Power Pools?

[yamamura]

Okay I didn't find a thread that addressed this directly (doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that I didn't find it). A friend of mine is planning to run a 250 pts campaign and was wondering if he should allow power pools. So he would like other's opinions for and against power pools and this is the best place for such pondering.

[Edsel]

One thing I always do with a VPP is require the character to have a pre-made list of abilities to pull out of the pool. This saves an enormous amount of time. I have watched a game bog down as the person with the VPP and the GM hash over the cost of a complex build on the spur of the moment. You have to be really up on the rules to pull out powers on the fly (other than basic stuff). Even then a player who is running a VPP should be well versed in the rules.

[TheRavenIs]

I agree with Edsel, at that level you need to have the powers in the pool already generated. I do that for all VPP's I do.

[ghost-angel]

I'll assume you mean Variable instead of Multi.

I'm with the others. Yes.

But like anything it should be carefully monitored and watched.

[OddHat]

The most important rule: A power that the GM would veto outside of a Power Pool is not permitted inside the Power Pool.

Rule Two: If the GM says "No, you can't", then you can't. A VPP is not a license to whine.

Rule Three: Thou shalt respect the other guys schtick. If you get the urge to use your VPP to make yourself stronger than the team Brick or faster than the Speedster, just stop. That's not your schtick. Respect the other PCs authoritah.

That said, the Gadjet pool (changed in lab) is always appropriate in almost any genre, and all sorts of other pools crop up as well. So long as the player is willing to play fair, the SFX are appropriate and well explained and the GM takes the time to look things over, I'd say a VPP character is usually welcomed.

I usually restrict VPPs to fewer active points than the team specialists, but that's actually anti-genre.

[Robyn]

I usually restrict VPPs to fewer active points than the team specialists

Do you let the team specialists exceed their typical AP limits with boosts from the VPP assistant, though?

[Zed-F]

Depends on the tone of the game you're trying to run. A VPP better suits a free-wheeling type of game than a gritty-feeling game.

As for letting the VPP guy bump the brick's STR through the roof, again it depends on the type of game in question. This sort of thing will often turn villains into speedbumps. If they were supposed to be speedbumps in the first place, great, go for it. But if you're looking for a dramatic, tension-filled fight, then that sort of thing will often bring things to a premature conclusion.

[Hugh Neilson]

As for letting the VPP guy bump the brick's STR through the roof, again it depends on the type of game in question. This sort of thing will often turn villains into speedbumps. If they were supposed to be speedbumps in the first place, great, go for it. But if you're looking for a dramatic, tension-filled fight, then that sort of thing will often bring things to a premature conclusion.

This one is easily fixed by the "Sauce for the Gander" discussion. If you can do this, so can the opposition. In most Supers games, the PC's are reactive - the villains generally make the first move. as such, they have all the time in the world to power up in advance, using Aid's with long recovery times, so their whole team will be beefed up before they face you. At best, your group will be equally beefed up. Of course, if the villains can start the combat with a massive Dispel to all Aided characteristics...

[Lucius]

In my opinion, the number of points he wants to run the game on is not a very relevant factor.

Far more important are how well he knows the game, how well the players know the game, etc.

I liked Champions from the start, but I REALLY fell for it with Champions II when the ancestor of the Variable Power Pool was introduced. I said "Finally, a game that can do magick right!" It was intended for "gadgets" but I saw what it could be made to do right away. So I am strongly in favor of using them, but I do recognize that they can bring on headaches.

Requiring that the player bring a number of pre-built powers to the table is an EXTREMELY good idea I think.

Even then, you don't have to forbid building powers "on the fly" if the player (or someone willing to help the player) knows the system well enough, but be prepared to say "You can't find a way to do what you want" if it looks like it's going to be too time consuming or involve a lot of wrangling. You don't have the right parts, you can't remember the right incantations, whatever.

A high-point pool is probably more likely to cause problems than a low-point pool.


Also, I've never agreed with the idea of linking Active and Real cost limits in the way the standard game does; I strongly support the variant I learned about in these forums, where the Base Cost is your total Real Points and the Control Cost is based on your total possible Active Points, and the two numbers are not linked. This lets you design, for example, a character with powerful effects, but few and strictly limited; or one with many different powers, but all at low points.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary notes that North Las Vegas has a Carefree Beauty Avenue, and Sardis OH has a Dogskin Road. Where DO people come up with these colorful place names?

[McCoy]

VPP just seem to me to be essential to the genre.

Look, for example, at the wide variety of things Spider-Man has done with his webs over the years. To simulat this in Champions terms you need either (1) a multipower with about 30 slots, most of which got used once, (2) abusing the power tricks rule, or (3) a small VPP that allowed Spidy's player to create a parachute (gliding, 2", cannot gain altitude) or whatever "on the fly."

[OddHat]

Do you let the team specialists exceed their typical AP limits with boosts from the VPP assistant, though?

I don't use hard active point caps as such. As to one player buffing another, it depends on the campaign and situation.

In my default Supers games, I might encourage it in cases where it's exciting and dramatically appropriate and where the players can come up with a good SFX and narative justification. I have no problem allowing Character A to feed her power into Character B in order to stop ___________.

A character who does nothing but buff the other characters would bore me, but if I allowed the character at all I'd upgrade the opposition accordingly.

[OddHat]

This one is easily fixed by the "Sauce for the Gander" discussion. If you can do this, so can the opposition. In most Supers games, the PC's are reactive - the villains generally make the first move. as such, they have all the time in the world to power up in advance, using Aid's with long recovery times, so their whole team will be beefed up before they face you. At best, your group will be equally beefed up. Of course, if the villains can start the combat with a massive Dispel to all Aided characteristics...

If I didn't want the players buffing extensively before combats, I'd just tell them so (and have). In a Supers game its generally against genre unless you're talking about a very limited number of characters or a videogame variant.

In a D&D style game, I'd expect players to buff and plan accordingly.

[ghost-angel]

VPP just seem to me to be essential to the genre.

Look, for example, at the wide variety of things Spider-Man has done with his webs over the years. To simulat this in Champions terms you need either (1) a multipower with about 30 slots, most of which got used once, (2) abusing the power tricks rule, or (3) a small VPP that allowed Spidy's player to create a parachute (gliding, 2", cannot gain altitude) or whatever "on the fly."

Well, if all those cool things were only used once, maybe twice, through the long history of Spidey I would say that isn't abuse of the Power SKill - but exactly what it's for: doing one off randomly strange things with your Powers.

Otherwise, to really simulate genre, everyone should buy VPP; Cosmic; Only When Dramatically Approrpiate.

[Hugh Neilson]

If I didn't want the players buffing extensively before combats, I'd just tell them so (and have). In a Supers game its generally against genre unless you're talking about a very limited number of characters or a videogame variant.

In a D&D style game, I'd expect players to buff and plan accordingly.

I agree with both points. I also believe that, ib both structures, I'd expect the opposition to operate in similar fashion.

[Lucius]

I agree with both points. I also believe that, ib both structures, I'd expect the opposition to operate in similar fashion.

Hoyle's Law: Whatever the game, whatever the rules, the same rules apply to both sides.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary prefers Cole's Law: thinly sliced cabbage.

[Funksaw]

Well, if all those cool things were only used once, maybe twice, through the long history of Spidey I would say that isn't abuse of the Power SKill - but exactly what it's for: doing one off randomly strange things with your Powers.

Otherwise, to really simulate genre, everyone should buy VPP; Cosmic; Only When Dramatically Approrpiate.

Actually, personally, I'd like the idea of a +1/4 advantage on the base cost of a Multipower that essentially allows it to function as a VPP in very, very limited instances.

Spider-Man, for example. It's an Entangle. It's a Force Wall. It's a Shield. It's an extra inch of Leaping (Trampoline effect) and Telekinesis or stretching (grab character before she falls to her doom.) You could build all those as a Multipower, but you'd never come up with all the situations you could possibly need.

Instead of having a seperate VPP to come up with those situations, call it a +1/4, +1/2, +3/4, or +1 advantage on the Multipower called "Flexible" or "Robust", and have the character able to create small, GM-justifiable powers on the fly... but they only use +1/4, +1/2, +3/4, or all of the MP, respectively. For example, Spidey creating a hang-glider, that might be Gliding, Usable on Others - but if his MP's 60 AP, the gliding wouldn't be more than 15 AP worth.

Granted, his gliding might be considered a reasonable use of the Power Tricks roll, but some powers are more flexible than others. Spiderman's webs are pretty flexible - Iron Man's suit - with pre-programmed instructions - usually isn't.