M&M v. SAS d20?

[The_Hero]

Looking to see the difference between the two before I even think about buying.

Before anyone goes all frothy, I started with Hero and plan to stay with them, desptie the fact I can't find a game in my area, just want something to start others on before moving them to Champions...

[Lord Mhoram]

I prefer SASd20. I just generally don't like the combat mechanics of M&M. For character creations they both do okay. The M&M supplements are generally better (all two of them) but the SAS are cheaper.

Plus once Reality Storm comes out you can convert from HERO with an official conversion, if that is important to you. :)

[Tclynch]

SASd20 is...REALLY bad. Not worth it. M&M is where it's at for d20 supers. ;)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Tclynch
SASd20 is...REALLY bad. Not worth it. M&M is where it's at for d20 supers. ;)
You are depressing me now. SAS (d20) is the version I have. No wonder I did not like it. :)

Oh well, I was planning on buying the Tri-Stat version when Reality Storm hit the shelves anyway.

[Tclynch]

Originally posted by Monolith
You are depressing me now. SAS (d20) is the version I have. No wonder I did not like it. :)

Oh well, I was planning on buying the Tri-Stat version when Reality Storm hit the shelves anyway.
Yeah, thr Tri Stat version is the way to go with SAS. I KNOW it was playtested over on the Pyramid boards with lots of feedback. I suspect the d20 version was an afterthought/ quickly thrown together/ not playtested.

[Lord Mhoram]

I agree that compared to Tristat d20SAS isn't that great. Still better than M&M (Though just by a bit). All of these are so far above the new Marvel game....

And like Monolith, I bought Tristat to go along with Reality Storm.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram
I agree that compared to Tristat d20SAS isn't that great. Still better than M&M (Though just by a bit). All of these are so far above the new Marvel game....

And like Monolith, I bought Tristat to go along with Reality Storm.

Curious why you say SASd20 is better than M&M. I can IMAGINE, given that M&M combat is rather, uh, "dramatic" (too much one-punch possibility, but I fixed that in the charts and with some power fixes). SAS does do hit points and I noticed that the powers seem similarly "balanced" to that. But the classes thing really puts me off, seems like such a badly artificial construct. I have both books though have spent real time only on M&M.

[Lord Mhoram]

The classes thing didn't bug me. I was coming at it from a d20 perspective, where classes are the norm. The Adventurer class was pretty close to generic, just give it 5 pts a level rather than 15 every three. It also has to do with presentation.
I just didn't like the layout or the look of the M&M books, I didn't like the characters too much; whereas I loved almost all of the SAS characters. I'm sure that biased me to some extent.
I just don't like the M&M combat mechanic. SAS' is a little to loose and freeform to me, so the M&M was just a way too much in that direction. When it comes to combat I love hero. You can do a full mapout wargame-esque combat, or you can do it on the fly. When I get down and dirty I want the detail and options of the "wargame" feel of combat. I like the idea of Hero points (in fact I've been using them for years in my HERO games) but I dislike a combat system where they are required to make combat run correctly- I see them as "saving for that extra effort" rather than the "oops I blew my damage save, better spend a HERO point so I am awake for the fight". The Hero points in M&M are balanced within the system, and work for combat, but are just not to my flavor. For that kind of mechanic I like the action dice that were presented in Spycraft.
HERO is my game of choice, and I would actually never play another superhero game, just steal ideas and characters, and when I bought M&M and SASd20 it was to steal the powers rules to be added on to D&D (much like the Demigod rules for Rolemaster in the Ancient Greece sourcebook), and in that respect the SASd20 rules make a much better "plug and play" set than M&M.

[Lord Mhoram]

Another point, if you are looking for a game to run for die hard D&Ders/d20ers, SASd20 has a lot more in common with those than M&M do. If you are going to switch from d20 to M&M may as well take the extra step to go to HERO.

[Victim]

Really? M&M uses the normal d20 skill list, many of the same feats, the same status conditions, and many of. I'm far more familar with d20/DnD than HERO, and I picked up M&M very quickly. I played without the book for awhile. While the damage save mechanic, and point based character creation is different for MM, I thought SAS d20 got rid of feats and used the normal SAS skill list. I'd think that those changes would it harder for d20 fans to learn.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram
The classes thing didn't bug me. I was coming at it from a d20 perspective, where classes are the norm. The Adventurer class was pretty close to generic, just give it 5 pts a level rather than 15 every three. It also has to do with presentation.
I just didn't like the layout or the look of the M&M books, I didn't like the characters too much; whereas I loved almost all of the SAS characters. I'm sure that biased me to some extent.
I just don't like the M&M combat mechanic. SAS' is a little to loose and freeform to me, so the M&M was just a way too much in that direction. When it comes to combat I love hero. You can do a full mapout wargame-esque combat, or you can do it on the fly. When I get down and dirty I want the detail and options of the "wargame" feel of combat. I like the idea of Hero points (in fact I've been using them for years in my HERO games) but I dislike a combat system where they are required to make combat run correctly- I see them as "saving for that extra effort" rather than the "oops I blew my damage save, better spend a HERO point so I am awake for the fight". The Hero points in M&M are balanced within the system, and work for combat, but are just not to my flavor. For that kind of mechanic I like the action dice that were presented in Spycraft.
HERO is my game of choice, and I would actually never play another superhero game, just steal ideas and characters, and when I bought M&M and SASd20 it was to steal the powers rules to be added on to D&D (much like the Demigod rules for Rolemaster in the Ancient Greece sourcebook), and in that respect the SASd20 rules make a much better "plug and play" set than M&M.

Thanks Lord M.. Interestingly I felt quite the reverse on characters, most of the SAS ones super-bug me (that seems to be their super-power - the speedster just creeps me out, the generic good guy is too square-jaw, and the whole theme seems way too over-the-top "BE A HERO") although I do have an affection for Alice Queen of Hearts and will likely see her someday step into my games. The M&M ones I really liked, as mentioned in another thread.

SAS seems like a good system though, as I've leafed through it. It seems more granular for sure and balanced in a more HERO-esque way. However, that sort of motivates me not to bother with it, since if I'm going to try out a different system, I want it to be very different. The non-granular nature of M&M annoys me at times but at least I find it interesting. I expect that (players willing) I'll forge ahead with another 2-4 sesssions, more if we somehow end up liking it particularly, but I doubt that.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Victim
Really? M&M uses the normal d20 skill list, many of the same feats, the same status conditions, and many of. I'm far more familar with d20/DnD than HERO, and I picked up M&M very quickly. I played without the book for awhile. While the damage save mechanic, and point based character creation is different for MM, I thought SAS d20 got rid of feats and used the normal SAS skill list. I'd think that those changes would it harder for d20 fans to learn.

I've seen a lot of D&D players not even look at the total skill lists, just what thier class skills are. SAS just has a different list. A lot of players in my area have to be reminded about feats. They are mostly players that played 2nd. So a new skill list and lack of feats isn't as unusual as no classes, and no hit point.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by zornwil
Thanks Lord M.. Interestingly I felt quite the reverse on characters, most of the SAS ones super-bug me (that seems to be their super-power - the speedster just creeps me out, the generic good guy is too square-jaw, and the whole theme seems way too over-the-top "BE A HERO")

I think that is what I like. I stopped reading comics during the dark / gunmetal age- I came back with Astro City and Morrison's JLA. I've always been more of a DC guy than a marvel guy.
I'll take Superman and Wonder Woman over Spidey and the Hulk any day. I want Heros, bright shiny and nonconflicted. M&M just felt to marvel/image for me.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram
I think that is what I like. I stopped reading comics during the dark / gunmetal age- I came back with Astro City and Morrison's JLA. I've always been more of a DC guy than a marvel guy.
I'll take Superman and Wonder Woman over Spidey and the Hulk any day. I want Heros, bright shiny and nonconflicted. M&M just felt to marvel/image for me.

I don't care much for DC or Marvel 4-color although growing up I preferred DC to Marvel by a long shot. I think the M&M heroes are pretty bright and shiny, just not 1-dimensional like HERO's and SAS' TO ME MYSELF AND I - I don't mean to say by any means that you "should" like M&M's icons, I just mean to say that I don't think of them as anything less than real classical do-gooder guys, given Protonik and Lady Hex. They just seem more interesting to me.

By the way, I'll really have to read Morrison's JLA the concept of him doing anything that would be bright/shiny is pretty intrigueing since the stuff I read of his before was pretty dense and dark.

Lord M, by the way, what did you think of the DC big books, Shazam, Wonder Woman, Superman, Batman, etc.? I really have liked those and they seemed up your alley given your description.

Incidentally, I got back into comics due to Sandman and Flaming Carrot so clearly our interests are pretty different.

[Celtic Cowboy]

I want Heros, bright shiny and nonconflicted. M&M just felt to marvel/image for me.

It's interesting how different people can have such different responses to how they think a game is themed.

Granted I picked up D20SAS - read once - sold on Ebay.

But when I look at M&M and Champs I see M&M as the DC comics type of theme and see Champions as more suited to the Marvel/Image themes.

[Celtic Cowboy]

Originally posted by The_Hero
, just want something to start others on before moving them to Champions...

I would consider M&M for this for a few notable reasons. Despite it's OGL d20 core, it has several areas that remind me of (and where no doubt inspired by) certain HERO power constructs.

If you can get the new players to understand power extras and stunts in M&M, explaining multi-powers and elemental controls just got much easier. Or maybe it's if you understand MP's and EC's then power extra's and stunts make much more sense.

Throw in the fact that you can find Steve Kenson's list of HERO stat's for most of the characters in Freedom City and you've got a fairly easy conversion to show players how certain characters translate into different systems.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by zornwil

By the way, I'll really have to read Morrison's JLA the concept of him doing anything that would be bright/shiny is pretty intrigueing since the stuff I read of his before was pretty dense and dark.


It's not really shiny, but he hero are heroic, and when he started it, it was the big guns JLA team - Jonz, Superman, Bats, Wonderwoman, Flash, Green Lantern. No real character angst, other than that caused by the plot. Just action and more action.

As to what I like in current comics. I don't read much solo stuff, I go for team titles.
I read JLA, JSA, Legion from DC. I am trying out the new Outsiders and the new Teen Titans- I like the characters and the writers. I also get most of the elseworlds titles. Incidently the Legion back in the late 70s and all through the 80s was my favorite comic of all time.
Marvel- Exiles, Avengers. The occasional other title. I'm trying the Spidey/Wolvie right now, and the current wolverine storyline looks sort of cool. I also get the Ulitmate line in trade paperback.
Right now all the best stuff is being put out by crossgen. I read Sigil, Solus, Scion, Negation, Crux, Way of the Rat and the Crossovers. I also read a few others like PS238, Dork Tower, Nodwick and such.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Celtic Cowboy

But when I look at M&M and Champs I see M&M as the DC comics type of theme and see Champions as more suited to the Marvel/Image themes.

I detest the feel of the Current Champs Universe. I still pretty much use the 4th edition versions of characters and feel. While ready CU the body count of heroes is just way too high. I pretty much change any Killing attack in a character to an EB. I feel only one every 20 or so characters should have a Killing attack. So I impose that ratio on my version of CKC. I buy Hero for the system, not the universe.

I have freedom city, but haven't really read it yet.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Celtic Cowboy
I would consider M&M for this for a few notable reasons. Despite it's OGL d20 core, it has several areas that remind me of (and where no doubt inspired by) certain HERO power constructs.

If you can get the new players to understand power extras and stunts in M&M, explaining multi-powers and elemental controls just got much easier. Or maybe it's if you understand MP's and EC's then power extra's and stunts make much more sense.

Throw in the fact that you can find Steve Kenson's list of HERO stat's for most of the characters in Freedom City and you've got a fairly easy conversion to show players how certain characters translate into different systems.

The Kenson stuff is a true help, but FWIW SAS "looks" more HERO-esque in its more granular approach than M&M, FWIW.

[Celtic Cowboy]

Originally posted by zornwil
The Kenson stuff is a true help, but FWIW SAS "looks" more HERO-esque in its more granular approach than M&M, FWIW.

Maybe it was just levels and classes that soured my opinion before I could read much further. :p