Does the CU have a Superman?

[Yamo]

I've seen a lot of character rips in the CU (Doctor Destroyer, Batman, Joker, Iron Man, Hulk, Punisher, etc).

But is there a Superman?

I know Silver Age Sentinels has an iconic square-jawed flying brick in tights and a flashy cape who kicks more butt that just about everybody and stands for Truth, Justice and the whole shebang.

What about Champions? If not, does it need one and will one be added in an official product soon?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Yamo
I've seen a lot of character rips in the CU (Doctor Destroyer, Batman, Joker, Iron Man, Hulk, Punisher, etc).

But is there a Superman?

I know Silver Age Sentinels has an iconic square-jawed flying brick in tights and a flashy cape who kicks more butt that just about everybody and stands for Truth, Justice and the whole shebang.

What about Champions? If not, does it need one and will one be added in an official product soon? I think everyone needs a Superman Inspired Character. They had a few sorta kinda inspired characters in 4E. I guess it's a wait and see thing.

[Lord Liaden]

Hmm... I'm not sure that every supers universe needs an analog to Superman per se. It's more a matter of the roles that characters play in their respective worlds. Superman fills two main roles in the DC universe: that of the top powerhouse among heroes, the benchmark by which might is measured, who causes villains to go, "Whoa, I ain't fightin' him!" Superman is also the benchmark for courage, determination, and the highest ideals of heroism, and is almost universally respected by his peers and the public. Now in the Marvel Universe, those roles are divided between two figures: Thor as the standard of power, and Captain America as the standard of heroism.

The problem with creating the top NPC powerhouse in a game world, is that when he's around he detracts from the PCs who are supposed to be the focus of the story. It's easier to write a way around that in a comic book than to deal with that reality in a role-playing game. OTOH an Elder Statesman of the superhero community can be a fun element to mix into a game; someone with the prestige to call the young bucks to task and remind them of what they're really fighting for.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
The problem with creating the top NPC powerhouse in a game world, is that when he's around he detracts from the PCs who are supposed to be the focus of the story. It's easier to write a way around that in a comic book than to deal with that reality in a role-playing game. OTOH an Elder Statesman of the superhero community can be a fun element to mix into a game; someone with the prestige to call the young bucks to task and remind them of what they're really fighting for. I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Champions is a role-playing venue. How much fun are players going to have running 350 point characters when a 1500 point Übermensch is playing with them? If it's satisfying to run lower-point characters, then why don't you ever see players asking to run less-powerful characters? ("I know this is a 350-point game, but I really want to run a character with only 200 points.") It's one thing to build high-level superpowered foes for teams to fight, but nobody wants to look like an also-ran to an NPC hero. In comicspeak, the title characters are the heroes, not the hero making a guest appearance.

In my campaign we have several NPC heroes that are more powerful than the player characters, but they only appear "off camera," not in scenarios. They add flavor and depth to our gameworld, but I'm not going to allow such a character to outshine the heroes in the campaign. The only way I'll ever introduce one of them directly to the players is if I concoct a scenario where said powerful NPC has already got his head handed to him and needs the PC's help.

After all, the game isn't called Sidekicks.

[Doug McCrae]

There can be a Superman but he has to be dead or gone by the time the PCs arrive. Either he lost his powers to gold kryptonite in 1986 or was killed battling the Incredible Hulk in 1993.

[Monolith]

I try not to fill the major "clone" categories when playing in game worlds. I like to leave those areas for the players to explore. So if a player wants to be the next Superman, or Batman, or Captain America, or Thor he can. There is no conflict. Unfortunately there are some conflicts in the CU at times (Submariner and Green Lantern come to mind) but we have been able to work around them so far.

[steriaca]

There sorta WAS a Superman/Caption America "clone" in the Champions Universe. His was one of the first costumed heros ever. Now...if only I can remember his name...

(Shure, he can't fly and such...but neather did Superman in the 1930's).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by steriaca
There sorta WAS a Superman/Caption America "clone" in the Champions Universe. His was one of the first costumed heros ever. Now...if only I can remember his name...

(Shure, he can't fly and such...but neather did Superman in the 1930's).
His name was Captain Patriot. He was very much a Golden Age Superman/Capt. America type character.

[Tempuswolf]

There was a Supergirl in of all places the Viper sourcebook in 4th Ed, Viperia!

I don't remember her motivations but I don't think they included Truth, Justice, nor the American Way.

[Lord Liaden]

Viperia was obviously patterned after Supergirl in terms of her power set, but no, definitely not heroic motivations; she was VIPER's most powerfull staff supervillain and principle enforcer.

4E came kind of close to a Superman with the first Captain Australia from Hero System Almanac I, his country's greatest hero - essentially a flying brick with enhanced senses. Not on par with Supes' power level, but his style and visuals were similar. He was crippled in battle and his twin sister, with the same powers, took over his role as Cap Australia.

[Agent X]

There's no reason in a mature campaign with mature players that there can't be a Superman Archetype character in any number of roles. Be it PC, NPC, young turk or old guard. I am getting the feeling that players in a lot of campaigns are a great deal more jealous of NPCs than my group.

[Starwolf]

In my campaigns I reserve the clone slots for PCs, if a player wants a superman clone I help him to design a low powered version, then help him to understand how he might develop into a more powerful version over time.

[Hermit]

I think 'clone' slots often work against themselves. When RPers first start up in the super hero genre, there are cries of
"I wanna play Batman."
"I wanna be Wolverine"
"I get Spider-Man"
"Spawn rocks!"
and so on...

Then, the players grow a bit, and start wanting to play their 'own' creations... and that's great. However, it sometimes (not always) leads to a snobbery towards 'clones', even ones with some drastic changes.
"You want to play a guy with claws and quick healing? GEE, let me guess, he's Canadian too?" :rolleyes:

This can discourage players from even getting near those concepts. I used to sneer at Superman, back in my Marvel Zombie days. As I've grown older, I grow to appreciate him.

Ironically enough... one of my latest PCs (Don't get to play him much) is a superman clone. A flying brick with super vision array (No Heat vision though). He's decent, noble, very superman like in his ideals- I find I'm enjoying him very much.

Everything moves in circles :)

[JohnOSpencer]

You all forgot Captain Australia. He/She was a blatant Superman/girl clone. Just not quite as powerful(or silly powers wise) as Viperia.

John Spencer

[Hermit]

Actually, Lord Liaden already mentioned Captain Australia. :)

[BarryB]

Originally posted by Hermit
This can discourage players from even getting near those concepts. I used to sneer at Superman, back in my Marvel Zombie days. As I've grown older, I grow to appreciate him.

Ironically enough... one of my latest PCs (Don't get to play him much) is a superman clone. A flying brick with super vision array (No Heat vision though). He's decent, noble, very superman like in his ideals- I find I'm enjoying him very much.

Everything moves in circles :)

That's interesting. I've felt that Superman was an inherently conservative hero. (not that there's anything wrong with that) I enjoy Superman a great deal, more so now that I'm over 40 years old. It makes me wonder if maybe the basic decency of the character makes him more attractive to older males. Perhaps, as we age, we appreciate the moral straight arrow more than we did as a kid.

[assault]

Originally posted by BarryB
That's interesting. I've felt that Superman was an inherently conservative hero. (not that there's anything wrong with that) I enjoy Superman a great deal, more so now that I'm over 40 years old. It makes me wonder if maybe the basic decency of the character makes him more attractive to older males. Perhaps, as we age, we appreciate the moral straight arrow more than we did as a kid.

Well, I'm 40.

I think it's useful to remember that a lot of the Superman stories that were coming out back in the 70's and all that were pretty lame. Sometimes neat, but lame.

That doesn't apply to all the DC titles of the period, but I think if you compare Superman to the X-Men back then, you can see a considerable difference.

The Superman titles have improved since then - they've not quite so "dumb". On the other hand, the various Marvel mutant titles have tended to become a little bit self-indulgent. In My Humble Opinion, of course.

As for "moral straight arrows" - I could care less. On the other hand, I'm a whole lot less interested in whiny angst magnets. Superman (the present day one) is closer to being an adult than some other characters. (Bruce Wayne, on the other hand...)

Alan

[Doctor Agenda]

I am transforming my humble attempt at guessing what an Empyrean (CU) character would be like into a Superman type. He started off as a legacy-type hero: he accidentally absorbed the persona of a 10-year veteran vigilante, knocking the original into a coma and becoming Talion II. I found he had too many layers of secrets and wasn't comfortable playing someone so violent. After a villain he had decided had to be killed escaped to murder again (he felt he could have successfully captured him, it was trying to kill the Menton wannabe that gave him the opportunity to escape) he decided to find a way to restore the original Talion and get him out of his mind. Now calling himself Valiant, the only secret he's hiding is the existence of the Empyreans. He's a medium brick with psionic powers and Life Support who has decided to try to live up to the implied Heroic Code and eventually (over centuries perhaps) master being a superhero the way other Empyreans have mastered building or music. Not the standard for power in this campaign, but a good shot at the standard for heroism if I play him right. And yeah, I'm a bit over forty. Used to be a boy scout, too!:)

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by BarryB
That's interesting. I've felt that Superman was an inherently conservative hero. (not that there's anything wrong with that) I enjoy Superman a great deal, more so now that I'm over 40 years old. It makes me wonder if maybe the basic decency of the character makes him more attractive to older males. Perhaps, as we age, we appreciate the moral straight arrow more than we did as a kid.

Of course the irony is that Superman during the Golden Age, especially early golden age tended to lean to the left.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Of course the irony is that Superman during the Golden Age, especially early golden age tended to lean to the left. He was a crusader against government corruption and graft. As a reporter, he felt he would be able to get information of criminals working "in" the system. In many ways, he came off as much an avenger as BatMan in the early days. And then there are the war stories where he is killing Axis soldiers left and right.

[starblaze]

Golden Age Champions has a character called Captain Atlas. He is more or less a Captain Marvel/Shazam clone except he got his powers from a dying alien and he says lollapalooza! instead of Shazam!

[Agent X]

Originally posted by starblaze
Golden Age Champions has a character called Captain Atlas. He is more or less a Captain Marvel/Shazam clone except he got his powers from a dying alien and he says lollapalooza! instead of Shazam! Yep, he has figured mightily in our campaign. One of my characters has a strong connection to an aged Captain Atlas.

[Archon]

Originally posted by Agent X
He was a crusader against government corruption and graft. As a reporter, he felt he would be able to get information of criminals working "in" the system. In many ways, he came off as much an avenger as BatMan in the early days. And then there are the war stories where he is killing Axis soldiers left and right.

Batman also killed guys fairly often in those days. Not usually directly, but they died via accidents. Their traps got them instead, or they were thrown through a window during the fighting.

The code vs killing that we know so well was a consequence of the comics code that lasted mostly up until the early '90s. Ever since Image came on the scene (my pet peeve), it's been OK to kill 500+ bad guys a comic as long as they get in the angst and counterculture references.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Archon
Batman also killed guys fairly often in those days. Not usually directly, but they died via accidents. Their traps got them instead, or they were thrown through a window during the fighting.

The code vs killing that we know so well was a consequence of the comics code that lasted mostly up until the early '90s. Ever since Image came on the scene (my pet peeve), it's been OK to kill 500+ bad guys a comic as long as they get in the angst and counterculture references. Yeah, I lean far more toward the comics code authority than Image impulses.

[Lord Liaden]

Does anyone else with a hankering for a Superman type in their Champions campaign plan on porting over Sentinel from SAS once the Reality Storm conversion is published?

[djday38]

Sentinel is a good option, but his name clashes with one of the biggest hero teams in the new CU.

However, he is a cool character that I like, but in another thread someone mentioned a character called Vanguard who pops up as a referance in the CU book who might just be the guy we are looking for.

Any chance Darren could tell us a little bit about this guy?
and if he will eventually be covered in DH or a silver age book?

thks in advance
Dean

[Yamo]

The code vs killing that we know so well was a consequence of the comics code that lasted mostly up until the early '90s.

Man, do I hate the comics code. So many good writers hamstrung for so many years. The moral and thematic development of the medium stunted for literally decades!

Thankfully it all started to unravel eventually and by the 80s, books like Punisher, Frank Miller's Batman and Watchmen were making superhero comics truly worthwhile works on a creative level again.

Still, so much time lost. Just imagine where things might be now if the shackles had been off the writers and artists all that time...

[Zaratustra]

Still, so much time lost. Just imagine where things might be now if the shackles had been off the writers and artists all that time...

All superhero comics would have been banned and we'd have to play the Archie and Peanuts RPGs?

[Kid Chaos]

Actually not all comics abided by that code during the 80s. Most of those that didn't aren't here anymore. Elementals is a good example of this as they argued heavily in comic on how silly it was to let villians go free.

Sadly Elementals is no longer around to enjoy a more liberal writing atmosphere.

[Hermit]

Well, I've always been a big Captain America fan... my gripes as a Teen weren't with Superman's straight arrowness nearly as much as his power levels made him so immune to everything (barring the occaisional green rock) that he bored me to tears. They later down powered him, but by then I was a confirmed Marvel Zombie. Later I grew to like him again thanks to the 'Animated Adventures' in the 90's.

As for the comic book code authority...that was self imposed because of a society wide paranoia brought on in part by a quack psychologist (My opinion only) . I believe at the time, it was the right move or society might have destroyed the comic industry entirely. It also did help form the superhero genre many of us know and love today.

Then again, I'm a fan of Silver and Bronze ages. The 'Iron age' leaves me cold.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Yamo
Man, do I hate the comics code. So many good writers hamstrung for so many years. The moral and thematic development of the medium stunted for literally decades!

Thankfully it all started to unravel eventually and by the 80s, books like Punisher, Frank Miller's Batman and Watchmen were making superhero comics truly worthwhile works on a creative level again.

Still, so much time lost. Just imagine where things might be now if the shackles had been off the writers and artists all that time... Yep, we sure missed out back in the "before time" on bikini clad smart a$$ed teenagers who throw cosmic fits and have pre-marital sex, complaining about their lives and getting in fights with villains who aren't particularly concerned with anything other than fighting the "heroes." There isn't much in the Comics Code, as it was enforced in the 70s & 80s, that a good writer couldn't write around and tell a fine story without resorting to T&A, the macabre, and other baser instincts.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Hermit

...
Then, the players grow a bit, and start wanting to play their 'own' creations... and that's great. However, it sometimes (not always) leads to a snobbery towards 'clones', even ones with some drastic changes.
"You want to play a guy with claws and quick healing? GEE, let me guess, he's Canadian too?" :rolleyes:
....


Many truths here. However...

Have you ever tried to create a truly original character? After nearly seventy years of superheroes (thousands of years if you count the likes of Hercules), what hasn't been done?

This became clear to me when I gamed with a nephew who took it as a quest to create a character that I hadn't ever seen before (I collected comics for decades). No matter what he did, I could always identify a Marvel or DC character who "was just like that". He even tried a character who had super-strong jaws and Universal Digestion ("Just like Matter-Eater Lad!"; "Arrrrggh!!").

So I see no problem with "clones". Most of my characters are pretty straightforward, and I even like to describe them as looking like some actor ("Jack Hammer looks like Jesse Ventura"). Helps get a handle on him/her. I always like to put a twist on it to make it at least somewhat unique, though.

The only PC I have that I can't recall a comic-book version of is one that could absorb energy and use it in various ways. However, if he used too much energy he would start dying. He needed absorbed energy the way normals need food, but at a vastly accelerated time rate (he would die within a few minutes if depleted). He is sort of a living capacitor or battery.

I'm sure this has been done, but I don't know where.

[Jeff T.]

I sorta got the impression that the current Empyrean 'prince whatshisname' fills the Superman archetype in CU.

[Killer Shrike]

The thing with Supes is, he doesnt fit an archetype; he straddles several archetypes. He is the penultimate Flying Speedster Energy Projector Patriot Brick!

As such he doesnt fit easily in the point ranges of most Champions games ;)

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Yamo

Still, so much time lost. Just imagine where things might be now if the shackles had been off the writers and artists all that time...

Yeah. We might have had all the crapola that we got in the 90's in the 70's, and it might have died with Disco and no one would do anything even remotely like it again, due to association.
hmmm... I would like that world. :-)

I'm one who gave up a lot of comic reading in the late eigties during the Dark Knight/Watchmen inspired garbage *, and Image (yech, bleh bleh yuck). Morrison's run on the JLA and Kurt's Astro City brought me back- proving to me that there were writers who wanted to write what I wanted to read.

* Dark Knight and Watchmen were brilliant. The stuff that imitated them is what I am referring to.

[BlackSword]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

The problem with creating the top NPC powerhouse in a game world, is that when he's around he detracts from the PCs who are supposed to be the focus of the story. It's easier to write a way around that in a comic book than to deal with that reality in a role-playing game. OTOH an Elder Statesman of the superhero community can be a fun element to mix into a game; someone with the prestige to call the young bucks to task and remind them of what they're really fighting for.

A year or two ago Cartoon Network had a series of pilot shows on and the viewers choose the next cartoon they would produce. The end product was they choose the Grim&Evil show. One of the cartoons though was about a superhero organization, and one of the heroes was the old guy from the previous age, he was pretty much a superman clone, except at age 70 or so. Needless to say the end of the show was this old guy going down and showing the young pups how to do it. It was a fairly humourous concept, but I don't know how well it would fit in the Champions Universe if you knew that if you lost some powerful older superhero would swoop in and save the day.

Depending on the genre an elder powerful superhero who has retired to a life of politics, debating, activism, philantropy, etc, can act as a way to ease people's minds to metahumans. On the other hand, Superman has done several things (the robots in the comics, and Legacy in the animated series) to hurt people's trust in him and hence problaby the superhero community in general.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starlord
I sorta got the impression that the current Empyrean 'prince whatshisname' fills the Superman archetype in CU.
Prince Archon is better identified with either Ikaris or Orion as the Empyrians are very much like the Eternals and New Gods. Neither of those characters is very Superman-like.

[Lord Mhoram]

In responce about Superman, I dont really see a strong one in the CU. And he also fills one more role in comics besides the "ultimate powerhouse" and the "Patriot". Superman is the ultimate selfless hero. He worries about who he can save, and what he could do more, at the same time, worrying if he is doing to much. KB got that aspect of him dead on in Samaritin from Astro City.


Start: Old Campaign Ramblings

In my last Champs game, I had supers appear (wildcardlike) when the game started in 91. The first superhero in the world (NPC) was a minibrick EP (solar powers) named Native Sun. Somewhat patriotic. Top of the heap powers wise. Spent his entire life and all his time trying to help others. His undergoal in becoming a superhero and he worked behind the scenes to push this agenda as well, was to motivate all those with large powers to be costumed crime fighters (or villians) in the four color mode- he saw this as a way for people to accept those with powers because the worked in a previously seen social niche (even if fiction). It was also the GM handwaving that a modern creation of Superheroes would end up four color. He was my "Superman"

Late in the life of the campaign, the team name was Watchtower (base on the moon, years before the JLA- Arrgh). Each player had two characters (we rotated). And all of the social niches were filled by PCs.
Native Sun - selfless hero, and toughest guy on the block.
The Marshall - The Patriot & the Female Hero
Jack Diamond - Urban Avenger
Psyche - The tortured background Telepath
Ballistic - The Supersuit Scientist
The Shih - The Supermage / Mysterious guy
Magnetite - The young girl coming into her powers.
Pheonix - The Sidekick (of the Marshall).
Bayoushi - The God Amoung us.
Humoungous - The Bestial Brick
White Dragon - The Martial Artist/stealth guy
Pheaduex - (Cat supersuit) the team clown.

End: Old Campaign Ramblings

And the reason I bring this up, other than to give out old war stories, is in at least one case, having the "superman" yardstick as an NPC worked. All the players understood what was going on, and no one minded. The fact that as the campaign had run for years they realized they were filling the social niches of classic characters, they were rather enthusiastic about the whole thing. During the huge multiparter that kicked off the new line up of the team (resetting the comic to issue one with a new line up) the above team went toe to toe with some of the nastiest villians in my world, and no one felt bad that Native Sun was a ways out trading blows with Doctor Destroyer, while they fought Viperia, Menton, Mechanon and Archimago and others. When Native Sun went down, and Dr D left, everyone was shellshocked.

So if done right (and with mature players that I am thankful that I have) that kind of thing does not cause a problem.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
They had to come up with a new "archetype" for him over in M&M. They call it "an Original." After Big Blue... and the Big Red Cheese, and the Ivory Icon.
So I gater Big Blue = Supes, Big Red Cheese = Flash, but who's the Ivory Icon?

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
So I gater Big Blue = Supes, Big Red Cheese = Flash, but who's the Ivory Icon?

Given Sentinel's costume is mostly white, and he is Iconic for SAS I would assume that was Sentinel.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
The Big Red Cheese is Captain Marvel!

No Holy Moley for you! :mad:

The Ivory Icon is my third in the red-white-and blue trilogy. It's the revamped Alan Moore Supreme. Yes, but I believe Killer Shrike was victim of a typo. After all, the Flash is the Big Red Cheese Whiz ;)

[Tempuswolf]

Originally posted by Agent X
Yes, but I believe Killer Shrike was victim of a typo. After all, the Flash is the Big Red Cheese Whiz ;)

chuckle:p

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Must cleanse mind. Must cleanse mind. Well, he did appear in Whiz Comics #1. Captain Marvel appeared in Flash Comics #1. Captain Marvel was supposed to appear in Fawcett's Whiz Comics #1 but it wasn't... quick <cringe> enough to beat National's Whiz Comics. In that version, Captain Marvel would have been Captain Thunder. So, there is a bit of a tie to the two characters in the name of magazine titles and color concept. So, maybe their nicknames should be closely connected too? :D

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Uh huh... one problem.

Fantastic Four roast.

The Whizzer.

Add cheese.

Bad thoughts. Bad thoughts. :o The Whizzer is a horrible name. Sounds like someone needs Depends undergarments.

However, that character should be the Big Yellow Cheese Whiz.

[Agent X smiles as he stubbornly punishes his fellow posters.] :)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Arthur
Many truths here. However...

Have you ever tried to create a truly original character?
Oh, agreed... I've even seen some struggle so hard to be original they ended up having no fun at all, thus losing track of why we're playing in the first place.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit
Oh, agreed... I've even seen some struggle so hard to be original they ended up having no fun at all, thus losing track of why we're playing in the first place. The trick isn't in building an original character. It is in building a compelling character - one that elicits interest beyond the nature of power construction. Often, a character whose powers and purposes don't look at all original can be quite interesting because of the character's origin and the character's supporting cast.

[Hermit]

Well, again, agreed. :)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit
Well, again, agreed. :) Maybe one of these days I will convince you that 4th Ed Champions were better than the 5E versions. :)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Agent X
Maybe one of these days I will convince you that 4th Ed Champions were better than the 5E versions. :)

Never!
Well, maybe... but not today :)

Back on Topic, I do have an NPC Superman type in my game named Mega Man (No relation). He's been around since WW2, just growing more and more powerful...and less human. He no longer needs to sleep, his hearing is so accute he can hear cries for helps for miles... etc. I plan to remove him soon.... in a suitably dramatic way and see which if any players rise to fill the void.

[Kristopher]

Coming in late...

The problem with Supes is that he doesn't just have the "Code of the Hero," PsychLim, he also has the "Heroically Stupid" PsychLim. His raw power gets him through so often that he seldom stops to think until it's brutally obvious that he has to. He throws himself into situations at the drop of a hat, and sometimes gets in over his head for it, when a little thought would have samed him a lot of pain and trouble.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
Coming in late...

The problem with Supes is that he doesn't just have the "Code of the Hero," PsychLim, he also has the "Heroically Stupid" PsychLim. His raw power gets him through so often that he seldom stops to think until it's brutally obvious that he has to. He throws himself into situations at the drop of a hat, and sometimes gets in over his head for it, when a little thought would have samed him a lot of pain and trouble. Well, what does your interpretation of Superman have to do with the premise of using a character like him as an icon? Are you saying you don't like the character and therefore wouldn't have a Supermannish Icon?

[JmOz]

In my campeign I have two German Supermen clones, one more powerful than the other:

Der Unbezwingbare (The Unconquerable, someone who speaks the language can check my spelling) is the more powerful of the two and his origin is quite similar to the DC character with a couple changes. Obviously his ship landed in Germany, the technology of the ship messed with his DNA to make him look human. His alien powers took time to assert themself, etc...

Mut (Valor): is the natural son of the couple that adopted Unbezwingbare and was born 8 years later (making him abuot 20). As a child of 7 he was injured, his brother was the only one around who the local doctor knew could provide a blood transfusion, the transfusion gave him powers as he aged. (Kind of borrowed it from She Hulk)

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Agent X
Well, what does your interpretation of Superman have to do with the premise of using a character like him as an icon? Are you saying you don't like the character and therefore wouldn't have a Supermannish Icon?

No, but my Superman-template NPC suffers from the same personal flaws I mentioned. I just wanted to point it out because it's not something that gets talked about for that character often enough.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
No, but my Superman-template NPC suffers from the same personal flaws I mentioned. I just wanted to point it out because it's not something that gets talked about for that character often enough. I have heard it before. I chalk it up to lazy writing more than anything else.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Kristopher
No, but my Superman-template NPC suffers from the same personal flaws I mentioned. I just wanted to point it out because it's not something that gets talked about for that character often enough.

It all depends on whether your "clone" is after personality of the original, style, social position or deconstructed comics role fulfillment.

[GestaltBennie]

I like the archetype; it's pretty much the quintessence of the four-color genre. Just as long as the PCs in an upper-medium-to-high powered game have the opportunity to eventually reach his level of power and gameworld respect, I have no problems with it.

The "why do you need the PCs if Supes is around?" syndrome is a bit of a problem, (just as it can be to fanatical comic book fans who wonder why there aren't more crossovers in a superhero world). My world has a lot of active NPCs; my solution for my Superman-like character was to have him do a lot of work for the space program and be happier doing it than flying around dirty cties and getting into brawls, so there was a built-in buffer between him and the PCs. Even so, I gave the PCs opportunities to bond with him, and they must have worked, because late in the campaign I ran a session where the first half hour of the game was taken up watching him fight an alien champion ("with the fate of earth in the balance!") via satellite from an alien world. I was worried the players would get bored fast, but they were quite happy to spend that time making comments and cheering him on during the battle. .

Scott Bennie

[Agent X]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
I like the archetype; it's pretty much the quintessence of the four-color genre. Just as long as the PCs in an upper-medium-to-high powered game have the opportunity to eventually reach his level of power and gameworld respect, I have no problems with it.

The "why do you need the PCs" is a bit of a problem, just as it can be to fanatical comic book fans who wonder why there aren't more crossovers in a superhero world. My world has a lot of NPCs; my solution for my Superman character was to have him do a lot of work for the space program and be happier doing it than flying around dirty cties and getting into brawls, so there was a built-in buffer between him and the PCs. Even so, I gave the PCs opportunities to bond with him, and they must have worked, because late in the camaign I ran a session where the first half hour of the game was taken up watching him fight an alien champion ("with the fate of earth in the balance!") via satellite from an alien world. I was worried the players would get bored fast, but they were quite happy to spend that time making comments and cheering him on during the battle. .

Scott Bennie Yep, if used properly, these non-player characters can become old friends to the players.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Hermit
As for the comic book code authority...that was self imposed because of a society wide paranoia brought on in part by a quack psychologist (My opinion only) . I believe at the time, it was the right move or society might have destroyed the comic industry entirely. It also did help form the superhero genre many of us know and love today.I think it was largely an opportunistic move designed to put EC out of business.

General Standards Part A
11) The letters of the word "crime" on a comics magazine shall never be appreciably greater than the other words contained in the title. The word "crime" shall never appear alone on a cover.
12) Restraint in the use of the word "crime" in titles or subtitles shall be exercised.

General Standards Part B
1) No comic magazine shall use the word "horror" or "terror" in its title.
2) All scenes of horror, excessive bloodshed, gory or gruesome crimes, depravity, lust, sadism, masochism shall not be permitted.
...
5) Scenes dealing with, or instruments associated with walking dead, torture vampires and vampirism, ghouls, cannibalism, and werewolfism are prohibited.


I particularly like the term 'werewolfism'.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
The thing with Supes is, he doesnt fit an archetype; he straddles several archetypes. He is the penultimate Flying Speedster Energy Projector Patriot Brick!Under my current thinking on archetypes, Superman is a Brick, or Strongman as I call them, just like the mythological Hercules. All the other powers are just trimmings, Supes is mainly the strongest guy around.

Even though he can run faster than the speed of light that isn't his main shtick. It's Flash's shtick but not Superman's. Likewise with patriot. The guys in the red, white and blue costumes are the real patriots, with Superman it's a secondary feature.

[Klytus]

In my campaign, there is Captain Champion, who fills the role of Superman/Captain America. Meta-humans have been on Earth since the Dawn of Time, only the world governments worked hard to keep their existance a secret - mainly to keep them under control. The Champion appeared in the U.S. in 1970, the first public super-hero in history. He isn;t so much for Truth, Justice and the American Way, but Truth, Justice and the American Dream. He is not only very powerful, but noble, heroic, friendly, ... all the things you'd want in a good role-model. Like Superman, he has inspired a whole generation of heroes to follow his example. He became known as Captain Champion when he actually joined PATRIOT (my version of PRIMUS) and was given the rank of captain to form the first govt. sanctioned super-hero team, the Champions.

He is still active in the world, but it is always off in the sidelines so he does not overshadow the players or their exploits. I simply find having him there is useful for me: its gives the campaign a sense of history. It also fuels my nostalga, as I am a big fan of Supes, and wanted to have an iconic hero like him as the standard of what being a true hero is all about.

[Rage]

Originally posted by Hermit
Never!
Well, maybe... but not today :)

Back on Topic, I do have an NPC Superman type in my game named Mega Man (No relation). He's been around since WW2, just growing more and more powerful...and less human. He no longer needs to sleep, his hearing is so accute he can hear cries for helps for miles... etc. I plan to remove him soon.... in a suitably dramatic way and see which if any players rise to fill the void.

ARRRRRG!!! I THOUGHT I WAS SO ORIGINAL!
DURN IT!!!

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Rage
ARRRRRG!!! I THOUGHT I WAS SO ORIGINAL!
DURN IT!!!

There, there Rage. We'll just use the old saying "Great Minds think alike!" and that way we both end up looking good :D

[Mutant for Hire]

One of my irrational pet peeves about Superman is that everyone considers him the ultimate hero and yet it is very hard for him to be truly heroic when you're that powerful and that invulnerable. Facing someone with a gun when you're bulletproof isn't an act of heroism.

[Hermit]

That was my gripe with him when I was younger, MfH. Now, I just watch a Justice League rerun where he gets slapped around alot. I actually feel sorry for the guy now; on that show, they've taken it too far the other way.

[dbcowboy]

Superman's still considered the strongest/toughest hero of the lot, the comics/cartoons have simply brought him back down to a range where the character is interesting again. How many of us remember what the comic was like before DC rereleased it and many of their lineups in the mid to late 80's? Ever villian he fought either a) had Kryptonite, b) used magic or c) had mental powers, because those were the ONLY things left that he was vulnerable to. The stories had become extremely lame and predictable because of it. Now he actually gets hurt once in a while. Occasionally he has to ignore the pain and continue to rise up to meet his opponents. Now you can see that he actually puts his life on the line for the world. Now the stories are more meaningful.

[BlackKnight]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet (i'm responding to a post on page 3) so I'll apologize in advance if someone else pointed this out already...

We recently saw Finding Nemo and they had a preview of the next Disney/Pixar feature (due in 2005). It is called The Incredibles, and the preview centers around Mr. Incredible. We first see him in a series of photos and clippings on his den wall. He receives a call on the "red phone" and prepares to leap into action. As we finally see him, it turns out he's long past his prime and can't seem to fit into his utility belt any longer. It's very funny and should be great (as all Pixar films have been, IMO), especially for us superhero fans.

Some info (http://www.upcomingmovies.com/pixar2003.html)




Originally posted by BlackSword
A year or two ago Cartoon Network had a series of pilot shows on and the viewers choose the next cartoon they would produce. The end product was they choose the Grim&Evil show. One of the cartoons though was about a superhero organization, and one of the heroes was the old guy from the previous age, he was pretty much a superman clone, except at age 70 or so. Needless to say the end of the show was this old guy going down and showing the young pups how to do it. It was a fairly humourous concept, but I don't know how well it would fit in the Champions Universe if you knew that if you lost some powerful older superhero would swoop in and save the day.

Depending on the genre an elder powerful superhero who has retired to a life of politics, debating, activism, philantropy, etc, can act as a way to ease people's minds to metahumans. On the other hand, Superman has done several things (the robots in the comics, and Legacy in the animated series) to hurt people's trust in him and hence problaby the superhero community in general.

[BlackKnight]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
Even so, I gave the PCs opportunities to bond with him, and they must have worked, because late in the campaign I ran a session where the first half hour of the game was taken up watching him fight an alien champion ("with the fate of earth in the balance!") via satellite from an alien world. I was worried the players would get bored fast, but they were quite happy to spend that time making comments and cheering him on during the battle.



That's very cool...sounds like some quality role-playing there...good times!



Originally posted by GestaltBennie
I like the archetype; it's pretty much the quintessence of the four-color genre. Just as long as the PCs in an upper-medium-to-high powered game have the opportunity to eventually reach his level of power and gameworld respect, I have no problems with it.

The "why do you need the PCs if Supes is around?" syndrome is a bit of a problem, (just as it can be to fanatical comic book fans who wonder why there aren't more crossovers in a superhero world). My world has a lot of active NPCs; my solution for my Superman-like character was to have him do a lot of work for the space program and be happier doing it than flying around dirty cties and getting into brawls, so there was a built-in buffer between him and the PCs.



In my perpetually-embryonic campaign/world, the Superman rung of the power ladder is filled by Omega Prime, leader of a small team of heroes (with Omega in it's name ;-) I envision him as very Superman-like in terms of powers/power level, but very enigmatic and aloof. (I think that perhaps he has never spoken, or only very rarely). The team is based in Antarctica (to avoid territorial favoritism) and generally only operates on a global-scale, most often vs. natural disasters, though sometimes vs. human-caused situations. There is a UN connection to the team, but not anything formal (they are independent and don't take orders, in other words). The other members of the team are lower-powered (though still pretty high on the scale) and more human/approachable. They follow Prime's lead though, and he sets the tone for what they do and don't do. You could ask the question why don't they spend all of their time solving the smaller-scale but still overwhelming problems of the world. I figure they have good reasons, but no one really knows what they are (hence the aloof/enigmatic thang). This way, they don't overshadow the "PC's" (if I had any), but still function as the "top of the scale".

This Omega Prime guy is obviously not the Last Boy Scout that Supes is (I've never been a big DC fan, but you gotta give props to Supes!). I haven't given that "slot" as much thought, but it would probably be filled by the US' resident most-powerful SuperPatriot (not sure who that is yet).

[Doug McCrae]

Well how about this? Everyone agrees the problem with Superman is the powers. But we like his stature and gravitas - the 'old man' of the superhero community.

So the answer is - he's still around but he no longer has any powers. He lost them in 1986 to Gold Kryptonite as per Alan Moore's Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow? He may be in hiding from his many remaining enemies but like all old people he won't be able to resist butting in on the new generation of heroes - the PCs - to tell them they're doing everything all wrong.