Entangle as improved grab

[Daeger]

I'm very new to the HERO system and a friend of mine is starting a sci-fi game. I'm thinking of playing a mutant of some sort with Extra Limbs, and I thought about getting Entangle. Trouble is, I can't figure out how to adapt it as sort of a 'melee grab'. It should probably only work in range of my reach, I found no limitation for that.

Does anyone have any recommendations?

[Hugh Neilson]

Why not just buy skill levels and/or bonus STR only to Grab? You should only need to use 2 hands to Grab a typical opponent, leaving the extra arms free.

[Daeger]

Why not just buy skill levels and/or bonus STR only to Grab? You should only need to use 2 hands to Grab a typical opponent, leaving the extra arms free.
I'm still learning the system so I don't know what's best, really. I would think a power would be better than a simple combat action that everyone can do, plus I was going to make this for his tails, not arms.

[Questar]

I'm still learning the system so I don't know what's best, really. I would think a power would be better than a simple combat action that everyone can do, plus I was going to make this for his tails, not arms.


It would seem to me that if you used your tail as an entangle, then when a character broke free of the entangle, he would also be breaking your tail. Now I suppose you could have some sort of special effect where it grew back right away, but in general, I think using limbs as an entangle is not the way to go.

Maybe with a character like Sandman it would work, where you are actually busting through his body to escape, but in most cases, a specialized grab would seem better to me.

[Daeger]

It would seem to me that if you used your tail as an entangle, then when a character broke free of the entangle, he would also be breaking your tail. Now I suppose you could have some sort of special effect where it grew back right away, but in general, I think using limbs as an entangle is not the way to go.

Maybe with a character like Sandman it would work, where you are actually busting through his body to escape, but in most cases, a specialized grab would seem better to me.
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking, which is why I was asking if anyone knew of an adaption. Guess not.

What would you recommend for a specialized grab then?

[Questar]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking, which is why I was asking if anyone knew of an adaption. Guess not.

What would you recommend for a specialized grab then?

Hard to answer without a better sense of what you want to do. Buying a martial grab gives you extra bonuses, and if you combine it with a martial crush, then you have a tail-grab that's harder to get free from and which can potentially squeeze for a good bit of extra damage.

If you are picturing a huge sweeping tail that is hard to avoid, then maybe adding a one-hex area effect advantage to your grab would give you something special.

If you describe exactly what you want to do, there are people on this forum who can instantly provide you with 3 or 4 (or more) different ways to buy it in HERO terms.

[Sean Waters]

I'd do it, as suggested, with extra limbs (5 points) and either a martial art or simply +10 STR to grapple (-1) at 0 END costing 7 points. You could use the STR to hold and squeeze, in effect.

The problem with this is that grabbing someone holds you too to an extent: your DCV drops too.

You could certainly use a 0 range entangle, but I think you would need to think carefully about the build to get just what you want.

[BoneDaddy]

I happen to have studied this very problem for the same reason - tentacled alien hero. An entangle has the advantage of not reducing your DCV, but it also costs a hellofalot more than Martial Grab.

Take some stretching, take some martial arts, and a few damages levels with that martial art. It will give you a much stronger grab than it would buy an entangle. Entangles break, while typically arms don't.

If he's a brick, see how much villain you can tote around with your casual strength, buy some PSL's for encumberance, something like that. There's ways around the DCV issue, and almost all of them are cheaper and more generally applicable than Entangle.

And get a little Japanese girl for a sidekick. It's funny.

[Daeger]

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll look at Martial Grab.

[Valerious]

You could definitely build this as an entangle. In fact, the Champions book specificly suggests it as a power for metamorphs.

They recommend taking the Cannot Form Barriers limitation, as well as Feedback, so that when your entangle is damaged, so are you.

Nothing about entangle requires that your tail be broken in order for someone to escape; it could just as easily be that they did enough damage to force you to release them.

Although entangle is indeed a viable option, I would consider the suggestion for extra STR limited to grabs. It would end up costing less, and wrapping them up with your tail would be an appropriate special effect.

[Daeger]

You could definitely build this as an entangle. In fact, the Champions book specificly suggests it as a power for metamorphs.
Oh, really? Well, I don't see a lot of stuff supporting it. I found the No Range limitation but there's no sort of limitation for having to remain in range after the initial entangle.

[Thia Halmades]

Couple notes. One, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the first rule of HERO: Reason From Effect. You pick what you want the power to do, and then model TO that, as opposed to picking a power and working backwards. You want a prehensile tail you can Entangle people with. No sweat.

Tail Grapple: Entangle (3d6, 3 DEF) (30 Active Points); Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), User Takes BODY Damage Entangle Takes, (-1/2), Must Follow Grab (-1/2), Requires a Skill Roll (Tail Tricks, -1/2) Total cost: 11 points.

Does that help? The disad "User Takes BODY" is a custom lim; -1/2 seemed reasonable, and then when the BODY is depelted, the Entangle falls, and there's no verbiage saying your PD/rPD wouldn't apply. So if you have 5 rPD, and I hit your Tail Entangle with a 4 BODY attack, it takes 1 (3 DEF) and you take 0 (5 rPD). Second, "must follow grab" made a lot of sense since that simulates the act of grabbing your target, although you can remove it if you like (remember: all powers work as written until modded) and finally, "Requires a Skill Roll" because I slap that on almost everything.

So yes. You can absolutely build it as a power if that's the route you want to take.

[Daeger]

Actually, a friend of mine loaned me Ultimate Metamorph and I found this:

Point Cost: 18. Grasping Limbs: For characters that have dozens or hundreds of limbs, grabbing and restraining their foes becomes a simple and effective combat tactic. Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF; Feedback (character takes all damage done to try to break victim free from Entangle; -1), No Range (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4).

That seems to cover most of the fields, but the rules still don't cover what happens when you move out of range of the entangle you made. Is the person dragged along with you, are you anchored, shouldn't it be a limitation?

[Sean Waters]

The other way I do tentacles a lot of the time is telekinesis. Worth thinking about.

[Daeger]

The other way I do tentacles a lot of the time is telekinesis. Worth thinking about.
Telekinesis faces the same problem I see with entangle, there's not enough limitations to define it..


Edit: This is completely irrelevant, but I just realized HERO makes a far better option for a Star Wars games than actual Star Wars games.

[Daeger]

Hmm, maybe not, actually.

30 Character Points is Telekinesis up to 20 Strength. Tack on No Range, Physical Manifestation, and Visible, which brings it down to 15 character points, which is pretty affordable.

Problem is though, it's still seperate from the character's actual strength, and in a futuristic setting, I don't think strength is too hard to help augment. Hm.

[Questar]

There is also the maxim that just because something CAN be done in Hero doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.

There is already a very straightforward way in the rules to do what you want with extra limbs and a grab. There are ways to modify the grab to make it more difficult to escape from or do more damage. Don't like the DCV penalty of a grab? You can buy levels to offset it. Is it expensive? Maybe there's a reason.

Yes, it is legal to buy an entangle with your tail as the focus. And adding the feedback limitation gets at simulating what you want to do. But if your PD always absorbs the feedback damage, then the limitation is worth no points.

If you did go with an entangle, it would be based on the special effect of a grab, and you would be carrying along the victim when you moved (or be anchored if the victim was too heavy or had the STR and leverage to resist). Is this a limitation? I can see it being an advantage. It has both beneficial and negative aspects, so it's probably a wash.

Since you have technically grabbed the victim, as GM I would rule that the DVC penalties of the grab applied anyway in this case. If your character sensed that the victim was about to break free, could he release the entangle and throw the victim across the room?

There are occasions when a concept cannot be built except by resorting to odd constructions (such as telekenesis w/ no range. That's really just STR).
But when there is a straightforward way to create a concept, I think it's usually the best way to go.

(But hey, I've done my share of tinkering with powers to get an effect I wanted more cheaply. It's done all the time in the source books. So you have to decide what works for you.):)

[Daeger]

Since you have technically grabbed the victim, as GM I would rule that the DVC penalties of the grab applied anyway in this case. If your character sensed that the victim was about to break free, could he release the entangle and throw the victim across the room?
But.. there's no reason to apply the DVC penalty, a twink of a player would simply make it not have to rely on his tails. You're essentially punishing concept if you do that.

Anyway, I don't like the idea of simply relying on regular grab because it offers no utility for extra limbs. I want something that simulates using them, not getting around a sort of penalty.

On a sidenote, I have a question. In the Extra Limbs it mentions adding in extra strength and limiting it to your extra limbs only. Does this extra strength count against the limit of '20' for a non superheroic game?

[Daeger]

Hmm.. okay, let's say I went with regular grab. I have 75 character points for this build, taking a psychological disadvantage (autophobic) gives me 20 more points. Distinctive Features would be another 15 or 20. Aside from a strength of 20, what other investments should I make? Is there a way to get past the limit of 20 in a non-superheroic game aside from equipment?

Edit:
Ultimate Metamorph mentions this..

Point Cost: 12. Hitting Lots Of Targets: +6 OCV with Sweep (assumes four manipulatory limbs; character should buy two Levels per limb after the first).

Maybe I could focus on doing sweep grabs? I could take this, stretching, et cetra..

[Sean Waters]

Sorry - got to ask - autophobic - is that fear of cars or fear of self?

[Daeger]

Sorry - got to ask - autophobic - is that fear of cars or fear of self?
Fear of being left alone, in this case.

[Sean Waters]

OK, job one is define what you actually do want to be able to do. The DCV penalty for grab is not because you can't use the limb it is because you have a large struggling object attached to you.

[Questar]

But.. there's no reason to apply the DVC penalty, a twink of a player would simply make it not have to rely on his tails. You're essentially punishing concept if you do that.

I can see how it might seem that way, but actually, I'm enforcing the concept. The concept as you described it IS a grab manuever but with an entangle. The bottom line is, is the victim grabbed or not? Could you carry the victim into another room where your friends are waiting to pound on him? Could you drop him off a cliff or into a vat of acid?

If you say, no, the victim is not grabbed in terms of game mechanics, only grabbed as a "special effect", then you could do none of the above things. I'm not sure how that could work out.

It's true that you could say your tail shot out a sticky glue which entangled the victim, and avoid any DCV penalty. But that's not your concept. As you described it, it is a grab, with all the advantages that a grab entails.

There are conceptual reasons why you might prefer an entangle rather than a grab ... say your tail had suction cups lining it,making it hard to pull off. But then essentially the victim is both grabbed and entangled as I see it.

Bottom line, if the victim is grabbed, then I would impose the grab DCV penalty.



Anyway, I don't like the idea of simply relying on regular grab because it offers no utility for extra limbs. I want something that simulates using them, not getting around a sort of penalty.


I don't see how an entangle works better for this than a grab. Whether you have grabbed or entangled with your tail, you still have the use of your other limbs available on your next phase.

[Daeger]

OK, job one is define what you actually do want to be able to do. The DCV penalty for grab is not because you can't use the limb it is because you have a large struggling object attached to you.

I'm definitely thinking I should focus on sweep attacks now. Either sweep grabs, sweep strikes, or both.

So i guess the answer to that is being able to fight groups of enemies in melee with effectiveness.

[Thia Halmades]

There are lots of ways to go about that - sorry, I thought I'd put No Range on that build, clearly I was mistaken. My bad. Meant to put it on there, but never got there. Oops. Where was I?

Yes, HERO is better at modeling anything than almost anything else. One of the raging arguments involves d20, and of course, you cannot "model" d20 - you can do much of what d20 does in HERO, but d20 is a game in and of itself, not to be confused with a SYSTEM, which is what HERO is.

You can build the grab thingy with TK, yes - that's the translation of Evard's Black Tentacles, actually. However, for your grab, you may simply want to stick with Entangle. Insofar as moving, I suggest adding the advantage Mobile if you intend to move, or, for more fun, you can treat it as a Grapple that's built as an Entangle with GM Fiat, and make the requisite Contested Strength roll to move your target around (as though throwing him).

Remember, the target is immobilized by Entangle - you can have a Mafioso with Entangle, OAF, A Big Enough Carpet, and cart people around like that.

[Shike019]

Edit: This is completely irrelevant, but I just realized HERO makes a far better option for a Star Wars games than actual Star Wars games.

You're not the first to notice that the HERO system is better at for a setting than a system published for that setting.

Cheers
:cheers:

Shike

[Daeger]

You're not the first to notice that the HERO system is better at for a setting than a system published for that setting.

Cheers
:cheers:

Shike
To be absolutely fair, Star Wars d6 and d20 are both horrible games.

[DocSamson]

I'm very new to the HERO system and a friend of mine is starting a sci-fi game. I'm thinking of playing a mutant of some sort with Extra Limbs, and I thought about getting Entangle. Trouble is, I can't figure out how to adapt it as sort of a 'melee grab'. It should probably only work in range of my reach, I found no limitation for that.

Does anyone have any recommendations?

My most recent character was a Grab Specialist (think along the lines of a Move Through Specialist but with Grab based powers). To simulate my "ultimate wrestling" concept, I went with a Clinging Damage Shield. Another "power" that may be useful to you is buying up your Causal STR to equal your normal STR.

These may seem like strange choices but in game I think they may play well with your multi-limb copncept. For example, to escape from you after a successful Grab, an opponent would first have to escape your Grab, and then break away from your Clinging. I think this is befitting of somone who is Grabbing you with four (or more) limbs. If someone tries to Grab you, you get to make an Casual STR roll immediatley (at full normal STR) and then another, as an action, if the first does not succeed. I think this also simulates well how difficult it would be grapple someone with more limbs than you.

I hope this at least gives you some ideas.

[Daeger]

Wow, Clinging Damage Shield is awesome. For 17 points, essentially almost anyone who tries to attack me in hand to hand combat can get snagged. I got to find the room for those points. With my 50 strength that should work rather well.

[TaxiMan]

Side question here - IDHMBIFOM so please correct my assertion. The Power Entangle with Feedback does damage to the character ignoring normal defenses, does it not? So if you got hit with a 12 Body attack on a 6 DEF Entangle with Feedback, you'd take 6 Body?

I never used the Power because this is how I thought it worked. If it works as described above, Feedback becomes a reasonable Limitation! Even sorta "free points" if it's Body-only, since normal defenses usually stop Body - and adding additional Def makes that almost never. Cool!

[Hugh Neilson]

Side question here - IDHMBIFOM so please correct my assertion. The Power Entangle with Feedback does damage to the character ignoring normal defenses, does it not? So if you got hit with a 12 Body attack on a 6 DEF Entangle with Feedback, you'd take 6 Body?

I never used the Power because this is how I thought it worked. If it works as described above, Feedback becomes a reasonable Limitation! Even sorta "free points" if it's Body-only, since normal defenses usually stop Body - and adding additional Def makes that almost never. Cool!

I'd treat it as Feedback for a force wall. The attack does its normal damage - STUN and BOD - reduced by the amount stopped by the Entangle. So if you've got a 6 BOD, 6 DEF entangle, and your opponent rolls 11 BOD and 38 STUN, then he reduced the entangle to 1 BOD.

You apply [11 - 12 =] 0 BOD and [38 - 12 =] 26 STUN against your own defenses.

[Trebuchet]

Is there a way to get past the limit of 20 in a non-superheroic game aside from equipment?Unless your GM has flatly forbidden any Characteristics above 20, you can go higher than 20 even in a Normal Characteristic Maxima game just by spending 2X points. In other words, a 20 STR costs 10 CP and making it a 25 would cost 20 (10 + (2 x 5) = 20) points. It's perfectly legal and a good way to make your character stand out from the "human norm."

It is also possible with optional rules from Ultimate Martial Artist to build a custom Grab maneuver which immobilizes additional pairs of limbs. An NPC hero in our campaign designed by Blackjack, Nightwolf, is a trained wrestler and bought this option, so now he can totally immobilize all four limbs of a person. It was built as a Custom Maneuver like this in Hero Designer 2:

5 Martial Grab, Hold, Pin: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Four Limbs, x STR for holding on

The holding STR would depend on the character's base STR. For 2 extra points I'd say that's a pretty good buy for what you have in mind. Then your character just needs to buy 5 more points in martial maneuvers, which may be just one more maneuver.