FH without Stun

[swobeas]

Hi!

How do you handle playing FH without using the Stun rules?
I want to do get rid of stun cause it slows fights down, especially with unexperienced players. The decision is fixed. But now I ask myself how to handle:
- BODY < 0 Do characters die reaching 0 BODY, or do they keep going until they reach their negative BODY value?
- if the are below 0 BODY do they get handicaps? (like 1/2 OCV, DCV and movement for example?)
- what about hits causing a lot of damage at once (like when using Stun the victim is stunned because getting too much stun with one hit?)

Would CON become a 1 pt characteristic then? Or could I use CON rolls every round for a character below 0 BODY, in order to keep going...:nonp:

thanks for input!:thumbup:

[Rapier]

Wow.

I would suggest going back to DnD. The STUN/BODY split is such an integral part of Hero that I think you may really want to play something else. Hero has been alive for so long that there are SO many dependencies that it is difficult to make changes to the underlying foundation (eg like getting rid of the SPD Chart).

I would make as few changes as possible if I were you. I would urge you not to do this, but hey, it's your game. Especially because there will be a number of attacks where "YOU HIT...and nothing happens, you dent his armour some" even more so than already happens now. There are MANY more easier ways to speed combat along. Most namely, there are a few websites out there that will preroll long lists of numbers and seperate out STUN and BODY.

--> Characters still go to -BODY before death.
--> There really shouldn't be any new handicaps to -BODY.
--> Perhaps -1 CV per 20% of total BODY inflicted by an attack (eg 10 BODY, -1 CV per 2 BODY inflicted).
--> Leave the price of CON alone.

Again, I urge you to rethink this. By removing STUN you have invalidated END use (there is no consequence to running out), NNDs (no more gas attacks), EGO Attacks (no more mind flayers, etc), a number of disads and limitations, you have added a level of complexity.

You are trying to remove an aspect of the game and then replace that aspect with a similar concept.

Perhaps:

1) Roll dice for BODY and Standard Effect STUN.
2) Roll dice for BODY and Standard Effect STUN +2 STUN for every '6' rolled.
3) Pregen dice rolls.
4) Standard Effect both BODY and STUN.

[Fitz]

I run my campaign without Stunning, but still with STUN -- when a character goes past 0 STUN they're knocked out, but they don't spend all their time trying to recover from being CON-Stunned.

It's not ideal; it definitely changes the way combats go and it invalidates a lot of useful tactics. I think it encourages a tendency towards the D&D charge-and-suck-it-up and stand-and-slug-and-suck-it-up tactics, but it does simplify combat a bit.

Personally, I'd like to bring Stunning back into play, but I don't know how my players are likely to react since they've become used to not having to worry about it now.

[Supreme Serpent]

Hi!

How do you handle playing FH without using the Stun rules?
I want to do get rid of stun cause it slows fights down, especially with unexperienced players. The decision is fixed. But now I ask myself how to handle:
- BODY < 0 Do characters die reaching 0 BODY, or do they keep going until they reach their negative BODY value?
- if the are below 0 BODY do they get handicaps? (like 1/2 OCV, DCV and movement for example?)
- what about hits causing a lot of damage at once (like when using Stun the victim is stunned because getting too much stun with one hit?)

Would CON become a 1 pt characteristic then? Or could I use CON rolls every round for a character below 0 BODY, in order to keep going...:nonp:

thanks for input!:thumbup:

Have them take a -1 to OCV/DCV and any skill rolls their next action for every point of Body they take. They can avoid this by taking a special talent called High Pain Threshold. Once they're at zero Body, they take Con rolls to see if they can stay up. Oh, wait, that's GURPS.

I too am a little confused...I don't really see how Stun is any more complicated than the proposed "fixes", and getting rid of it causes more problems. What do you do when someone WANTS to knock someone out? Beat them down to negative body and hope they survive? What about magical sleep effects? Removing a workable mechanic and then trying to recreate something which will get you similar outcomes seems...odd.

Good luck.

[swobeas]

I can follow your thoughts but still wonder about the message behind it.
I read about removing stun as one way to speed up combat in the FH-book and havn't thought so far, that removing it would change that much.

As for someone willingly knocking someone else out, I would use stun, but not in the standard "kill the minions" fight.
I want the combat to be quicker and deadlier, as with stun characters end up knocked out but not killed. This is a core concept of Hero imo and that's fine for most FH campaigns. But I want to play a Warhammer Campaign, including fate points and there should be chance to use these...

[sbarron]

Ok, I'll bite. There is no "official" way to not use stun. However, you could adopt some of the suggestions above to get things going.

I'd also suggest increasing the damage done for all weapons. With no threat of knockout (which is what happens rather than death to most armored characters in FH), ensuring that attacks that do hit actually do BODY damage is important. Probably 1 or 2 damage classes for each weapon would be enough without overdoing it.

This will better simulate the leathality of Warhammer, and speed combat as well. Hope this helps. :thumbup:

[Supreme Serpent]

Well, what do you find the main perpetrators are? If it's killing attack STUN mods, make them all 2x, ignore the die roll. If it's that you've got players running around with 6pts of Combat Luck in 8def armor getting attacked by 2d6 KAs, might want to limit the def available and/or increase the damage done, include more AP attacks, etc. If you find players don't like getting one-shot KOd (like by powerful normal die attacks, good stun mod) early on and then sitting out the rest of the fight, one of the solutions could be to give the PC's MORE Stun. An extra 30 Stun on a FH character will go a long ways to reducing the one-punch effect.

For "kill the minions" - yeah, disregarding tracking individual STUN pts probably good. Make them "one hit, two hit" type minions, or only track body, but if a huge STUN attack comes along, go ahead and drop them. But worrying about the individual STUN pts and recoveries of 40 goblins is ridiculous.

And if EVERYONE gets knocked out, vs most Fantasy opponents...they're not living long anyways. Having some PCs get knocked out and their fellows having to fight on without them, then rousing and tending to them after a hard-fought victory...what's so bad about that?

[swobeas]

I'd also suggest increasing the damage done for all weapons. With no threat of knockout (which is what happens rather than death to most armored characters in FH), ensuring that attacks that do hit actually do BODY damage is important. Probably 1 or 2 damage classes for each weapon would be enough without overdoing it.



I think with adding additional damage classes characters end up stunned faster but not necessarily (I hope this word is correct english :( ) dead.

But I have to admit that it would definately speed up combat ;-)

[Hugh Neilson]

Wow.

I would suggest going back to DnD.

Agreed and repp'ed. Many spells, for example, incapacitate rather than kill. D&D has rules for individual spells. Hero has game mechanics, so removal of STUN removes many of these spell effects.

Especially because there will be a number of attacks where "YOU HIT...and nothing happens, you dent his armour some" even more so than already happens now.

This will make more powerful opponents virtually invulnerable. Even Plate Mail (8 rDEF) becomes very difficult to hurt. It will also mean a lot more character generation, since the only way to take a character (PC or not) down is to reduce him to the point he's bleeding to death.

I also find "BOD only" poor at emulating the source material. How often is Conan (pick any other fantasy character) knocked out, but not killed? He seems fine after, so I don't think he was at negative Body, and in imminent danger of death.

How do you run a barroom brawl without Stun? You either keep fighting forever, or your opponent is fatally crushed.

If you want to increase lethality, I agree with sbarron - enhance the DC of weapons, and of spells for that matter, and reduce defenses, especially resistant defenses. Oh, and make sure there's a ready supply of blank character sheets around...

[sbarron]

I think with adding additional damage classes characters end up stunned faster but not necessarily (I hope this word is correct english :( ) dead.

But I have to admit that it would definately speed up combat ;-)Ah. I meant that if you intend to not use STUN, then you should up the damage classes. Clearly doing more damage while using STUN is a recipe for knockouts early and often.

By the way, as a German, can you explain the German fascination with David Hasslehoff? I've always been puzzled... :D

[swobeas]

By the way, as a German, can you explain the German fascination with David Hasslehoff? I've always been puzzled... :D

:eek: fascinaion with David?? As a early teenager I was fascinated by his female life-guard-underlings but not realy with himself. Maybe you should ask a german woman than ;)

[Shadowpup]

Honestly, I don't understand what is so hard to understand.

STR 15 guy punches somebody, roll 3d6. The number that comes up is how much STUN damage is done. Counting BODY is usually the harder bit.

I have found that there are many players that like the hit location table for combat. it's an extra roll but tells you how much STUN is done by Killing Attacks, and adds a bit of semi-reality to fights.

[Kabluey]

First, I agree with what everyone else has said: removing STUN really can have a major impact. I would recommend against it.

I want the combat to be quicker and deadlier, as with stun characters end up knocked out but not killed. This is a core concept of Hero imo and that's fine for most FH campaigns. But I want to play a Warhammer Campaign, including fate points and there should be chance to use these...

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean here, but my interpretation of this is that you'd prefer characters to die when knocked out instead of just being knocked out. If this is the case, then you might just do what I sort of do: I have an informal house rule (informal because it only applies to me as the GM instead of the players) that when an insignificant minion/monster/npc hits -10 STUN or more, they're dead regardless of their BODY. The players don't follow this (I don't even think they know I do this, though they may have come to realize it), and I don't do it for significant monsters or npc's or if I know they're specifically trying not to kill the opponent. You could do a variation of this. Just saying -10 STUN = death for everyone would be too drastic IMO, but you could say that 0 BODY and -10 STUN = death or some variation on this. That would increase the death rate without drastically effecting the balance with other game elements, I would guess.

As to the idea of speeding up the game, there are so many more ways to do so that are better than removing STUN, IMO. For me, the best way was just to use a computer to roll dice. If this is feasible, I'd really recommend doing so. (If the issue is simply that you or the players just like rolling the dice, I'd suggest giving it a shot for one session. I say this because I have several players in my group like this, but once I started using the dice roller, it didn't take long before they voluntarily had me rolling their dice, when they saw how much time it saved.) But even if this isn't an option, there are a plethora of other ways to speed up combat.

[Rapier]

There is a website out there...its real nice and I can't seem to find my link.

It lets you specify the die type and number (15d6) and asks you how many rolls you want and spits it out onto a page. I'm looking for it and can't seem to find it.

Help?

[prestidigitator]

I don't like the idea of getting rid of Stun. For one thing, getting rid of Stun makes people in plate mail total gods. OTOH I'm the first to get rid of detailed End tracking when it becomes cumbersome (I often don't track End at all when I have a group of new players).

[Alibear]

Servus Andi,

Have I got this right? You want to speed up combat, especially for newbies?

Can you explain what an actual combat in your campaign looks like?


Anywhore, I'll talk about things that might speed up combat for you.

1. Normal foes: gaurds, goblins, grunts and minor NPCs don't block or dodge, they die instead. Keep combat maneuvers for your end of scenario bad guy.

2. Keep armour to a minimum for the the grunts, nothing prolongs combat like armour.

3. If the player hits the bad guy with a decent shot the bad guy drops. End of scenario for him. Nothing is worse than hitting a baddy for 10 body and the thief finishing him off with a 2 body hit to the foot.

4. Don't worry about book-keeping for the bad guys too much. Forget end and stun totals, as I said in 3, one good hit should suffice.

5. Don't use too many comabt encounters before the scenario finale if you can help it. Instead of 2 fights before the big bad guy encounter have one verbal or intellectual encounter and only one small scrap.

6. Try to get your PCs scared of combat that way they won't initiate fights for no reason.

7. Normal bad guys have 11 dex and two speed when I GM.

[prestidigitator]

Well, just for NPCs I have now and then simply removed a point of Body for each 3 Stun done to them (I'll base the damage done by a particular attack on the maximum of the Body or the Stun/3 done). Then when they reach negative Body I assume they are either Knocked Out or Dying depending on my gut feel of whether they have really taken more damage due to Stun or Body. When I choose to do it, it usually doesn't even really matter which state they are in; either way they are going to be out of the combat, semi-coherent, might be kept alive with some Paramedics, etc. Obviously this is not for significant villains.

[swobeas]

I am not keeping track of end also. :o
so figther's can fight and sorcerers can cast spells as long as they want to, but the magic users have to be afraid of nasty side effects every time they cast a spell.

Is there a programm that rolls the attack + hit location and then gives the amount of damage done?? :confused:
This would be really nice for me, if the programm would roll + calculate normal + killing damage and I would decide if the roll did actually hit.

Any ideas?

Just for not being misunderstood: I personally like stun pretty much. IMO it is one of the best elements in combat with the Hero System. I am just lokking to deal with combat faster.

AND finally: Hi Alister, nice to äh read you :-)) The points you mention feel pretty much like the Japanese campaign back there ;-) thanx for tips

[Supreme Serpent]

The Die Roller on HeroCentral is wonderful, can handle killing attacks, explosions, etc. I don't know if there's an off-line program that does it as well available.

[DEFCON Clown]

You can find a pretty good die roller program there.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/theala/hero.html

[bigdamnhero]

I read about removing stun as one way to speed up combat in the FH-book and havn't thought so far, that removing it would change that much.
Huh. I didn't remember reading this in FH, but sure enough there it is on p161. (The book calls it a "drastic" option, intended for players who don't like STUN and want to have characters die instead of getting knocked out. It does suggest that you keep STUN for EGO attacks, NNDs and the like, just ignore it for "typical" combat attacks.)

Personally, I'd say drastic is an understatement. If your goal is to speed up combat, there are plenty of better way to do so. If you run a search for threads on speeding up combat, you should come up with several.

On the other hand, if you what you want is more lethality I suggest using the Hit Location chart; it allows you to hit them where their armor isn't. Using Hit locations slows things down a little bit, but not much and IMO it captures the fantasy genre better.

[Hugh Neilson]

Just for not being misunderstood: I personally like stun pretty much. IMO it is one of the best elements in combat with the Hero System. I am just lokking to deal with combat faster.

What are you finding slows it down? It's tough to suggest solutions if you don't know the problem.

I find one means of making combat go faster is the 5 second rule. When your action comes up, if you don't know what your character wants to do within 5 seconds, he's too hesitant and misses that phase. Nothing slows combat down quite so much as players who have to analyze every possible option in excruciating detail, counting hexes and measuring range modifiers, before finally selecting an action (and then backtracking to choose another commonly). Your character has about 3-4 seconds to make a decision and implement it - you don't have the option of a meticulous analysis of every minor nuance of the field of combat.

[Kabluey]

Is there a programm that rolls the attack + hit location and then gives the amount of damage done?? :confused:

Here ya go 22341.

This is the program I wrote and use. It uses a similar dice syntax as Simon's Javascript page, but has a number of enhancements, specifically in this case that it does roll hit locations. It's a Java program, so you'll need Java 1.5+ to use it.

Take a look. If it does what you need, cool. If you have any problems, comments, or suggestions, feel free to let me know.

[CourtFool]

STUN is slowing down combat? I would think that, in a lot of ways, STUN speeds combat.

CON stunned takes a combatant out of the fight for a phase. That speeds things up in that you do not have to wait to see what they are doing (rolling to hit, moving around, ect.) All they can do is recover. They make nice targets too.

It is much easier to bring someone down to 0 STUN than 0 BODY, especially with resistant armor. Once unconscious, the combatant is out of the fight. Nothing speeds up combat like eliminating a combatant.

I think those two factors would speed combat up and make it fairly lethal in that you can be taken out of combat and left very vulnerable without ever taking a single pip.

[MordeanGrey]

I'd suggest using the one-hit, or two-hit-to-kill (or otherwise remove from combat) method for dealing with lesser minions.

I generally have a separate combat sheet listing the minor bad guys (the lesser orcs/goblins or whatever) separately from any of the individual monsters/enemies. When PCs hit a lesser minion I put either a single slash "/" or an "X" through the creature hit. If it's a solid hit and does a lot of body, that generally finishes that guy and results in an "X." If the PC only does 2 body to the minion's leg or something, he only gets a "/." That means it will take one more hit to put him out of combat. (i.e.--goblin #1 gets hit hard in the chest with an axe resulting in an "X" which puts him out of the fight.)

This makes it easy to keep track of the lesser enemies in combat and keeps the GM from constantly figuring stun and body versus armor and hit locations, etc.

[swobeas]

Thanx for all the input and especially the die rollers guys :p

[CourtFool]

I have been giving this some thought. I have tried to think of something that will not require a lot of additional mechanics or calculations. I am sure the bonuses and penalties would need to be adjusted to make this work. This is really a rough draft.

Whenever you are successfully hit by an attack you must make a CON roll. -1 per 3 DCs of the attack, +1 per 2 points of PD or ED, -1 for chest hit, -3 for head shot.

If you fail by 2, you are knocked down and CON stunned. If you fail by 1, you are CON stunned. If you fail by more, you are knocked unconscious.

[Hugh Neilson]

I have been giving this some thought. I have tried to think of something that will not require a lot of additional mechanics or calculations. I am sure the bonuses and penalties would need to be adjusted to make this work. This is really a rough draft.

Whenever you are successfully hit by an attack you must make a CON roll. -1 per 3 DCs of the attack, +1 per 2 points of PD or ED, -1 for chest hit, -3 for head shot.

If you fail by 2, you are knocked down and CON stunned. If you fail by 1, you are CON stunned. If you fail by more, you are knocked unconscious.

While this might be a viable variant mechanic, I don't think it would ultimately be easier or make combat significantly quicker. It reminds me vaguely of the Mutants & Masterminds system.

[CourtFool]

While this might be a viable variant mechanic, I don't think it would ultimately be easier or make combat significantly quicker. It reminds me vaguely of the Mutants & Masterminds system.

I completely agree with you. I did get the idea from browsing M&M. I was just trying to offer a variant mechanic instead of staying on the nay-sayer bandwagon. :D

[Rapier]

Oh another thing to mention is to make all the guards the same (or with one or two variants). They all go on the same Phase and the same DEX and have the same OCV/DCV, etc. This way you don't need to keep referencing sheets to figure out if they get hit or something.

Mooks, Guards, Henchpersons, etc:
- don't take Recoveries.
- don't use combat maneuvers.
- don't necessarily stick around to get beat on (RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!).
- don't take advantage of team tactics.
- only use straightforward smash, grab, shoot attacks (no trying to blow someone into a bus using KB).

Where things can get slow is when you have non-mook combat. Say, Hero group vs Villain group. Villainous groups will use maneuvers and shoot you into buses using KB, will take Recoveries and especially will use team tactics and maneuvers.

In these cases you need to know the sheets real well. You need to be thoroughly prepared and you need to know what those villains are going to do quickly. These combats will be slower, but they will also be more challenging (and one would hope) more fun.

[AliceTheOwl]

It's been recommended to me quite recently (by Champsguy over on ngd.com) that you write down not the OCV/DCV, but what each character needs to roll under to hit the mooks, and what the mooks need to roll under to hit a party member. It takes a little time before the game to sort out and write down, but it makes things a LOT faster when you're running combat.

[Rapier]

It's been recommended to me quite recently (by Champsguy over on ngd.com) that you write down not the OCV/DCV, but what each character needs to roll under to hit the mooks, and what the mooks need to roll under to hit a party member. It takes a little time before the game to sort out and write down, but it makes things a LOT faster when you're running combat.

I've VERY recently switched back to a Face-to-Face game (from IRC). We've been on IRC for about 12 years now, so I've had all these die roller apps and things. Our first F-to-F game I couldn't remember how calculate to hit...and I count dice pretty slow.

It is MUCH easier to use the 11 + OCV - ROLL = DCV Hit. I've got notes on sheets (19 - Roll) for help. This has the added benefit that you can scream over the crowd at the GM "I HIT DCV 8" and he tells you whether you hit or not. I like this method a lot better than telling players "He has a DCV of 5, let me know if you hit."

[AliceTheOwl]

*shrugs*

I can't do math in my head very quickly, nor can my players. It takes out a step to know, by looking at the die roll and the die roll only, whether it's a hit. I don't need to tell my players what DCV they're going for, either; I just glance at their dice and tell them they hit, or didn't.

As a newbie GM, it's a great help, and it helps to speed up combat, which is something I'm really terrible at.

[swobeas]

It is MUCH easier to use the 11 + OCV - ROLL = DCV Hit. I've got notes on sheets (19 - Roll) for help. This has the added benefit that you can scream over the crowd at the GM "I HIT DCV 8" and he tells you whether you hit or not. I like this method a lot better than telling players "He has a DCV of 5, let me know if you hit."

One thing the d&d player in my old group proposed and the whole group rapidly agreed on is to :
roll + OCV must be DCV + 10 or higher to hit.

If you have OCV 6 and roll an 11 for example, then you hit an 17 and call thisd out to the GM. the GM simply substracts 10 from the 17 and knows the the character would hit up to 7 DCV :thumbup:

[Thia Halmades]

I'm fairly certain there's been some sort of misunderstanding here. On the OP's part.

Dude, in Fantasy Hero, there is in fact a section which details, at length, how & when to remove STUN from the campaign - but only as it applies to dealing with mooks and other underlings. Never, once, does the book suggest you not use STUN for your heroes.

I played a lot of d20, and I'm still getting into HERO (although it's finally becoming faster and clearer). So, first, most of what everyone else has said is correct - I don't disagree with my peers without good reason. They are correct - you MUST use STUN.

Hero simulates dramatic combat. As in, what you see in film. In order to do this, people have to be able to be knocked around without getting killed - or knocked out and then 'helped up' at the end of a fight. They'll lose BODY over the course of the adventure, odds are not all at once.

Second. Armor in HERO is money - but armor only makes sense once STUN is involved. I have a PC Tank with multiple defenses running at 16 PD/16 ED/50% Damage Red. I can barely dent him with conventional weaponry (1d6 1/2 + 1d6 STUN). On average, I'll do 5 BODY, 15 STUN, and he won't even notice. Not good. :D But he also wants his tank concept to work, which I appreciate. Everyone argues over it, which is also, oddly, good because we all care.

But what you seem to be missing - or misinterpreting - is that STUN is a definitvely heroic trait. It allows you to take a lot of punishment and get back up, or be hit with a big, powerful attack, get thrown into the crates, then pull yourself to your feet after spending a round in recovery. Not using the STUN rules will really destroy (not alter, not 'subtly change,' destroy) the feel of the system and what it's built to do.

So while I'm all about saying "It's your game, play it how you like" I think you haven't grasped all of the concepts behind it yet, hence the confusion. If you want to improve the lethality of the game, I suggest the following:

Don't allow any DEF higher than Plate Mail (8).
Review any and all DEF spells - DEF in Hero is CHEAP, and buying a big forcefield is ALSO cheap. Note the cap on DEF.
Then, build villains with +CSLs to Damage Classes in their chosen weapons.

Lethality will jump. People WILL take BODY from direct hits. Remember: BODY IS NOT HIT POINTS. It's BODY. There are no Hit Points in HERO. It's BODY and STUN, and ne'er the twain shall meet. This is a critical point to grasp, which you seem to have by passed. :D

In other words: I can't help you with the decision you've made, I can only say, from over here, it's a bad decision that seems to have come from an imperfect understanding of the rules and having not played the game.

[Supreme Serpent]

One thing the d&d player in my old group proposed and the whole group rapidly agreed on is to :
roll + OCV must be DCV + 10 or higher to hit.

If you have OCV 6 and roll an 11 for example, then you hit an 17 and call thisd out to the GM. the GM simply substracts 10 from the 17 and knows the the character would hit up to 7 DCV :thumbup:

Well...that wouldn't quite work.

6+11=17-10=hits DCV 7
6+12=18-10=hits DCV 8
6+13=19-10=hits DCV 9

An 11 from OCV 6 would hit DCV 6, not 7. Then it proceeds to make it so that the HIGHER you roll, the better DCV you hit. :nonp:

[Hugh Neilson]

Well...that wouldn't quite work.

6+11=17-10=hits DCV 7

Yes. And in the standard model, a 6 OCV needs 10- to hit DCV 7. Rolling 10 or less happens 50% of the time. Rolling 11 or or happens 50% of the time.

6+12=18-10=hits DCV 8

And under the standard system, OCV 6 must roll 9-, which happens 37.5% of the time. Under this system, however, he needs 12+ which happens 37.5% of the time (as 11- is 62.5% of the rolls).

6+13=19-10=hits DCV 9

The standard system would require an 8-, which happens 25.93% of the time. A 12- happens 74.07% of the time, so a 13+ is a 25.93% chance of hitting.

An 11 from OCV 6 would hit DCV 6, not 7. Then it proceeds to make it so that the HIGHER you roll, the better DCV you hit. :nonp:

The revision (which I don't use either) simply converts the "roll low" system to a "roll high" system, with the same likelihood of success. If the group wants high rolls to succeed, this approach works fine, without changing the probabilities of success and failure.

[swobeas]

Well...that wouldn't quite work.

6+11=17-10=hits DCV 7
6+12=18-10=hits DCV 8
6+13=19-10=hits DCV 9

An 11 from OCV 6 would hit DCV 6, not 7. Then it proceeds to make it so that the HIGHER you roll, the better DCV you hit. :nonp:


yep you are perfectly right, the higher the roll, the better the attack. It is easier for most humanoid brains (as mine is , at leadt as far as I can guess about ma own brain with itself :o ) to do the same simple mathematical operation ( here add numers up) 2 times then do one operation and then a different one ( as you fist add up the rolled dices and then go on thje standard way in Hero System)

Some people find it crucial to roll in combat low because they have to roll low at skill rolls also. I personally prefer the easier way :smoke:

[swobeas]

But what you seem to be missing - or misinterpreting - is that STUN is a definitvely heroic trait. It allows you to take a lot of punishment and get back up, or be hit with a big, powerful attack, get thrown into the crates, then pull yourself to your feet after spending a round in recovery. Not using the STUN rules will really destroy (not alter, not 'subtly change,' destroy) the feel of the system and what it's built to do.

So while I'm all about saying "It's your game, play it how you like" I think you haven't grasped all of the concepts behind it yet, hence the confusion. If you want to improve the lethality of the game, I suggest the following:

Don't allow any DEF higher than Plate Mail (8).
Review any and all DEF spells - DEF in Hero is CHEAP, and buying a big forcefield is ALSO cheap. Note the cap on DEF.
Then, build villains with +CSLs to Damage Classes in their chosen weapons.

Lethality will jump. People WILL take BODY from direct hits. Remember: BODY IS NOT HIT POINTS. It's BODY. There are no Hit Points in HERO. It's BODY and STUN, and ne'er the twain shall meet. This is a critical point to grasp, which you seem to have by passed. :D

In other words: I can't help you with the decision you've made, I can only say, from over here, it's a bad decision that seems to have come from an imperfect understanding of the rules and having not played the game.

I find it quite interresting on how you (try to ;) ) judge if someone else understood something right or not. Maybe you should make sure for yourself if you understood everything right...:cool:
And if you are not shure, try to be a little bit more äh let's say diplomatic ok?

[Hugh Neilson]

Some people find it crucial to roll in combat low because they have to roll low at skill rolls also. I personally prefer the easier way :smoke:

I don't find either easier. I do find the fact that sometimes you roll high, and other times low, provides a good reason to avoid biased dice :)

[Thia Halmades]

:think: Depends, which part of my post was undiplomatic? The part where I said it was a bad decision, or the part where I said you didn't understand something? Having read through the thread, those are my conclusions. In my opinion: You don't understand how STUN works (your opening post said it's a set decision and will NOT change, which is fine, s'your game) and second, having played d20 (aka D&D) for the better part of my life, I'm fairly well familiar with the hit point system and how it operates, and why HERO is fundamentally different in its use of STUN & BODY.

You then went on to say you weren't counting END, either, which is another major element of how HERO works, so... yeah, I'm going to say those are poor decisions and really undermine the mechanics of the entire system. Why buy an 8d6 EB if you're only going to count Normal Body? And, better, if you have Resistant Armor, it won't matter anyway! So I'm at a loss as to precisely how your changes improve the game in any way, shape, or form.

I love Hero, and I want people to play Hero, and I personally don't give a whit HOW they play Hero, but if you're going to ask for my opinion (i.e., you post to the board and I tell you what I think) don't criticize it based on an imperfect understanding of why I said what I did. It's... ah... undiplomatic. :D

[Thia Halmades]

Hugh: Well, that, or my players simply have two sets. One they insist 'roll low' for skills & hit rolls, and the other 'rolls high' for damage. I haven't seen a big difference yet, but hey. :D

[prestidigitator]

I've used a roll-high method that works really smoothly.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=871801#post871801

[Alibear]

Having read through the thread, those are my conclusions. In my opinion: You don't understand how STUN works


Your opinion is wrong.

[Thia Halmades]

I'll make a note of that, Ali. But thanks very much for showing me the error of my ways. :D

[Cosmosemeritus]

Hi!

How do you handle playing FH without using the Stun rules?
I don't. I wouldn't recomend it either. Stun is one of the major reasons to play Hero; Fantasy or otherwise.


I want to do get rid of stun cause it slows fights down, especially with unexperienced players. The decision is fixed.
I disagree with your reasoning, but I'll still try to help.
But now I ask myself how to handle:
- BODY < 0 Do characters die reaching 0 BODY, or do they keep going until they reach their negative BODY value?
In theory, the characters would keep going until they reach their negative body value.
- if the are below 0 BODY do they get handicaps? (like 1/2 OCV, DCV and movement for example?)
- what about hits causing a lot of damage at once (like when using Stun the victim is stunned because getting too much stun with one hit?)
Both of these can be done using the Impairing/Disabling options in the 5ER. And of course there is always the standard rule that a limb can only take 1/3 of a character's body in one hit before getting lopped clean off.
Would CON become a 1 pt characteristic then? Or could I use CON rolls every round for a character below 0 BODY, in order to keep going...:nonp:

thanks for input!:thumbup:

Lets see... with Stun every 10 CP of Con gets you 5 Con, 1 ED, 1 Rec, 10 End, and 2(.5) Stun, which is 10 points of secondary characteristics. Without stun, that only drops to 8, which IMO isn't enough to lower the cost of Con. But if you are also not using Endurance and Recovery, then Con is barely even worth a single CP per point. IMO

[Hugh Neilson]

Lets see... with Stun every 10 CP of Con gets you 5 Con, 1 ED, 1 Rec, 10 End, and 2(.5) Stun, which is 10 points of secondary characteristics. Without stun, that only drops to 8, which IMO isn't enough to lower the cost of Con. But if you are also not using Endurance and Recovery, then Con is barely even worth a single CP per point. IMO

Automotons don't get a break on the rpice of CON when they don't take STUN, so why should PC's?

On the other hand, if the game lacks STUN and END, I can probably live with a reduced REC (and get BODY back from healing spells). I'm not going to get Stunned. So the only thing CON gets me is +1 ED for a 10 character point investment, and a +1 to CON rolls (yeah, those are common!).

I think this would lead to a bias to sell back CON to the full extent allowed, and to sell back REC (since I assume you won't let me sell back STUN if you don't use it).

Actually, what you should do if you're playing without STUN is cut the defense of Armor to 1/3 and charge triple for defenses. That's what automotons who Take no Stun have to pay.

[Supreme Serpent]

yep you are perfectly right, the higher the roll, the better the attack.

Ah, that's fine then if you've switched which end of the spectrum you're aiming for. Wasn't clear in the original post. :thumbup:

[Harakani]

First, effectively everyone has the power: "Takes no Stun" from the Automoton rules.

I'm looking at running an Automoton game at the moment, so this intrigues me :)
Remember all defences are /3 with this power.
Occurs to me you may want to use the 45 point version, whereby every attack that does BODY causes a reduction (I'd make it a simple reduction like "-1 to all skills and CVs"... a sort of negative overall level)

[Shadowpup]

I think this would lead to a bias to sell back CON to the full extent allowed, and to sell back REC (since I assume you won't let me sell back STUN if you don't use it).

Ooh, imagine the cheese you can bake with that.
I'd sell back most of my CON (since it doesn't matter at all) and buy oh...18 points of STR YAY!

Talk about borken.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Automotons don't get a break on the rpice of CON when they don't take STUN, so why should PC's?

Excellent point. I didn't even think of automatons when responding to the OP *slaps own forehead*. I blame the tequila.

[Thia Halmades]

Yes, but that's your excuse for everything.

[Cosmosemeritus]

That's cause its usually involved, one way or t'other.

[Thia Halmades]

Well, now at least I know why we can't keep the liquor cabinet stocked around here. Between you and people guzzling the rum, good heavens.