Idea Feedback: Manipulation

[schir1964]

Okay, I need some ideas or at least some feedback as to what I'm trying to do here.

I want to be able have a stat or value that reflects the different levels of manipulating objects with appendages as it were.

Humans of course have thier hands that allow them to manipulate things and monkeys have thier tail they can also use but at much lesser degree. Also, there might be various aliens whose tentacles allow them create silicon circuit chips manually.

Now I know I can use bonuses, modifiers, and disadvantages to represent the different things above, but what I want is a centralized mechanic to be able to take a quick glance at and tell what modifiers to apply to any particular task.

I was thinking of some type of Manipulation stat or value.
Example:
Manipulation: 10 (Human Hands)
Manipulation: 5 (Monkey's Tail)
Manipulation: 100 (Alien Tentacles)

Has anyone done something similar or have another idea on how to do this?

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

I'm not sure if I understand well enough. What effects are you seeing of this manipulation? You mention the idea of alien tentacles with fine manipulation, and an example you cite is manufacturing silicone chips manually. It sounds like it might be really open-ended, on the high side at least, and not clear as to the boundaries of "manipulation"?

Also, wouldn't such an ability logically go so far as manipulation at range, a form of TK sort of? Just a stray thought there.

[schir1964]

I'm not sure if I understand well enough. What effects are you seeing of this manipulation? You mention the idea of alien tentacles with fine manipulation, and an example you cite is manufacturing silicone chips manually. It sounds like it might be really open-ended, on the high side at least, and not clear as to the boundaries of "manipulation"?
Well, I personally see it working mechanically similar DEX. DEX grants you OCV and DCV that determines how well you can Deliver/Avoid attacks.

Manipulation would grant you a similar bonus to handling objects as unified mechanic.


Also, wouldn't such an ability logically go so far as manipulation at range, a form of TK sort of? Just a stray thought there.
Actually, Telekinesis has it's own adder for "Fine Manipulation", but the system doesn't really give any guideline for how someone is penalized for not having fine manipulation and still trying to accomplish a task that would normally require "Fine Manipulation".

For Telekinesis, it might be okay to say, you either can do it or you can't , but for other things such as my character Prism who is made of some type of dense crystal might be able to pick up a piece of obsian rock, but not easily.

I'm just trying to come up with a easier method to gage manipulation and also make it easy to read of a character sheet. Right now, such effects can be found as a Disadvantage, Adder, Limitations/Advantages, if such modification exists for the character at all.

Does this help any?

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Well, kinda, but to me "handling objects" is still really vague. Whereas hitting/avoiding is not. It seems like it could overlap an awful lot with DEX; what is the difference?

[schir1964]

Well as far as I can tell, DEX is used for determining success for handling objects, but only if there is a reason that such a task might fail due to complexity or conditions.

Thus DEX grants you your base manipulation for handling objects. But what if you character is worse or better at manipulation only?

In many cases where Manipulation might be different than the norm, a Character Disadvantage is used with some penalty value that applies to the DEX roll for manipulation only and doesn't affect OCV, DCV, or SPD.

You could also try some sort of Limitation on DEX, but how much is -1, -2, or -3 to DEX Roll for Manipulation Only worth?

So what I'm after is some sort of single consistent way of measuring that penalty/bonus (modifier to DEX roll) for both detrimental or beneficial effects of manipulating objects. The modifier would be open ended of course, but how is that modifier obtained and tracked?

BTW: Thanks, your questions have helped express what I'm really after. Sort been struggling with how to explain it.

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

It's interesting to note since Telepathy's Fine Manipulation is, what, a 5 point Adder, so the value is generally considered low in HERO. I think that's because the end results of manipulation are usually considered more what you pay for if it's anything more than mundane stuff.

Anyway, I would think one approach is to consider DEX' many abilities and figure out what portion manipulation might be. I dunno. It's a difficult one. And it will depend a bit on a character basis where it might be made more difficult as the basis of many power rolls, so some characters will make it more utile.

Anyway, I tend to think of manipulation as a part of "just dexterity", and as I recall, we typically have seen constructs to break DEX out as 1 point for just DEX, a -2 basically. Theoretically manipulation only is a large subset of that, what, say, half? So like half a point?

Or maybe it's better thought of as a skill.

I think it's difficult as a deconstruction, as it's something not generally given its own value very much in HERO.

[Dust Raven]

Hero System currently had only three levels of Manipulation: none, rough and fine. A cat's tail has no manipulation, a cat's paw has rough manipulation, and a human hand has fine manipulation. For greater than fine/human hand manipulation, this suggests a Power that makes the task that is impossible with fine manipulation possible. Or, if all you want to do is make a task that is difficult (but not impossible) with human hands easier, you can accomplish that with Skill Levels for that task, or type of task. I've done this last one before for characters with extremely sensitive or agile hands. The ability was bought as Skill Levels with any task requiring Fine Manipulation. They are 5 point levels as they could apply to several Skills.

[zornwil]

I guess I view "impossible with human hands" as more like being something like a DEX roll with a -20 or the like, for example, I don't see it as new to the system, per se.

[schir1964]

You are both correct in how you handle the issue. And that is my point. Regardless of why one might need Super Fine Manipulation or represent Rough Manipulation, there is no unifying mechanic to show what penalties/bonus a character has or to show an innate level Manipulation that is outisde the norm. The current implementation is all over the place.

Now as for the Skill idea. Skills are usually available to any character who has a mind to learn it. I don't see Super Fine Manipulation being a skill in this context since it might require biology or mehanical appendages to actually do the task.

DEX by itself grants the base norm for Manipulation, but has difficulty in representing different levels of Manipulation outside the norm of the character. In fact, now that I think about it, just because DEX may be 30 doesn't necessarily mean the character is better at picking up a grain of sand. So Manipulation may be a completely separate thing altogether.

Anyway, based on what has been said so far, it seems that some sort of Stat or Figured Stat would best represent this since stats cost points for increased ability and gives back points for decreased ability.

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

I'm not seeing a need for extra granularity here. That may be because I'm not seeing any overlap of the different kinds of manipulation. A limb with Limited (rough) Manipultion simply cannot perform some tasks, while a limb with Find Manipulation can. Certainly there might be some things you can do with Limited Manip and may be easier (or automatic) with Find Manip, but it all depends on the task.

[schir1964]

I'm not seeing a need for extra granularity here. That may be because I'm not seeing any overlap of the different kinds of manipulation. A limb with Limited (rough) Manipultion simply cannot perform some tasks, while a limb with Find Manipulation can. Certainly there might be some things you can do with Limited Manip and may be easier (or automatic) with Find Manip, but it all depends on the task.
Oh, absolutely. This mechanic would be geared towards the Sci-Fi type of campaign where there could be more tasks that need differing levels of manipulation due to the varioius alien ceatures that exist.

In such campaigns with various aliens, devices and situations that require having more manipulation would be more common that in a Gritty or Fantasy type of campaign.

- Christopher Mullins

[Checkmate]

I think I see what he's getting at here. Think of a fertility Doctor. In order to... do his job he needs to have microscopes, needles and microscopic tools (and for some guys that's just to get the sample :) ). Image if there was an alien who had apendages so tiny, and fine motor skills so well developed he could just pick up the egg and the sperm and stick them both together with his appendages.

Now let's go back to Hero's system of None, Rough, Fine. If someone with Rought minipulation tires to pick a lock, he would obviously get minuses. If we use Christopher's new system, should an alien that has better than "Fine" minipulation get a bonus to things like lockpicking?

[schir1964]

Checkmate has it exactly. And it is what I'm struggling with to figure out how such a thing should be handled as a mechanic.

- Christopher Mullins

[Checkmate]

Well looking at the Extra Limbs power, Limited Minipulation is a 1/4 Disad. You might make players take Extra Limbs with a +1/4 per level of Increased Minipulation. I'm not sure if there is somewhere it says what the minuses are to skills for limbs that have limited minipulation, but you could use the same number and increase it by that for each incriment.

[schir1964]

Well looking at the Extra Limbs power, Limited Minipulation is a 1/4 Disad. You might make players take Extra Limbs with a +1/4 per level of Increased Minipulation. I'm not sure if there is somewhere it says what the minuses are to skills for limbs that have limited minipulation, but you could use the same number and increase it by that for each incriment.
Yes, but this really doesn't help with determining what the worth the penalty/bonus should be.

This is another example of where there is one more mechanic that separated.

So we've got Limited Manipulation all over the place:
Character Disadvantage
Telekinesis (Subtractor)
Limbs (Limitation)
DEX (Limitation)

But we've got no Increased Manipulation examples anywhere.

So if we go with an actual Stat we might have the following:
Manipulation: 0 (Default)
Cost: 3 Points Per 1 Point Manipulation
Manipulation Stat is a direct modifier to handling objects.

What this base roll should be is another question.

Should it default to a DEX roll?

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

I think I"m confused on the mission - is it to deconstruct DEX or is it redefining, essentially, DEX?

As is, the system uses size and DEX for the sorts of things you talk about re an alien handling a cell, say, personally. Manipulation is part and parcel of DEX: if you have a 30 DEX, I think the system is reasonably straight-forward on this account, personally. If you get down to microscopic or handling other similarly tiny things, then it's really a matter of effective size (shrinking if you are not normally built that way). There might be other considerations, too. Of course, the system would encourage you to ask "why do you want to handle those cells," and if it's for an end result, it's probably some other skill (super-skill) or power. I dunno, I think it's tricky in the system because it's tricky as a game construct, period.

[schir1964]

I think I"m confused on the mission - is it to deconstruct DEX or is it redefining, essentially, DEX?...
Unfortunately, DEX only plays a part of it. And think it has been used only because there hasn't been any other mechanic even close to meeting that area, so DEX got the job.

Extra Limbs gives a Limitation for Limited Manipulation for those limbs. It doesn't mention DEX or anything other than STR in addition to having an influence.

Now for some source material references.

Star Trek: First Contact
Picard is touching the rocket's surface. Data touches the rocket's surface.
Picard can feel the texture, temperature, possibly dents and grooves.
Data can feel the tiny imperfections of the metal itself and sometime small fractures.

Obviously, he has enhanced sense of touch far beyond the normal human.

Where is the Enhanced Manipulation if such a creature were cabable of fixing those imperfections or sealing those fractures. There's nothing that says that in Science Fiction such creatures must be small.

And DEX offers no advantage for increasing Manipulation.

Just My Humble Opinion

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

The mechanic of being small is not the same as the SFX. One would theoretically get shrinking "only for touch" or such. I'm not forcing that, just saying is all.

Sounds more like sense, as to the above thing, it's interesting that the touch sense group's discriminatory doesn't go very far, it only gives "an effect of somewhat cruder degree" than the other senses. Although on reading it I'm not clear on what's meant by "Characters can make Normal Touch (or an entire Touch Sense Group) fully Discriminatory by paying the usual cost."

[Checkmate]

Zorwil,
If you had a character that took Limited Minipulation with a limb, and then tried to pick a lock with that limb, would you allow them to use a regular unmodified DEX roll? Most would apply a minus to the DEX roll to pick a lock with a limb that had the limited minipulation disad. However if you had a limb that had Limited Minipulation and they wanted to swat someone, no modification to the DEX roll. Swatting does not require the finesse that picking a lock does.

Now, if there is a way to limit minipulation, shouldn't there be a way to increase the amount of minipulation, which would in essense give a slight bonus to things like Lockpicking that required more finesse.

Chistopher,
After typing that out to Zornwil, I thought of this: What about Skill Levels? Do what they did with the new talents and call it Increased Minipulation, but base it off skill levels +1 w/DEX Based skills; Only skills that require Manual Dexterity -1(?). Then you would determine what the minuses would be on a case by case basis. What would the minuses be if a human were to try to pick up a single cell? Determine that and the characters that took Increased Minip would have a bonus to that roll.

[Dust Raven]

I've been thinking about this overnight and something has kind of occured to me. How is doing fine work on a smaller scale, "finer"? It's really just smaller and that's about it. On a smaller scale, there are tasks that someone with rough/limited manipulation could do, if they only had smaller paws (pick up/move an unfertalized egg for example). Since, for humans, doing such work on a small scale would require special tools, I'd suggest simulating an alien having such tools "build in" by buying the appropriate Skill Levels and Senses. If performing a certain Skill (or set of Skills) would normally require special tools, the alien that doesn't need those tools would just buy Penality Skill Levels to offset the penaltiy for not having tools and some Enhanced Senses (perhaps Microscopic) to see what he's doing.

[zornwil]

Zorwil,
If you had a character that took Limited Minipulation with a limb, and then tried to pick a lock with that limb, would you allow them to use a regular unmodified DEX roll?

If both limited manipulation and no lockpicking skill, I don't think I'd allow it, barring some other way to pick the lock.

If limited manipulation but you have lockpicking skill, I assume you have some SFX to support your lockpick ability, but depends on the character concept.


Most would apply a minus to the DEX roll to pick a lock with a limb that had the limited minipulation disad. However if you had a limb that had Limited Minipulation and they wanted to swat someone, no modification to the DEX roll. Swatting does not require the finesse that picking a lock does.

Now, if there is a way to limit minipulation, shouldn't there be a way to increase the amount of minipulation, which would in essense give a slight bonus to things like Lockpicking that required more finesse.

I don't see what's wrong with additional limited DEX or skill levels specific to "manipulation abilities."


Chistopher,
After typing that out to Zornwil, I thought of this: What about Skill Levels?

I swear, I didn't see that until after I typed skill levels above!


Do what they did with the new talents and call it Increased Minipulation, but base it off skill levels +1 w/DEX Based skills; Only skills that require Manual Dexterity -1(?). Then you would determine what the minuses would be on a case by case basis. What would the minuses be if a human were to try to pick up a single cell? Determine that and the characters that took Increased Minip would have a bonus to that roll.

[schir1964]

Okay, I'm going to address everyone's posts with this single one.

Dust Raven:
Again, you are absolutely right as a way to handle it for you games. But you came full circle to one of my primary goals. To have a unified mechanic to represent manipulation and easy to reference on a character sheet.

This difficulty I'm having is coming up with a mechanic that supports both negative/positive modifiers for the manipulation. A Stat/Skill seems to be the only mechanic that allows for this.

Okay, let's look at the ideas again.

Skill: Skills are generally available to anyone who wants to learn them. Plus, Skill s don't represent and "innate" ability very well since a skill mainly enhances not reduce your own innate ability to do something.

Talent: Thought about this one also and almost suggested it. But to do so, it would have to be unique type of mechanic since Talents should be beneficial and not detrimental. So we have a problem with repensenting a innate penalty with a Talent, just like a Skill.

Stat: Stats do represent innate abilities and also allow for negative/positive values.

Now if someone has a single unified construct in mind (Skill/Talent/Stat), please post it and I'll certainly look it over.

Note: Manipulation by itself shouldn't automatically grant a character a skill, just the ability to do something that might require tools or special appendages to accomplish. So Manipulation could be viewed as some sort of combination of DEX and Limbs with the current system. Manipulation requires that you have both.

Is there a reason why everyone is either ignoring or opposed to using a Stat to represent Manipulation?

- Christopher Mullins

[Checkmate]

A lot of times, people like to add stats for things that are already in the game (Blood Pool when we already have END things like that), so I shy away from this until there is NO other way to do it.

I think I like my first way best. If you have limted minipulation it's a -1/4 or physical limitation, and -3 (just made that number up) per level. If you have Imporved Minipulation +1/4 (either on Extra limbs, or naked based on Extra limbs) and it's +3 per level.

That's how I'd handle it. The real reason I'd stay away, is: How often is this actually going to come up? I don't see it being an issue very often, so why compicate something or add something to the game which will only really have an effect once in a great while.

[schir1964]

A lot of times, people like to add stats for things that are already in the game (Blood Pool when we already have END things like that), so I shy away from this until there is NO other way to do it.
I have no problem with that. I would expect this stat to only be used in Sci-Fi Campaigns that would need such thing more often. Just like Zornwil's Supernatural Stat that he uses for his campaigns.


I think I like my first way best. If you have limted minipulation it's a -1/4 or physical limitation, and -3 (just made that number up) per level. If you have Imporved Minipulation +1/4 (either on Extra limbs, or naked based on Extra limbs) and it's +3 per level.
That would work, but I don't like Extra Limbs as it is defined in the book. And if I just want to apply this modifier to the character's normal limbs, I then have to come up with sort of rational for how much normal limbs cost. So it gets kind of wonky using this method although I do like it's simplicity.


That's how I'd handle it. The real reason I'd stay away, is: How often is this actually going to come up? I don't see it being an issue very often, so why compicate something or add something to the game which will only really have an effect once in a great while.
Ever read the Well World books? (8^D)

It can be a major item in that type of campaign. One I would love to run with Hero, but due to Human Centric nature of the mechanics, I would end up developing a game that is "Based On Hero" but not really Hero. That's a lot of work just for single Campaign.

- Christopher Mullins

[Checkmate]

Everything is based on humans, or human-like characters. You need to have a base to start from, and in most campaigns human-like characters are the most prevelant. Everything is judged from that. Anything that is more useful than a human has is costs points, and anything less useful than a human has give back points. If a campaign is one where more things are radically different than human base, come up with a new base (might be easier to come up with a new game system :doi: ).

It doesn't matter how you price out extra limbs things can still be based off that cost. Let's say you have a humanoid creature with 20 flangies. You want to buy Increased Minipulation for 2 of their limbs. Let's say that you have Extra Limbs cost 5 points per limb. Take a naked +1/4 add based on 10 points.

[schir1964]

Everything is based on humans, or human-like characters. You need to have a base to start from, and in most campaigns human-like characters are the most prevelant. Everything is judged from that. Anything that is more useful than a human has is costs points, and anything less useful than a human has give back points. If a campaign is one where more things are radically different than human base, come up with a new base (might be easier to come up with a new game system :doi: ).
That was sort of my point. (8^D)

I wish I could run a Well World campaign with Hero, but it would be to much work.


It doesn't matter how you price out extra limbs things can still be based off that cost. Let's say you have a humanoid creature with 20 flangies. You want to buy Increased Minipulation for 2 of their limbs. Let's say that you have Extra Limbs cost 5 points per limb. Take a naked +1/4 add based on 10 points.
Actually, it does matter. Extra Limbs and Normals Limbs should cost the same per unit. But that's not the case and it will never be. The cost of Limbs is probably due to the influence of the Superhero nature of prior editions.

But that is neither here nor there.

I wouldn't mind applying that DEX, if DEX played a larger role in the Manipulation area.

- Christoipher Mullins

[zornwil]

Okay, I'm going to address everyone's posts with this single one.

Dust Raven:
Again, you are absolutely right as a way to handle it for you games. But you came full circle to one of my primary goals. To have a unified mechanic to represent manipulation and easy to reference on a character sheet.

This difficulty I'm having is coming up with a mechanic that supports both negative/positive modifiers for the manipulation. A Stat/Skill seems to be the only mechanic that allows for this.

Okay, let's look at the ideas again.

Skill: Skills are generally available to anyone who wants to learn them. Plus, Skill s don't represent and "innate" ability very well since a skill mainly enhances not reduce your own innate ability to do something.

Talent: Thought about this one also and almost suggested it. But to do so, it would have to be unique type of mechanic since Talents should be beneficial and not detrimental. So we have a problem with repensenting a innate penalty with a Talent, just like a Skill.

Stat: Stats do represent innate abilities and also allow for negative/positive values.

Now if someone has a single unified construct in mind (Skill/Talent/Stat), please post it and I'll certainly look it over.

Note: Manipulation by itself shouldn't automatically grant a character a skill, just the ability to do something that might require tools or special appendages to accomplish. So Manipulation could be viewed as some sort of combination of DEX and Limbs with the current system. Manipulation requires that you have both.

Is there a reason why everyone is either ignoring or opposed to using a Stat to represent Manipulation?

- Christopher Mullins

Of course, as you choose in your game is cool, but as to the idea of a stat for it, I just don't see a lot of use and I see a lot of overlap in most examples, that's the primary problem I have in getting my head around putting energy into it.

[schir1964]

Of course, as you choose in your game is cool, but as to the idea of a stat for it, I just don't see a lot of use and I see a lot of overlap in most examples, that's the primary problem I have in getting my head around putting energy into it.
<hehe>
This is what is a little frustrating.
This isn't about whether the system can adequately handle manipulation. Obviously, it can. But the methods to do so are all over the place and difficult to find on a character sheet, because it can be anywhere. (8^D)

I think I've made it clear already that I was simply looking for a unifying mechanic that would bring all these things together in a consistent way that would make it easy to refer to on the character sheet.

There is a question of the Super Fine Manipulation being absent from the system, but that easily created if need be.

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

But more fundamentally, I guess, what the real issue to me, personally, is, what is "manipulation'? SFX-wise of course I understand, but I'm not sure how to quantify it outside of dexterity and what one can reasonably manipulate physically, and it can be used in a myriad of game ways - from shapeshifting to skills.

[Dust Raven]

Okay, I'm going to address everyone's posts with this single one.

Dust Raven:
Again, you are absolutely right as a way to handle it for you games. But you came full circle to one of my primary goals. To have a unified mechanic to represent manipulation and easy to reference on a character sheet.

This difficulty I'm having is coming up with a mechanic that supports both negative/positive modifiers for the manipulation. A Stat/Skill seems to be the only mechanic that allows for this.
How hard is it to find the following?

Super-Fine Manipulation: +2 PSL versus lack of fine tools penalties

Increase to suit the level of Manipulation you'd like. The mechanic used is the rules for penalties due to lack of proper equipment (for a human). If a creature has such "tools" built in due to his ability to manipulate things on a finer scale, he buys PSLs to counter it. If he can manipulate things on such a fine scale the human eye cannot accurately see what is being manipulated, Enhances Senses (likely Microscopic) are added. Easy to adjucate, easy to find.

[schir1964]

But more fundamentally, I guess, what the real issue to me, personally, is, what is "manipulation'? SFX-wise of course I understand, but I'm not sure how to quantify it outside of dexterity and what one can reasonably manipulate physically, and it can be used in a myriad of game ways - from shapeshifting to skills.
Well, your question is actually a good indicator that Manipulation is a Stat, just like INT, EGO, PRE. END, and STUN. These are easy to understand SFX-wise, but when you come down to quantify them for a mechanic... what are they really? (8^D)

You created a Supernatural Defense stat. Why? Doesn't EGO already cover this and doesn't the system also handle this SFX in a myriad of ways? (8^D)

Manipulation is no different. Not much more I can say I guess.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

How hard is it to find the following?

Super-Fine Manipulation: +2 PSL versus lack of fine tools penalties

Increase to suit the level of Manipulation you'd like. The mechanic used is the rules for penalties due to lack of proper equipment (for a human). If a creature has such "tools" built in due to his ability to manipulate things on a finer scale, he buys PSLs to counter it. If he can manipulate things on such a fine scale the human eye cannot accurately see what is being manipulated, Enhances Senses (likely Microscopic) are added. Easy to adjucate, easy to find.
Yes, but do -PSLs give you back points?

Again, the goal: One unifying mechanic to represent different Penalty/Bonuses for easy reference.

Perhaps PSLs might work but I'm not sure how the negative levels would work?

Can you give me more?

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Well, your question is actually a good indicator that Manipulation is a Stat, just like INT, EGO, PRE. END, and STUN. These are easy to understand SFX-wise, but when you come down to quantify them for a mechanic... what are they really? (8^D)

You created a Supernatural Defense stat. Why? Doesn't EGO already cover this and doesn't the system also handle this SFX in a myriad of ways? (8^D)

Manipulation is no different. Not much more I can say I guess.

- Christopher Mullins

I'm not suggesting it's different "in your game" as I said earlier, I just can't get how it's going to be really applied in a way that, to me, would feel like DEX shouldn't be cheaper to compensate for having removed it, or some other similar sensation wtih overlapping skills (and would you define manipulation-based skills such as Lockpicking as no longer eligible to draw on DEX?).

[Dust Raven]

Yes, but do -PSLs give you back points?

Again, the goal: One unifying mechanic to represent different Penalty/Bonuses for easy reference.

Perhaps PSLs might work but I'm not sure how the negative levels would work?

Can you give me more?

- Christopher Mullins

Well, currently, less than full, humanlike, fine manipulation is a Disad, or a Limitation on Stretching or Extra Limbs is it only applies to those and is only rough manipulation (no manipulation would make these Powers completely useless). TK comes with rough manipulation automatically and needs an Adder to be made Fine. Better than full, humanlike, fine manipulation is bought with Skill Levels.

To unify Manipulation under a single mechanic, you need to change all of the above and keep it balanced and fair. That sounds like a lot of work and you're welcome to it. I'm happy the way things are. Issues of how manipulable something is or isn't don't come up often enough for me to worry about which mechanic I'm using.

[schir1964]

I'm not suggesting it's different "in your game" as I said earlier, I just can't get how it's going to be really applied in a way that, to me, would feel like DEX shouldn't be cheaper to compensate for having removed it, or some other similar sensation wtih overlapping skills (and would you define manipulation-based skills such as Lockpicking as no longer eligible to draw on DEX?).
Hmmm.... after thinking about this for a while this is what I think...

In Superheroic games, DEX has very little to do with actual Manipulation (via touch through appendages). The reason being that a person with no hands can be just as Dextrous without them. His eye beams aren't affected by no having Hands, therefore his OCV, DCV, and Initiative are all still intact.

There are only two things that in the book that even suggest that manipluation is association with DEX.

1) DEX description mentions, "anything that requires a fine touch or a steady hand"
2) Lockpicking Skill was assigned the Agility group.

in the first the mention of "Fine Touch" and "Steady Hand" would suggest manipulation, but in actuality it doesn't really have an effect, at least not by what I mean by "Manipulation".

For instance, a character can have Fine Touch or Steady Hand, without having hands. Somone who is wheelchair bound can have a Fine Touch in that they have fine control over the mechanism that controls the chair. By the same token, someone without hands could still be sharpshooter with a weapon mounted to his arm and thus have a Steady Hand.

The second appears to be simple after the fact assignment since DEX used the words "Fine Touch" and "Steady Hand". Makes sense, given the lack of any other choice available.

So I guess Manipulation has more to do with the type of appendage. It's well known that the opposable thumb allows one to manage certain feats where a lack of one would be very difficult. If one had two opposable thumbs perhaps certain other feats would be even easier, but this is speculation.

So, to me the system doesn't really show an association between DEX and Manipulation except in one instance, Lockpicking, but really shouldn't if there is were an alternative for Manipulation.

Just Some Meanderings

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Do you think you're taking fine touch and steady hand too literally? All the effects you describe with the wheelchair and without hands are still DEX-related, the shooting is based on OCV which is DEX-based, the control over the wheelchair sounds like a matter of dexterity to me - just isn't fingers, it's the control of the mind over physical timing and coordination. You'd use DEX the same way for toes, elbows, etc..

PS - furthered by the fact that, as you say, eye beams shooting are realy DEX-based, too, just not hands.

[schir1964]

Do you think you're taking fine touch and steady hand too literally? All the effects you describe with the wheelchair and without hands are still DEX-related, the shooting is based on OCV which is DEX-based, the control over the wheelchair sounds like a matter of dexterity to me - just isn't fingers, it's the control of the mind over physical timing and coordination. You'd use DEX the same way for toes, elbows, etc..

PS - furthered by the fact that, as you say, eye beams shooting are realy DEX-based, too, just not hands.
Well, here's the problem with that point of view, not that it doesn't make sense, but that the rules kind of fight against each other when it comes to defining manipulations.

Eye Beams and the ability to hit the target is a DEX based (OCV), granted. But how does Manipulation even factor into this. If you can see the target you can shoot and hit the target.

So let's presume that the character has 20/20 Vision. But he is clumsly and horrible with balance and has a low DEX to represent his clumslyness and shaky hands.

The character can still see just as well at 20 feet as before and if his power is, "Laser Beams shootout out my and hits whatever I'm looking at", then DEX has little to do with this power, but Manipulation of the Eyes do. Now what if the character's perception actually helps him hit the target. Now we are looking at INT as majore roll via the rules. So now we have INT and DEX fighting against each other for Eye Beams.

So is Focusing ones Eyes considered DEX or INT?

The same thing could be applied to "Steady Hand". What if EGO were actually a better definition to represent, "Iron will to hold one's hand still even while in excruciating pain", we now have DEX competing with EGO for a "Steady Hand".

I see all these things as form of Manipullation that isn't specific to one Stat listed as is.

Just My Humble Opinion

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

I guess, with all due respect I just don't see that.

[schir1964]

I guess, with all due respect I just don't see that.
Well there is no reason for you to have to see that. (8^D)
Why? Because I doubt you would have a need for such detail (Well World Campaign).

Just like I, up to this point, have rarely had a need for Hit Locations. Never used them, and never had a need for them. I've pretty much run four color superhero campaigns with the Champions/Hero system.

I just don't see how DEX actually has any substantial impact on manipulation with the rules as is. Only one skill would qualify as fine manipulation. DEX has more to do with ones whole body than any one part.

It also just occured to me that Manipulation is closely tied to the Touch Sense.
So perhaps Manipulation would grant bonus/penalties to the Touch Sense which should have a direct impact on the Lockpicking skill and any other skill that would require Super Fine Manipulation.

Have to think on that one for a bit.

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

The thing is, I just don't see how you can't see that manipulation is a subset of DEX in the rules as is. I don't mean that in any argumentative way, I mean it rather literally. We just come at this with fundamentally differeing interpretations of the useage and meaning of manipulation in HERO terms. Of course a steady hand "could" be a matter of EGO and could be defined as such, as could just about any sort of number of variations among how things are executed, but a steady hand = DEX to me quite clearly. If a character's eye beams shoot and things, that's DEX, any manipulation of his eyes being part and parcel. Of course, if PER plays a roll, that's additional or substituting, sure.

Again, not to convince you of anything or to suggest you shouldn't make manipulation something like a basic or derived char as you please if it helps you do things, just stating the difference.

[zornwil]

On a related note, I do agree that from a building block perspective the system would be more elegant/simpler potentially if we defined characteristics more as needed, as Doc Democracy has mentioned elsewhere. So whether it's "I'm steady-handed" or "I have fine manipulation" or whatever, if we define those as such instead of resting on these black box characteristic devices we now have, it would be clearer in this respect.

[schir1964]

The thing is, I just don't see how you can't see that manipulation is a subset of DEX in the rules as is. I don't mean that in any argumentative way, I mean it rather literally. We just come at this with fundamentally differeing interpretations of the useage and meaning of manipulation in HERO terms. Of course a steady hand "could" be a matter of EGO and could be defined as such, as could just about any sort of number of variations among how things are executed, but a steady hand = DEX to me quite clearly. If a character's eye beams shoot and things, that's DEX, any manipulation of his eyes being part and parcel. Of course, if PER plays a roll, that's additional or substituting, sure.

Again, not to convince you of anything or to suggest you shouldn't make manipulation something like a basic or derived char as you please if it helps you do things, just stating the difference.
No convincing is necessary. (8^D)

I understand why one would think that Maipulation is a subset of DEX. Any action that uses OCV will have to use some level of Maipulation. Thus, any real weapon or power that emits from the hands specifically will require some level of manipulation. But that is where the tie of Manipulation and DEX ends.

Actually, just ran across something that suggests that the Hero System actually separates Manipulation from DEX completely. Apparaently, Manipulation is directly tied to the abilities granted by Human Hands specifically.

Under Extra Limbs, they give a Limited Manipulation limitation for limbs, but then in the next paragraph:

If the Extra Limbs cannot exercise a character's full STR or DEX, the character may take a -1/4 Limitation on those Characteristics to reflect that...

So it seems that the rules separate out Manipulation from what DEX itself grants a character. However, when it comes to STR they specifically make sure you know that you must apply the limitations to the STR stat and not the Extra Limbs power.

This is what I was getting from the research of the rules, but this paragraph just cinched it.

- Chirstopher Mullins

[schir1964]

On a related note, I do agree that from a building block perspective the system would be more elegant/simpler potentially if we defined characteristics more as needed, as Doc Democracy has mentioned elsewhere. So whether it's "I'm steady-handed" or "I have fine manipulation" or whatever, if we define those as such instead of resting on these black box characteristic devices we now have, it would be clearer in this respect.
Yes, and that is what prompted me to research this. If I were to run a "Well World Campaign", DEX isn't going to cut it for Manipulation and with most modifiers for it strewn all over the place, it would make it hard to reference easily.

BTW: I think that the description "Steady Hand" for DEX was a mistake. I think they meant "Steady Aim" to be more precise. A character who is simply a round ball and shoots lazers could have a "Steady Aim", but no manipulation as normally think of.

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

No convincing is necessary. (8^D)

I understand why one would think that Maipulation is a subset of DEX. Any action that uses OCV will have to use some level of Maipulation. Thus, any real weapon or power that emits from the hands specifically will require some level of manipulation. But that is where the tie of Manipulation and DEX ends.

Actually, just ran across something that suggests that the Hero System actually separates Manipulation from DEX completely. Apparaently, Manipulation is directly tied to the abilities granted by Human Hands specifically.

Under Extra Limbs, they give a Limited Manipulation limitation for limbs, but then in the next paragraph:


So it seems that the rules separate out Manipulation from what DEX itself grants a character. However, when it comes to STR they specifically make sure you know that you must apply the limitations to the STR stat and not the Extra Limbs power.

This is what I was getting from the research of the rules, but this paragraph just cinched it.

- Chirstopher Mullins
I'm not sure I understand how the example says that - it simply says extra limbs are limited if they can't use DEX and STR. Without spending any extra, you get all the benefits. The rules on extra limbs, as you know, are not only vague but don't address any mechanical aspects of the limbs one would expect, such as extra attacks. They do allow some mechanical aspects which is some sort of vague "extra arms"; extra limbs are their own sort of black boxes, I do grant. As such, they are hard to derive much from.

[zornwil]

Yes, and that is what prompted me to research this. If I were to run a "Well World Campaign", DEX isn't going to cut it for Manipulation and with most modifiers for it strewn all over the place, it would make it hard to reference easily.

BTW: I think that the description "Steady Hand" for DEX was a mistake. I think they meant "Steady Aim" to be more precise. A character who is simply a round ball and shoots lazers could have a "Steady Aim", but no manipulation as normally think of.

- Christopher Mullins
Can you give more examples of the nuances of manipulation in Well World, just so I understand what makes this setting unique?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Can you give more examples of the nuances of manipulation in Well World, just so I understand what makes this setting unique?I can't speak to all the particular nuances that he might be thinking of, but the Well World is inhabited by 1560 different races, of which 780 are carbon-based lifeforms and 780 are not. Each has its own individual biosphere with its own environmental conditions, enforced technological level, and so on. The vast majority of even the carbon-based lifeforms are not even vaguely humanoid, and as for the non-carbon-based ones... the sky's the limit. Really wierd stuff. Some of these races... both carbon-based and otherwise... have very unusal abilities (by human standards). Psionics, some "magic", camoflague that verges on invisibility, shape-shifting, and so on. Some of them can do things like operate on individual living cells, or even DNA sequences, without external tools or artificial aids.

[schir1964]

Dr. Anomaly summarized it quite well.

The major point is, any of these races would available for any Player Character to become, since I would probably follow the same story line path of many of the books:

1) Characters live in normal space and are generally human or humanoid.
2) Characters get wisked off to the Well World due to unkown circumstances.
3) Characters get processed by the Well World computer and get transformed into one of the races.
4) Campaign ensues...

Trying to even attempt to model some of the Carbon-Based Lifeforms would be very difficult even for Hero. This is mainly due to the Human Centric bias the stats are based on.

It would be a lot of work to model the Campaign after the Well World and would be well worth it, but the races are the crippler for Hero.

A few descriptions of some of the Carbon-Based races:
Giant Flying Squirrels
Walking/Talking Trees
Mermen/Mermaids
Abomnible Snowmen
Centuars
Humans
Giant Beavers
Lizard Men
Cow Creatures (Six Legs, No Human Hands)
Ant-Like Creatures
Pygme Plant Creatures
Willo-the-Wisp Creatures
Dryad/Siren Type Creatures (Physical Not Necessarily Human)
Gelantenaous Type Creatures
Snake Men
ShapeShifter Creatures
Pteradactyl Type Creatures
Blue Furred Satyr Like Men (Cloven Feet, Human Hands, Rides Pegasus Type Creatures)
Markovians (Heart Shaped with Six Tentacles)
...

Many can be modeled easily, but some or more difficult, and few a are extremely difficult.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

I'm not sure I understand how the example says that - it simply says extra limbs are limited if they can't use DEX and STR. Without spending any extra, you get all the benefits. The rules on extra limbs, as you know, are not only vague but don't address any mechanical aspects of the limbs one would expect, such as extra attacks. They do allow some mechanical aspects which is some sort of vague "extra arms"; extra limbs are their own sort of black boxes, I do grant. As such, they are hard to derive much from.
I think it is very obvious.

Extra Limbs give a specific Limitation to apply to Extra Limbs to represent Limited Manipulation.
This is completely separate from the Limitations that must be applied to DEX if the Limbs don't have everything that DEX normally grants Extra Limbs...
Therefore, Limited Manipulation (or just Manipulation) must not be part of what they expect DEX to grant Extra Limbs or the limitation would have been applied to DEX instead of Extra Limbs.

That is my reasoning.

It is further enforced by the fact that nothing concerning STR as far as "Limited STR" is applied to Extra Limbs, but is applied to STR directly.

I think it is obvious, but perhaps I'm just jumping to conclusions. Could be just something completely arbitrary that was done in the rules. It's happened before. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Bump.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Bump.

- Christopher Mullins