Were the old Champions really that much better?

[Hermit]

I see the results from JmOz's polls, it seems like there are a lot of fans of the Guardians or 4th Ed Champions team. Nothing wrong with that. :)

However, I often hear how the previous teams were 'better' or 'cooler' than the 5th Edition ones. I'm really not so sure about that. I've rather grown to like the new crew, and when viewed on their own... they seem to hold their own and often seem better constructed (Though, even then there are mistakes).

So, is it nostalgia that calls so many back to the teams of yesterdecade?:)

Frankly, I think part of it is familiarity and how we've gotten a chance over time to know the Guardians (via earlier edditions or Heroic Publishing) , and the 4e Crew (fiction bits laced through out 4th Ed supplements for example). We haven't really had much of a time to emotionally invest in the 5e crew. We won't be reading of the exploits of Ironclad as he adjusts to Earth. It's too soon to really watch Witchcraft grow into a more confident mystic.. and so on.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Enforcer84]

Oddly enough, we know only about the Guardians through either the Champions comic or the examples in previous editions. I do believe that nostalgia plays a big part.

Personally however, I don't really vote along one groups line. If I had my druthers I'd pick:

Marksman
Quantum (New Millenium)
Obsidian
Solitaire
Gargoyle
Jaguar
Defender (4E)
and Nighthawk, to be my Champions. All at 350 pts + 50-75 pts of additional exerience to show that they are a more experienced group.

I don't dislike any of the character, I just like this group better. Though the various Defenders would need to change names and concepts slightly, and Witchcraft would need to at least look different; I could easily use all 24 characters in a campaign world.

[Hermit]

Mmm, that's an interesting point... I suppose everyone could alter past and present members to fit their 'dream team'.

[Mutant for Hire]

I think part of it is that with so little known about the Guardians everyone filled in the blanks to suit their own tastes. Only having a hint of each character allowed people to customize them more.

And to some extent I think that part of the problem isn't that the old Champions were so much better but the new Champions characters in many cases were clearly knockoffs of the old Champions, or failed to be a significant improvement. I fail to see why Obsidian had to be replaced with Ironclad or Solitaire with Witchcraft. Quantum never had that much popularity but I don't consider Sapphire an improvement.

I think if the new Champions lineup had been:

Defender
Quantum
Obsidian
Solitaire
Nighthawk
Kinetic

with Jaguar and Seeker replaced by Kinetic and Nighthawk, there would have been less complaining. Nighthawk brings more to the team and a speedster also fleshes out the team complement more than a werebeast does. I doubt that many people actually miss either of them.

Now a little retooling and revamping might have not been out of line. For example, many consider the Quantum of Champtions: TNM to be an improvement over the original, even if Team Defender was not. But some of the lineup replacements were clearly gratuitous and were far too close to the originals for my taste.

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
I think part of it is that with so little known about the Guardians everyone filled in the blanks to suit their own tastes. Only having a hint of each character allowed people to customize them more.

And to some extent I think that part of the problem isn't that the old Champions were so much better but the new Champions characters in many cases were clearly knockoffs of the old Champions, or failed to be a significant improvement. I fail to see why Obsidian had to be replaced with Ironclad or Solitaire with Witchcraft. Quantum never had that much popularity but I don't consider Sapphire an improvement.


Sapphire is a subject I won't touch, because I'm just not sure whether I like her or not. Come to think of it, I never liked Quantum to begin with, so I guess maybe anything would be an improvement.

As to why the characters had to be replaced; I remember seeing elsewhere on the boards that there were various copyright issues that prevented the current incarnation of Hero Games from using certain characters. I'm not sure if Defender's "copy rights" were bought up or just passed down, but any team called the Champions would have to have him. It would BE the Champions without Defender.

[JmOz]

I am fairly certain that all of the 4th edition Champions are owned by DoJ

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
I think part of it is that with so little known about the Guardians everyone filled in the blanks to suit their own tastes. Only having a hint of each character allowed people to customize them more.

And to some extent I think that part of the problem isn't that the old Champions were so much better but the new Champions characters in many cases were clearly knockoffs of the old Champions, or failed to be a significant improvement. I fail to see why Obsidian had to be replaced with Ironclad or Solitaire with Witchcraft. Quantum never had that much popularity but I don't consider Sapphire an improvement.

I think if the new Champions lineup had been:

Defender
Quantum
Obsidian
Solitaire
Nighthawk
Kinetic

with Jaguar and Seeker replaced by Kinetic and Nighthawk, there would have been less complaining. Nighthawk brings more to the team and a speedster also fleshes out the team complement more than a werebeast does. I doubt that many people actually miss either of them.

Now a little retooling and revamping might have not been out of line. For example, many consider the Quantum of Champtions: TNM to be an improvement over the original, even if Team Defender was not. But some of the lineup replacements were clearly gratuitous and were far too close to the originals for my taste. I think quite a few of us old-timers actually know a great deal about the Guardians. They were in a comic book which is more than can be said for the rest. I didn't like some of the themes of that particular book which is probably why they don't get my vote. It is creepy to have a sexually active woman who is physically aging twice as fast so - she is really nine when she begins having "adult" experiences.

I like the 4th E characters more than 5th E because the characters' backgrounds are more interesting to me. An violent doctor who has a grudge against gangs beats a flirt/tart (you decide). An alien prince/diplomat is far more intriguing than another alien gladiator. A mystic with a widget (I love the widget) hunted by the evil mystic order that tried to use her as a pawn is more interesting than a generic "clone" of said mystic. Beyond Seeker's implausible origin, he is a much more fun character than a pale shade of BatMan. Hey, that's just my opinion.:)

[Cybertooth]

I guess I'm just an old fart at heart. I really have no problems with the new characters. However, I much prefer the older characters, especially those that go way back to the beginning.

I've started playing Champions from the beginning. I've also collected everything from the beginning on. Unfortunately my 5th ed. collection has stalled due to a lack of funds, but I'm working on that. Also, I currently don't have a current campaign running right now, so I have no reason (yet) to get used to, or familiarized with the newer characters.

For me, the older characters had a certain charm to them. The rules were simple and they were simple. They were in essence blank slates that we tweaked to fill our needs. We "filled in the blanks" as we developed our campaigns, and in doing so they became an integral part of those campaigns.
The same goes for the villains. I mean, who didn't fight Ogre and Pulsar as their first adventure?

Sure, the older rules did not cover practically every concievable power. But, a lot of us were younger then and our characters and games were simpler. Rules were made on the fly, as were combat decisions, and new powers for those that didn't exist. We had more time to devote to the game. Now, we are older adults and a lot of simply don't have that kind of time to invest. For me, it was always about the game, not about having a perfectly created mathmatically correct character or villain

There was a reason Classic Enemies was so popular. Personally, I'd like to see all (and I mean all) the older characters created 5th edition style. I'd love Hero Games to put it out as a book. I would love to see Gargoyle, Icestar, Dove, Marksman, Rose, Goliath, and the others. I always wondered what that spider/human hybrid that fired a beam from his forehead in Champions II (???) was and what his character sheet looked like. I always wanted a name and stats for the villain on the cover of the original Champions and Enemies rulebook (although, I think there was a contest to name him, I never found out officially what it was--I always referred to him as Cyclopean. Heck, he was probably Dr. Destroyer).

I got a little off topic, sorry. So nostalgia? Yes. Where the old ones better? Not really. Did I get more use out of and more familiar with the older ones? Yes.

[Kid Chaos]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
Oddly enough, we know only about the Guardians through either the Champions comic or the examples in previous editions. I do believe that nostalgia plays a big part.

The old Champions comics and Flare comic posted stats for the characters. I should still have the issue with Rose's stats in fact.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Cybertooth
I mean, who didn't fight Ogre and Pulsar as their first adventure?My first adventure was Viper's Nest. I was knocked out and nearly killed by Brick. Well, I only had a PD of 2.

[Monolith]

I think nostalgia is the biggest part of it. I came into Champions with 3rd Edition so I did not get much information on the Guardians until years later when I bought the older products. A year or two after I became involved with Champions I had the wonderful Strike Force come out, and that was really all the superhero team example characters I needed.

As far as the Guardians themselves, the only characters I was really interested in were Gargoyle and Goliath. The others seemed somewhat plain to me. I never really cared about the 4th Edition Champions (to me Quantum was the only interesting one) and became even more uninterested when all the covers started appearing with Seeker always getting beaten. I happen to like many of the 5th Edition Champions. They are a little less original but I think they make for more interesting characters. They seem to have more personality then earlier characters and I like using them in my MC game.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Cybertooth
I always wanted a name and stats for the villain on the cover of the original Champions and Enemies rulebook (although, I think there was a contest to name him, I never found out officially what it was--I always referred to him as Cyclopean. Heck, he was probably Dr. Destroyer).

They ended up naming him Holocaust, although IIRC he never had a published writeup in Adventurers Club where the contest was held. He does now, though, in Conquerors, Killers and Crooks. He's a would-be world conqueror, a step or two below Dr. D or Mechanon on the power scale - some wags have started referring to him as the new Prof. Muerte. ;)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Agent X
I

An violent doctor who has a grudge against gangs beats a flirt/tart (you decide). An alien prince/diplomat is far more intriguing than another alien gladiator. A mystic with a widget (I love the widget) hunted by the evil mystic order that tried to use her as a pawn is more interesting than a generic "clone" of said mystic. Beyond Seeker's implausible origin, he is a much more fun character than a pale shade of BatMan. Hey, that's just my opinion.:)

Well, Quantum, while amusing in the 'Lucy Van Pelt' way, is just the sort of character that I wouldn't want in MY team if I were playing one: Pessemistic, violent, and bad for morale.

Sapphire may seem to lack depth, but the 'drag on a team' kind of depth I don't like.

Okay, I admit it. I like Ironclad better. I think Ironclad's better suited to his profession (Why didn't Obsidian have more leadership/diplomacy skills?) and has more built in plot hooks of the sort I'd like to use.
Don't get me wrong, they're both good, but each judged solely on their own merits... I like Ironclad a bit more.

Okay, on Solitaire, you may have got me. I want to like Witchcraft a LOT, and on her own, she's even good... but her only improvement on Soli is that Witchcraft is pure mystic, where as Solitaire was an odd hybrid of Mentalist/Mystic (no one could ever decide). Witchcraft should have either had a different origin story or personality to differentiate her from Solitaire. I'm hoping time will help her develop the latter.

Nighthawk started out as my least favorite, but I've really grown to like him. I like the swashbuckler type, but given a choice now of playing Seeker, or Nighthawk (even at the same point level) I'd go with Nighthawk. He's more versitile, less goofy (head garb debate aside), and more plausible. Nighthawk is a Batman clone, but he's already started out in a different direction, which means you can take him anywhere with it.

:)

[TheEmerged]

RE: Nighthawk. Speaking for myself and no one else -- I just can't get passed the Birdie Baseball Cap. For some reason it takes away any chance I have of taking him seriously, my brain always mentally adds a beer can on each side and a tube into his mouth.

RE: Sapphire. I'm discovering an odd kind of love/hate with this character. I've called her the "new Seeker" a few times, but recently it's occured to me there's a better description -- Female Bulldozer. I know there's no actual manhating aspect of the writeup, but it suggests itself.

Witchcraft. Hate to say it, but from where I type she's a wannabe Solitaire. 'Course, I have to confess to being fond of Solitaire...

Ironclad. Of the 4 "new" Champions, he's the one that has grown on me. Interesting note, he isn't appearing much in the artwork.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit
Well, Quantum, while amusing in the 'Lucy Van Pelt' way, is just the sort of character that I wouldn't want in MY team if I were playing one: Pessemistic, violent, and bad for morale.

Sapphire may seem to lack depth, but the 'drag on a team' kind of depth I don't like.

Okay, I admit it. I like Ironclad better. I think Ironclad's better suited to his profession (Why didn't Obsidian have more leadership/diplomacy skills?) and has more built in plot hooks of the sort I'd like to use.
Don't get me wrong, they're both good, but each judged solely on their own merits... I like Ironclad a bit more.

Okay, on Solitaire, you may have got me. I want to like Witchcraft a LOT, and on her own, she's even good... but her only improvement on Soli is that Witchcraft is pure mystic, where as Solitaire was an odd hybrid of Mentalist/Mystic (no one could ever decide). Witchcraft should have either had a different origin story or personality to differentiate her from Solitaire. I'm hoping time will help her develop the latter.

Nighthawk started out as my least favorite, but I've really grown to like him. I like the swashbuckler type, but given a choice now of playing Seeker, or Nighthawk (even at the same point level) I'd go with Nighthawk. He's more versitile, less goofy (head garb debate aside), and more plausible. Nighthawk is a Batman clone, but he's already started out in a different direction, which means you can take him anywhere with it.

:) I always viewed Quantum as more severe than "Punisher style" problem character.

I can think of a number of plots I can run off of Obsidian that I can't run with Ironclad. It's the prince/diplomacy angle, even if Obsidian didn't spend a lot of points on it, that allows me to include an alien intrigue story-line much more fully that doesn't merely rely on a "militaristic edge." Ironclad plots are mostly about other gladiators. Obsidian plots can be about evil family members, rebellions at home, political assasination, polititical kidnapping, and just pure espionage.

Witchcraft just doesn't do anything for me.

I can't get past the goofy headgear for Nighthawk and his very generic background. Plus, I loved Seeker's list of contacts. His origin was awful but his interaction with the other team members was cool.

[Storn]

Originally posted by TheEmerged


[b]Ironclad. Of the 4 "new" Champions, he's the one that has grown on me. Interesting note, he isn't appearing much in the artwork.

I'm about to reveal a truth about 'bricks' in general in both comics and rpg art. And it is so pragmatic, that you slap your forehead (hopefully, gently).

Bricks are large and tend to be taller (and often wider) than there teammates. So, as visual design elements... they go in the background as you can overlap the smaller teammates in the foreground. Yet because of their height, width, the viewer can still recognize him.

But when it is specifically about Ironclad... I must admit I have a tough time drawing him. Greg's version is very lithe, a bit too much so for me. Someone that strong should look it UNLESS it is a specific and declared character trait ('She looks like a teenager but she can lift a tank!")The little bumbies on the head, the small nose (which is really tough to pull off if I.C. is small and in the background). I want him to look alien, yet also with some "humanity"!?!?! Somehow, those two features don't quite do it for me. The egyptian motif takes some thought when he is twisting in action. That is the long answer.

The short answer. He is tougher to draw than some of the others.


As for Nighthawk, I didn't care for the charcter till I painted him and drew him for the first time on the cover of Champs. Now I kinda like him. I think his gauntlets need a bit of re-design, they are kinda klunky... Eric Lofgren did a nice job in U.S.P.D with N.H. dodging a teke's attack. I think of the helmet in the beginning very much Ninja Science Gatchaman... now I actually think of it more like Seattle Seahawks... which is based on the tribes statues and art from that area (blanking on the tribe's name). I think it would be cool if there was a connection for N.H. to that kind of background (I'm not suggesting he is a Native American all of a sudden, that would be jarring... but perhaps he went to college in Seattle or Vancouver... hey? at least it is different...)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Storn
I'm about to reveal a truth about 'bricks' in general in both comics and rpg art. And it is so pragmatic, that you slap your forehead (hopefully, gently).

Bricks are large and tend to be taller (and often wider) than there teammates. So, as visual design elements... they go in the background as you can overlap the smaller teammates in the foreground. Yet because of their height, width, the viewer can still recognize him.

But when it is specifically about Ironclad... I must admit I have a tough time drawing him. Greg's version is very lithe, a bit too much so for me. Someone that strong should look it UNLESS it is a specific and declared character trait ('She looks like a teenager but she can lift a tank!")The little bumbies on the head, the small nose (which is really tough to pull off if I.C. is small and in the background). I want him to look alien, yet also with some "humanity"!?!?! Somehow, those two features don't quite do it for me. The egyptian motif takes some thought when he is twisting in action. That is the long answer.

The short answer. He is tougher to draw than some of the others.


As for Nighthawk, I didn't care for the charcter till I painted him and drew him for the first time on the cover of Champs. Now I kinda like him. I think his gauntlets need a bit of re-design, they are kinda klunky... Eric Lofgren did a nice job in U.S.P.D with N.H. dodging a teke's attack. I think of the helmet in the beginning very much Ninja Science Gatchaman... now I actually think of it more like Seattle Seahawks... which is based on the tribes statues and art from that area (blanking on the tribe's name). I think it would be cool if there was a connection for N.H. to that kind of background (I'm not suggesting he is a Native American all of a sudden, that would be jarring... but perhaps he went to college in Seattle or Vancouver... hey? at least it is different...) Destructor from Atlas Comics was different too. :)

I wouldn't say that necessarily makes it a good thing.

[Enforcer84]

I also think that the Guardians were more mysterious since we didn't really know what they were capable of until the comics came out.

BTW. Cybertooth, I also love the old art. I wish I still had all my old champions stuff. I kept selling RPG things at used book stores so I could buy frivolous stuff like Food back in college. Darn my eating habits!

Anyway, I have made a bit of progress designing characters for the art and examples in FRed, and the ol'BBB Watchers of the Dragon did a good job of getting the art from the first UMA and I want to translate them all to 5. and write up the art and example characters for my various hero universes.... I love to make characters, yes I do...

[austenandrews]

The old Champions were cool! You had Hercules and Black Widow with their lovers' arguements, plus Iceman and Angel, and there was that time they fought Godzilla on ... what? Official Hero NPC's? Oh. Never use'em, don't know nothin bout'em. Carry on.

-AA

[Agent X]

Originally posted by austenandrews
The old Champions were cool! You had Hercules and Black Widow with their lovers' arguements, plus Iceman and Angel, and there was that time they fought Godzilla on ... what? Official Hero NPC's? Oh. Never use'em, don't know nothin bout'em. Carry on.

-AA Remember when Hercules made Godzilla stumble. That was woderful. Hmmm, Godzilla is thirty stories tall. That's at least 10' for each level but I could swear I heard someone say 13' is common. Okay, so that's roughly 2 hexes for 13' so 2 time 30 = 60 hexes. So, Godzilla is going to have +75 Strength from Growth. He is also a reptile and appears like he is proportionately stronger than a human being, say a 35 or better strength, a minimum of 110 strength. Wow!

Hercules is mighty. He was able to "grab" Godzilla's leg and "throw" him back. That's impressive. He probably translates as being stronger than Grond. YET ANOTHER CHARACTER STRONGER THAN GROND! WOOHOO! Sorry, I'm bitter about the guys running around making it out like Grond is the strongest one there is.

[austenandrews]

I once GMed a short-run "B movie" game. My planned climax was a Godzilla adventure. I had found a big, inflatable 'Zilla that I calculated was very close to 1"=2m scale, so I was going to use him alongside our Cardboard Heroes. The game fizzled before I got that far, but I still think it was a wonderfully insane idea.

-AA

[Doctor Agenda]

The trend on this discussion seems to be that yes, we old timers ARE nostalgic about the old characters, whether 4th ed., 3rd ed., or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that. In a few years the new or revised characters may grow on us. DoJ made a decision to have a major revision, and since legal rights to old characters are involved we may never see official 5th ed writeups/updates on many of them. Unoffical writeups and updates on the other hand....

[Hermit]

Well, while I've mentioned this before, what the CU is like now almost smacks of a comic book line relaunch/clear up to me. Love them or hate them, those things erase certain old characters, and change others. I plan to run the "Secret Crisis" sometime where I bring back 4th Ed characters as part of the plot, then have the heroes end up seeing just how their reality got this way :)

Which means I'll be able to make a 5th Edition of Solitaire and the others now on totally different paths of fate.

[Doctor Agenda]

Hermit, I like that idea!

Hey, I just noticed I'm standard now. Hurray for me.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Storn
But when it is specifically about Ironclad... I must admit I have a tough time drawing him. Greg's version is very lithe, a bit too much so for me. Someone that strong should look it UNLESS it is a specific and declared character trait ('She looks like a teenager but she can lift a tank!")

THANK YOU! I thought I was the only one who was upset with that. He doesn't LOOK like a brick, darnit!

[Jeff T.]

My Champions would be:

New Millenium Quantum: Tough, militaristic black female. Also would be leader of the team. Female team leaders intrigue me.

New Millenium Defender: I believe the Team: Defender concept is much more interesting that the Tony Stark rip-off. He is a college kid that would grow into his role on the team.

Seeker: I've always liked Seeker. He grew especially well, to the powered up version in the original CU, to his 'World Class martial artist' version in Watchers of the Dragon. A swashbuckling martial artist is excellent. I've never understood the complaints about his 'origin'. Explain to me how it is more strange than 'radioactive spider' or 'last alien from dying planet'?

Obsidian: Combines the 'fish out of water' element with the 'Noblesse Oblige'. Rather unique character I think.

Witchcraft: A copy of Solitaire? Yep. However, I prefer her costume, the evil sister angle, and she doesn't have the annoying triple identity/actress crisis.


*Also, I realize that the characters were made primarily as generic examples. Fine. Except they are routinely mentioned as a paramount team in the new Champions Universe. The ACTUAL canon version of the team for the current CU universe should be 450-500 point characters in my opinion.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Starlord
THANK YOU! I thought I was the only one who was upset with that. He doesn't LOOK like a brick, darnit!

No criticism of the artistic talent of Greg Smith intended, but my personal preference in Ironclad illos to date is Pat Zircher's from the cover of Champions Universe: solid, feet wide planted, massive arm muscles swelling as he lifts that car over his head. I also like that the ridges on his forehead are larger and more sharply angled, converging to give him an intensely scowling expression. Much more intimidating.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Starlord
My Champions would be:

New Millenium Quantum: Tough, militaristic black female. Also would be leader of the team. Female team leaders intrigue me.

New Millenium Defender: I believe the Team: Defender concept is much more interesting that the Tony Stark rip-off. He is a college kid that would grow into his role on the team.

Seeker: I've always liked Seeker. He grew especially well, to the powered up version in the original CU, to his 'World Class martial artist' version in Watchers of the Dragon. A swashbuckling martial artist is excellent. I've never understood the complaints about his 'origin'. Explain to me how it is more strange than 'radioactive spider' or 'last alien from dying planet'?

Obsidian: Combines the 'fish out of water' element with the 'Noblesse Oblige'. Rather unique character I think.

Witchcraft: A copy of Solitaire? Yep. However, I prefer her costume, the evil sister angle, and she doesn't have the annoying triple identity/actress crisis.


*Also, I realize that the characters were made primarily as generic examples. Fine. Except they are routinely mentioned as a paramount team in the new Champions Universe. The ACTUAL canon version of the team for the current CU universe should be 450-500 point characters in my opinion.

I've always liked Seeker. Sure, it's Crocadile Dundee Meets Jackie Chan, but that's pleasantly off-the-wall - as opposed to the firmly, militantly on-the-wall 5E Champions.

Defender's lost that quirky urge to outthink instead of outfight the enemy. Sapphire doesn't have Quantum's abrasiveness, which was the best roleplaying hook possessed by either edition team's characters put together. But between the Widget, 4E Defender's quirks, Seeker's odd background, Jaguar's form conflicts, and Quantum's attitude, you have far more texture hands-down than you get with the bland, stereotypical 5E bunch.

You don't want a prominent-in-the-game hero team to leave the PC's utterly in the dust as a matter of course. PC's are there to shine. Also, it's enough for the prominent signature team to represent a standard of heroism and to be in a position to garner media attention. That at least and at 350 points the 5E Champions manage well enough.

[austenandrews]

I agree, Morningstar. One of the things that really put me off of '90's comics was the absurd overabundance of strongmen who looked like the Hulk with a shrunken head. (That, and -everyone- wore a scowl, except for the token guy with an enormous grin.)

Btw ... Chinese algebra?

-AA

[Storn]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Well... the thing is, steel-bodied bricks, to me, aren't supposed to be bulky.

The most I'd ever go would be like the build of a Bronze statue of Zeus or Herakles.

Steel is strong, yet compact. Stone is wide and thick and powerful.

Collossus, until he was drawn by the hated Jim Lee (HATE HATE HATE!) was sleek and agile, and his strength came from his actions, not the number of unneccessary cross-hatches on his arms. Cockrum, Anderson, Byrne, Smith, all drew him lean and long, and still tougher than Chinese Algebra and stronger than two-splashes of Brut.

Colossus, drawn by Paul Smith, was the most lithe. However, in my opinion, Greg's Ironclad is still smaller. Hips are really narrow and the head is normal size. Even Paul Smith's C was bigger shouldered, bigger hipped than the rest of his X-men. And his head was small for his body (that is how you suggest largeness). Yes, it is a matter of degrees, but I can tell you with a ton of authority, one millimeter difference in a line can change volumes on a picture.

but yes, I get your point, I like Smith's Colossus quite a bit (and his Doc Strange run even better). And Ironclad, going to that model would be fine with me. I'll keep that in mind if I ever get a chance to draw him again.

[Storn]

And let me state, I don't dislike Greg's drawing. I just can't get an easy handle on the character trying to live up to Greg's drawing. It has nothing to do with Greg's skill or ability. It has everything to do with my "interpertative" skills. And just the way my brain works with its visual problem solving pathways.

[Tech]

Originally posted by Cybertooth
I guess I'm just an old fart at heart. I really have no problems with the new characters. However, I much prefer the older characters, especially those that go way back to the beginning.

I've started playing Champions from the beginning. I've also collected everything from the beginning on. Unfortunately my 5th ed. collection has stalled due to a lack of funds, but I'm working on that. Also, I currently don't have a current campaign running right now, so I have no reason (yet) to get used to, or familiarized with the newer characters.

For me, the older characters had a certain charm to them. The rules were simple and they were simple. They were in essence blank slates that we tweaked to fill our needs. We "filled in the blanks" as we developed our campaigns, and in doing so they became an integral part of those campaigns.
The same goes for the villains. I mean, who didn't fight Ogre and Pulsar as their first adventure?

Sure, the older rules did not cover practically every concievable power. But, a lot of us were younger then and our characters and games were simpler. Rules were made on the fly, as were combat decisions, and new powers for those that didn't exist. We had more time to devote to the game. Now, we are older adults and a lot of simply don't have that kind of time to invest. For me, it was always about the game, not about having a perfectly created mathmatically correct character or villain.

Totally agreeing with you. I started with Champions 1st Edition, 1st Volume when it first came out. Making up rules on the moment was part of the fun. Let's not forget heroes with a mighty 9 ED because there wasn't any examples except in the back of the book that you could base your heroes on.


There was a reason Classic Enemies was so popular. Personally, I'd like to see all (and I mean all) the older characters created 5th edition style. I'd love Hero Games to put it out as a book. I would love to see Gargoyle, Icestar, Dove, Marksman, Rose, Goliath, and the others. I always wondered what that spider/human hybrid that fired a beam from his forehead in Champions II (???) was and what his character sheet looked like. I always wanted a name and stats for the villain on the cover of the original Champions and Enemies rulebook (although, I think there was a contest to name him, I never found out officially what it was--I always referred to him as Cyclopean. Heck, he was probably Dr. Destroyer).

Cybertooth, if you want to know what the freaky spider/human hybrid's stats were, I made my own up when I first got Champions II and he became a staple in my campaign for years. If interested, email me and I'll type them up for you! I'll even look up his origin (if I can find it) and give you the context of who I used him with. I think you'll find it very nice. :D

[Willpower]

There is really only one character in the new crew that I don't like. That is Ironclad. I think he just looks like a pansy. I mean what are those stupid little things on his head. They look to me like someone tried to rip off the Klingon look, and didn't do a good job. I preferred Obsidian, he was a cool brick. I also liked the guy from the NM team, though I can't remember his name. In fact, except for Team Defender I liked that guy best of the NM team. Of the originals there was two bricks they had Gargoyle, which I never got to know except for how he looked due to some internal problems with the company at the time, and Giant, who was pretty cool, but I preferred the others over him.

I really like the new team except for Ironclad. Sure I liked Solitaire too, and wished she made it into the new team, but Witchcraft is pretty cool also.

[Enforcer84]

I was so mind controlled by D&D when I got champions I tried to roll characteristics.

THEN

I realized the points and sold down all the characteristics I didn't want. Dex3, Int5, Spd 1....STR75 I was not intoe actually understanding the rules until about my 14th character....

My brother once made a character 100 points so he wouldn't have to have any disadvantages. The guy was almost passable too.

[Vondy]

My Ultimate Champions:

NM Quantum (leader wise)
NM Team Defender (loved it)
4E Obsidian (I prefer him to worf)
4E Solitaire (witchcraft is okay)
4E Jaguar (didn't like seeker, loathe nighthawk's hood)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
There's room in my heart for both the BBB Solitare and Witchcraft.

Unfortunately, it's only room in the middle of that hot-tub full of chocolate pudding. :D

Shame on you!

Got tickets? :)

[TheEmerged]

5th Edition Defender (C:NM did not exist), upgunned
5th Edition Ironclad, upgunned
Ultimate Mentalist Solitaire, with adjustments to reflect her "infiltrator" side.
The "Improved" Seeker (didn't actually get that book -- Ultimate Martial Artist I think)
5th Edition Sapphire's writeup, 4th Edition Quantum's personality/background -- upgunned (in particular, make the EB and Flash slots variable)
4th Edition/CU Jaguar, adjusted to 5th Edition and upgunned slightly.


And by "upgunned", I mean bring them into the 550-575 point range.

[Enforcer84]

Originally posted by Hermit
Shame on you!

Got tickets? :)

Or at least video confirmation?

[Lupus]

The absolute best thing 5e Champs did, in my opinion, is get rid of the embarrasingly Crocodile-Dundee-Australian characters. They were terrible. :) I live in Australia, and I very, very rarely meet anyone who talks like that. When I do, it's usually because they're making a joke. Heck, Crocodile Dundee was a huge joke, which it seems most people didn't quite get.

So, I'm glad to see Seeker gone. Well, actually, I'd perhaps have liked to have seen him updated and be a little less stupid. The old version matched old comics - it was impossible to have someone who was different without playing up that difference. Your German character has to say 'Unglaublich!' every other panel, and the Russians had to talk stupid and say 'Bozhe Moi!' The funny characters had to be really funny, and the serious characters ended up being funny because they were /so/ serious. In other words, there was no middle point.

The modern characters have a much finer granularity. They can be complex. Ironclad is serious, but is also a genuine human being, for instance. Personalities aren't defined by a handful of psych lims. Yes, the old champions were simple for a simple ruleset and a simple world (to paraphrase a previous post). The new characters are more complex, and not just talking about points. :) I like to see that. So I really do kinda like the new characters.

(Yes, the old characters were often fleshed out by players. But that's an individual thing, and can be done with ANY character, no matter how poor or two-dimensional. Doesn't mean the characters themselves were complex, just that the people fleshing them out were creative.)

That said, I really enjoyed Team Defender. It was a really cool quirk, as well as a useful example of what can be done with the points.

(Oh, as for updated versions of the old champions... didn't many of the Ultimate books do that? I remember a 500-point Solitaire in the Ultimate Mentalist, anyway, although I don't have my books handy to check.)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lupus
The absolute best thing 5e Champs did, in my opinion, is get rid of the embarrasingly Crocodile-Dundee-Australian characters. They were terrible. :) I live in Australia, and I very, very rarely meet anyone who talks like that. When I do, it's usually because they're making a joke. Heck, Crocodile Dundee was a huge joke, which it seems most people didn't quite get.

So, I'm glad to see Seeker gone. Well, actually, I'd perhaps have liked to have seen him updated and be a little less stupid. The old version matched old comics - it was impossible to have someone who was different without playing up that difference. Your German character has to say 'Unglaublich!' every other panel, and the Russians had to talk stupid and say 'Bozhe Moi!' The funny characters had to be really funny, and the serious characters ended up being funny because they were /so/ serious. In other words, there was no middle point.

The modern characters have a much finer granularity. They can be complex. Ironclad is serious, but is also a genuine human being, for instance. Personalities aren't defined by a handful of psych lims. Yes, the old champions were simple for a simple ruleset and a simple world (to paraphrase a previous post). The new characters are more complex, and not just talking about points. :) I like to see that. So I really do kinda like the new characters.

(Yes, the old characters were often fleshed out by players. But that's an individual thing, and can be done with ANY character, no matter how poor or two-dimensional. Doesn't mean the characters themselves were complex, just that the people fleshing them out were creative.)

That said, I really enjoyed Team Defender. It was a really cool quirk, as well as a useful example of what can be done with the points.

(Oh, as for updated versions of the old champions... didn't many of the Ultimate books do that? I remember a 500-point Solitaire in the Ultimate Mentalist, anyway, although I don't have my books handy to check.) I'm not seeing the depth in the modern characters that you are and I have been reading fiction for a while. I find these characters to have bought into recent trends just as much as older characters.

[Doctor Agenda]

New Millenium Quantum: Militaristic yes, but IMHO, not black. That was one of the things I didn't like about her. Why change her race? She looks like a blonde, tan, California beach body builder with a mad-on to me. Conceivably her race is ambiguous, but I prefer the 4th Ed Quantum who was drawn as what she was, no mistaking it. I also didn't care for her being replaced with a Latino in the 5th Ed. Did someone think the old Champions was too minority-heavy with BOTH a black woman and a hispanic man or did they not have the rights to those characters so had to replace instead of update? If the latter, why not make one of the other characters black? I don't expect the Champions to be the League of Affirmative Action Heroes, but in 4th Ed there was more than a token minority.

[James Gillen]

Let's see:
I really don't see why they had to change some of these characters around, especially in the cases of Solitaire and Obsidian.

Seeker: Hey, I liked "Crocodile Ninja."

Quantum: I also liked "Lucy van Pelt."

Obsidian/Ironclad: One of the cases where they didn't need to make a change if the new character was so close to the archetype that it wasn't worth the bother. (One of the things I didn't like about New Millenium, BTW.) Obsidian had that stoic/humorous atttitude I associate with J'onn J'onzz or T'ealc from StarGate. Ironclad is similar, but Obsidian is just more appealing visually; Ironclad seems an example of one of those Star Trek:Next Generation aliens that is basically an actor with squiggly-looking face makeup. And I can understand why Storn thinks he's hard to draw.

Solitaire/Witchcraft: Again, the archetype (good sorceress with low self-esteem) is very similar to the old version. But as someone else said, Witchcraft has an evil twin, which is always good. :)

Sapphire: I dunno, I kinda like the idea of Shakira as a superhero. :D

Nighthawk: Probably the best substitution of the lot, as the team needed a Grim Vigilante of the Night archetype, and neither Jaguar nor "Crocodile Ninja" were suited to it. Nighthawk is certainly a better skillmonster and martial artist than Jaguar's human ID, and he doesn't seem to get beaten up AS often as Jaguar. As for the "birdie baseball hat"- I dunno, maybe people have too many bad memories of Blue Falcon......

JG

[Hermit]

Anyone else find themselves wishing we had a bit of Fiction staring the 5th Ed champs so we could get to know them better? Except for maybe the Showdown with SAS, I don't think it's going to happen... but you never know.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
No... don't be suggesting this. I have stuff due September 1!!!!

Writing the Champions fic?

Oh man... :D
Too late, already suggested.

I find I can bear the difficulties of others with great fortitude :D

[Jeff T.]

The New Millenium Quantum was clearly black.

[GestaltBennie]

A good superhero team should have a healthy dose of dynamism and soap opera. I think if I were to do a new Champions team right now, it'd be:

- Defender
- Quantum NM (lieutenant)
- Solitaire
- Ironclad (whom everyone expects to act like former member Obsidian because they're both big alien bricks, and he's getting really tired of it)
- Nighthawk (every team needs an edgy type, and Nighthawk provides that)
- Sapphire (every group needs "The Kid", a Kitty Pryde type that the big boys can show the ropes, with a bit of tweaking, Sapphire fills the role)
- Kinetik
- Doc Silverback (why not?)

Seeker would be the former member who keeps coming back for a few adventures, then goes back to his own book. He'd also have a bit of rivalry with Nighthawk - people know that one of these days, they're gonna drop the gloves and have at it eventually, but not yet.

Obsidian would be the alien former member and current ally who occasionally guest stars in the book when they go cosmic. Jaguar would be another former member; since he was cured of his lycanthropy, he was mostly fogotten, but still maintains a low-key friendship with Quantum and is occasionally used as a contact by Nighthawk.

I might also make Cavalier a former member who had an explosive relationship with Defender while he was on the team, then quit in disgust. Similarly, I might have it so that Lady Blue once briefly reformed, joined the team, then backslid back into crime, providing a certain amount of angst for Defender. Bitter former members are fun.

Id also have had it that at one time, when Defender got seriously hurt, some kids replaced him and did the whole CNM "Team Defender" gimmick for awhile, and that the kid who was in the pilott's seat during that run is now on his way to becoming his own superhero.

It's all in the soap opera.

Scott Bennie

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Part of those magical Hermit powers. :mad:

Gosh, when you put it that way, with the mad face and all... I feel kinda bad....
but then it passes and I still like my idea :)

I mean, fiction, even fan fiction (not that sort of fan fiction mind you :) ) would be a great way to flesh them out.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
It's all in the soap opera.

Scott Bennie

Great ideas, Scott. I plan on ripping off... uhm, utlizing a few of those suggestions I think :)

[Hermit]

OOokaay, that was funny.

[misterdeath]

Morningstar Rules!

D

[TheEmerged]

Good one!

[Mutant for Hire]

When Hermit said 'flesh them out' he didn't mean that...

At least I hope he didn't...

Could have been worse. Could have been Obsidian. :eek:

[Enforcer84]

AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUGH its Butt sex man!

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
A good superhero team should have a healthy dose of dynamism and soap opera.
...Great stuff.

[Doctor Agenda]

On the Champions race thing, that idea for making Nighthawk or Defender a minority would be a cool twist, maybe if we got a better look at them there could be a suprise inside . :D

I like Kinetic, if they had actually put him in the Champions I wouldn't have opened my pie-hole on the subject.

I looked at NM Quantum closely and while she could certainly have dyed it blonde, it looks like wavy soft hair to me, not straightened. Plus she just doesn't look like she has African features. I'll take the 30% estimate on blonde dye-jobs for black women in the 90s as exaggeration for effect. Maybe someday the artist will grace us with a clarification, but it's not so important I can't be content to let it remain a mystery (except to Starlord, of course) until then.

[Lord Liaden]

Minor observation: many black people in North America have naturally straight hair.

I never thought that the NM Quantum was anything other than black with a hair-color preference, partly because her predecessor in the 4E Champions was black, and partly because her skin color on the cover is so obviously the dark brown tone universally used for black people in comics.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
RE: Nighthawk. Speaking for myself and no one else -- I just can't get passed the Birdie Baseball Cap. For some reason it takes away any chance I have of taking him seriously, my brain always mentally adds a beer can on each side and a tube into his mouth.

I love the costume of Nighthawk. A Batman-type.


Ironclad. Of the 4 "new" Champions, he's the one that has grown on me. Interesting note, he isn't appearing much in the artwork.

I don't like Ironclad. Defender is nice to see back, though. Soltaire was great. :D The other 4th Edition were o.k., except Obsidian. I really liked Obsidian.

I liked Rose from 3rd Edition. Hated Giant from third edition; who want's their powers to be taken away every battle? Giant had all his powers in an OAF. Hmmmmmm, if he was my rival I would spend lots of points in Martial Grab. LOL

Many other characters were good in the HERO supplements. Too many to mention here.

Generally, Hero Games did a good job with many of their villians and heros, I think, but I could think of a few that needed a redesign. Some just had too many wasted points.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Doctor Agenda
On the Champions race thing, that idea for making Nighthawk or Defender a minority would be a cool twist, maybe if we got a better look at them there could be a suprise inside . :D

I like Kinetic, if they had actually put him in the Champions I wouldn't have opened my pie-hole on the subject.

I looked at NM Quantum closely and while she could certainly have dyed it blonde, it looks like wavy soft hair to me, not straightened. Plus she just doesn't look like she has African features. I'll take the 30% estimate on blonde dye-jobs for black women in the 90s as exaggeration for effect. Maybe someday the artist will grace us with a clarification, but it's not so important I can't be content to let it remain a mystery (except to Starlord, of course) until then. I don't like switching ethnicities on established characters. It's jarring.

[Doctor Agenda]

Jarring is a good word for it. From other comments I can only conclude that the copies that were sent to my city must have been printed differently, because all I can make out on Quantum's skin is a light tan, nothing like the dark brown used (I hear universally) for black people in comics, especially if its so obvious. Definitely not a Luke Cage, Misty Knight, Bob Foster, or T'challa skin tone. I've been known to read a comic or two and am familiar with the commonly used coloring. Since my opinion on NM's Quantum was apparently based on a badly-colored batch of the product I withdraw it, since I don't think anyone could mistake what's on mine for dark brown.

I am aware of the exceptions to the rules...black people can have very light skin, naturally straight hair, eye colors besides brown. White people can have black kinky hair and dark tans or swarthy complexions. There is a lot of variation and a continuum between the various races. Many people are not easily recognizable as a member of a particular race. Thanks to everyone who took the trouble to inform me about these things, I can understand why someone might assume I don't know. The thing about comic book characters is they look the way they do on purpose. Unless the printer messes them up. :o

[Jeff T.]

Besides her obvious African-American appearance on the cover, I base my statement on one of my black friends commenting at the time that she was his favorite of the 'new' Champions.

His comment?

"She's a good role model. I think it's great that they make a strong-minded black woman the leader of the new team."

To me (and him) it's as obvious as the fact that Thor carries a hammer. However, she's a character in a superhero game. I certainly won't argue that any such character is always open to interpretation, not to mention they are just offered as examples and anything about their origin or appearance can freely be modified or changed.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Doctor Agenda
The thing about comic book characters is they look the way they do on purpose. Unless the printer messes them up. :o

Actually, this might not be far off. I seem to recall different looking covers for the NM rules. One WAS of a significantly lighter shade, I believe. Perhaps someone can clarify this??

[Doctor Agenda]

Thanks, Starlord, it certainly sounds like the cover art is the source of my confusion. I did run it by my girlfriend, who should know, and she thought Quantum was a white woman, or, and I quote: "light enough to pass". It was an honest mistake on my part, sorry to have led the thread so far off-track.

[Tasha]

Originally posted by Hermit
Anyone else find themselves wishing we had a bit of Fiction staring the 5th Ed champs so we could get to know them better? Except for maybe the Showdown with SAS, I don't think it's going to happen... but you never know.

Actually I suggest just this when the Champions universe was in the being thought of stage. IMHO the current characters feel cold. The CNM versions had more heart due to the fiction in all of the books. I especially liked the bios that were written in character. They really made the characters feel real to me. In CNM allies they took villians that I always thought of as lack luster and through the biographys made them living characters. I guess that shows that 1st person narritive is much more powerful than 3rd person narrative.

tasha :)

[Hermit]

Thanks Tasha, nice to have someone agree with me :)

I'd almost reccomend some short fiction in the Champion's Universe as part of the DH, but I don't think that's feasable. Unless it was very good, I don't think it would sell.

[Agent X]

CNM left me cold. 1st Person Narrative just isn't enough.

[Tasha]

Originally posted by Agent X
CNM left me cold. 1st Person Narrative just isn't enough.

The series as a whole really made me want to run it. It really brought me back into gaming after not doing it for 4 years after a messy game group breakup. I ran a game that brought together people who hadn't played any form of hero for that whole time. They loved the new setting so well they suprised me by demanding that I run it using Fuzion. We ended up bending Fuzion some so that we could build more complex characters. It was fun.

The book that made me fall in love with CNM was Alliances. That was the book that brought it all together for me. Villians that were just so much cardboard in 1-4 ed Hero were suddenly brought into 3 dimensions. I could understand their motivations, I could see how the characters thought.

You are right 1st person narrative isn't enough, there has to be good material there as well.

The funny thing about CNM is that it seems that Marvel has caught up to it with it's Untimate series. The whole Reinterpret all of the characters, Blow up something that is a fixture of the game world. Have many heroes and villains that you don't like be in the blast. If you need them to come back write a good backstory about how they escaped the disaster.

When I finally run again, I will probably use CNM. With the "official" Champions campaign city being Detroit, I just don't see being comfortable running a game in a place that I have no real context. Running in the Bay Area, gives me home field advantage. I understand how the Bay Area works.

I also enjoyed many of the characters in CNM. I kind of found Team Defender somewhat annoying, but still a real inventive concept. It was also jarring having him be such a novice after being used to him being competent in 4th ed. I liked Quantum from that book more as well she felt more 3D with a better background. BTW the Comics inside of CNM (1ed Hardbound limited ED) make it quite clear that she is African-American. She may be blonde, but her skin is dark.

Behemoth was a neat brick/metamorph. The kind of person who is always fighting their nature to do the right thing.

Solitare. Not a girl anymore, but a competent woman. And no silly widget kludgy focus excuse.

Seeker: now more gritty and not a punching bag. Looks really tough. What the 4th ed Seeker should have been from the start.