+2 to Speed

[Underling]

For the past few years I've been using GURPS to run my games, mainly because I prefer a relatively high degree of "realism" in my gaming, and I've had trouble making what I've learned of combat work with the Hero System (HS). However, GURPS doesn't allow much variation in attributes/characteristics, nor does it have quite the flexibility of HS...and there's something just more enjoyable about using HS, as I remember it. Since the appearance of the 5th edition, I've been seriously considering switching back to HS.

One of the problems I had with HS has been the Speed rules. While I love the concept, I run mostly low-powered "realistic" games, and the difference between SPD 1 and SPD 2 is huge (double). How can your average joe be so slow that he can only act once every 12 seconds? Maybe someone with severe arthritis would be that slow, but your average person? Hmm.

Then I read the "Superpowers in Reality" article ( http://www.herogames.com/digitalHero/Samples/dh11realsupers.htm ) on this site, which suggests simply adding 2 to everyone's SPD score. Adding 2 (or even 3?) to SPD scores would appear to solve my problem--average people would be able to perform more realistically, and the difference between SPD 1 and SPD 2 wouldn't be so drastic. However, that would also mess up movement and who knows what else?

So, I finally get around to actual question: what abilities (like movement) would have to be modified to take into account this change in SPD score, and what solutions would you recommend? (I don't have the HS book yet, so for all I know this issue has been addressed.)

If I can get this issue solved (along with some problems I had with unconsciousness and the low lethality of killing attacks--but I'll leave those for separate posts), I'd be inspired to make the switch.

Thanks,
Derek

[tiger]

Originally posted by Underling
So, I finally get around to actual question: what abilities (like movement) would have to be modified to take into account this change in SPD score, and what solutions would you recommend? (I don't have the HS book yet, so for all I know this issue has been addressed.)
Thanks,
Derek

None per say.. Speed reflects how often you can do something in the turn. So increasing your speed doesn't effect other stats.

Now, some people factor in spd with def for house rules and such. This of course would be modified, although no game "stat" would.

[C_Zeree]

Most "common" people, according to FREd, have a SPD of 3 to begin with, a few points. A SPD of 2 is basically given. Thus there are few of the arthritic people you describe. I think once real action every 4 sec or so to be fair.

[Vondy]

For starters base speed is based on dexterity divided by 10 plus one. So a normal human has a speed of 2, but can purchase additional speed up to 4 in more realistic heroic games, or higher in more fantastical heroic or superheroic campaigns.

So really, you can scale speed however you want. In my superheroic game I limit dex and speed to heroic levels unless the character is a very highly trained combatant (martial artist/uber-commando) or has a power-based justification for going beyond 4.

Speed is one of those stats that has to be carefully managed by the gamemaster.

For heroic games I use the following rule of thumb --

SPD1 The elderly, small children
SPD2 Almost everybody
SPD3 Trained combatants
SPD4 Blooded combat experts

For superheroic games I use the following rule of thumb--

SPD1 The elderly, small children
SPD2 Almost everybody
SPD3 Trained combatants
SPD4 Blooded combat experts (most supers)
SPD5 Supersoldiers, Martial Arts Types
SPD6/7 Super-Speed Concepts

[Monolith]

I think the only real problem you are having with Speed is that you are trying to reconcile it with an amount of time, in this case seconds. If you take the time factor out of it then Speed is really not an issue. Do not think of a Turn as being 12 seconds. Instead think of it as being a “round” of combat. An average person can attack twice per Turn (round). A slightly above average person can attack 3 times per Turn. An exceptional person can attack 4 times per Turn. If you take the seconds out you see that an exceptional person only attacks twice as much as an average person. That is no big deal. Most people just get confused by the time issue because they are trying to reconcile realism with the heroism of the genre, and that almost never works.

[Ndreare]

Most "Normal’s" have a speed of two yes but when compared to G.U.R.P.S. I think this is still more realistic. In GURPS a character may make actions every second with some things taking little less or more time. (From participating in and watching martial arts tournaments) I know this is not true people spend a lot of time hesitating, catching their breath and other things like that. Even when in a street fight the amount of hesitation is pretty extreme.

Now a HERO character with a speed of two actually gets four actions in 12 seconds meaning they may move and attack stand still and go all out offensive (Sweep Maneuver) or start dodging. When compared to other games this is still considered a lot. (Palladiums System uses two attacks for norms as a default in a 15 second turn, D&D uses one per six) really the only system I can think of were the average person moves like lighting is GURPS.


(If you would like to see some “Real” combat in real time go to an SCA event and watch them fight. Only the best and most practiced will be taking tons of attacks. Plus if you’re into it, it is a good reason to get together with some friends drink and play live action.)

[Underling]

Originally posted by tiger
None per say.. Speed reflects how often you can do something in the turn. So increasing your speed doesn't effect other stats.

Hmm, but it seems that the free REC at the end of the turn would be affected. I wonder if it should just be dropped?

Plus, movement would need to be modified, I should think. Otherwise someone with a move (jog?) of 7" (that's 42', right?) would go from an 84' run per turn at SPD 2 to a 168' run if +2 was added to all SPD scores. Guess I could do some testing of my own on how fast real people of various speeds run in 12 seconds and divide it by their SPD score to come up with move....


Now, some people factor in spd with def for house rules and such. This of course would be modified, although no game "stat" would.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "def for house rules and such."

Thanksk,
Derek

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Ndreare
Now a HERO character with a speed of two actually gets four actions in 12 seconds meaning they may move and attack stand still and go all out offensive (Sweep Maneuver) or start dodging. When compared to other games this is still considered a lot. (Palladiums System uses two attacks for norms as a default in a 15 second turn, D&D uses one per six) really the only system I can think of were the average person moves like lighting is GURPS.
I always think that it is funny that people coming from d20 always seem to complain about the Speed Chart. And yet, D&D characters only get two attacks per 12 seconds too. They are basically the same thing. :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Underling
Plus, movement would need to be modified, I should think. Otherwise someone with a move (jog?) of 7" (that's 42', right?) would go from an 84' run per turn at SPD 2 to a 168' run if +2 was added to all SPD scores. Guess I could do some testing of my own on how fast real people of various speeds run in 12 seconds and divide it by their SPD score to come up with move....
You are looking for WAY too much realism here. My sig file says it all.

[Underling]

Originally posted by Monolith
I think the only real problem you are having with Speed is that you are trying to reconcile it with an amount of time, in this case seconds. If you take the time factor out of it then Speed is really not an issue. Do not think of a Turn as being 12 seconds. Instead think of it as being a “round” of combat. An average person can attack twice per Turn (round). A slightly above average person can attack 3 times per Turn. An exceptional person can attack 4 times per Turn. If you take the seconds out you see that an exceptional person only attacks twice as much as an average person. That is no big deal. Most people just get confused by the time issue because they are trying to reconcile realism with the heroism of the genre, and that almost never works.

Ah, true indeed. However, it seems that changing what a turn means (say from 12 seconds to 6) would still mess with movement (and free REC?). It helps to be able to match seconds to turns for cases where something is occurring on a second-by-second basis (a time bomb counter, for instance).

I realize I'm probably a bit too fixated on realism to be ideal for Hero System, but that's just the environment I prefer. So...I try to tinker.

Thanks,
Derek

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Underling
Ah, true indeed. However, it seems that changing what a turn means (say from 12 seconds to 6) would still mess with movement (and free REC?). It helps to be able to match seconds to turns for cases where something is occurring on a second-by-second basis (a time bomb counter, for instance).
Time really has no meaning. As a GM if you decide the players only have a few actions to accomplish their goal then it really does not matter if those few actions take 6 seconds, 12 seconds, or 3 minutes. If you give the players too many things to do in the time allowed then you have already failed in your task.

As the GM, if you know a task will take a character 5 Phases then you should be giving him 6. Whether the 5 Phases is 30 seconds or 1 minutes does not matter. The drama comes from having to succeed within those 5 Phases.

For the most part it is best to think of a Phase as a panel in a comic book. You really do not care how many seconds take place between the panels. You only care about what is being done within the panel you are looking at. That Phase is what is important, not that the panels take place 3 or 6 seconds apart. That is really the whole basis of the HERO System and the Speed Chart.

[Underling]

Originally posted by Monolith
You are looking for WAY too much realism here. My sig file says it all.

:D Well, you're right there. I just prefer to start with rules that are as realistic as possible, and then relax those rules as necessary when more "heroism" is desired. It's easier than doing the reverse, after all. And HS isn't THAT far off, really.

Derek

[JmOz]

The only real problem I have ever had with the speed chart is the predictability of it, been thinking of messing with it some how (Don't ask me how yet)

And it is true, if you think of being able to do TWICE your speed

[dbsousa]

I just read on Compubox (http://www.compuboxonline.com) that the average heavyweight boxer throws 48 punches in a round. 48 attacks in 180 seconds equals one every 3.75 seconds, which translates to a SPD of between 3 and 4.

Hero looks pretty accurate from that perspective...

[austenandrews]

Upping the average SPD would make people get tired more quickly. As it stands, Joe Normal has a 10 STR and a 4 REC, meaning he handily recovers the END he spends in a fistfight. I don't know how realistic that is, but it might be something to account for.

-AA

[Talon]

There are some per-Turn movement house rules out there which would help address the movement issue. As for SPD, both GURPS' and Hero's time scales have their issues. In HERO, you have the problems you have already mentioned (people seem slow to react to certain things) -- for example, trained target shooters seem to able to make aimed shots at the rate of at least 1 per second. OTOH, with GURPS you get that reaction time, but trying to do anything else during combat (start a car, pick a lock, etc.) takes forever because the rounds are only a second long. At some point, you have to accept that game mechanics require a tradeoff at some point.

[austenandrews]

Yeah, I remember the first Star Trek RPG had an "action point" system that tried to be realistic. Marksmen could squeeze off five or more shots before anyone could close for fisticuffs. The result? A ST universe where there were no fistfights. Where's the fun in that?

-AA

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by austenandrews
Upping the average SPD would make people get tired more quickly. As it stands, Joe Normal has a 10 STR and a 4 REC, meaning he handily recovers the END he spends in a fistfight. I don't know how realistic that is, but it might be something to account for.

-AA

Its not realistic at all. The few fights I've been in, I remember being worn out from all the moving about and fist-tossing more than being hit by my opponent.

Of course, in a typical fight, not only are people expending End for punching (STR) but also for movement as well, so typically a speed 2 normal will spend 3 end per phase (2 End for STR and 1 End for movement...using the "Heroic" rules for STR and End) which means a normal (spd 2) with 20 End will wear himself out in 10 turns (2 minutes)

Sounds about right.

[pinecone]

Nothing much to add..though it is true that movement is impacted by speed so if you want Speed to not change how fast you run (Like say in a psionics campain where most actions are mental,not physical) halve movement when you double speed (basicly take the inverse) so if 2 is normal a speed 3 should sell off 2" of move....

[PhilFleischmann]

I firmly agree with Monolith.

The only problem I have (sometimes) is with the "chunkyness" of SPD at low power levels (heroic). With supers, a range of 5-7 is not a big deal, with especially slow ones at 4, and especially fast ones at 8. But with heroic level guys, as SPD range of 2-4 makes a much bigger difference.

One way to get around this that I have been toying with is to allow fractional SPD values. So you could have a 3.5 SPD, which essentially means get 3 phases in one turn, and 4 in the next. I expanded on this idea to create larger scale phase charts, so the phases would be evenly distributed. For example, I might use a 24-second speed chart where everyone gets recoveries after segments 12 and 24 and a character with a 3.5 SPD gets 7 equally spread out phases during the "extended turn," which is actually two normal turns.

This has the added side benefit of making the speed chart less predictable, JmOz.

[Old Man]

My ever-changing plan for new heroic campaigns involves doing away with SPD altogether, and just defining everyone as SPD 4 for purposes of flash and whatnot. I also would dispense with post-12 recoveries; if you want a recovery, take one. This gets rid of SPD and the SPD chart, and makes DEX worth a little less.

[Arthur]

First off:

Yay! Someone read my article!!

Secondly:

I was trying to address a couple of things with the "increase SPD" suggestion.

1. The REC to END use doesn't seem to work out well at low SPD. It works out OK when the average SPD is 5, but when the average SPD is 3, characters become virtually tireless. Hence, the idea to increase SPD in lower-point games to restore the END/REC balancing act.
This, however, leads to characters zipping around the map at superhuman movement rates. For some gaming styles, that isn't an issue, but I prefer to address it. My idea was to reduce the hex size to 1 meter. This allows the use of GURPS maps. However, someone else mentioned adjusting the time scale so that 1 Segment becomes 2 seconds. Excellent idea! (translation: why the hell didn't *I* think of that?).

2. The sameness of SPD values. Seems pretty much everyone was SPD 4, with only a few at 3 or 5. This led to a range of 3-5, with a serious concentration at the center. One idea is to do away with SPD altogether or make SPD 4 mandatory. However, that seems unfair to the "speedster" type characters. Also, this approach does nothing to address the "tirelessness" issue.

3. Slightly off the subject: would anyone be interested in seeing some more examples of 150-point paranormals? I'd be happy to submit them to DH if there is enough interest.

[PhilFleischmann]

The "tireless" problem is easy to fix. As Old Man said, get rid of post-12 recoveries. If that's too harsh, just give them half their REC, or do it every other turn only, or allow only recovery of STUN in post-12, not END, or divide the REC between STUN and END (perhaps allowing the characters to choose how much of each to recover). The possibilities are unlimitless...

[Toonol]

I am not running a campaign right now, but if I was to start, one of my only house rules would be changing the speed formula.

Instead of Dex/10 +1, I would make it Dex/10 +2.

I don't have any problem with the speed chart being too complex or cumbersome; I just don't like the granularity at low speed levels. Giving a normal a speed of 3 just seems more balanced... and this change doesn't seem like it would have terrible repercusions anywhere else. (I would probably also declare normal movement as 12" per Turn, distributed among your phases, but that's another easy fix.)

I didn't read the Digital Hero article, but I guess it gave a scheme similar to this?

Toonol