Clarification: Grond is not the Strongest One There IS

[Agent X]

Read it and weep, Grond fans, Gargantua on page 152-153 of Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks has a strength of 100 at a height of 32". I only bring this up in this flashy way because there are some people on the threads who have said that they are using Grond as a benchmark of the top strength in the Champions Universe and they didn't give me the impression that they knew that wasn't the DOJ take on the CU. Grond only has a 90.

There, I just had to get that off my chest. :)

[Monolith]

Don't forget about Ripper! He might not be stronger all the time, but in little spurts he is stronger than Grond too. :)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
Don't forget about Ripper! He might not be stronger all the time, but in little spurts he is stronger than Grond too. :) Cool! Grond is not the Second Strongest There IS!

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X
Cool! Grond is not the Second Strongest There IS!
Well now technically...

• Shirak 100
• Gargantua 100
• Tyrannon 100 (4E)
• Ripper 100 (4E)
• Grond 90
:D

[Nucleon]

It's a bit sad indeed. But, Grond still has that extra pair of arms does he?

100 seems a reasonable benchmark.

[Gary]

Technically, anybody with a massive VPP like Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes could simply set their pools to be +150 str. :eek:

[Hermit]

Mmm, not only does he not use deodorant, Grond wades through chemicals and sewage a lot so I'd say , at least to the Olfactory senses, he's still the strongest. :D

[Lord Liaden]

Certainly under 4th Edition a STR of 90 was the benchmark. The only characters with more that I'm aware of were Ymir the Frost Giant from the original Champions Universe at 95, and the generic "giant Japanese reptile" from the 4E Bestiary at 115. Contrary to earlier reports (and the implication of the text description of his abilities in Classic Enemies) 4E Ripper's temporary Strength boost as written on his character sheet would raise it to 90 (without Pushing, of course). The original version of Ripper from the Escape from Stronghold adventure did go up to STR 100, which leads me to think that he was scaled back so that Grond would still be the strongest humanoid. Mind you, the new CU sourcebook asserts that Ripper's boost makes him "consistently stronger than Grond."

Don't know about anyone else, but I plan to graft much of Darren Watts's fine Hulk writeup onto Grond for my campaign. (So I want a Hulk clone, sue me.) :p

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Contrary to earlier reports (and the implication of the text description of his abilities in Classic Enemies) 4E Ripper's temporary Strength boost as written on his character sheet would raise it to 90 (without Pushing, of course). The original version of Ripper from the Escape from Stronghold adventure did go up to STR 100, which leads me to think that he was scaled back so that Grond would still be the strongest humanoid. Mind you, the new CU sourcebook asserts that Ripper's boost makes him "consistently stronger than Grond."
Actually, I think we are both wrong. Ripper's STR should be 95 when boosted. Ripper has a base STR of 50, and then 3 levels of Growth (incorrectly listed as 1 level), and then +30 boost. That is a total of 95. With that he is "consistently stronger than Grond."

[Morningstar]

"Shirak 100"

Who is this guy? Where is he listed?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Morningstar
"Shirak 100"

Who is this guy? Where is he listed?
He is from CKC. He is the Lemurian Golem at the end.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Monolith
Actually, I think we are both wrong. Ripper's STR should be 95 when boosted. Ripper has a base STR of 50, and then 3 levels of Growth (incorrectly listed as 1 level), and then +30 boost. That is a total of 95. With that he is "consistently stronger than Grond."

You know, we're still both wrong. :o You're right that by the points calculation in Classic Enemies it should be three levels of Growth rather than one, but the book claims that that's already figured into Ripper's Strength listing. Well, let's see: he's got 12 pts. added to the Cost of his STR with the OIF and No Figured Limitations, which should work out to +25 STR for 35 total... 3 levels of Growth for +15 STR, brings the total to 50 which tallies with his character sheet... then the Strength boost is listed as +30, with 4 Charges, OIF and No Figured to bring the cost of the boost to 10 Real Points, that matches the writeup... which gives Ripper a maximum Strength of 80 without Pushing, still less than Grond's 90.

Thank heaven for the 5E playtesters! :rolleyes:

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
which gives Ripper a maximum Strength of 80 without Pushing, still less than Grond's 90.
Steve is just going to have to fix that then. We cannot have a wimpy Ripper running around in 5th Edition! :)


Thank heaven for the 5E playtesters! :rolleyes:
I made the mistake because I was sleep deprived. Yeah, that's it. Sleep deprived. I am not a bad playtester. Really! :)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Monolith
I made the mistake because I was sleep deprived. Yeah, that's it. Sleep deprived. I am not a bad playtester. Really! :)

Hey, Mon, no criticism of you intended! Quite the opposite, actually: you and your cohorts are a big reason why so few of this type of error creep into 5E books.

You can hardly be blamed for misinterpreting the math in the character construction in some 4th Edition products - it's almost proof of chaos theory. ;)

[Steve Long]

You'll see the 5E version of Ripper in VIPER. Trust me, he ain't wimpy. ;)

[Agent X]

That settles it. Steve Long posted on "my" thread and he did not dispute my statement. I win. ;)

[Steve Long]

To paraphrase Rule 3 from 5E 336, "Just because I don't disagree with you doesn't mean I agree." :)

Though in this case, I don't disagree. I've never said Grond was the strongest character, period, in the CU, and he's manifestly not, so it's kinda hard to argue. ;)

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by Steve Long
To paraphrase Rule 3 from 5E 336, "Just because I don't disagree with you doesn't mean I agree." :)

Though in this case, I don't disagree. I've never said Grond was the strongest character, period, in the CU, and he's manifestly not, so it's kinda hard to argue. ;)

But we like argueing... We LIVE for it

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Steve Long
To paraphrase Rule 3 from 5E 336, "Just because I don't disagree with you doesn't mean I agree." :)

Though in this case, I don't disagree. I've never said Grond was the strongest character, period, in the CU, and he's manifestly not, so it's kinda hard to argue. ;) Ahah! I'm right anyway. Ahahahahahhahahahaha!:D

[steriaca]

Anyways, have we only sceen just a tip of the iceburg when we see supervillians in the Champions Universe? We only have one Enimies book, and a few villians here and there in Champions, Champions Universe, and Milimum City, with more 'comming soon' in VIPER, and other books. In other words, you people are baseing your information on incomplete information.

Not that any information will ever become compleat in the ever changing world of the Champions anyways...

[Talon]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Hey, Mon, no criticism of you intended! Quite the opposite, actually: you and your cohorts are a big reason why so few of this type of error creep into 5E books.

I shudder to recall the level of typos in 4th Edition books.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by steriaca
In other words, you people are baseing your information on incomplete information.
I agree, but we have to work with what he have. There will be no new “Enemies” book before 2005 so all we have to mine villains from over the next 18 months are VIPER, UNTIL (might not even have any villains), The Mystic World, DEMON, and Vibora Bay. I am not including the Dark Champions books, as I do not know the true extent of them as of yet - meaning I am not sure if they will be street-level supers or more geared toward James Bond-type stuff. Assuming less than a dozen badguys in each of those books we are probably looking at another 40-50 new villains before a new "Enemies" book is published. I would doubt that more then 2 or 3 of those 50 would be stronger than Grond. My guess would be only Ripper and Tyrannon, and then maybe one more surprise villain.

[Enforcer84]

In my game Grond has a 150 str.
He is the strongest. You sorta lose.:D

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
In my game Grond has a 150 str.
He is the strongest. You sorta lose.:D Now, we both know that is not official.;)

[Rage]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
In my game Grond has a 150 str.
He is the strongest. You sorta lose.:D

CRAP DOn'T TELL STEVE LONG THAT! Herogames can't afford to recall all the books and reissue them with the changed stats for Grondand its to big a deal for them just to Errata it! Its Economic Suicide!

PLEASE DON'T MENTION YOUR STAT AGAIN!


(insert crappy emoticon. Man I don't like them. They're gayer than my dad thinks I am.)

[Enforcer84]

Then I shouldn't mention that Warlord is a woman?

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Agent X
Now, we both know that is not official.;)

Actualy it is as the rules OFFICIALY allow you to change anything you want.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Ndreare
Actualy it is as the rules OFFICIALY allow you to change anything you want. That is a silly statement. "Officially" modifying a suggestion that you can change a rule does not change the official point value. Why are you posting a semantic dispute anyway?

[hybris]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
Then I shouldn't mention that Warlord is a woman? Has she a cooler armor than the one depicted in CKC?

[Tombstone_Frank]

In the Offical write-up in the Games Trader Magizine for the month of June, Hero System (along with SAS, Marvel, and MnM) all did a Hulk conversion to promote the movie...

Hulk has a STR of 80. He also has "Madder Hulk Gets, Stronger Hulk Gets" Aid of 2d6 max of 60 pts of STR. That tops out at an astounding 140 STR.

Hulk smash puny Grond.....:D

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Tombstone_Frank
In the Offical write-up in the Games Trader Magizine for the month of June, Hero System (along with SAS, Marvel, and MnM) all did a Hulk conversion to promote the movie...

Hulk has a STR of 80. He also has "Madder Hulk Gets, Stronger Hulk Gets" Aid of 2d6 max of 60 pts of STR. That tops out at an astounding 140 STR.

Hulk smash puny Grond.....:D Yes! Hulk does smash puny Grond! :) :) :)

[tinfish52]

The comical thing to me is when people describe things in heroese. so and so is 32" tall and has a strength of 100. to the non hero folks out there that has got to sound weird. that is why I found the book to be so hard to read. I have played champions since my 11th birthday in '82 and i see the structure of the game has remained pretty much unchanged. It is like having an rpg/tactical game combo. as the old saying goes, "if it ain't broke don't fix it". I did adapt a narrative style for combat in champions a long time ago. so there have been no ''evening of combat" scenarios for me. anyway, I always liked RIPPER. I can't wait for the VIPER book.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Tombstone_Frank
In the Offical write-up in the Games Trader Magizine for the month of June, Hero System (along with SAS, Marvel, and MnM) all did a Hulk conversion to promote the movie...

Hulk has a STR of 80. He also has "Madder Hulk Gets, Stronger Hulk Gets" Aid of 2d6 max of 60 pts of STR. That tops out at an astounding 140 STR.

Hulk smash puny Grond.....:D

That's just plain overkill, IMO.

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Kristopher
That's just plain overkill, IMO.

Maybe, but I've seen him swing a train and it's cars like a bicycle chain and hold up a collapsing mountain range. I think they're being pretty conservative. There's always a problem translating a fluid medium like a comic to a fixed point like a set of RPG stats since the writers have the character do whatever the story calls for, while the RPG stats establish boundaries everyine abides by.

[Lord Liaden]

It's always possible to adjust Hulk's maximum up or down depending on your concept; but now that Champions has allowed Dr. Destroyer a 30 DC attack, Hulk needs to stay competitive. ;)

It's actually been said in various "official" Marvel sources that no one is sure if the Hulk really has an upper limit to his enhanced strength. That's one concept that's hard to do in HERO unless you allow the pure cheese of an Aid to Strength that also Aids itself at the same time, so that the maximum keeps rising.

In the case of Darren Watts's fine Hulk writeup in Game Trader, though, it would take a couple of Turns of him being Enraged for him to reach his upper limit. That's quite a bit of time in a HERO combat, giving opponents a chance to take the Hulk down before his strength becomes overwhelming.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
That's just plain overkill, IMO. Have you read the Hulk? He would be a threat for Dr. Destroyer by himself. Many comic book heroes would have to be built with three or four or more times as many points as a typical champions character.

[Kristopher]

I meant that the character itself is overkill. I've never understood the appeal of massive, excessive, rediculous power. Characters capable of holding up mountain ranges are silly. (Never mind that a "mountain range" isn't in any way a single object that could be held up.) Superman kicking the moon out of orbit is patently silly -- there's a reason they scaled his power level way down. Throwing a battleship is borderline (since it assumes that the battleship could withstand its own weight on one point).

I know I'm running very much against the grain of comic books here, but as I've said before, there are parts of the comic book genre I simply don't care for. 4-Color settings, absurd power levels / feats, and lack of continuity/consistency are right there at the top of the list.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I meant that the character itself is overkill. I've never understood the appeal of massive, excessive, rediculous power. Characters capable of holding up mountain ranges are silly. (Never mind that a "mountain range" isn't in any way a single object that could be held up.) Superman kicking the moon out of orbit is patently silly -- there's a reason they scaled his power level way down. Throwing a battleship is borderline (since it assumes that the battleship could withstand its own weight on one point).

I know I'm running very much against the grain of comic books here, but as I've said before, there are parts of the comic book genre I simply don't care for. 4-Color settings, absurd power levels / feats, and lack of continuity/consistency are right there at the top of the list. I like that stuff. If I wanted realism I would read crime thrillers or something.

[Greywind]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I meant that the character itself is overkill. I've never understood the appeal of massive, excessive, rediculous power. Characters capable of holding up mountain ranges are silly. (Never mind that a "mountain range" isn't in any way a single object that could be held up.) Superman kicking the moon out of orbit is patently silly -- there's a reason they scaled his power level way down. Throwing a battleship is borderline (since it assumes that the battleship could withstand its own weight on one point).

I know I'm running very much against the grain of comic books here, but as I've said before, there are parts of the comic book genre I simply don't care for. 4-Color settings, absurd power levels / feats, and lack of continuity/consistency are right there at the top of the list.

Depends on what you read. Superman was scaled down, yes. His powers, as they are defined, also changed. Forcefield (very close to his skin. His jammies don't get trashed, but his cape does), tactile tk (how do you think Superboy got it?). His strength comes from his solar charged cells, his heat vision comes from tapping the power directly.

[CrosshairCollie]

I prefer the classic invulnerable Superman to the Forcefield Superman (rip the suit, just keep it comics code approved).

Now, I have to ask ... I've seen the phrase 'tactile TK' in a few places, but I don't read Superboy, so ... what the heck does 'tactile telekinesis' actually mean or do?

[dbsousa]

Tactile TK is TK no Range, affects porous substances. Superboy has it, but DC has backed off from John Byrne's initial suggestion that Superman has it. It does make sense to assume, though that Superman's powers are all mental. Flight, Invulnerability, and Strength as manifestations of TK, X-Ray Vision as Remote Seeing, Heat Vision as Pyrokenesis and cold breath as Cryokenesis...

[Greywind]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie
I prefer the classic invulnerable Superman to the Forcefield Superman (rip the suit, just keep it comics code approved).

Now, I have to ask ... I've seen the phrase 'tactile TK' in a few places, but I don't read Superboy, so ... what the heck does 'tactile telekinesis' actually mean or do?

It keeps the battleship from collapsing in on itself when Superman picks it up.

[zarglif69]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I meant that the character itself is overkill. I've never understood the appeal of massive, excessive, rediculous power. Characters capable of holding up mountain ranges are silly. (Never mind that a "mountain range" isn't in any way a single object that could be held up.) Superman kicking the moon out of orbit is patently silly -- there's a reason they scaled his power level way down. Throwing a battleship is borderline (since it assumes that the battleship could withstand its own weight on one point).

I know I'm running very much against the grain of comic books here, but as I've said before, there are parts of the comic book genre I simply don't care for. 4-Color settings, absurd power levels / feats, and lack of continuity/consistency are right there at the top of the list.
Read the section in Champions about "superhero physics." suspend your disbelief. Anyways, I agree with you. On one occaision Superman pushed the Earth.

[Enforcer84]

eh. all those guns and "realism" so ruined comics for me. Give me cosmic golden agedness or give me a book to read.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
eh. all those guns and "realism" so ruined comics for me. Give me cosmic golden agedness or give me a book to read. Yes! Realism and tights don't mix.:D

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Superskrull
There's always a problem translating a fluid medium like a comic to a fixed point like a set of RPG stats since the writers have the character do whatever the story calls for, while the RPG stats establish boundaries everyine abides by. It wouldn't be a problem writing a set of roleplaying rules that really simulate comics. I'm currently working on them, in between other projects.

Champions simulates 'genre weirdness' to some extent with soliloquies that take no time and so on. I plan to have rules for things like the writer forgetting a hero has a particular power, characters being more powerful in their own comic book, innocents not getting hurt nearly as often as they should in urban hero battles*, amazing coincidences and more.

*This rule wouldn't apply in an Authority style game.

[Kristopher]

It's not real-world realism I'm looking for, just "within-setting realism." Given that there are beings with fantastic superhuman abilties, logically expand from there.

If a character has saved the city scores of times, the city should not instantly demand his head the first time a shapeshifter "puts on his face" and robs a freakin bank.

I want consistency. If a character can lift a battleship in issue 9, he should be able to easily lift a bus in issue 17. If A and B are a match in a fight, and B and C are a match in a fight, then (barring some logical reason) A and C should be a match in a fight -- C should not take A out in three moves or less.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
It all depends on the tactics, and the luck of the hit.

Namor doesn't just punch out Ben. He takes hits until he finds a way to turn the environment against the Thing.

I mean, it drives me nuts when people say strength is the only determining factor in a fight. Tactics, terrain, resourcefulness.

The Thing has been swatted around by characters who can only lift less than 2/3'ds of what he can because they're faster, or use better tactics or both.

I'm trying to find where I said strength was the only determining factor.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
It's not real-world realism I'm looking for, just "within-setting realism." Given that there are beings with fantastic superhuman abilties, logically expand from there.

If a character has saved the city scores of times, the city should not instantly demand his head the first time a shapeshifter "puts on his face" and robs a freakin bank.

I want consistency. If a character can lift a battleship in issue 9, he should be able to easily lift a bus in issue 17. If A and B are a match in a fight, and B and C are a match in a fight, then (barring some logical reason) A and C should be a match in a fight -- C should not take A out in three moves or less. Well, on strength, you could either go with a fixed weight and only a fixed weight or a table like this:
Strength roll
70% of normal max = str. roll +3
80% of normal max = str. roll +2
90% of normal max = str. roll +1
100% of normal max = str. roll
110% of normal max = str. roll -2
120% of normal max = str. roll -4
130% of normal max = str. roll -6
etc.

[Enforcer84]

That's kinda neat Agent X. I like that. Kinda feels like the ol' "optimal conditions" caveat Marvel had in its OHTTMU

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
That's kinda neat Agent X. I like that. Kinda feels like the ol' "optimal conditions" caveat Marvel had in its OHTTMU Hmmm, I just threw it out there. Thought of it on the spot - but I have been wondering what that strength roll is for so that's probably why it came to me.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Kristopher

I want consistency. If a character can lift a battleship in issue 9, he should be able to easily lift a bus in issue 17. If A and B are a match in a fight, and B and C are a match in a fight, then (barring some logical reason) A and C should be a match in a fight -- C should not take A out in three moves or less.

Actually, there is a little bit of real-life precedent for these sorts of mismatches. Take sports for example. Often, team A will beat team B by only a few points, team B will beat team C by only a few points, and then team C will absolutely maul team A.

College football, last year:
University of Southern California beat Colorado by a score of 40 to 3.
The next week, Kansas State beat USC 10 to 3.
Two weeks after that, Colorado beat Kansas State something like 35 to 31.

If this can happen in real life, it can happen in comics.

[Deadman]

Originally posted by Agent X
Well, on strength, you could either go with a fixed weight and only a fixed weight or a table like this:
Strength roll
70% of normal max = str. roll +3
80% of normal max = str. roll +2
90% of normal max = str. roll +1
100% of normal max = str. roll
110% of normal max = str. roll -2
120% of normal max = str. roll -4
130% of normal max = str. roll -6
etc.

Just thought I'd chime in with an article I did for Haymaker quite some time ago. Most of it still applies.

http://www.deadmansland.com/hero/files/strength.pdf

Let me know what you think,

T

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Deadman
Just thought I'd chime in with an article I did for Haymaker quite some time ago. Most of it still applies.

http://www.deadmansland.com/hero/files/strength.pdf

Let me know what you think,

T It didn't come up right. Might be a problem on my end. I just installed a new scanner and I am having problems.

[Deadman]

Originally posted by Agent X
It didn't come up right. Might be a problem on my end. I just installed a new scanner and I am having problems.

You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader

T

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Actually, there is a little bit of real-life precedent for these sorts of mismatches. Take sports for example. Often, team A will beat team B by only a few points, team B will beat team C by only a few points, and then team C will absolutely maul team A.

College football, last year:
University of Southern California beat Colorado by a score of 40 to 3.
The next week, Kansas State beat USC 10 to 3.
Two weeks after that, Colorado beat Kansas State something like 35 to 31.

If this can happen in real life, it can happen in comics.

It gets a little more complicated when whole teams are involved.

Additionally, you can usually go back and see why and how it happened in the real world. In comics, that's typically not the case.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Kristopher
It gets a little more complicated when whole teams are involved.

Additionally, you can usually go back and see why and how it happened in the real world. In comics, that's typically not the case.

It is a little more complicated, but often the reason can be as simple as "they had a bad day". Last season, Colorado had an awesome rushing attack (which was good, since they couldn't pass for crap). Somehow Southern Cal managed to keep them below 60 yards rushing (when they'd rack up 300 or 400 against teams later in the season), but USC's defense wasn't really that good. Everybody in the football world is mystified at Colorado's inability to win an early-season game.

Think of it this way. I've played in Champions games where some days I couldn't roll lower than a 16 to-hit to save my life. The enemies roll incredibly well, and I can't roll for a hill of beans. You could say that's what happened when some comics character gets spanked by another that he should be able to beat.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Kristopher
It gets a little more complicated when whole teams are involved.

Additionally, you can usually go back and see why and how it happened in the real world. In comics, that's typically not the case.

Not really. In tennis for example, there are many cases of Player A beating B, B beating C, and C beating A.

[Kristopher]

And again, you can usually tell why and how.

Not so in comics, where the only determining factors in who beats who are A) the needs of the story this month's writer wants to tell, and continuity be damned, and B) what results in the coolest art this month, continutity be damned.

Continuity. That's what I want.

[Enforcer84]

Continuity makes batman 80 years old. That isn't going to happen. I'd love to see it. I don't mind if A beats B, B beats C, and C beats A if they give me a convincing reason for the fights to go that way. Maybe B was suffering from the flu when he fought A, maybe C lucked out with a little divine intervnetion against A. Perhaps A's mind was elswhere. Generally a good story will often trump nit picking in my book.
I just wish I saw some of that....

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Deadman
You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader

T That's the problem. My Reader is out of whack because of the idiotic way the Scanner install worked.

[John Roberts]

Without scrolling through my books, and going just on memory, I still say that Ground is si the strongest, for he is a true brick, not a mastermind who rarely will use his brickness, he doesn't need boosts or growth spurts to get that extra umph he has it all along. So in straight out brick-ness Grond is stil the head man muscle wise, he doesn't do it on extra bells and whistles he does it with just the four arms and thats it. He's like your Grandpa's brick, he pummeled heroes in 12 feet of snow while walking to school and he didn't neeed cyber parts of growth.. he was just happy with his extra pair of arms.

I remember when a extra limb meant a extra +5 too STR... (a flashback to geezerdom)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Kristopher
And again, you can usually tell why and how.

Not so in comics, where the only determining factors in who beats who are A) the needs of the story this month's writer wants to tell, and continuity be damned, and B) what results in the coolest art this month, continutity be damned.

Continuity. That's what I want.

Yeah, it could simply be that one of them had a bad day, had a head cold, made lots of unforced errors or double faults, played on a bad surface, the opponent was simply inspired that day, etc. All of these factors could easily apply in comics offscreen.

Let's take Champions. We could easily matchup 3 relatively balanced characters and simply have the luck of the dice allow A to beat B, B to beat C, and C to beat A.

If you can accept this in roleplaying, why can't you accept this in a comic?

[Morningstar]

[QUOTE]Let's take Champions. We could easily matchup 3 relatively balanced characters and simply have the luck of the dice allow A to beat B, B to beat C, and C to beat A.

If you can accept this in roleplaying, why can't you accept this in a comic?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think 3 balanced characters is the problem. It's things like Human Torch defeating Graviton through kindergarten science or Wolverines popularity taking him from "tough mutant with claws who can still be defeated by top level human opponents" to "samurai, master of a thousand martial arts, superhumanly fast god-slicer".

It is those kind of issues that are the most frustrating to fans of continuity and good story telling.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by John Roberts
Without scrolling through my books, and going just on memory, I still say that Ground is si the strongest, for he is a true brick, not a mastermind who rarely will use his brickness, he doesn't need boosts or growth spurts to get that extra umph he has it all along. So in straight out brick-ness Grond is stil the head man muscle wise, he doesn't do it on extra bells and whistles he does it with just the four arms and thats it. He's like your Grandpa's brick, he pummeled heroes in 12 feet of snow while walking to school and he didn't neeed cyber parts of growth.. he was just happy with his extra pair of arms.

I remember when a extra limb meant a extra +5 too STR... (a flashback to geezerdom) I don't buy your criteria for strongest. I will measure strongest by who has the highest strength total. There are two characters in the CKC alone that have a higher strength.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Gargantua may have 100 STR, but he's easier to lay smack at that size than playing baseball with a beach ball.

And the Lemurian giant golem isn't a sentient being.

Either way... geddover it. Grond is the closest thing to the Hulk that the Champions Universe has (well, actually that's Ogre, but he's only STR 65). He's big and green, and he yells "Grond Strongest One There Is!"

He doesn't look at other villains' character sheets - he just goes out and lays the pounding down on his enemies, so even if they do own a couple extra dice for their smacks, it doesn't matter to Grond, because Grond at best what Grond do... and GROND SMASHES! Now that there's a translation by DOJ of the Hulk I think the closest thing to the Hulk is the Hulk. So... Hulk smashes puny Grond.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Gary
Yeah, it could simply be that one of them had a bad day, had a head cold, made lots of unforced errors or double faults, played on a bad surface, the opponent was simply inspired that day, etc. All of these factors could easily apply in comics offscreen.

Offscreen doesn't count. At all. If the book or movie or comic doesn't show me (or at least tell me) something, then it doesn't happen, and it doesn't exist, and it doesn't matter.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Kristopher
Offscreen doesn't count. At all. If the book or movie or comic doesn't show me (or at least tell me) something, then it doesn't happen, and it doesn't exist, and it doesn't matter.

If you only saw TV or read a newspaper and you saw that Justine Henin beat Serena Williams, would you say that offscreen doesn't count? Would you refuse to believe that Henin could do such a thing and scream "fix" or would you assume that Henin had a great day or Serena had an awful day?

Just because it's not seen doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Darren's Hulk might smash Grond, but to me, it looks like it would be as classic a rivalry as Hulk vs. the Abomination.

Frankly, Grond and Hulk both look equal in speed and fighting skill, and it'll take a little bit for Hulk to get significantly past Hulk levels to start applying real hurt. Darren's version is underpowered based on old translation material and it will still whip Grond.