Hero Designer - Why or Why Not?

[Hierax]

With Fantasy Hero coming out, I now have to seriously consider whether or not to get this HERO DESIGNER software.

So, I was wondering if some of you could be so kind as to summarize the Pros and Cons of Hero Designer. and appreciate any advice that you all can offer based on your experience with the software.

Thanks!

P.S. I've heard that the program is a major resource hog and, FWIW, the computer that I'll be running it on most of the time is a 450MHz Pentium with 256 MB of RAM running Windows 2000 Professional (at least until I can scrape together enough $ to buy a new system).

[Simon]

I'll avoid the pros and cons, since I'm rather hopelessly biased on this ;-)

However...as far as the resources go, HD will likely run a bit slow on your system. It shouldn't be unusable by any means, but it will definitely be slow.

I'm currently in the midst of developing v2 and the first issue that I'm addressing is the performance. The work that I've done so far has shown HUGE improvments in performance for v2....it no longer matters how big a character gets (number of skills, powers, etc.) or how many characters you have open. There's still some more work that I'd like to do, but I can definitely say that folks should be pleased with the performance improvements in v2.

Now....as for your question, I'm not sure how much this helps you. V1 (which is what you'd be buying now) will run slowly for you. There's just not much of a way around that.

Whether this is something that you can live with (at least until v2 comes out) or if it's something which you'd rather avoid and wait for v2 to solve before getting HD is up to you. I am hoping to have v2 ready to roll in December.

[Hierax]

Thanks for the prompt response.

I wouldn't be getting it until after Fantasy Hero comes out and since I'm in Canada that means likely in August but I could put it off until December.

[tiger]

I love the program myself. I know there are those here that wish it was more customizeable than it is at this time. This is due to house rules they use in their campaigns and such.

With the templetes most anything can be added to it. I have added a new disadvantage called Secret. To make it show up in the disadvantage list I have to modify the templets each time a update is released. Now I have to do this only because I wish it to show on the list, otherwise I could just use a "custom disadvantage".

Over all I high recommend it. With the changes Dan is doing and the templetes made by other posters here it is a extremely useful program. I run it on a 400P at home and while it is a bit slower than my work or laptop it still works well and has saved me a lot of time and effort.

[zornwil]

Hi, although you asked for a summary and I'm giving you a couple threads, I think these would be fairest - you'll get several different people's pros and cons.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=278

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1383

Good luck.

[Hierax]

Thanks, zornwil! Those links were quite helpful.

At this point, from what I've read, I think I'll wait until version 2 of HERO DESIGNER comes out to see if the two big gripes are fixed:

1. The problem of Speed: if version 2 is significantly faster, I'll take a look at it. But this problem might go away for me whenever I can get a newer computer or seeing if I can cram another 256 MB of RAM in this old box.

2. How well the issue of Customizability is addressed. There are several tweaks that I'm making to the HERO System for my own house rules and if the program isn't flexible enough to make them, then there won't be much point. To my mind the flexibility of the HERO System is it's biggest selling point and the more flexible the character creation software is the more attractive it is to me.

So, while I'm not sold on version 1, I'll just have to wait and see if version 2 of Hero Designer is for me.

Thank you all for your comments!

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hierax
2. How well the issue of Customizability is addressed.

More was written, pardon the snip - Hierax, you might want to pose your specific questions on customizability here. Although there are elements of it (as you've seen) that I've criticized, I'd be the first to admit that for most people the degree to which HD can be customized is acceptable - the devil is more in the details. My game is unorthodox (I don't think unreasonably so, but certainly not something I'd run at a con game for example) so it has had impact on my - YMMV.

But I will add (no disrespect to HD or Dan) the 5th edition Metacreator tempalte is quite good and while it hass a couple irregularities compared to HD/the "official" rules they are really trivial, resulting in maybe a point or two difference on a character.

[Hierax]

zornwil wrote:

you might want to pose your specific questions on customizability here.

Ok, there's millions of things that could be done, some things like:

- STR cost changed to 2

- Mental Defence as a Figure Characteristic.

- New campaign specific Figured Characteristics -- e.g., 'beauty defence' against comeliness attacks in a swashbuckling superspy game ;)

- Mana as a Figured Characteristic

- Defence Powers at a 5-point basis so that they are equal to attack powers so that they fit more logically into power frameworks (which act as point balance mechanisms)

- Expanded Skill points for 1-10 point levels.

- Range and Area of Effect from Base Points not Active Points (armour-piercing bullets aren't always longer ranged).

- Greater Granularity in several Advantage and Limitations so that they have a full 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1, etc... progression that fills in the missing gaps but requires changing the existing costs.

- Altered increments for Mega Scale so that it works better at smaller scope games (e.g., a scaling factor of 10: 2m, 10m, 100m, 1km, 10km, 100km, 1,000km, etc.).

- Inverted dice resolutions depicted for rolls -- e.g. 4+ instead of 17- (Higher is better mechanic)

- Allowance for costing of powers using dice effects other than the standard d6's.

- Changing the Time Chart

- Altering the Cost of Heal so that it parallels that of damage

- 100% Damage Reduction

- Characteristics as Powers which move the NCM up or down.

- Negative Characteristics as Powers (for racial package deals), which can lower the NCM.

- Expanding the NCM concept to have several different increments x2 cost, x3 cost, etc. to futher reinforce the diminishing returns (one of the few things I like about GURPS).

- Negative Skill levels

OK, this list is probably a little far out for most of you but, ideally, I like to think that pretty much anything about the game that one can imagine doing diffrently should be alterable in a database character generation system as in essence it is just numbers attached to text.

It's late and I can't think of all of the things that could be altered, but the key to HERO is its ultra-flexibility of the toolkitting process so I'd like to be able to push the limits with house rules with the software so they can be (almost) as flexible as it is on paper but make it less work.

Not everybody needs all options (heck, I don't want all of the above), but somebody is going to want one option or another and if the software can meet more of these (admitably obscure) needs the more useful it will be to more people.

Man, now I'm rambling on, better go to sleep; but I hope that this gives you somewhat of an idea of some of the customization options that could be useful to a GM's particular house rules.

[Simon]

That's part of the problem right there: HD is not designed to be "just numbers attached to text". Not in any way, shape or form.

If you want that, use Excel.

HD is designed to implement and follow the rules of the Hero System. To be the ultimate "rules lawyer" for those that want an easy way to create characters which follow the myriad rules and regulations laid out in FREd, the FAQ, etc.

Now, that said, there is a fair bit of customization that can occur (even in v1). To go through your list in order (the following are what is currently possible with v1):

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Yes, but very limited.

4. See (3)

5. Yes.

6. Yes.

7. Not really....though Custom Modiifer _can_ do it, this becomes a manual process and reduces you to "numbers and text"

8. Yes.

9. Yes.

10. No.

11. Not really sure what you mean, but you can change the text that displays easily enough (frex: 5d20 or 5 levels or e^5 or what have you)

12. Yes, though it would be a bit of a pain (lots of repetition through the template)

13. Yes.

14. Yes.

15. No.

16. No.

17. No (though you could accomplish this with Characteristics bought as Powers and placing various Mods on them)

18. Yes (this is allowed under the rules)

[Hierax]

Thanks, dsimon!

My list was admitably a real stretch on what someone would actually want to do and I'm impressed that it looks like HERO DESIGNER can handle a lot of these!

What the software can handle outside of the rules tells me more about it than what it will handle within the rules.

I look forward to seeing Version 2. Will there be a "Demo" version available to showcase the features in a limited 'try-before-you-buy' way? Or is there a bunch of fan-created character sheets that can be downloaded that would show examples of what can be done?

Thanks for taking the time to give me more information!

[tiger]

Another thing to consider is the HD packs available through the online store. They're great to have and use!

[Simon]

Originally posted by Hierax

I look forward to seeing Version 2. Will there be a "Demo" version available to showcase the features in a limited 'try-before-you-buy' way? Or is there a bunch of fan-created character sheets that can be downloaded that would show examples of what can be done?

Possibly....the issue is always one of "giving away the keys to the store" ;)

What I will likely do is another "public test period" for v2....this will be more or less the same thing as a demo, but in a more controlled environment and with an automatic "kill" built in (the app will need to check against an online server whenever it starts up -- if it can't get to the server or if the server says that the version is out of date, it will not start). No promises on this, however....I need to see how things develop ;-)

[JohnTaber]

Hi Hierax,

Re: The performance issues. I run on almost the exact system you described. I have a P3/450 MHz with 256 MB RAM and WinXP Professional. I don't think the speed issue outweighs the power of the application. If I take special precautions (i.e. like only opening one PC at a time, and restarting the application between each PC) it works MORE than fine. I even have some pretty damn long villains and I don't have a problem. I think HD is a really fantastic product...it has made my GM life MUCH easier... ;)

[zornwil]

Originally posted by JohnTaber
Hi Hierax,

Re: The performance issues. I run on almost the exact system you described. I have a P3/450 MHz with 256 MB RAM and WinXP Professional. I don't think the speed issue outweighs the power of the application. If I take special precautions (i.e. like only opening one PC at a time, and restarting the application between each PC) it works MORE than fine. I even have some pretty damn long villains and I don't have a problem. I think HD is a really fantastic product...it has made my GM life MUCH easier... ;)

For GMing I find it more difficult, because on a laptop that's similar to yours although a higher-powered CPU if I try to use HD I can't load more than 3 characters before it pretty much stops functioning. I use MC to have all the characters for an evening loaded at once. Yes, I could export them from HD, but I don't want to have to do that. So I'm looking forward to performance enhancements.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hierax


Ok, there's millions of things that could be done, some things like:

etc.


I'd say Meta Creator can do all of these but many would require you to do some significant work, some would be easier or more efficiently handled than in HD, and some would be easier in HD. The long and short is that as Dan writes there's some things you just can't do, while in MC if you want to do them you really have put some elbow into it. If you'd like I can go line by line but I think you can base your feelings pretty well off of Dan's note and the little bit I provided here.

[schir1964]

Metacreator: Hero 5th Edition Template

Built-in = Template incorporates this option already with Toggles and such.
Minor = Minor change to Template (5 to 10 Minutes)
Major = Major change to Template (30 Minutes to 2 Hours)
Extreme = Extreme change to Template (6 to 12 Hours)
??? = Not sure what you mean

- STR cost changed to 2 [Minor]

- Mental Defence as a Figure Characteristic. [Built-in]

- New campaign specific Figured Characteristics -- e.g., 'beauty defence' against comeliness attacks in a swashbuckling superspy game ;) [Extreme]

- Mana as a Figured Characteristic [Major]

- Defence Powers at a 5-point basis so that they are equal to attack powers so that they fit more logically into power frameworks (which act as point balance mechanisms) [Minor]

- Expanded Skill points for 1-10 point levels. [Minor]

- Range and Area of Effect from Base Points not Active Points (armour-piercing bullets aren't always longer ranged). [Minor]

- Greater Granularity in several Advantage and Limitations so that they have a full 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1, etc... progression that fills in the missing gaps but requires changing the existing costs. [Minor]

- Altered increments for Mega Scale so that it works better at smaller scope games (e.g., a scaling factor of 10: 2m, 10m, 100m, 1km, 10km, 100km, 1,000km, etc.). [Minor]

- Inverted dice resolutions depicted for rolls -- e.g. 4+ instead of 17- (Higher is better mechanic) [Minor]

- Allowance for costing of powers using dice effects other than the standard d6's. [Extreme]

- Changing the Time Chart [Minor]

- Altering the Cost of Heal so that it parallels that of damage [Minor]

- 100% Damage Reduction [Minor]

- Characteristics as Powers which move the NCM up or down. [???]

- Negative Characteristics as Powers (for racial package deals), which can lower the NCM. [Built-in]

- Expanding the NCM concept to have several different increments x2 cost, x3 cost, etc. to futher reinforce the diminishing returns (one of the few things I like about GURPS). [Major]

- Negative Skill levels [Minor]

Based on what you say you want out of a program, I think that Metacreator with the Hero 5th Edition Template might be better suited to your desires. Also Metacreator can be used for different game systems as well.

Email me if you want more details or screen samples.

- Christopher Mullins (schir1964@netzero.net)

[Derek Hiemforth]

However, as you're making all these minor changes, you're also trying to learn a proprietary programming language as you go along. I'm not saying it's outrageously difficult, but it isn't just pointing and clicking or something. You have to teach yourself what Metacreator expects to find when looking at definitions and such. The documentation is fairly complete, but also very user-unfriendly, IMO.

[Simon]

You also have the issue that there are a myriad of rules from FREd (minor or "subtle" ones, granted) that MC does not follow.....and the fact that HD is the "official" chargen for Hero Games, meaning that you will get things like character packs for it and other "add ons" which will not be available for MC (as Steve has recently re-iterated, making them available for MC would be an infringement of Hero Games' Intellectual Property). Etc.

MC is a fine program, but it was designed with a different purpose from HD. MC was designed to be a generic chargen. HD was designed to be a chargen for Hero Games. There are numerous differences that this will have on the apps.

If you're looking to make characters for a myriad of systems and don't really care about the fine points of rules and are willing to put a LOT of work into customization (trust me, MC is a bitch to customize when you have to hit the template) then MC is the way to go.

If you're looking to make characters for the Hero System (and would like to have the chargen obey the myriad rules and regulations that have been put forth in FREd, the FAQ and numerous supplements), then HD is for you.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by dsimon

You also have the issue that there are a myriad of rules from FREd (minor or "subtle" ones, granted) that MC does not follow.....and the fact that HD is the "official" chargen for Hero Games, meaning that you will get things like character packs for it and other "add ons" which will not be available for MC (as Steve has recently re-iterated, making them available for MC would be an infringement of Hero Games' Intellectual Property). Etc.

MC is a fine program, but it was designed with a different purpose from HD. MC was designed to be a generic chargen. HD was designed to be a chargen for Hero Games. There are numerous differences that this will have on the apps.

If you're looking to make characters for a myriad of systems and don't really care about the fine points of rules and are willing to put a LOT of work into customization (trust me, MC is a bitch to customize when you have to hit the template) then MC is the way to go.

If you're looking to make characters for the Hero System (and would like to have the chargen obey the myriad rules and regulations that have been put forth in FREd, the FAQ and numerous supplements), then HD is for you.

You don't need to do any (as opposed to "a LOT of") customizations for those templates in MC if you want them to fucntion "as is" - Dan, I don't know what you mean by "and are willing to put a LOT of work into customization" since you don't need to do any unless you are doing some pretty heavy house rules/mods. As the first paragraph alludes to, the differences are very subtle indeed at this point between MC and HD so to say "don't really care about the fine points of rules" I'd put an emphasis indeed on "fine".

Also, MC is not "a bitch to customize" depending on what level of customization you're referring to. Some things that are impossible to customize directly in HD are dead easy to do in MC, while yes SOME things are "a bitch" but those are some pretty heavy-duty things you're talking about. And primarily we're talking about things HD doesn't allow because HERO doesn't allow them. By the same token, there are a few changes that are easier to make in HD than MC.

Dan, I don't disagree with most of the essential parts of your post but I think you do paint an unfair picture to say it's unqualifiedly "a bitch" and that one has to be willing to put in a "LOT" of customization. It's like when people assault HD for being extraordinaly hard to customize to the degree that it can even be done - they are being unfair as well since like MC, HD has a pretty good manual.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Dan may slap me for saying this, but... For folks who are really concerned about house-rule-friendliness, customizability, output versatility, and so on, there is only one chargen program you're ever going to be fully satisfied with...

Your Friendly Neighborhood Word-Processing Software. :)

If you want utter control over every aspect of what you're allowed to put on the sheet, how you're allowed to add it up, and what it's allowed to look like once it's there, the only way you'll get that control is to simply write the information down.

Chargen software is all about trading some of that limitless flexibility for convenience and/or assistance in applying the rules correctly. No matter what chargen software you use, you will be trading off at least some flexibility. It's a question of which chargen software offers the best balance between providing as much convenience and utility as possible, and consuming as little of your flexibility as possible.

For me, the best HERO System chargen in that regard is Hero Designer. :)

[Simon]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
Dan may slap me for saying this, but... For folks who are really concerned about house-rule-friendliness, customizability, output versatility, and so on, there is only one chargen program you're ever going to be fully satisfied with...

Your Friendly Neighborhood Word-Processing Software. :)

If you want utter control over every aspect of what you're allowed to put on the sheet, how you're allowed to add it up, and what it's allowed to look like once it's there, the only way you'll get that control is to simply write the information down.

Chargen software is all about trading some of that limitless flexibility for convenience and/or assistance in applying the rules correctly. No matter what chargen software you use, you will be trading off at least some flexibility. It's a question of which chargen software offers the best balance between providing as much convenience and utility as possible, and consuming as little of your flexibility as possible.

For me, the best HERO System chargen in that regard is Hero Designer. :)
Why would I slap you for saying that? It's pretty much exactly what I've said before ;-)

HD is all about the rules of the Hero System. It follows them better than any other piece of software out there for the simple reason that it was designed to do so from the ground up.

Pen and paper/word processor/spreadsheet will always be more flexible, as it allows you to just roll your own for whatever you want. That's not the point of a chargen (as Derek stated). The chargen's main purpose in life is to assist in the application of the rules. While I love the Hero System to death, one of its main drawbacks is the complexity of its rules (a necessary thing to achieve the level of flexibility that they have). That's why HD was written.