Skull by PRIMUS): </i></b>(Total: 10 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) +7 Mental Defense (10 points total) (Real Cost: 7) <b>plus</b> Damage Resistance ( / 6 Mental Def.) (Real Cost: 3) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">80  </td><td><b><i>Power Blast: </i></b>Energy Blast 16d6 (vs. PD) </td><td valign="top" align="right">8</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">79  </td><td><b><i>Power Flight: </i></b>Flight 15" (Improved Noncombat Movement (x8), Position Shift), Rapid Noncombat Movement (+1/4), Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (79 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">20  </td><td><b><i>Slow Field: </i></b>Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Visible (-1/4), Limited Power (Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness; -1/4) [<b>Notes:</b> Only vs. physical attacks that have kinetic energy] </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table><b>Powers Cost:</b> 371

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Martial Arts Maneuver</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Crush: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, STR +4d6 Crush, Must Follow Grab </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Fast Strike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +0 DCV, STR +2d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Flying Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Flying Grab: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, +10 STR for holding on; FMove </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR vs. Grabs </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Martial Grab: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, +10 STR for holding on </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, STR +2d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Martial Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, STR +v/5, Target Falls </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Offensive Strike: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, STR +4d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Sacrifice Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, STR +4d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Sacrifice Throw: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +1 DCV, STR Strike; You Fall, Target Falls </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR to Shove </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Takeaway: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab Weapon, +10 STR to take weapon away </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Takedown: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, STR Strike; Target Falls </td></tr></table><b>Martial Arts Cost:</b> 65

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Skill</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Acrobatics 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Breakfall 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Computer Programming 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Concealment 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Conversation 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Cryptography 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Deduction 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Defense Maneuver: I-IV  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Navigation (Air, Land) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Oratory 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Paramedics 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>PS: Martial Arts Instruction (INT-based) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>PS: PRIMUS Paranormal Support (INT-based) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Rapid Attack (Ranged)  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Rapid Attack (HTH)  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Seduction 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Security Systems 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Shadowing 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Stealth 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Streetwise 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Systems Operation 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Tactics 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Teamwork 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranged)  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Two-Weapon Fighting (HTH)  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">32  </td><td>+4 with All Combat </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>+2 Overall </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Linguist </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>1) Language: Spanish: Fluent Conversation (2 Active Points)  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Scholar </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>1) KS: Criminal Law (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>2) KS: Martial Arts World (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>3) KS: Mystic World (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>4) KS: Paranormals (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>5) KS: PRIMUS (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>6) KS: VIPER (2 Active Points) 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Traveler </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>1) AK: Stonghold (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>2) AK: Miami (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>3) AK: New York City (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>4) AK: Millennium City (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- </td></tr></table><b>Skills Cost: </b>181

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Perk</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Fringe Benefit (Federal/National Police Powers) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">12  </td><td>Contact: Ares Bryson of PRIMUS (14-) (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact has: extremely useful Skills or resources, Very Good relationship with Contact) </td></tr></table><b>Perks Cost:</b> 15

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Talent</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">9  </td><td>Ambidexterity (Eliminate Off Hand Penalty entirely) </td></tr></table><b>Talents Cost:</b> 9


<b>Total Character Cost:</b> 904

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Val  </b></td><td><b>Disadvantages</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Distinctive Features: Reads as Mutant, Not Concealable, Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction, Detectable Only By Unusual Senses </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Hunted: Deathstroke, As Powerful, 8- (Occasionally), Harshly Punish </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Hunted: The Institute for Human Advancement, Less Powerful, 8- (Occasionally), Harshly Punish, Extensive Non-Combat Influence </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Code of the Hero, Very Common, Strong </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Code vs. Killing, Common, Total </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Distrusts Mentalists, Common, Moderate </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Secret ID: Jared K. Bryson </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Social Limitation: Sudject to Orders (PRIMUS), Occasionally (8-), Major </td></tr></table>
<b>Disadvantage Points:</b> 105

<b>Base Points:</b> 200
<b>Experience Required:</b> 599
<b>Total Experience Available:</b> 610
<b>Experience Unspent:</b> 11

[JamesG]

Originally posted by Keneton
On the ER Bloodfire would have rated around 200 while that Keneton would likely rate around 147. The ER would have easily predicted the one sided victory.

Ah. Whew, I was worried there for a second, thinking the ER was totally cracked. As you may remember from another thread, I’ve been thinking of using your ER system. Thanks for all your fast responses to my email questions.

It’s going to be an uphill struggle to convince my fellow players to use it (I can hear the cries of “It’s too complicated!” already). Before I wage that battle there are a couple of concerns I have with the system I was wondering if you (and anyone else out there using it) might comment upon.

The first is it does not seem to give enough credit for versatility. For example, let’s consider two character’s, A and B. Char A has a 6d6 Area Effect (Cone) EB. Char B has a Multipower that contains a 12d6 EB, a 6d6 Area Effect (Cone) EB, a 6d6 NND EB and a 5d6, DEF 5 Entangle. Assume everything else about these characters is the same (at least from an ER standpoint, they could have different KSs for instance). Using the ER these characters would rate exactly the same. But it seems to me that Char B’s variety of attack options make him a more effective combatant. One fix for this I’ve thought of is adding a new item in the Capabilities section that adds one to the ER for each attack that is with say 10% of the Most Effective Attack. The attacks should be noticeably different to count for this, so having a dozen Martial Arts maneuvers that all rate about the same won’t inflate the ER.

The second is it gives too much credit to “gimmick” powers. One of my PC’s has a 60 Active Point Force Wall. The power is pretty heavily limited (only two continuing charges) and is really only for emergencies. If he uses it once every third session or so, they’d be a lot. But it boosts his ER by 12! That’s way too much when you consider the usefulness of the power. A possible solution here is for the GM to allow some of the Limitations on such a gimmick power to reduce the AP plugged into the ER calculations.

[Keneton]

The capabilities section attempts to clarify this but if you feel the need to add, a straight one for each additional attack is probably bettr. Adding % of total ER can run you into an accounting nightmare. In your example the one charcters ER wuld be one higher as this one has an area attack. Otherwise your example is great. I do understand the logic.

We have spoken about adjusting the ER for other reasons, but the capabilities have worked out fine so far.

On another note, I only rate heroes. Villains can have any ER that they want. There is an upside to rating both, you do get an idea about how challenging a fight will be!

[Keneton]

I forgot to address the Gimmick power thing. Well this has come up before. In one of our playtests we did not rate attacks that were less than 50% of The Most effctive attack. For example if you had a 60 Active point EB you did not have to rate a 2d6 RKA. This proved moot as rarely did it effect the ER anyways.

Ragrding Defences like Forcewall, rememeber the forcewall is in many ways an attack and a defense. This forcewll that adds 12 is by no menas little. It can stop an average martail artist cold! As a GM you can choose to ignore this rating, but what happens if the limitation is bought off, or if the limitation cahnges to say x10 End Cost!

Without making a hard and fast rule like rating active points, powers can really get out of hand. I do see your thought here.

This debate has definately come up on several accasions such as specialized Damage Redution. (Say for example 50% Resentant Energy DR, Fire Only (-1)) Should this count as 6 on the ER. Is this as good as 3 CV or 2 Speed? Well of course its not as good, but it was the players choice, just like the good levelsor the cheap ones.

The ER not only controls efficiency, it urges efficiency on without being restrictive to conception.

I am enjoying your well thought out questions.
:D

[JamesG]

Minor nit-pick, both characters in my example had the area effect EB, so neither was one ER point higher than the other.

I figured the capabilities section of the ER spreadsheet was created to address the issue of versatility, but it misses the mark because it doesn’t have enough capabilities listed. And listing all of the major attack types available causes other problems. For example, if you just added NND attacks to the capabilities section, then a character with a 6d6 NND EB would rate one ER point higher that one with a 12d6 EB. That’s a problem because both attacks are equivalent and should rate the same. The problem with the current system is a character with BOTH a 6d6 NND EB AND a 12d6 EB rates that same as a character with just one of the two.

Let me revise my solution. Take the Max ER, divide by 10, then divide by 2 rounding up, and call this the Multiple Attack Factor (MAF). So for a 100 ER supers game, the MAF is 5, and for a 70 ER Fantasy Hero game MAF is 4. For each additional attack that a character has that is within the MAF (measured in ER points) of the character’s Most Effective Attack, add one to the ER. The additional attacks must be significantly different for this purpose; GM’s call on what “significantly different” entails. So going back to my example, Char B would be 3 ER higher than Char A.

Now on to the “gimmick power” debate.

Originally posted by Keneton
Ragrding Defences like Forcewall, rememeber the forcewall is in many ways an attack and a defense. This forcewll that adds 12 is by no menas little. It can stop an average martail artist cold!

I should’ve elaborated more. The Force Wall I was using as an example was a power granted by an enchanted sword and had no range and was “fixed” to the sword (so if the sword moved the FW did). So its ability to be used as an attack was limited. The PC could englobe an adjacent opponent, but he would then have to stand there and couldn’t use the sword to do anything else. So basically he would be taking himself out of the combat as well while the FW was up.

Keep in mind that a character of ER+10 should be able to, on average, take on two characters of ER. The FW added 12 ER to the PC. He certainly could not take on two duplicates of himself that lacked the FW.

As a GM you can choose to ignore this rating, but what happens if the limitation is bought off, or if the limitation cahnges to say x10 End Cost!


Obviously if the limitations are bought off or changed so that the power is no longer as limited, then it would then have greater impact on increasing the ER. The same way that buying more CSLs with your Most Effective Attack will raise your ER.

Also, by not giving a discount to “gimmick” powers, the ER system discourages the use of ‘Limited-Use Powers’ as described in the Champions book, page 132.


Well of course its not as good, but it was the players choice…


I’m sorry, but that strikes me as a cop out. It’s basically saying to players “Don’t choose to have any gimmick powers, or your ER will be inflated beyond its true measure.” I think gimmick powers add quite a bit to the game, and discouraging them is a bad thing.

Unfortunately, my proposed fix, discounting gimmick powers based on their most limiting factors, adds more GM “judgment calls". Oh well, whoever said a GM’s job is easy. For my Force Wall example, I’d say the continuing charges limitation (-1) and the no range (-1/2) would count as limitations for ER purposes but OAF would not. So instead of 60 AP of Force Wall being plugged into the ER calculation, 24 AP would. This would raise the ER by 4.8 instead of 12. Probably still a little more than it’s really worth, but it now seems reasonable to me.

For your “50% Resistant Energy DR, Fire Only (-1)” example I’d say that limitation should count in the ER, so the power would only increase ER by 3 instead of 6.

I am enjoying your well thought out questions.

I too am enjoying the discussion, but fear we may have killed the thread for anybody else…
:(

[Keneton]

Understand that the ER was originally designed in a cmapign with very high point characters so the "choice" ideology I described was valid in that campaign. I agree that in some instances certain powers Rate high, but are not as effectice given limitations. As a GM you can choose to rate this more accurately by applying the discount as noted in your response like 3 for the Fire DR. I consider this OK and in many cases more accurate than the strict ER.

I also agree that you solution to the multiple attacks has merit. Let me first explain exactly why we moved away from multiple attacks as a rated ability or versatility.

1. We did not want all 100 ER's to be excatly alike. A fully fleshed 100 ER with many attack forms is a reward for having more earned EP and not a direct litmus test of power. It is a toll for measuremnet, but certainly not a certain metric. Is istrelatively accurate (yes), Completely so (no).

2. We have found that the strait attacks are generally far more powerful than attacks with one adavantage. Stacked advantages on the other hand can be dangerous. I give a possible adjustment in the DH article for the same.

3. We highlighted combos of powers that seem to causea disparity in the ER such as Indirect attacks and Indirect Targeting Sense, Reflect any attack, and Transform into anything. If you feel that multiple attacks or a framework warrant such, please adjust, but over time we found this not to be the case as reagrdless of type of attck we have already rated all appropriate defense, and non areas still need to hit with CV being the largest single factor in the ER.

Regarding your propose system change: As above your idea is very good. I will attempt to playtest it. I would also like to point out that not having many different attacks may just earn you a package bonus! (see DH#3 for the explanation). If this is not enough rate power frameworks with more than 1 attack power as +1 under capabilities. This should be more than adequate to make things balanced without disturbing the ideas given under point #1 above.

Regarding my earlier response: I should have read more closely about the area. I have been helping with the new baby (my wife and I had a baby boy on the 21st!)

Regarding Killing the Thread: People squash my threads all of the time. We have been quite germine to the subject. I hope other join in! Here is a point to consider, how do other GM's legislate or limit CV's?
:D

[Keneton]

Mitch has posted Shade before, so I'm sure he wont mind. This is a fully fleshed 100 ER tweked to the hilt! Note she has a huge veteran bonus and so fights more like a 116 ER. She started a long time ago and really did earn all of this EP.

Sorry if this takes up a whole page!

<font size=+1><b>SHADE</b></font>

Player: WMR

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><font size=2><b>Val  </b></font></td><td><font size=2><b>Char   </b></font></td><td><font size=2><b>Cost</b></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>40/55  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>STR</b></font></td><td><font size=2>30</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>24  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>DEX</b></font></td><td><font size=2>42</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>30  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>CON</b></font></td><td><font size=2>40</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>15  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>BODY</b></font></td><td><font size=2>10</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>28  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>INT</b></font></td><td><font size=2>18</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>24  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>EGO</b></font></td><td><font size=2>28</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>30  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>PRE</b></font></td><td><font size=2>20</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>30  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>COM</b></font></td><td><font size=2>10</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2></font></td><td><font size=2> </font></td><td><font size=2></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>18  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>PD</b></font></td><td><font size=2>10</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>18  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>ED</b></font></td><td><font size=2>12</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>6  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>SPD</b></font></td><td><font size=2>26</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>14  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>REC</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>60  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>END</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>50  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>STUN</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><td><font size=2></font></td><td><font size=2> </font></td><td><font size=2></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>15"  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>RUN</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>5"  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>SWIM</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>8"/11"  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>LEAP</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr></table><b>Characteristics Cost:</b> 246

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">39  </td><td><b><i>Divine Magical Movement Powers: </i></b>Elemental Control, 78-point Powers </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">40  </td><td>1) <b><i>Air Mastery: </i></b>Flight 15" (Improved Noncombat Movement (x8), Position Shift), Usable Underwater (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (79 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">73  </td><td>2) <b><i>Shadow Step: </i></b>Teleportation 15" (No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, x2 Increased Mass), Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (112 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">660  </td><td><b><i>Divine Magical Power: </i></b>VPP (Magic Pool), 300 base + 360 control cost, Cosmic (+2) (750 Active Points); Limited Class Of Powers Available (Slightly Limited; -1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>1) <b><i>Deep Shadows: </i></b>Change Environment 8" radius (-4 PER Roll: Normal Sight), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (39 Active Points) Real Cost: 39 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>2) <b><i>Darkness Blast: </i></b>Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (112 Active Points) Real Cost: 112 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>3) <b><i>Numbing Darkness: </i></b>Energy Blast 7d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), No Normal Defense (Standard; +1) (87 Active Points) Real Cost: 87 [<b>Notes:</b> NND Defense: LS: Cold, Cold or Darkness Powers] </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>4) <b><i>Dark Force Bonds: </i></b>Entangle 7d6, 7 DEF (Stops A Given Sense: Normal Sight), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (112 Active Points) Real Cost: 112 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>5) <b><i>Destructive Darkness: </i></b>Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (plus STR) (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points) Real Cost: 45 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>6) <b><i>Silver Sword: </i></b>Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (plus STR) (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points) Real Cost: 45 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>7) <b><i>Dark Force Bolts: </i></b>Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), +1 Stun Multiplier (+1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (105 Active Points) Real Cost: 105 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>8) <b><i>Dark Force Bolt: </i></b>Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points) Real Cost: 94 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>9) <b><i>Magical Silver Shields: </i></b>Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Ranged (Adjacent Hex; +1/2) (30 Active Points) Real Cost: 30 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>10) <b><i>Instant Change: </i></b>Transform 2d6 (Cosmetic), Standard Effect (+0), Improved Target Group (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (17 Active Points); Limited Target: Clothes (Limited; -1/2) Real Cost: 11 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>11) <b><i>Slick Spell: </i></b>Change Environment 16" radius (-4 DEX Rolls and DEX Based Skills), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (65 Active Points); Only Effects Characters Along Surfaces (-1/4), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 43 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>12) <b><i>Confusion: </i></b>Change Environment 16" radius (-4 INT Rolls and INT Based Skills), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (65 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 52 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>13) <b><i>Warmth: </i></b>Change Environment 16" radius (4 Temperature Level Adjustment), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (51 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 41 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>14) <b><i>Chill: </i></b>Change Environment 16" radius (4 Temperature Level Adjustment), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (51 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 41 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>15) <b><i>Green Thumb: </i></b>Change Environment 4" radius (Long-Lasting: Permanent), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (52 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 42 [<b>Notes:</b> Makes Plants Happy and Healthy] </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>16) <b><i>Fog: </i></b>Change Environment 16" radius (-3 PER Roll: Sight Group), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (46 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 37 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>17) <b><i>Psychometry: </i></b>Clairsentience (Sight Group; Additional Sense: Normal Hearing, Retrocognition) (45 Active Points); Precognition/Retrocognition Only (-1), Time Modifiers (-1/2), Vague and Unclear (-1/2), Can only see events associated with an area she is in or an object she is touching (-1/2), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 12 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>18) <b><i>Eye of the Mind: </i></b>Clairsentience (Sight Group; Additional Sense Group: Hearing Group, Additional Sense: Detect Magic, x256 Range), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (112 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 64 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>19) <b><i>Spider Walking: </i></b>Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points); Cannot Resist Knockback (-1/4), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>20) <b><i>Cloak: </i></b>Darkness to Clairsentience 3" radius (Custom Adder), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (75 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 60 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>21) <b><i>Douse Magic: </i></b>Dispel 20d6: Magic, Expanded Effect (One At A Time; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (90 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 72 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>22) <b><i>Extinguish: </i></b>Dispel 11d6: Fire, Expanded Effect (One At A Time; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>23) <b><i>Banishment: </i></b>Dispel 25d6: Magical Summon, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>24) <b><i>Remove Curse: </i></b>Dispel 25d6: Magical Transform, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>25) <b><i>Destroy Wards of Protection: </i></b>Dispel 25d6: Magical Force Field, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Only vs. Magical Force Field (-1/2), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 54 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>26) <b><i>Touch of the Sandman: </i></b>Drain 7 1/2d6: STUN, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>27) <b><i>Touch of the Void: </i></b>Drain 7 1/2d6: DEX, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>28) <b><i>Temporal Globe: </i></b>Drain 7 1/2d6: SPD, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>29) <b><i>Touch of Destruction: </i></b>Drain 7 1/2d6: Body, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>30) <b><i>Touch of Weakness: </i></b>Drain 7 1/2d6: STR, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>31) <b><i>Ray of Enfeeblement: </i></b>Drain 5d6: STR, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>32) <b><i>Ray of Decay: </i></b>Drain 5d6: Body, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>33) <b><i>Slow: </i></b>Drain 5d6: DEX, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>34) <b><i>Ray of Dreams: </i></b>Drain 5d6: Stun, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>35) <b><i>Vertigo: </i></b>Drain 3d6: DEX, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Cone; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>36) <b><i>Cone of Weakness: </i></b>Drain 3d6: STR, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Cone; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>37) <b><i>Cone of Decay: </i></b>Drain 3d6: Body, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Cone; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>38) <b><i>Cone of Dreams: </i></b>Drain 3d6: Stun, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Cone; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>39) <b><i>Temporal Cone: </i></b>Drain 3d6: SPD, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Cone; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>40) <b><i>Rain of Weakness: </i></b>Drain 2d6: STR, Delayed Return Rate (5 Points per Minute; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (95 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 76 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>41) <b><i>Sleep Darts: </i></b>Drain 2d6: Stun, Delayed Return Rate (5 Points per Minute; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (95 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 76 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>42) <b><i>Rain of Lost Time: </i></b>Drain 2d6: SPD, Delayed Return Rate (5 Points per Minute; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (95 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 76 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>43) <b><i>Drunken Arrows: </i></b>Drain 2d6: DEX, Delayed Return Rate (5 Points per Minute; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (95 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 76 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>44) <b><i>Weaken Magic: </i></b>Drain 6d6: Magic Powers, Variable Effect (One Power At A Time; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (90 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 72 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>45) <b><i>Night's Rage: </i></b>Ego Attack 7 1/2d6 (Additional Class of Minds: Alien, Additional Class of Minds: Animals), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (119 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 95 </td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>46) <b><i>Pain: </i></b>Ego Attack 5d6 (Additional Class of Minds: Alien, Additional Class of Minds: Animal), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Penetrating (+1/2) (122 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 98 </td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>47) <b><i>Silver Light: </i></b>Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>48) <b><i>Flame Strike: </i></b>Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>49) <b><i>Earthen Ram: </i></b>Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>50) <b><i>Tsunami: </i></b>Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>51) <b><i>Hurricane Wind: </i></b>Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>52) <b><i>Bolt of Stunning: </i></b>Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED), Stun Only (+0), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>53) <b><i>Static Shock: </i></b>Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED), Stun Only (+0), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>54) <b><i>Dancing Spheres of Pain: </i></b>Energy Blast 12d6 (vs. ED), Stun Only (+0), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (135 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 108 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>55) <b><i>Power Spheres: </i></b>Energy Blast 12d6 (vs. ED), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (135 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 108 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>56) <b><i>Spirit Force: </i></b>Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Affects Desolidified (Any form of Desolidification; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>57) <b><i>Bolt of Ethereal Silver: </i></b>Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Indirect (Any origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>58) <b><i>Fire Burst: </i></b>Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Explosion (Normal (Radius) -1 DC/1"; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>59) <b><i>Tornado Winds: </i></b>Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Explosion (Normal (Radius) -1 DC/1"; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>60) <b><i>Mists of Morpheus: </i></b>Energy Blast 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), No Normal Defense (Standard; +1) (81 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 65 [<b>Notes:</b> NND Defense: LS: Reduced Sleep, or 30 or more CON] </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>61) <b><i>Psionic Storm: </i></b>Energy Blast 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense; +1) (81 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 65 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>62) <b><i>Numbing Cold: </i></b>Energy Blast 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), No Normal Defense (Standard; +1) (81 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 65 [<b>Notes:</b> NND Defense: LS: Cold, Cold or Fire Powers] </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>63) <b><i>For Whom the Bell Tolls: </i></b>Energy Blast 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), No Normal Defense (Standard; +1) (81 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 65 [<b>Notes:</b> NND Defense: Hearing Group Flash Defense, Deafness, Sonic Powers] </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>64) <b><i>True Sight: </i></b>Spatial Awareness (Discriminatory, Increased Arc of Perception: 360-Degree, Range) (37 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 30 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>65) <b><i>Light of Revelation: </i></b>(Total: 25 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost) Sight Group Images (10 Active Points); Only to Create Image of Demon's True Form (-1/2), Linked: Detect Demons to Air Mastery (-1/2), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) (Real Cost: 4) <b>plus</b> Detect: Demons A Class Of Things 15- (Discriminatory, Range) (15 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Costs END Every Phase; -1/2), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) (Real Cost: 8) Real Cost: 12 </td><td valign="top" align="right">2</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>66) <b><i>Mage Sight: </i></b>Telescopic +8 to PER Rolls (only to offset the Range Modifier) (Detect Magic) (8 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 6 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>67) <b><i>Eavesdrop: </i></b>Telescopic +8 to PER Rolls (only to offset the Range Modifier) (Hearing Group) (12 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>68) <b><i>Far Sight: </i></b>Telescopic +8 to PER Rolls (only to offset the Range Modifier) (Sight Group) (12 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>69) <b><i>Finding the True Path: </i></b>Bump of Direction (3 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 2 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>70) <b><i>Spirit Snare: </i></b>Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Affects Desolidified (Any form of Desolidification; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>71) <b><i>Mindlock: </i></b>Entangle 2d6, 2 DEF, Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks (All Attacks; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Sight Group, Hearing Group; +3/4), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense; +1) (75 Active Points); Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 50 </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>72) <b><i>Ward of Containment: </i></b>Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks (All Attacks; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 58 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>73) <b><i>Aura of Binding: </i></b>Entangle 1d6, 1 DEF, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (17 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 14 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>74) <b><i>Hands of Darkness: </i></b>Entangle 3d6, 3 DEF, Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks (All Attacks; +1/2), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (82 Active Points); Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 55 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>75) <b><i>Entrapment: </i></b>Entangle 6d6, 6 DEF, Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (90 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 72 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>76) <b><i>Plane Shift: </i></b>Extra-Dimensional Movement (Related Group of Dimensions, Any Location; x8 Increased Weight) (50 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12); -1 1/4), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 20 </td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>77) <b><i>Blilnding Silver: </i></b>Flash 15d6 (Sight Group), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>78) <b><i>Starburst: </i></b>Flash 10d6 (Sight Group), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Explosion (Normal (Radius) -1 DC/1"; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>79) <b><i>Flashbang: </i></b>Flash 9d6 (Sight Group; Additional Sense Group: Hearing Group), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Explosion (Normal (Radius) -1 DC/1"; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>80) <b><i>Mage Blind: </i></b>Flash 25d6 (Detect Magic), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>81) <b><i>Aura of Magical Blinding: </i></b>Flash 11d6 (Detect Magic), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>82) <b><i>Reverse Gravity: </i></b>Flight 10", Usable Underwater (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1) (80 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 64 [<b>Notes:</b> Usable As Attack Cancel: Flight Powers] </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>83) <b><i>Levitation: </i></b>Flight 1", Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (4 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 3 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>84) <b><i>Continual Light: </i></b>Sight Group Images, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>85) <b><i>Magical Picture Show: </i></b>Sight Group Images (Additional Sense Group: Hearing Group) (15 Active Points); Obviously an Image, Like watching small holograms (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>86) <b><i>Cloak of Darkness: </i></b>Sight Group Images, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Only to form Cloak of Darkness (-1), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>87) <b><i>Smoke and Flash: </i></b>Sight Group Images (Additional Sense: Normal Hearing), x2 Radius (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (23 Active Points); Only to Create Stage Magic Smoke and Flash Effects (-1), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>88) <b><i>Sunlight: </i></b>Sight Group Images (+4 to PER Roll), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), x16 Radius (+1) (55 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 24 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>89) <b><i>Blazing Sword: </i></b>Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (plus STR) (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 36 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>90) <b><i>Sword of Silver Light: </i></b>Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (plus STR) (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 36 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>91) <b><i>Lightning Bolt: </i></b>Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>92) <b><i>Flame Bolt: </i></b>Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>93) <b><i>Earthen Spike: </i></b>Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>94) <b><i>Chain Lightning: </i></b>Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (vs. ED), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (135 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 108 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>95) <b><i>Magic Missile: </i></b>Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (105 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 84 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>96) <b><i>Star Bolt: </i></b>Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6 +1 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Magic Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align=&