Links to high-lim Powers

[TaxiMan]

What do you think about Linking power sets to a single, highly limited Power? Here's two examples from a character with the fundamental ability to see 10 seconds into the future:

1. Clairsentience, 0 END Persistant, No Range, Precog only, Only Sees 10s in the Future (-2)

Linked powers: DEX, SPD, lotsa Luck (for weird Precog effects), N-Ray Vision (only places a person could see 10s from now), PRE defense, Flash defense, Mental defense (all "only if avoidable by a Normal").

Basically, this approach generates a cheap Precog (using the -2 lim), since all the effects of Precog are bought outright. There's very little it adds to the character in game play. But, all those powers get the -1/4 lim Linked. Nice cost savings, subject to having Precog Drained or something.

2. Clairsentience, 0 END Persistant, No Range, Precog only, Only Sees 10s in the Future (-0)

Linked powers: DEX, SPD. No purchase of other powers, assume the Precog is good enough.


There is a large difference in cost between the two. What are your thoughts, Herodom?

[Hugh Neilson]

My first thought is that anyone placing that limitation on a large amount of powers had better expect to see his Precog shut down on semi-regular occasions. You get a huge point savings, you will see it come into play.

My second thought is that, with 1 second phases, 10 seconds is a long time in combat.

[Duke Bushido]

How is this power being used?

Would it be better modeled just to go with Danger Sense?

[TaxiMan]

Hugh - I was trying to contrast 2 approaches, one with no limitation and one with a large limitation. With no limitation, I'm proposing that the Power is very flexible and can do stuff you'd expect reasonably. The large limitation approach has all the expected effects paid for separately, meaning the Precog isn't doing anything for you anymore (thus the large lim). Surprisingly, the "large lim" approach cost a lot more.

Duke - Danger Sense was also purchased - I should have included it in the list of stuff. There's more, but I figured many of them should be purchased no matter which way I go. DS for example, seems to be stretching the bounds of what I'd ask Precog to provide "for free".

I was trying to ask a more general question - how do you feel about (a) paying for everything you could do from a base SFX that is also a Power vs. (b) buying the base Power unlimited and expecting to get game use from it.

[TaxiMan]

As far as having the Power shut down regularly - good point. If I buy every effect I expect from a SFX, why should I buy the SFX Power at all? After buying everything I expect from a short Precog, buying the actual Power is really only there for flavor. It's mostly up to the GM to apply it IMO.

Also, -1/4 isn't much of a Lim, comparable to Power Armor guy, OIH guy, or some such.

In this particular case, I'd be spending 38cp on a Precog for flavor. It grants about that many points from the -1/4 Lim applied to various derived Powers (don't have the character here with me).

It seemed an interesting discussion.

[TaxiMan]

Hey Duke - what does your sig mean / where's it from?

[Duke Bushido]

On re-reading, I realized (I think) what you were asking:
forgive the nature of this question; I don't mean it to sound anywhere near as offensive as it tends to be amongst gamers:

You were asking about the effectiveness of particular kinds of munchkin builds, correct? Such as, in this case, "cheap" characteristics by linking them to a power that is effectively 'on' whenever the character wants it to be (barring drains, dispells, etc). Is this correct?

In which case, I tend to review them on a case-by-case. In my own experience, in most cases, the 'savings' is a bare minimum, and often just a fiction. In these cases, I may let them slide as a 'flavor' thing.

That's the GM point of view.

As a player, I don't make many characters like that (unless the GM is doing something that requires a wierd build, of course) as I find that often times what is ultimately happening is that the character is 'paying' for what would otherwise be a simple special effect.

To run with your example above, you could simply buy the higher stats with the sfx being that as he can see into the future, he always has time to prepare to be at his absolute best for the next thing he is going to do.


The other side of this is actually the biggest pitfall of HERO: the tendency to over-think builds. That is to say, when a group of HERO fans gets asked a question like "How do I build this?" invariably it's going to get pricey (if only for a while) because someone somewhere will include ever possible thing that the power, SFX, or device might be capable of, given it's nature.

While it's a minor problem-- usually the price comes back in line when the subject gets back on track (generally with a comment like: yes, it _could_ do that, but it doesn't, so let's not buy all that other stuff, too ;) ), it's major drawback is the arguments that slow down the game :D


As for my sig line,

I love black humor, or rather, what is now called Dark Humor, black humor now reffering to Def Comedy Jam et cetera.

One of the most wonderfully dark and pun-filled (another personal weakness) yet light-hearted and comedic movies I have had the privilege of seeing was a movie called "Highway to Hell."

the particular line I use in my sig is actually _not_ funny, or appropos of anything in the scene. But the sense of anticipation that it created the first time I saw that movie has made it most memorable to me.

[TaxiMan]

Thanks! "Highway to Hell" - I'll see about catching it. It sounds like something I'd want to see.

About the Hero question - basically, my specific example has it pretty expensive to buy a ton of Powers to do everything
I want my Precog SFX to achieve. So buying Precog in that situation is just icing on the cake - I don't expect it to come into play unless the GM wants it to. Thus Precog gets "-2: mostly useless".

The other Powers logically go away if Precog gets shut down, thus the Linked (at -1/4) limitation makes sense. Occasionally (e.g. 8-) the PC will expect to lose his powers.

I was contrasting that situation to the cheaper way to go, buying Precog with no limitations. Then I might not have to buy N-Ray vision to model knowing which filing cabinet drawer has the secret plans. I'd expect to open them all & look - if I could find it in 10s, I'd "see" which cabinet to open right off the bat.


Maybe the real question is: what benefit is fully-paid-for Precognition?

[ghost-angel]

I'm not sure I'd actually place a value on the Linked at all (making it a -0 Limitation). Essentially the Precog allows him to see 10 seconds into the future, regardless of the importance of that ten seconds.

So, an Instant Power that allows Constant Powers to be used, I'm assuming, for that 10 second duration they looking into the future with. Constantly looking into the future they essentially never "turn off" and thus - aren't linked so the Power so much as the idea of "I've got incredible reflexes because I know you're going to throw that knife at me in seven seconds and I have a better chance of getting out of the way"

I wouldn't allow it.

[Duke Bushido]

Fully paid-for Precognition is of dubious value. No; I should select a better word, as dubious has too many negative connotations. Sadly, I can't think of one.

Precognition-- unrestricted, is so extremely subject to the GM's decisions and discretions that the 'utility' of it will vary greatly from table to table, and likely will vary from SFX to SFX or genre to genre at the same table. While I hold my breath that *that* discussion won't take over your thread, Precognition is, to my own group, a lot like ShapeShift. That is to say that it is very often better modeled as the SFX of another or a group of other powers. Sometimes nothing else will do, of course, but still---

more than most powers, the value of precog is soley in the hands of the GM.

Played too litterally, it can completely wreck a plot; played to vaguely, the player feels pretty raw about the points he 'wasted.'

[TaxiMan]

I wouldn't allow it.

If the GM never affected the Precog, the Linked wouldn't be worth a cost savings. Assuming that from the GM, I'd agree. However, if a player of mine had this setup, I think Capt. Chronos would show up occasionally & mess up the Precog (and thus all the Linked powers). Or something similar; I like being creative.

[TaxiMan]

Duke, I'm in agreement with you re: Precog is 95% a SFX for a power set. That's why I prefer the long list of powers with a cheap Precog thrown in for flavor. Limit it with "mostly useless" or NCC, I don't care.

Having said that, wouldn't the powers linked to Precog fail to work if NCC was selected? One of those GM/player negotiations I'm sure...

[Duke Bushido]

Forgive me; I'm up too late, and am drawing a blank:

NCC?

(of course, soon as I read it, I'll have to do that forehead smack thing....)

[TaxiMan]

I'm making it up as I go along too. I think it's No Concious Control (i.e. the GM controls it).

[Duke Bushido]

Ah, then---

NCC puts the power entirely in the hands of the GM and his methods. Some GMs wing it; some have definate systems or use random rolls to determine how and what goes on when something is NCC.

Putting NCC on Precog--- already one of (if not _the_ ) most GM-controlled character trait(s) in the game...

well, odds are you'll never have it when you really, really want it; that much you can be sure of. You know-- cinematic effect, etc.

As for your question, I would think that the definition of Linked would mean that yes, when Precog was turned off (for whatever reason)then you would not have access to the powers that were linked to Precog.

Now this would get really interesting if you chose to Link powers that are Instant, especially if they are not continuous, in that once you noticed your Precog is on, you'd have to use the power, and hope the Precog was still on when you want to use the power again. You'd have a seriously fritzy EB. Of course, you could be using the extra STR to hold up a girder.... Then precog goes out.....

Now if you Linked a second NCC power to the first NCC power.......

It'd be ---

harsh....

[pinecone]

As far as having the Power shut down regularly - good point. If I buy every effect I expect from a SFX, why should I buy the SFX Power at all? After buying everything I expect from a short Precog, buying the actual Power is really only there for flavor. It's mostly up to the GM to apply it IMO.

Also, -1/4 isn't much of a Lim, comparable to Power Armor guy, OIH guy, or some such.

In this particular case, I'd be spending 38cp on a Precog for flavor. It grants about that many points from the -1/4 Lim applied to various derived Powers (don't have the character here with me).

It seemed an interesting discussion.
Yeah to me "Precog" is just SFX...if you take lims then expect to face "Power dampers" and weird chemical sprays that block precog and etc.....

[Dust Raven]

Linking to Precog leaves me with that touched-by-a-munchkin feeling, but without the smell. Um... what I mean to say is it sounds like a weird way to save some points, but spending a lot of extra points to do so. That and I'm not entirely sure how what you've suggested (in either example) would actually end up representing (the mechancs don't really match the SFX).

One thing you might consider is buying the Precog (which cannot take a Limitation for only seeing 10 seconds into the future; 10 seconds into the future would be the same as buying the Precog to a single time), then buying a handful of other stats all with Linked and NNC. Then the GM doesn't need to knock out the Precog to take away the other abilities. This matches SFX better, because they other abilities will only apply during times when knowing the future would allow for that kind of action or bonus. Completely at the GM's descretion of course. :)

[Ockham's Spoon]

I think this depends on what you want your precog power to do. If you want to consciously look into the future so you can protect yourself from ambush, avoid potential pitfalls, or make a killing in the stock market, then you want Clairsentience with the Precog adder.

If you want a similar effect, but unconscious or vague, then go with Danger Sense.

If you want an unconscious level of precog that has the effect of giving you lightning fast reflexes, etc, then buy all the separate powers; precog is just the SFX.

You should not get any link bonus for the separate powers because they aren't really "linked"; they don't go off together when you attack or anything, it is just SFX. If someone Drains your precog abilities (say a drugged dart with the effect of Drain vs All (+2) mental powers) then you lose them. I don't see this as any different from Pyroboy getting hit by Dr. McQuark's Ultra-fire extinguisher and losing all his flame powers, because that is just the SFX. The only thing you have to be careful of is when you buy CHA as part of a special effect, be sure both player and GM have an understanding of what the "base" CHA are so if you lose all your precog DEX you know what your "normal" DEX is.

__________________________________________________ ______
Drained and blue
I bleed for you
You think its funny
But you're drowning in it too
- Alice in Chains

[Robyn]

"I've got incredible reflexes because I know you're going to throw that knife at me in seven seconds and I have a better chance of getting out of the way"

I wouldn't allow it.

Aww, c'mon. Have fun with it! :eg: ;)

"I can tell you're going to throw that knife at me in 7 seconds, so I just shift to the side a little bit here. Oh crap, the future just changed, now you're going to throw the knife over THERE instead, in 6 seconds. Moving again. What the hell? It's like you can tell where I'm going to be, in advance. I thought I was the only one who had that power."

When, really, the person is just throwing the knife at whereever their target is at the time they throw it. You can tell they're going to throw the knife right at you, how helpful :rolleyes:

[Dust Raven]

Aww, c'mon. Have fun with it! :eg: ;)

"I can tell you're going to throw that knife at me in 7 seconds, so I just shift to the side a little bit here. Oh crap, the future just changed, now you're going to throw the knife over THERE instead, in 6 seconds. Moving again. What the hell? It's like you can tell where I'm going to be, in advance. I thought I was the only one who had that power."

When, really, the person is just throwing the knife at whereever their target is at the time they throw it. You can tell they're going to throw the knife right at you, how helpful :rolleyes:

Realistically, knowing someone will attack you won't make you any better at defending against it, assuming you'd be aware of the attack as it happens. At best it might allow you to move out of range before the attack can be attempted. Same thing when attacking. Knowing how someone will defend against a planned attack won't help you attack better or faster. At best, you'll know that if you attack like "this" they'll defend like "that" and you might only be able to see one possibility (the attack you will eventually use).

In fiction however, this may very well make someone appear to be moving quicker and more agile because they can predict the events around them as they happen, reacting to them with amazing accuracy. Unrealistic, but fun.

[Robyn]

In fiction however, this may very well make someone appear to be moving quicker and more agile because they can predict the events around them as they happen, reacting to them with amazing accuracy. Unrealistic, but fun.

It just seems like little more than a "Danger Sense, future only" to me. You can sense the attack coming except when you're actually being attacked. This might be worth a limit, unless the precognitive range required taking a Linked Clairsentience. I'd prefer to just name Precognition as the SFX for Danger Sense otherwise, though.

[TaxiMan]

Bah. If I could see 7 seconds into the future, my 'vision' wouldn't end with my reaction - I'd see an attack coming (say in 4 seconds), and also see what would happen if I shift left/jump/swing my sword up just so etc. I'd choose whatever action had me surviving and doing damage.

Only in cases where it is impossible to succeed would I fail to see a successful future. Say, an asteroid is hitting the city or something.

It'd have to be pretty bad; people survive jumping out of airplanes & collapsing building in real life. You just have to know where to stand and how to fall :).

[Dust Raven]

Bah. If I could see 7 seconds into the future, my 'vision' wouldn't end with my reaction - I'd see an attack coming (say in 4 seconds), and also see what would happen if I shift left/jump/swing my sword up just so etc. I'd choose whatever action had me surviving and doing damage.

Only in cases where it is impossible to succeed would I fail to see a successful future. Say, an asteroid is hitting the city or something.

Well, there's a difference between seeing/knowing a future where you perform some action successfully, and then actually succeeding at accomplishing it. There have been plenty real life situations where I was definately aware of the what was necessary to succeed, and even knew exactly how to do it, but when the time came simply failed.

Then, there is always the possibility the precog only sees what is really going to happen, but that kinda defeats the idea of buying extra DEX and such.

[TaxiMan]

OK, you make your precog superhero a weenie, and I'll make mine a god. There. We're all happy now :).

[Phil]

I think it's fine - sure, you're calling it linked, but it's not really very different from OIHID. Same value, same sort of implication, same possibility of being caught without it somehow (e.g. being Flash to Mental Sense).

[Vondy]

What do you think about Linking power sets to a single, highly limited Power? Here's two examples from a character with the fundamental ability to see 10 seconds into the future:

1. Clairsentience, 0 END Persistant, No Range, Precog only, Only Sees 10s in the Future (-2)

Linked powers: DEX, SPD, lotsa Luck (for weird Precog effects), N-Ray Vision (only places a person could see 10s from now), PRE defense, Flash defense, Mental defense (all "only if avoidable by a Normal").

Basically, this approach generates a cheap Precog (using the -2 lim), since all the effects of Precog are bought outright. There's very little it adds to the character in game play. But, all those powers get the -1/4 lim Linked. Nice cost savings, subject to having Precog Drained or something.

2. Clairsentience, 0 END Persistant, No Range, Precog only, Only Sees 10s in the Future (-0)

Linked powers: DEX, SPD. No purchase of other powers, assume the Precog is good enough.


There is a large difference in cost between the two. What are your thoughts, Herodom?

First lets address the build: while I tend to be a minamalist in character design, I think the player needs to pay for the Mental Defense, Presence Defense, and Flash Defense. Inherent in the concept that a normal person could avoid it is the idea that the normal person is going to do something to avoid it. I would not give a lim for that. Instead, I would tell the player that you will allow them to take an action to do something about what they see coming down the pipe. And that would be my preferred way of handling it. DEX and Speed, but no other powers. The Precog just lets them make prophylactic decisions.

As for the Linked issue: If you decided to let them by all those powers, I'm really liberal and would probably give the player a -1/4 Limitation because it is there for me to disrupt if I want to. I probably wouldn't, but it is sitting their like a ripe, juicy target. However, based on a reading of the text, a -0 Limitation seems to be "correct."

Page 299: "At the GM's discretion a character may linke a power with a higher Active Point Cost to one with a lower Active Point cost for a smaller Limitation..."

Page 300: "At the GM's option, Linked may be worth 1/4 less if the greater power is Constant or is otherwise likely to be in use most or all of the time."

[Dust Raven]

OK, you make your precog superhero a weenie, and I'll make mine a god. There. We're all happy now :).

Sounds like a good comprimise to me. :D