Ok, this is a Stargate question?

[TheRavenIs]

1. Just how many symbols are on the gate in the show?
2. How many combos can be generated?

The reason that I ask is that I might want to add a Stargate System into a game I might do in the future. I want it to have a simular feel of SG1 and Atlantis.

Thank You all for any imput on this.

[Nolgroth]

Well on this pic (http://www.pixelbarrel.com/toys/stargate-set1.jpg), I counted 18 down clockwise and 15 down counter-clockwise (total 33 + a few obscured). The ramp obscures the very bottom. On this pic (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technologies_de_Stargate) I count 39. I would say 39 is a fair estimate. As to how many combinations, how many different symbols need to be "hit" in order to open a gate? Do all gates connect only with the other gates or does a gate from Earth hit 39 other gates and a gate on another planet hits 39 worlds, but only a portion corresponde to the gate on Earth? Potentially, there is an unlimited number of gates that can be made, but an easy max limit would be to use the number of symbols that need to be hit in order to open a gate as an exponent of the base 39. For instance, if three symbols need to be hit, then 39*39*39 (59,319 potential combinations) would be a fair number to start with. I should think that would be more than enough worlds to start with.

[TheRavenIs]

Actually you only can use 38*39*39 or 57798, you always have to use the symbol of Earth as the last symbol so that reduces the number of symbols that can be used. I might be wrong on the math.

[Nolgroth]

Actually you only can use 38*39*39 or 57798, you always have to use the symbol of Earth as the last symbol so that reduces the number of symbols that can be used. I might be wrong on the math.I doubt you are wrong. My math sucks. Still a lot of worlds. :)

[TheRavenIs]

Yeap, more than I'd ever create. Again thanks for the info.

[Nolgroth]

Pleasures mine.

[TheRavenIs]

The reason I wanted to know the number of worlds was to make sure that I could do 'almost' anything and still feel that I wasn't short-changing myself.

[Nolgroth]

Well you can build up 20-30 worlds and then add as necessary to fill in the blanks. You can add a aworld a session and still have plenty more options before the campaign sputters and dies.

Besides, there will be a certain versimilitude develop when the characters travel back to previously explored worlds for whatever reason. If I were to start my own campaign again, I might consider Stargates as an alternative or addition to space flight. :) Sure easier to get the players between points in space.

[TheRavenIs]

What I think I was going to do was set up a closed Stargate system, limited worlds but if you find the needed 'parts' you can expand the number of worlds.

In the game we have going now, a modifed Champions that has Earth entering the Stellar Age, we have a simple gate system, not for people but for ships.

How do you do the spoiler bit? I want to post this but I have two PC's that are on the boards. I'd hope they wouldn't look.

[Dr. Anomaly]

You'll probably find this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_%28device%29) quite useful, as among other things it includes a complete listing of symbols, how they're used, and so on.

[TheRavenIs]

Thanks once again the the Dr.

[EvilDrPuma]

There are, in fact, 39 glyphs--38 constellations plus a unique point of origin on each 'gate.

The point of origin is always the last glyph in an address, so you don't need to count it for purposes of calculating the number of possible combinations. Because the rest of an address within the same galaxy always consists of six nonrepeating glyphs, the total number of possibilities is (38 x 37 x 36 x 35 x 34 x 33) = 1,987,690,320.

[TheRavenIs]

There are, in fact, 39 glyphs--38 constellations plus a unique point of origin on each 'gate.

The point of origin is always the last glyph in an address, so you don't need to count it for purposes of calculating the number of possible combinations. Because the rest of an address within the same galaxy always consists of six nonrepeating glyphs, the total number of possibilities is (38 x 37 x 36 x 35 x 34 x 33) = 1,987,690,320.

Wow!!! Thank you for that info.

[Inu]

However, the addresses aren't just like phone numbers. Reference is made to them being coordinates, in which case each symbol may have to be used in a particular place (one symbol might have to be used in one position and might not be able to be used in another, for instance).

But then, there aren't enough symbols for it to be a true galactic coordinate system, so there's some fudging going on there (as with a lot of the other goofiness from the film).

[CrosshairCollie]

There are, in fact, 39 glyphs--38 constellations plus a unique point of origin on each 'gate.

The point of origin is always the last glyph in an address, so you don't need to count it for purposes of calculating the number of possible combinations. Because the rest of an address within the same galaxy always consists of six nonrepeating glyphs, the total number of possibilities is (38 x 37 x 36 x 35 x 34 x 33) = 1,987,690,320.

And best of all, if you end a game with a team heading through the Stargate, you can say you ended the session with a glyph-hanger. ;)

[Jhamin]

There are millions of possible addresses, but it is well established on the show that these are coordinate systems. 90+% of them don't correspond to another gate and are therefore useless. They tried dialing random addresses for years without getting any result.



If you want to really bend your noodle, consider this:

The Stargate's have 9 Chevrons.

All "short" range travel in the milky way has taken place using seven addresses.
An eighth Chevron can be activated if you have a big enough power supply. This allows travel between gate networks in separate galaxies. This is how the characters from Stargate: Atlantis got to the Pegasus Galaxy, and has been used once or twice to go to the Asgard homeworld.

Where, exactly, the ninth Chevron allows you to go has never been explored.

[EvilDrPuma]

Where, exactly, the ninth Chevron allows you to go has never been explored.

The Ancients included the ninth chevron as a security precaution to keep travelers from accidentally ending up in East St. Louis.

[Basil]

Ok, this is a Stargate question?
Yes, it's a Stargate question. HTH, HAND.


:winkgrin:

[AmadanNaBriona]

There are millions of possible addresses, but it is well established on the show that these are coordinate systems. 90+% of them don't correspond to another gate and are therefore useless. They tried dialing random addresses for years without getting any result.



If you want to really bend your noodle, consider this:

The Stargate's have 9 Chevrons.

All "short" range travel in the milky way has taken place using seven addresses.
An eighth Chevron can be activated if you have a big enough power supply. This allows travel between gate networks in separate galaxies. This is how the characters from Stargate: Atlantis got to the Pegasus Galaxy, and has been used once or twice to go to the Asgard homeworld.

Where, exactly, the ninth Chevron allows you to go has never been explored.


Ever play "Fringeworthy"?
:sneaky:

[Thia Halmades]

How about Sliders?

Who says the 9th Chevron has to correspond to Space? Why not Time?

[Cancer]

How about Sliders?

:sick: The 9th Chevron is for home delivery of White Castle burgers? You, sir, are a sick man.


;)

[Thia Halmades]

Hey, there's something to be said about not just fast, but FTL Food (and considering the flavor of White Castle food, it wouldn't suprise me if that's the sort of thing served on cheap FTL flights). ;)

I've found lately I can't abide fast food - almost like I've outgrown it. While I love the occassional double whopper, I prefer my own cooking (although I'm a sucker for Fried Chicken to this day).

[Cancer]

Hmm. I can see it now ... the sequel to Ninja Burger (TM), Eternity Pizza! Free delivery, any time, any place!

[Thia Halmades]

*chuckle* Now that's good stuff right there. If I didn't think it wouldn't stay down I'd want a pizza, but the vicodin is playing havok with my system.

[Curufea]

To me, the ninth chevron's purpose is to increase the amount of permutations possible to further add security.
If you know nothing of the stargates, you may not even know which chevrons need to be set. Or in what order. Hence the 9th chevron adds another multiple to the possible permutations.

[EvilDrPuma]

To me, the ninth chevron's purpose is to increase the amount of permutations possible to further add security.
If you know nothing of the stargates, you may not even know which chevrons need to be set. Or in what order. Hence the 9th chevron adds another multiple to the possible permutations.

That makes sense only if (like the Air Force) you were trying to dial a gate using your own computer and power source. A Dial Home Device automatically dials the chevrons in the correct sequence, and it seems pretty clear that the Ancients intended for a DHD to be the standard and universally available power source/operating system for a Stargate. It's just a matter of chance that DHDs have occasionally been misplaced or destroyed over the few million years since the Ancients set up the network.

[Erkenfresh]

Raven, it sounds like you'll need to write up 2 billion planets for your campaign. You might want to get started, just so you'll be preapred. :winkgrin:

[Curufea]

That makes sense only if (like the Air Force) you were trying to dial a gate using your own computer and power source. A Dial Home Device automatically dials the chevrons in the correct sequence, and it seems pretty clear that the Ancients intended for a DHD to be the standard and universally available power source/operating system for a Stargate. It's just a matter of chance that DHDs have occasionally been misplaced or destroyed over the few million years since the Ancients set up the network.


True. Possibly the ninth could do with the realm the Ascended currently inhabit? Although the gates were built before they had ascended....

[Badger]

Well I dont watch the show much. But, I always got the impression that some of the matches could lead to nowhere (deep space). Could narrow it down a bit. I do remember in the movie that it was 6 symbols for where you were going and then 1 symbol for where you were coming from.

[Badger]

Ahh, I see someone beat me to it. Oh well. :thumbup:

[EvilDrPuma]

True. Possibly the ninth could do with the realm the Ascended currently inhabit? Although the gates were built before they had ascended....

Maybe. Personally, I wonder if it's just an expansion slot that never got used.

[moquif]

I'm not an expert on the show, but if the last chevron is the point of origin, then how can there be more than 39 gates? Otherwise you'd have the same symbol for multiple points of origin.

Actually, why would you need to encode a point of origin at all? The gate itself is the point of origin. I'm a computer programmer IRL and one of the many things I've learned is that you don't ask the user for more information than you have to. It's just another thing they can screw up.

[sinanju]

I'm not an expert on the show, but if the last chevron is the point of origin, then how can there be more than 39 gates? Otherwise you'd have the same symbol for multiple points of origin.

Actually, why would you need to encode a point of origin at all? The gate itself is the point of origin. I'm a computer programmer IRL and one of the many things I've learned is that you don't ask the user for more information than you have to. It's just another thing they can screw up.

Quiet, you! I love the series, but there are questions into which one should not look too closely...because they don't hold up.

Personally, in MY mental picture of the Stargate universe, there are several big differences in how stargates work:

1. The "address" is the equivalent of an IP address or a cell phone number, not a physical location determined by coordinates/constellations. You dial P3X-459 and you get THAT gate and ONLY that gate, no matter where it is.

2. Stargates do NOT repeat NOT tear you into subatomic particles and spray you across space. They BEND SPACE so that you do, in fact, literally step across countless lightyears in a single bound.

3. Going along with 2 above, there is no "buffer" in which a person can be trapped.

4. The SGC does NOT repeat NOT give planets stupid names like P3X-459. Col. O'Neill was exactly right when he said, in response to Carter's technobabble excuse for such silly names, "Oh, well, that makes them _much_ easier to remember." (And even if they did use alphanumeric codes, you can't tell me that the grunts wouldn't hang nicknames on the planets that we viewers would overhear.)

[Thia Halmades]

Why not both?

In other words, let's say you're correct, and a series of coordinates does correspond to a Gate in that area - 3D triangulation, which is the whole point, yeah? Yeah. Good. So why not make that the 'universally understood system' regardless of where the gate is? If you dial 215, and I have a Philly phone, then it won't matter if I'm in Philly or on Mars, so long as there's a signal tower to get me the call. So both can work.

Bad names are a sci-fi trope, including but not limited too "LX 409" or whatever they called the terraformed world in ALIENS. I personally thought that the Star Trek system made the MOST sense - Star, Planet by Distance. Hence we're "Sol III." Totally reasonable, and comparatively easy to remember.

The buffer amuses me, but I agree it's a bit hokey. I don't have a problem with being broken down and shot like an HVM, at the same time, I don't have a problem with the thing literally bending space into place and just having the trip be traumatic.

[Dr. Anomaly]

I'm not an expert on the show, but if the last chevron is the point of origin, then how can there be more than 39 gates? Otherwise you'd have the same symbol for multiple points of origin.

Actually, why would you need to encode a point of origin at all? The gate itself is the point of origin. I'm a computer programmer IRL and one of the many things I've learned is that you don't ask the user for more information than you have to. It's just another thing they can screw up.
Since the actual gate address is only 6 characters, and the point of origin glyph differs with each gate (and presumably then with each matching DHD) I don't see a problem as far as being limited to only 39 gates.

This does raise the issue, though, of mixing & matching gates and DHDs which has in fact been done in the series, and I don't offhand recall them saying anything about altering the DHD for the unique symbol on it to match the unique symbol on the gate. Then again, if the symbol that differs is always in the same place on the DHD... that may not matter.

I'm a programmer, too, and I've been wondering about this a bit. (Why need a "point of origin" glyph to be entered in at all?)

One thought that came to me was this:

So far, it's been "one gate per world"... and we've been told that's the way it has to work, that if there's more than one gate, one will end up "primary" and the other off-line... as was the case with the Giza gate being used at the SGC being the primary even though the Antarctic gate was on Earth at the same time. Apparently this that while the Antarctic gate had a DHD (which is supposed to make a gate primary over one that doesn't, like the SGC's Giza gate), it's DHD wasn't working correctly.

Now... we know the Ancients (and some of the other races still around, like the Asgard) can do things with gates that we 21st century humans can't (yet). So... that got me to wondering...

What if the Ancients COULD have more than one functioning gate on a world at a time if they wanted to? In that case... when you're dialing using a DHD (as the two -- gate and DHD -- don't seem to be physically connected)... how does the DHD know WHICH of the gates to send to? (Or to send the 'all coordinates entered, punch it' signal.) Well, if the last coordinate was the 'point of origin' glyph, that would uniquely identify, on a world with more than one active gate, WHICH gate the DHD was supposed to be talking to.

As to why it's still required when there's only 1 gate on a world?

Um... because the programmers didn't see the need to put in a check and then let a 6-coord address be used if there was only one gate on the world?

Second thought as to why:

If the 'point of originl glyph says "I'm done entering things" (and then the 'punch it' large red button is pressed) this could be the signal to the gate to let you enter in a longer address (such as for intergalactic transit).

What I mean is this:

Normally, you enter 6 glyphs for the desitnation, the point of origin glyph, and hit "enter".

Now, what if the 7th glyph you enter ISN'T the point of origin glyph? The the gate knows you're dialing "long distance" because you've not yet used the "I'm done dialing from this gate" key symbol (the point of origin glyph). Using the point of origin glyph as the 8th symbol says that you're dialing long distance, have entered the address you want, and are now ready to "punch it".

Thoughts?

[Cancer]

I can imagine schemes where the "point of origin" glyph is more like a "checksum" or "hash value" entry ... something that actually has no bearing on location at all, just a defense against bad data. With an intelligently-devised checksum system, for any small data set, those checksums should be unique to location.

[sinanju]

Why not both?

In other words, let's say you're correct, and a series of coordinates does correspond to a Gate in that area - 3D triangulation, which is the whole point, yeah? Yeah. Good. So why not make that the 'universally understood system' regardless of where the gate is? If you dial 215, and I have a Philly phone, then it won't matter if I'm in Philly or on Mars, so long as there's a signal tower to get me the call. So both can work.

Because the universe is just big bleeping big, is why. Most gates are going to be so far away that we can't even SEE the stars around that planet. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Plus that whole "the universe is expanding and the galaxies are turning" thing. Any race with as long-term a view of things as the Ancients would have taken that into account. No, a "phone number" or "IP address" system makes a lot more sense. IMHO. YMMV. Etc.


Bad names are a sci-fi trope, including but not limited too "LX 409" or whatever they called the terraformed world in ALIENS. I personally thought that the Star Trek system made the MOST sense - Star, Planet by Distance. Hence we're "Sol III." Totally reasonable, and comparatively easy to remember.

Stargate successfully avoided a lot other bad sci-fi tropes, so why go with this one? At the very least, they could have generated a long list names that could be easily pronounced (and remembered) and simply gone down the list, applying them to each world they successfully dialed--kind of like giving names to Hurricanes.

It's address P3X-459 until they get a hit. Then they look at the list and see that the next available name is "Rimmerworld." Rimmerworld it is, then. Or even--gasp!--give each planet the name used by the LOCALS they meet when they exit the Stargate. What a concept!

Or assign each glyph on the gate a syllable so you can string them together into a word. Then the NAME of the planet is also the ADDRESS of the planet. Makes it a lot easier to remember how to get there....

The buffer amuses me, but I agree it's a bit hokey. I don't have a problem with being broken down and shot like an HVM, at the same time, I don't have a problem with the thing literally bending space into place and just having the trip be traumatic.[/QUOTE]

[Curufea]

I believe the symbols change on each stargate - hence there can always be a unique point of origin symbol.
As the symbols represent constellations of stars as seen from the planet's surface (except for the point of origin symbol which is not symbolic of a constellation).

At least, they did in the movie.

[Thia Halmades]

Dr A - the concept behind a Point of Origin, IIRC, is that you need to identify six points in space, then cross section those six points across three axes - X, Y & Z. The Point of Origin, plus another point in the distance, creates the X axis; then two parrell points above & below, left & right - thusly creating a singular point in space.

Is that a bit hokey? i.e., can we simply claim six points in space and dial whatever is in the middle? Yep, but I see where it made dramatic sense to have the system know a point of origin, which would reasonably allow you to build a physical 'course' - the counter being if we're dealing with machines that CUT HOLES IN SPACE then having a 'point of origin' ala mapquest is a little archaic. But I like the feel of it.

[EvilDrPuma]

I believe the symbols change on each stargate - hence there can always be a unique point of origin symbol.
As the symbols represent constellations of stars as seen from the planet's surface (except for the point of origin symbol which is not symbolic of a constellation).

At least, they did in the movie.

That's one of those things that was abandoned for the TV series. It would have been too cumbersome for SG-1 to go through the rigmarole of deciphering a whole new set of constellations on every planet before they could dial home. The series also retconned the premise that Abydos is in a far distant galaxy; to explain how it was possible to dial Abydos in the movie despite ten thousand years of stellar drift, the pilot episode placed it three hundred light years away and made it one of the closest planets to Earth in the Milky Way gate network.

Over the course of a few seasons, and probably inadvertently, the show did find a sort of justification for the universal glyphs--it appears that the coordinates for all gates in the Milky Way derive from constellations seen from Earth because Earth was the (adopted, it now seems) homeworld of the Ancients. We just ignore the little problem where those constellations would have changed a few million years after the Ancients set up the system. We also ignore the fact that, if all but one symbol are identical on all Stargates, there really isn't a need for a unique point-of-origin glyph on each gate.

The Pegasus galaxy gates on Stargate Atlantis do use "local" constellations, however--presumably as seen from the planet where Atlantis was placed. Each galaxy with a Stargate network has its own set of glyphs.

[Thia Halmades]

Sounds like dialing home would be a bit of a nightmare then, eh?

[TheRavenIs]

I read this and wonder how a small question on the number of symbols has become more. I love this place.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Dr A - the concept behind a Point of Origin, IIRC, is that you need to identify six points in space, then cross section those six points across three axes - X, Y & Z. The Point of Origin, plus another point in the distance, creates the X axis; then two parrell points above & below, left & right - thusly creating a singular point in space.
Yes, I know about the 6 coordinates being points on 3 lines to define a unique location in space. But with 7 symbols in an address, and the last symbol always being the point of origin symbol for the gate you're using, I've never really been fully satisfied with any of the explainations I've seen or read.

[Dr. Anomaly]

I can imagine schemes where the "point of origin" glyph is more like a "checksum" or "hash value" entry ... something that actually has no bearing on location at all, just a defense against bad data. With an intelligently-devised checksum system, for any small data set, those checksums should be unique to location.
I've been thinking about this a lot today, and discussing it with a couple of other friends over meals and such... and the checksum may be the best solution. A bunch of the other proposals (including some I speculated about above) don't hold water, thanks to at least one pair of episodes. (Yes, I know... if something's established as canon in 99 episodes, looked at a lone divergence indicates this is fiction and they occasionally screw up, and not reality where is has to make logical sense all the time, but bear with me.)

At the end of season 1, SG1 was on one of a pair of ships that Apophis was brining to Earth to wipe it out. During the first episode of season 2, they manage to plant explosives that destroys one ship and sends the flaming hulk careening into the second ship, destroying it as well. Everyone except Daniel escape via a pair of Deathgliders. Daniel had been badly injured and had to be left behind. He ended up managing to get to a sarcophogus, get healed, and get to the stargate being carried on that ship and dial out just before the ship exploded.

Not long thereafter, he returned to the SGC, and explained to General Hammond that he'd dialed the coordinates for the Alpha Site (where personnel were being evaced to and setting up a new base). He said he realized that after the ship dropped out of hyperspace it was close enough to Earth to use Earth as a point of origin for dialing, and so he was able to escape.

This would seem to fit the idea of the checksum that Cancer has proposed, and would indicate that the point of origin DOES have something to do with a particular location in space... or why the necessity of using Earth's point of origin code when he was dialing?

This does bring up several problems, though.

First... since the point of origin glyph is supposed to be unique to each gate... how was Daniel able to dial Earth's point of origin symbol on a gate the presumably had its own point of origin glyph which would of course be different from the gate on Earth?

Also, we've seen that gates can be moved and used at new locations. (This is demonstrated in numerous episodes, not just this one in which the gate is on board a hyperspace-capable ship.) If the unique point of origin glyph is tied to a particular location in space... that's a problem for a LOT of episodes.

Now, I don't know the answer to this, and it's never occured to me to check: did the original gate they used (uncovered at Giza) have the SAME point of origin symbol as the gate they discovered in Anarctica? Both were "Earth" gates. If the symbols are the same, this would tend to indicate there IS something about a particular location in space that goes with a given symbol... and we run headlong into the issue of gates being moved between star systems and still being functional. If they are different, this would indicate each gate does indeed have its own unique point of origin glyph, which means the "tied to a particular location in space" would be difficult to make work as a hypothesis.

If they DID have different point of origin symbols, it was never mentioned in the show in on-screen dialogue. It would be easy enough to check... just watch a complete dialing sequence from any episode after they had to switch to using the Antarctic gate when the original was taken from the SGC.

(I suspect the symbols ARE in fact the same, for budegetary reasons. They have so many pre-canned dialing sequence shots, both of the gate and of the dialing computer display, that I can't imagine they'd redo them all just for the Antarctic gate having a different point of origin glyph -- it wouldn't be in the budget. If that's the case and the two gates DO have identical point of origin glyphs, it would seem that each WORLD has its own unique identifier, and the gate put on that world is coded with that identifier... which brings us back around to the issue of moving gates between star systems and having them still work.)

[Inu]

2. Stargates do NOT repeat NOT tear you into subatomic particles and spray you across space. They BEND SPACE so that you do, in fact, literally step across countless lightyears in a single bound. Yes, definitely. I would take this view as well, if I were runing. The de-rez/re-rez thing is very Trek, and very bad trek if my opinion. Bendin/warping/quantum tunnelling space is a lot more cool, in my opinion.
3. Going along with 2 above, there is no "buffer" in which a person can be trapped.YES! Thankyou! I liked the drama in the ep, but the particular technobabble excuse was stupid. The 'event horizon' is not a separate membrane. ;.; This is as bad as Voyager detecting cracks in an event horizon. Event horizons are not physical things, or barriers, or anything, any more than the outline of a shadow is an object!

In my opinion, the 'buffer' was just another Trekism adopted due to the hegemonic nature of Trek writing. Same as Trek taking over every time they stepped onto the bridge of the Prometheus.

[Inu]

(I suspect the symbols ARE in fact the same, for budegetary reasons. They have so many pre-canned dialing sequence shots, both of the gate and of the dialing computer display, that I can't imagine they'd redo them all just for the Antarctic gate having a different point of origin glyph -- it wouldn't be in the budget. If that's the case and the two gates DO have identical point of origin glyphs, it would seem that each WORLD has its own unique identifier, and the gate put on that world is coded with that identifier... which brings us back around to the issue of moving gates between star systems and having them still work.)
It's well-established that there are only two gate props -- the one in the SGC and the one they use for off-world. The off-world one is always the same gate, and it doesn't move. Any shots of a spinning inner ring is spoofed from the SGC gate. So yes, you have to step beyond what's literally shown on the gate to make things work, or, yes, you're limited to 39 gates total in the network.

[moquif]

I had a weird thought a few minutes ago so I haven't had time to think it through. (In other words, this could be total garbage, but when inspiration hits you have to go with it.) Instead of a coordinate system, the 7 chevrons are for a vector. So the command the stargate gives is, "I am here and I want to go in this direction, which stargate matches up?". It's not an eingen vector, the symbols are a code that allows for 3 or more stargates to be colinear. The 8th chevron is a sort of multiplier. (Or even a special code that signals, "Use the Pegasus stargate system" since there are just 2 that we know of.) The Ancients couldn't work a universal positioning system into their gates so you have to tell it were you're working from.

Actually the chevrons don't have to represent a coding system at all no more than gate numbers at an airport. Each address is unique to each gate. Otherwise the address you dial will be different for every planet you visit.

Here's another question that's been bugging me. Where does the iris go when it's open and how does it form that flower-like thing in the center?

[Yansuf]

Now, I don't know the answer to this, and it's never occured to me to check: did the original gate they used (uncovered at Giza) have the SAME point of origin symbol as the gate they discovered in Anarctica? Both were "Earth" gates. If the symbols are the same, this would tend to indicate there IS something about a particular location in space that goes with a given symbol... and we run headlong into the issue of gates being moved between star systems and still being functional. If they are different, this would indicate each gate does indeed have its own unique point of origin glyph, which means the "tied to a particular location in space" would be difficult to make work as a hypothesis.


I seem to recall Carter saying it had a different symbol.

[sinanju]

Yes, definitely. I would take this view as well, if I were runing. The de-rez/re-rez thing is very Trek, and very bad trek if my opinion. Bendin/warping/quantum tunnelling space is a lot more cool, in my opinion.YES! Thankyou! I liked the drama in the ep, but the particular technobabble excuse was stupid. The 'event horizon' is not a separate membrane. ;.; This is as bad as Voyager detecting cracks in an event horizon. Event horizons are not physical things, or barriers, or anything, any more than the outline of a shadow is an object!

In my opinion, the 'buffer' was just another Trekism adopted due to the hegemonic nature of Trek writing. Same as Trek taking over every time they stepped onto the bridge of the Prometheus.

Yeah, I HATE the direction the series has gone in the last few years. What made Stargate so interesting early on was that it the humans had only ONE maguffin--the stargate itself. Otherwise, they were exploring the universe and fighting the goa'uld with contemporary weapons and tools. And the absence of spaceships made it impossible for the writers to get lazy and fall back on Trek-type cliches accumulated over the last 40 years.

Now, I think it's neat that they've stolen or borrowed or captured or reverse-engineered some of the ultra-tech they've encountered over the run of the series. I like that. But I hate it that the more time they spend flying around in spaceships* the more the show looks and sounds and feels like a lame rip-off of Star Trek.

*Even in the pilot they acknowledged that goa'uld had spaceships and could get to earth "the old fashioned way" if they had to--but that it would take months. There's a reason why everyone preferred stargates.

Now ATLANTIS--in another freaking galaxy--is a puny three weeks away by starship. THREE WEEKS.

[Armitage]

*Even in the pilot they acknowledged that goa'uld had spaceships and could get to earth "the old fashioned way" if they had to--but that it would take months. There's a reason why everyone preferred stargates.

Now ATLANTIS--in another freaking galaxy--is a puny three weeks away by starship. THREE WEEKS.

I think the Earth ships use Asgard hyperdrives. They're Porches to the Goa'uld's VW Beetles. The Asgard live in another galaxy and have no trouble stopping in to visit Earth regularly.

[The Rose]

I've been thinking about this a lot today, and discussing it with a couple of other friends over meals and such... and the checksum may be the best solution. A bunch of the other proposals (including some I speculated about above) don't hold water, thanks to at least one pair of episodes. (Yes, I know... if something's established as canon in 99 episodes, looked at a lone divergence indicates this is fiction and they occasionally screw up, and not reality where is has to make logical sense all the time, but bear with me.)

At the end of season 1, SG1 was on one of a pair of ships that Apophis was brining to Earth to wipe it out. During the first episode of season 2, they manage to plant explosives that destroys one ship and sends the flaming hulk careening into the second ship, destroying it as well. Everyone except Daniel escape via a pair of Deathgliders. Daniel had been badly injured and had to be left behind. He ended up managing to get to a sarcophogus, get healed, and get to the stargate being carried on that ship and dial out just before the ship exploded.

Not long thereafter, he returned to the SGC, and explained to General Hammond that he'd dialed the coordinates for the Alpha Site (where personnel were being evaced to and setting up a new base). He said he realized that after the ship dropped out of hyperspace it was close enough to Earth to use Earth as a point of origin for dialing, and so he was able to escape.

This would seem to fit the idea of the checksum that Cancer has proposed, and would indicate that the point of origin DOES have something to do with a particular location in space... or why the necessity of using Earth's point of origin code when he was dialing?

This does bring up several problems, though.

First... since the point of origin glyph is supposed to be unique to each gate... how was Daniel able to dial Earth's point of origin symbol on a gate the presumably had its own point of origin glyph which would of course be different from the gate on Earth?

Also, we've seen that gates can be moved and used at new locations. (This is demonstrated in numerous episodes, not just this one in which the gate is on board a hyperspace-capable ship.) If the unique point of origin glyph is tied to a particular location in space... that's a problem for a LOT of episodes.

Now, I don't know the answer to this, and it's never occured to me to check: did the original gate they used (uncovered at Giza) have the SAME point of origin symbol as the gate they discovered in Anarctica? Both were "Earth" gates. If the symbols are the same, this would tend to indicate there IS something about a particular location in space that goes with a given symbol... and we run headlong into the issue of gates being moved between star systems and still being functional. If they are different, this would indicate each gate does indeed have its own unique point of origin glyph, which means the "tied to a particular location in space" would be difficult to make work as a hypothesis.

If they DID have different point of origin symbols, it was never mentioned in the show in on-screen dialogue. It would be easy enough to check... just watch a complete dialing sequence from any episode after they had to switch to using the Antarctic gate when the original was taken from the SGC.

(I suspect the symbols ARE in fact the same, for budegetary reasons. They have so many pre-canned dialing sequence shots, both of the gate and of the dialing computer display, that I can't imagine they'd redo them all just for the Antarctic gate having a different point of origin glyph -- it wouldn't be in the budget. If that's the case and the two gates DO have identical point of origin glyphs, it would seem that each WORLD has its own unique identifier, and the gate put on that world is coded with that identifier... which brings us back around to the issue of moving gates between star systems and having them still work.)


This is what I imagine the Last Gate symbol is, and why it is "Called" the point of origin.


It has been made clear in many episode that the gates automatically line themselves up in relation to other gates. And that the only reason why this wouldn't occur is if there was no DHD to make the Conection. So think of the DHD as a homing becon for ever other. As long as it is hooked up it will continuely update its memory with the current intersteller adresses periodically.

We Know that the first Six symbols are for defining where in space you are going. But instead of considering them staight coordinates think of them as a logic problem. If you have a spell check that automatically tries to assume what word you writting, this is similar. You defind the first symbol and the DHD automatically eliminates 38/39 of its coordinates as possiblities and continues to do this. It isn't making a Three dimentional address but rather anticipating what you want like spell check.

The reason why it asks you about the "home adress" is little more than a safty protocol. It is to insure that you know how to properly congigate what your spelling. And you don't Necessarily only have 39 possible home adresses. It is just giving you a multiple choice question. IT defines its part of space into 39 diferent 'local adresses and asks you for the proper one. Also the Home symbol is never used in earlier adresses so the DHD assumes that once you indicate your home adress(even if it is by accident) you are done and will try and dial. IT the address isnt possible it ignores your intry. Hence the reason why SGC spent all those years with only one success before they relized that they had to enter not only the correct home address but do it in the correct order.


That is what I think at least if you see any "holes" in my idea please let me know so I can account for them.


La Rose.

[Inu]

Yeah, I HATE the direction the series has gone in the last few years. What made Stargate so interesting early on was that it the humans had only ONE maguffin--the stargate itself. Otherwise, they were exploring the universe and fighting the goa'uld with contemporary weapons and tools. And the absence of spaceships made it impossible for the writers to get lazy and fall back on Trek-type cliches accumulated over the last 40 years.

Now, I think it's neat that they've stolen or borrowed or captured or reverse-engineered some of the ultra-tech they've encountered over the run of the series. I like that. But I hate it that the more time they spend flying around in spaceships* the more the show looks and sounds and feels like a lame rip-off of Star Trek.

*Even in the pilot they acknowledged that goa'uld had spaceships and could get to earth "the old fashioned way" if they had to--but that it would take months. There's a reason why everyone preferred stargates.

Now ATLANTIS--in another freaking galaxy--is a puny three weeks away by starship. THREE WEEKS.
Yah, they kinda forgot about that as soon as first season was over. I mean, it took Apophis an entire year to get his strike fleet together (since he was a feudal leader, so he had to raise Jaffa from all over the place -- he didn't just have 'em at his beck and call) and what he ended up with was two motherships. Later on, system lords can whistle and dozens of ships respond immediately. Nice and epic, but the prevalence of ships made the Stargate less cool.

No, actually, that's not entirely true. I woudln't have minded the ships, except that every time they stepped on board one, Trek writing took over. When they started saying 'shields at x%', I cringed. That, and they never updated the original low-budget goa'uld bridge, with its painted-cardboard control pedestal.

It was like a rule. 'Props on the bridge must suck.' So even when they were on Cronus' ship, his big throne looked like painted polystyrene.

And I never liked the idea of 'this is a ship with hundreds of crew! But, yes, one person can operate it from the bridge, in the total absence of anyone else present.'

But I understand it's hard to get away from Trek writing. It's hegemonic -- when people think 'so, what do we have happen in this bridge scene', Trek is the first thing they think of, and doing something different is difficult, it's going against the flow.

[sinanju]

No, actually, that's not entirely true. I woudln't have minded the ships, except that every time they stepped on board one, Trek writing took over. When they started saying 'shields at x%', I cringed. That, and they never updated the original low-budget goa'uld bridge, with its painted-cardboard control pedestal.

Exactly! I don't mind the props--I can't stand the way it turns into "Trek" whenever they BEAM ABOARD a spaceship.

They have ring transporters (okay, fine, the original movie had those). They have Asgard transporters. Shields (that routinely crumple like wet cardboard, complete with "Shields down to 30 percent!" reports as you mentioned). They have "sensors" that work remarkably like Star Trek-style sensors, including "life sensors". I hate those.

They get into space battles. The ship shakes. People fall out of their chairs. They use technobabble solutions to overcome technobabble problems.

Ships warp in and warp out (okay, jump into and out of hyperspace) at will, crossing the galaxy in hours or days, and reaching another bleeping galaxy in three weeks.

Gah!


And I never liked the idea of 'this is a ship with hundreds of crew! But, yes, one person can operate it from the bridge, in the total absence of anyone else present.'

Yes! Why do you have so many people on the ship if it requires so few to run it? And why do all repairs consist of replacing a few crystals or rerouting software controls? Why don't we ever hear about them having to cut away debris and rebuild walls, ceilings, floors, ductwork, wiring...you get the picture.


But I understand it's hard to get away from Trek writing. It's hegemonic -- when people think 'so, what do we have happen in this bridge scene', Trek is the first thing they think of, and doing something different is difficult, it's going against the flow.

Yeah, but they get paid damn good money to be creative. I wish they'd earn it, the way they used to before they started copying Trek.

[Yansuf]

Actually, the largest difference between the original and later that I can think of is that in the series pilot, the gate was two way; Apothos and his Jaffa walked back through it after their attack/recon of Earth without redialing.

[EvilDrPuma]

Actually, the largest difference between the original and later that I can think of is that in the series pilot, the gate was two way; Apothos and his Jaffa walked back through it after their attack/recon of Earth without redialing.

Yeah; that's since been acknowledged as a continuity goof, and it has never been repeated.

[MPT]

You may find this link http://home.kendra.com/urania/stargate_sg1/sg1_font_glyph.htm (http://home.kendra.com/urania/stargate_sg1/sg1_font_glyph.htm)useful - it has a copy of the gate glyphs as a truetype font.

[bigdamnhero]

Speaking of retcons: I haven't seen the movie in years but I seem to remember that going through the gate was described as extremely cold, and everyone came out the other end all frosted. I understand why they didn't want to bother with that every week of the series, but was there ever any attempt to explain it away? Or am I remembering it wrong?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Speaking of retcons: I haven't seen the movie in years but I seem to remember that going through the gate was described as extremely cold, and everyone came out the other end all frosted. I understand why they didn't want to bother with that every week of the series, but was there ever any attempt to explain it away? Or am I remembering it wrong?
They had that in the first couple of episodes of the series, as well, and they sometimes emerged from the stargate as if they'd been thrown by something, landing hard and rolling down the steps. It was explained this (the frost and the rough landings) were caused by tiny misalignments of the gate / gate coordinates, quickly corrected by updates to the dialing program / database and by the installation of "stabilizers" on the gate itself (which also did away with the physical shaking that used to make the whole room tremble when the gate was connecting).

[bigdamnhero]

They had that in the first couple of episodes of the series, as well, and they sometimes emerged from the stargate as if they'd been thrown by something, landing hard and rolling down the steps. It was explained this (the frost and the rough landings) were caused by tiny misalignments of the gate / gate coordinates, quickly corrected by updates to the dialing program / database and by the installation of "stabilizers" on the gate itself (which also did away with the physical shaking that used to make the whole room tremble when the gate was connecting).
Actually as technobabble rationalizalizing goes...that ain't too bad. Thanks. :thumbup:

[moquif]

I asked my friends (who are self-professed Stargate experts) some of these questions and they did try to explain them, but it was more in the "well it makes sense from a show production" standpoint and not a "this is how the stargate really works" standpoint. One compared it to the episode in the Simpsons when Homer was on the Ichie and Scratchie show and dealt with an obsessive fan in a Q&A session. I summarized their explaination as "Shut up and enjoy the show". Or to quote the MST3K intro, "If you're wondering how he eats and breaths, and other science facts, la la la, just repeat to yourself 'it's just a show, I should really just relax'!"

[bigdamnhero]

But I understand it's hard to get away from Trek writing. It's hegemonic -- when people think 'so, what do we have happen in this bridge scene', Trek is the first thing they think of, and doing something different is difficult, it's going against the flow.
Even worse, there seems to be a belief in Hollywood that sci-fi fans are preconditioned to equate "Trek" with "how things really will be in a few centuries." So they're worried it will jar people's suspension of disbelief if shields don't act the way they're used to seeing shields act, etc. Not saying the idea makes sense, mind you. :rolleyes:

Tho to be fair, Stargate on a bad day still does Trek a darn site better than Trek itself has for years...


I summarized their explaination as "Shut up and enjoy the show". Or to quote the MST3K intro, "If you're wondering how he eats and breaths, and other science facts, la la la, just repeat to yourself 'it's just a show, I should really just relax'!"
If that works for you, fine. But personally I've always thought that explanation is just a big cop-out to excuse bad writing. If any "real world" TV show had airplanes flying backwards, or characters walking from New York to Paris, no one would say "Oh, it's just TV; don't sweat it." But when sci-fi shows do things just as ridiculous, it's suddenly okay and anyone who points out the obvious is an obsessive geek.

Again, no offense intended; if "it's just a show" works for you, more power to you. But forgive me for wanting my sci-fi to be slightly more plausible than the crappy B-movies being skewered on MST3K. :)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Again, no offense intended; if "it's just a show" works for you, more power to you. But forgive me for wanting my sci-fi to be slightly more plausible than the crappy B-movies being skewered on MST3K. :)
Reminds me of when Tim Allen's character in Galaxy Quest blew up at the group of geek kids who wanted to talk to him about inconsistencies between a couple of episodes.

(On a side note, since the Thermians actually built the ship to work and act the way it was depicted on the show... once has to wonder what kind of backflips they had to go through to get inconsitences to give them a working ship, and still work they way things said they did in conflicting episodes.... since they were taking the "historical documents" as fact. Man those guys must be SOME engineers!)

bigdamnhero, did you mean perhaps consistent rather than plausible? I don't know how plausible a lot of this stuff is, but internal consistency matters to me a lot, when discussing shows like this. :)

[bigdamnhero]

bigdamnhero, did you mean perhaps consistent rather than plausible? I don't know how plausible a lot of this stuff is, but internal consistency matters to me a lot, when discussing shows like this. :)
;) I meant "plausible" as opposed to "realistic." Wanna have FTL travel, artificial gravity, and all the rest? No problem. Just please try to have it act in a way that makes some kind of sense on any level other than "the script requires it." So it might have been more precise for me to say "plausible within the ground rules established by the show." But to me that goes beyond just internal consistency. To make up a silly extreme example, if every week our heroes went for a space walk without space suits or oxygen (barring some technobabble explanation of why they can do so), that would be internally consistant, but still fail to pass the Bright Five Year Old test.

I'm not asking for hyper-realism here, but 5 minutes of thought and/or research doesn't seem like asking too much.

[Dr. Anomaly]

;) I meant "plausible" as opposed to "realistic." Wanna have FTL travel, artificial gravity, and all the rest? No problem. Just please try to have it act in a way that makes some kind of sense on any level other than "the script requires it." So it might have been more precise for me to say "plausible within the ground rules established by the show." But to me that goes beyond just internal consistency. To make up a silly extreme example, if every week our heroes went for a space walk without space suits or oxygen (barring some technobabble explanation of why they can do so), that would be internally consistant, but still fail to pass the Bright Five Year Old test.

I'm not asking for hyper-realism here, but 5 minutes of thought and/or research doesn't seem like asking too much.
Okay, I see that... and I'll accept that, and agree with you! ;)

[Jhamin]

If they DID have different point of origin symbols, it was never mentioned in the show in on-screen dialog. It would be easy enough to check... just watch a complete dialing sequence from any episode after they had to switch to using the Antarctic gate when the original was taken from the SGC.

Actually, it was mentioned on the show that the Antarctic gate has a different point of origin symbol. In the episode it was discovered O'Neil and Carter are accidental sent to it rather than the home gate. Not recognizing the point origin symbol, Carter assumed they were on a distant planet.

(It should be noted that the Antarctic gate is actually Earth's original gate. It was build by the Ancients and left behind when the Migrated to the Pegasus Galaxy. When it froze under polar ice the Gould replaced it with the one later found in Giza.)


Of course, for Budgetary reasons, the stock footage isn't changed for the two different gates.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Actually, it was mentioned on the show that the Antarctic gate has a different point of origin symbol. In the episode it was discovered O'Neil and Carter are accidental sent to it rather than the home gate. Not recognizing the point origin symbol, Carter assumed they were on a distant planet.

(It should be noted that the Antarctic gate is actually Earth's original gate. It was build by the Ancients and left behind when the Migrated to the Pegasus Galaxy. When it froze under polar ice the Gould replaced it with the one later found in Giza.)
Yes, and there's some speculation it may in fact be the oldest of all gates.

I know the episode in question, having watched it several times, but I've not gone back to check the dialoge and watch for any mention of the point of origin symbol. I assumed at the the time I first watched it that it must have a different symbol, otherwise you'd think that Carter would have recognized something was fishy right from the beginning.

[Curufea]

Perhaps the seventh symbol isn't "point of origin" but "which gate".
Meaning a planet could contain up to 39 gates.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Perhaps the seventh symbol isn't "point of origin" but "which gate".
Meaning a planet could contain up to 39 gates.
I suggested that a bit earlier in the thread, but there are some things that I'm not sure could be made to fit that idea.

[Hunter]

Actually, the largest difference between the original and later that I can think of is that in the series pilot, the gate was two way; Apothos and his Jaffa walked back through it after their attack/recon of Earth without redialing.

No, since the Gate shut down after Apophis and his troops came through.

They could have manually dialed the gate. We don't know precisely, since when the Earth reinforcments arrived, the Gate had been reactivated. However, in the previous scene, Apophis did say something to his Jaffa and indicated the Stargate with a nod of his head.

[EvilDrPuma]

Perhaps the seventh symbol isn't "point of origin" but "which gate".
Meaning a planet could contain up to 39 gates.

Funny thing, though, Earth is the only planet that has ever been shown to have more than one gate--and that was really only because the original (the Antarctica gate) became inaccessible. You might think that multiple gates would be desirable, if only to have a backup or because a Stargate is really a pretty lousy deal for deploying strategic or large tactical forces...but until the Ori started trying to set up supergates in season 9, that never came up.

[Dr. Anomaly]

I just checked the first season episode with the Antarctica gate... "Solitudes". They do in fact explicitly say the point of origin symbol on the Antarctic gate is different from the Giza gate. (The point of origin symbol on the Antarctic gate is a large, solid circle with a small bar to one side.)

[Inu]

Even worse, there seems to be a belief in Hollywood that sci-fi fans are preconditioned to equate "Trek" with "how things really will be in a few centuries." So they're worried it will jar people's suspension of disbelief if shields don't act the way they're used to seeing shields act, etc. Not saying the idea makes sense, mind you. :rolleyes: *twitches* Yes, you're probably right. That would explain a lot.


Tho to be fair, Stargate on a bad day still does Trek a darn site better than Trek itself has for years... Seconded. Stargate on its worst day is better than the average NouveauTrek.



If that works for you, fine. But personally I've always thought that explanation is just a big cop-out to excuse bad writing. If any "real world" TV show had airplanes flying backwards, or characters walking from New York to Paris, no one would say "Oh, it's just TV; don't sweat it." But when sci-fi shows do things just as ridiculous, it's suddenly okay and anyone who points out the obvious is an obsessive geek.

Again, no offense intended; if "it's just a show" works for you, more power to you. But forgive me for wanting my sci-fi to be slightly more plausible than the crappy B-movies being skewered on MST3K. :)

Hear hear. There are people who take things too far, but that's not a reason to dismiss all such complaints. Some are valid... unless you lack, as many producers seem to, any respect for the medium you're working in. 'Jeez, it's not Shakespeare.' I HATE it when people say that. Sure, it's not high art... but that doesn't mean you can skimp. Have some pride in the work you do, and some respect for your fans.

[Brother Jim]

Shakespeare wrote most of his stuff for the masses, if I remember right.

And it wasn't considered "literature" until a long time after he had died.

[bigdamnhero]

Shakespeare wrote most of his stuff for the masses, if I remember right.
Absolutely right. But he didn't use that as an excuse to just write any old crap.