Detect Minds and Barriers

[Dust Raven]

My players are talkative lately! :D

Anyway, the recent discussion concerns an Enhanced Sense I've allowed: Detect Minds. I've allowed this sense as part of the Mental Group and as a a non-sense group sense. What we were discussing is what stops it. Sight is stopped by opaque barriers, sound is stopped by nearby loud noises or soundproofed barriers, smell is stopped by overpowering odors or airtight barriers, etc. What stops Detect Minds?

As a default, I have it stopped by physical barriers, but that doesn't make much sense (as my players are pointing out, and I agree with them). The problem is that several characters, heroes and villains, have Detect Minds as a Targeting Sense. I want to avoid the game breaking mental sniper, which is really the only reason I have it stopped by physical barriers. What other options do I have?

[Lord Liaden]

Mental Defense would seem to be one obvious option. Along with any other masking Powers which affect the Mental Sense group (Invisibility, Darkness, Images, Shape Shift). A Mental Defense Force Wall could conceivably block off a whole area.

Large crowds would be another possibility. Enough people generating psychic "background noise" could drown out any single mind. Along similar lines, an area or object where some extremely traumatic event has taken place may have a residual imprint from it that masks any other mind present.

You might also include certain materials which have traditional occult properties in folklore, such as silver or jade, to be effective deterrents.

[Sean Waters]

As a default - and you'll bear in mind Hero does not technically require something to stop the sense - I assume that whatever the sense detects stops the sense, so, as Lord Laiden suggests, a crowd would register as a mass of minds you could not see through - but you'd still know there were minds there. Of course if you happen to be in a deserted factory, you can zero the guy you are after no problemo.

However, my inclination is simply to say to the player - OK, you can detect minds: how does it work, and what can't you see through? Why should you do al the work.

Another way to limit it would be to say, for example, you can not use it with your eyes open OR you could just rule there are some minds that work differently and don't show up at all (I can see a whole load of interesting possibilities in tha last one, especially if you tell them there are limits but they don't know what they are yet :))

Also with any 'new' power I allow I always make it clear tot he player that if the power does turn out to be unbalancing, they have to give it up and spend the points elsewhere.

[OddHat]

I've allowed this. As per the concensus, you can't see through anything that thinks; crowds, individuals, animals or birds. Magical or psionic barriers should stop it as well.

And if it's not discriminatory, our sniper may not know who he's targetting.

[Ockham's Spoon]

If you want to build N-ray vision you have to define something that you can't see through, I think it only reasonable that the player do the same with an equivalent mental power. Or else make them buy Clairsentience.

If you want to keep this from being abusive, let them target the person from behind a wall, but unless they have an Indirect attack they can't actually hurt the person. Unless they make a Mind Scan roll. Isn't that what Mind Scan is for after all?

________________________________________________
Drained and blue
I bleed for you
You think its funny
But you're drowning in it too.
- Alice in Chains

[Kenn]

Force Wall, with the Blocks Sense adder/advantage (whichever it is), and Invisible Power Effects. The Sense being blocked is defined as Detect Minds. Invisible Power Efects is so the person having their Detect Minds ability blocked won't know that it's being blocked.

[Dust Raven]

Well, allowing Detect Minds is not exactly new, and it starting with an NPC Villain. When a player wanted it for their character (new player, haven't encountered this particular villain yet), I allowed it, but under the same conditions I had for the villain (no sniping because it couldn't sense through solid objects).

The idea of using other minds is a good one, and very logical. However, that doesn't really solve the problem. People with Mental Defense being harder to detect makes sense as well, but that causes problems of its own, not the least of which is a causality issue concerning being able to sense people who have Mental Defense in the past. Neither really solve the issue of of sniping. Are there additional options for stuff Detect Minds can't sense through? Increasing the Range Penalties specifically for Detect Minds maybe, making pure distance a "something" that's difficult to sense through?

[PhilFleischmann]

What stops Detect Minds?
Aluminum foil helmets, of course. I thought everybody knew that.

Seriously, you can just pick something. However you decide mental stuff works in your campaign world. Actually, aluminum is not a bad choice. You might let it be any metal that is an especially good conductor of electricity: aluminum, copper, silver, gold, maybe a few others. Or all metals, if you like.

Another possibility: Since normal sight can't see through physical objects, maybe Detect Minds (and other mental senses) can't see through energy: fire, electric fields, light sources, etc.

Yet another possibility: Detect Minds can't see through totally mindless things: television, bobbleheads, supermarket tabloids, Dane Cook, etc.

[Lucius]

Electromagnetic fields.

That way you can say that the wiring in any normal modern building creates enough interference that you can't percieve through the walls.

I'd also say even a thin layer of any metal can foil it.

I'll have to think about it.

Lucius Alexander

Detect Palindromedary

[John T]

Aluminum foil helmets, of course. I thought everybody knew that.No, no, no... those wire-frame pyramid hats!

Anyway, having been one of the players with whom the discussion originated, having mulled it over since then and seeing the discussion here:

I can definitely see distance being a factor, if we assume that brainwaves (presumably at least part of what the sense detects) become more diffuse with distance.

The primary emotional state of the target could introduce modifiers to the sense roll, from +3 or more for particularly strong emotions (rage, fear, etc) to -3 or less for calm, passive emotions (mild curiosity). Strong emotions might also partly mask other, more passive minds in the area. These emotions can't necessarily be detected, even with analyze on the sense. It's not, after all, Detect Emotions.

Crowds would certainly be a factor, perhaps in a way similar to, but more restricted than, Mind Scan.

Someone in a meditative state might be able to use their Meditation skill as a "stealth" roll against the sense.

The level and type of sentience could be a factor, with mostly negative modifiers based on how foreign a given mind is. It might be as difficult to detect the mind of a guppy as it would be to detect the mind of Cthulhu (not that you'd necessarily WANT to in either case).

Things that could be detected, depending on Discriminatory or Analyze: general mental "strength" (i.e. Intelligence, Ego, and to a lesser degree Presence), the general mental structure indicating the presence of Psychological Limitations, Berserks, etc (while not necessarily being specific), the presence of external influence (Mind Control, Mental Illusions).

That's about all that's crossed my mind since our discussion yesterday. I'll see if I can pester Mich into getting involved in the thread, since her character is the one that actually HAS the sense. :)

[John T]

I'd also say even a thin layer of any metal can foil it.Punning from the 40-yard line.:doi:

[Dust Raven]

So far I'm really liking the conductive metal and distance ideas. Oddly enough, there's a conductve metal in my campaign world that, when conducting electricity, provides Mental Defense (the metal is quintessium). So it's not a huge leap to say that quintessium, and other conductive metals/alloys, would block a Detect Minds and similiar mentalish detects, such as Detect Emotions, which another PC has.

Okay, so how does this sound? Large amounts of conductive metal worn around the head (something more than gold earrings, a foil hat or even a gold crown would work) conceal an individual from Detect Minds (and would need to be bought as a Power, but it's cheap because Detect Minds is not by default Targeting). Detect Minds cannot sense past large amounts of conductive metals. Simple wiring in your average building won't stop it, but an entire wall of wiring will, or a nearly solid wall with a lot of metal in it. Strong electromatnetic fields will block it as well, so standing near that transformer will hide you, and you can seem to fall of the face of the Earth mentally if you wander too close to a "high voltage" area.

In addition, Range Penalties start at 2" instead of 4".

Will that work?

[John T]

So far I'm really liking the conductive metal and distance ideas. Oddly enough, there's a conductve metal in my campaign world that, when conducting electricity, provides Mental Defense (the metal is quintessium). So it's not a huge leap to say that quintessium, and other conductive metals/alloys, would block a Detect Minds and similiar mentalish detects, such as Detect Emotions, which another PC has.

Okay, so how does this sound? Large amounts of conductive metal worn around the head (something more than gold earrings, a foil hat or even a gold crown would work) conceal an individual from Detect Minds (and would need to be bought as a Power, but it's cheap because Detect Minds is not by default Targeting). Detect Minds cannot sense past large amounts of conductive metals. Simple wiring in your average building won't stop it, but an entire wall of wiring will, or a nearly solid wall with a lot of metal in it. Strong electromatnetic fields will block it as well, so standing near that transformer will hide you, and you can seem to fall of the face of the Earth mentally if you wander too close to a "high voltage" area.

In addition, Range Penalties start at 2" instead of 4".

Will that work?Inasmuch as mental activity is electrochemical in nature, absolutely.

Well, either that or chartreuse spandex on fat people - that certainly stops MY brainwaves. :)

[OddHat]

So far I'm really liking the conductive metal and distance ideas. Oddly enough, there's a conductve metal in my campaign world that, when conducting electricity, provides Mental Defense (the metal is quintessium). So it's not a huge leap to say that quintessium, and other conductive metals/alloys, would block a Detect Minds and similiar mentalish detects, such as Detect Emotions, which another PC has.

Okay, so how does this sound? Large amounts of conductive metal worn around the head (something more than gold earrings, a foil hat or even a gold crown would work) conceal an individual from Detect Minds (and would need to be bought as a Power, but it's cheap because Detect Minds is not by default Targeting). Detect Minds cannot sense past large amounts of conductive metals. Simple wiring in your average building won't stop it, but an entire wall of wiring will, or a nearly solid wall with a lot of metal in it. Strong electromatnetic fields will block it as well, so standing near that transformer will hide you, and you can seem to fall of the face of the Earth mentally if you wander too close to a "high voltage" area.

In addition, Range Penalties start at 2" instead of 4".

Will that work?


I'd be careful about nerfing the sense too far in the other direction. I wouldn't increase Range Penalties unless you're giving some points back for it, and if you're making the sense that sensitive to electrical wiring and equipment then it's going to be worthless in most ordinary office buildings, let alone villain bases. Your metal hats mean that every agent can run around invisible to this sense. At that point, you might as well just tell your players "No".

If you can only sense the mind of someone standing unprotected right in front of you, it's not worth any points.

As things stand, the sense is not Targetting and, unless I've missed something, not Discriminatory. Mental attacks made using it, if permitted at all, would be targetting using a non-targetting sense and so at 1/2 ECV, and you wouldn't know who you were shooting at. Make areas with a lot of electrical equipment "dark" from the point of view of someone with the sense (-4 to per rolls) and solid metal walls impossible to see through and you've done all you really need to keep the power in check.

YMMV.

[Sean Waters]

Well, allowing Detect Minds is not exactly new, and it starting with an NPC Villain. When a player wanted it for their character (new player, haven't encountered this particular villain yet), I allowed it, but under the same conditions I had for the villain (no sniping because it couldn't sense through solid objects).

The idea of using other minds is a good one, and very logical. However, that doesn't really solve the problem. People with Mental Defense being harder to detect makes sense as well, but that causes problems of its own, not the least of which is a causality issue concerning being able to sense people who have Mental Defense in the past. Neither really solve the issue of of sniping. Are there additional options for stuff Detect Minds can't sense through? Increasing the Range Penalties specifically for Detect Minds maybe, making pure distance a "something" that's difficult to sense through?

Well you could solve the sniping problem by simply not allowing targetting or a sim-sense to a targetting grroup.

To be honest I would not worry too much about sniping: it is not particularly heroic and if the player wants that kind of power, unless they are using an attack that can pass through intervening obstacled, they still need line of sight.

[Sean Waters]

Also snipers have a problem in a super-world: they are likely to be nowhere near the rest of the team, and backup, if someone does detect them and teleports over there :)

[OddHat]

Also snipers have a problem in a super-world: they are likely to be nowhere near the rest of the team, and backup, if someone does detect them and teleports over there :)

Yup. As the GM you always have complete control of the battlefield. You can always kill off any character at any time for any reason; a little thing like having the sniping mentalist just happen to hide in the room also used for Sexually Crazed Elephant Storage is nothing. Or the floor drops away (watch out for that huge vat of acid, don't know why we put that thing there), or a troop of guards passes through the room, or a stray killing attack smashes through the wall and into the mentalist, or...

Really, a lone sniper is a pain buffet just waiting to open.

[Dust Raven]

Well, either that or chartreuse spandex on fat people - that certainly stops MY brainwaves. :)

And you've just stopped mine. :ugly:

:help:

[Karmakaze]

Don't Senses have a range limitation anyway?

I've done the Detect Minds as well (Discriminatory and Targeting, but not Analyze, so the mentalist could say "there are three men and two women in there" and determine general mental state). We did allow it to pass through walls, because her primary uses for it were (a) search and rescue ("there's still someone trapped in the basement!") and (b) abush detection ("should an abandoned warehouse with the lights out have twenty people inside?").

The mental sniper being unbalanced didn't come up, although that may have been partially because of Delusion's personality. With the SFX I was using though, I could absolutely see a restriction along the lines of "the more people there are, the less detail can be discerned" with Targeting as one of the first details to go.

[Dust Raven]

I'd be careful about nerfing the sense too far in the other direction. I wouldn't increase Range Penalties unless you're giving some points back for it, and if you're making the sense that sensitive to electrical wiring and equipment then it's going to be worthless in most ordinary office buildings, let alone villain bases. Your metal hats mean that every agent can run around invisible to this sense. At that point, you might as well just tell your players "No".

If you can only sense the mind of someone standing unprotected right in front of you, it's not worth any points.

As things stand, the sense is not Targetting and, unless I've missed something, not Discriminatory. Mental attacks made using it, if permitted at all, would be targetting using a non-targetting sense and so at 1/2 ECV, and you wouldn't know who you were shooting at. Make areas with a lot of electrical equipment "dark" from the point of view of someone with the sense (-4 to per rolls) and solid metal walls impossible to see through and you've done all you really need to keep the power in check.

YMMV.
As I stated, if someone wants to be invisible to Detect Minds by wearing a metal helmet, they need to buy Invisibility. Nothing nerfed there. As for wiring and other metals, there's simply not enough of that present in the campaign to offer suitable barriers; at least to compare with senses like Sight or Smell. The primary 'barrier' would be distance, which the increased RMod simulates. If that's too much of a penalty, I'm open to suggestions for other alternatives.


Well you could solve the sniping problem by simply not allowing targetting or a sim-sense to a targetting grroup.

To be honest I would not worry too much about sniping: it is not particularly heroic and if the player wants that kind of power, unless they are using an attack that can pass through intervening obstacled, they still need line of sight.
I've already allowed Targeting. Two of the villains has it, and one PC. Other characters have it without Targeting however. As for heroism, I'm more worried about the two villains being snipers, creating a situation where the heroes become victims.

[OddHat]

The primary 'barrier' would be distance, which the increased RMod simulates. If that's too much of a penalty, I'm open to suggestions for other alternatives.

I'd go for "dark" and "noisy" conditions, based off of sight and hearing PER roll penalties. Make a computer room or a large crowd "noisy" to the sense, with a -2 to -6 to the PER roll. Add on regular range penalties, and you'll get a smoother curve of utility, closer to other senses.

[Sean Waters]

As I stated, if someone wants to be invisible to Detect Minds by wearing a metal helmet, they need to buy Invisibility. Nothing nerfed there. As for wiring and other metals, there's simply not enough of that present in the campaign to offer suitable barriers; at least to compare with senses like Sight or Smell. The primary 'barrier' would be distance, which the increased RMod simulates. If that's too much of a penalty, I'm open to suggestions for other alternatives.


I've already allowed Targeting. Two of the villains has it, and one PC. Other characters have it without Targeting however. As for heroism, I'm more worried about the two villains being snipers, creating a situation where the heroes become victims.

Well, two things occur:

1. If PCs have it then the villains sniping will be less of a problem because they won't be effectviely invisible.

2. Assuming you are the GM, PCs getting sniped is only going to come up if it is dramatically appropriate to do so. I mean, sniping is perfectly possible whether you have mental powers or not - a properly silenced weapon with a good telescopic sight and you can pick off the PCs whenever you want - but you don't.

[PhilFleischmann]

The primary emotional state of the target could introduce modifiers to the sense roll, from +3 or more for particularly strong emotions (rage, fear, etc) to -3 or less for calm, passive emotions (mild curiosity). Strong emotions might also partly mask other, more passive minds in the area. These emotions can't necessarily be detected, even with analyze on the sense. It's not, after all, Detect Emotions.
...
Someone in a meditative state might be able to use their Meditation skill as a "stealth" roll against the sense.
Yes, that's another good possibility: the state of the mind being detected. And it doesn't have to be emotionally based only. It could be that an active mind (someone thinking very hard) is easy to detect, while an inactive mind (someone sleeping or watching TV or just vegging out) would be harder to detect. And yes, a character could consciously choose to let his mind go "blank" in order to try to avoid detection.

"Clear your mind of feelings. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor."

Another thought: depending on the type of campaign and how the power works, the presense of nearby AI's might also interfere with mind detection. Or perhaps even just ordinary computers. The extra thought processes going on (even though they're artificial) may create extra background noise that disrupts the detect. This could help to hide the arch-villian while he's in his lab with his AI doomsday machine.

[Sean Waters]

You might even want to introduce a mental stealth skill - the ability to think background thoughts that do not make you show up on the detect minds sense unless you are specifically being 'looked at'

[Dust Raven]

You might even want to introduce a mental stealth skill - the ability to think background thoughts that do not make you show up on the detect minds sense unless you are specifically being 'looked at'
I've already introduced it. I'm using the Veil, Cloak and... damn, I forgot the name of the other one... anyway, it's the three mental Skills from the Ultimate Mentalist 4th Edition. They are mental versions of Concealment, Disguise and Stealth.

[schir1964]

One alternative is to define that all living things act as an inhibitor to mental powers. Then you could allow for additional penalties based on the number/thickness of living things that someone is trying to use a mental power through. Perhaps the living things are a distraction since they need to be scanned and ignored.

This would mean it would be easier to pick a single mind out in an empty skyrise building than in a Swamp/Jungle/Forest of similar area.

Just An Idea

- Christoopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

One alternative is to define that all living things act as an inhibitor to mental powers. Then you could allow for additional penalties based on the number/thickness of living things that someone is trying to use a mental power through. Perhaps the living things are a distraction since they need to be scanned and ignored.

This would mean it would be easier to pick a single mind out in an empty skyrise building than in a Swamp/Jungle/Forest of similar area.

Just An Idea

- Christoopher Mullins
That's a pretty good idea! I'm not sure if I'll go with it, but I like it. Thanks!

[gojira]

Well, I can see the discussion is pretty far advanced. I'll add my 2 shekels anyway for the heck of it.


Dense metal, at least 1/8 inch thick, should stop mental powers. Other thick, dense material like solid stone one foot (about 30 cm) thick should also block mental powers. Rammed earth provides some cover, but doesn't completely stop mental senses until their maximum range is reached. Water provides full defense too, after about 20 ft of water (all those secret under water bases just got a whole lot more useful...). An underground water table should work the same way, mental powers are stopped after about 20 ft.

This means most heavily armored vehicles provide cover, and most bunkers do also, unless the victim is visible through a hatch or a loophole. Cars, aircraft and light military vehicles normally do not.

Most buildings don't provide full mental protection, although they may introduce some negative modifiers. Heavy stone construction may provide complete cover in some buildings (castles, traditional stone buildings, specially constructed government buildings, etc.). Most modern sky scrapers are made with metal girders and floor trusses, but the rest of the building is sealed with 1/4 inch gypsum wall board which probably wouldn't stop a be-be gun, let alone a skilled mentalist. The outside of a modern sky scraper is largely glass, which won't stop a powerful mentalist one wit.

Any defense with "BOECV" should provide defense at 1 pip equal to 1 pip of mental defense. (So Armor, BOECV, 15 DEF should be as good as 15 pts of Mental Defense).

A psionic static generator should provide defense in it's area of operation. This could be a trained psi providing cover, an enhanced animal or organic matter trained to provide defense, or an electronic device that provides the same function.

Mental Defense does of course. ;) I like the idea of silver and jade and maybe a few other metals providing defense. I think any metal helmet that provides mental defense should be more substantial than tin-foil; think Magneto's helmet.

EMP hardening, and any hardening against high energy rays (X-rays, alpha rays, beta rays, gamma rays, cosmic rays, etc.) should at least interfere with mental powers, if not stop them completely, imho. Very intense radiation should also stop mental powers, but I mean VERY intense. Background radiation that takes a month to kill someone (Chernobyl disaster) should have little if any effect. Electro-magnetic fields should not provide complete cover from mental powers unless they are very intense (large transmission towers, power sources for crazy world-dominating experiments, etc.).

Magic that provides mental defense or other forms of sense protection should be allowed to stop mental powers too. Normally this means the magic should have Mental Defense, but the GM should allow other defenses based on SFX. A powerful spell that stops all scrying should probably render the user immune to mental detection also, for example.

Lots of bodies shouldn't by default make it any harder to find someone than if you were there, present and trying to pick them out of the crowd by eye. A very skilled mentalist or a very perceptive observer could do it.


Ok, that's about it! Good luck!

[Ganesh]

My players are talkative lately! :D

Anyway, the recent discussion concerns an Enhanced Sense I've allowed: Detect Minds. I've allowed this sense as part of the Mental Group and as a a non-sense group sense. What we were discussing is what stops it. Sight is stopped by opaque barriers, sound is stopped by nearby loud noises or soundproofed barriers, smell is stopped by overpowering odors or airtight barriers, etc. What stops Detect Minds?

As a default, I have it stopped by physical barriers, but that doesn't make much sense (as my players are pointing out, and I agree with them). The problem is that several characters, heroes and villains, have Detect Minds as a Targeting Sense. I want to avoid the game breaking mental sniper, which is really the only reason I have it stopped by physical barriers. What other options do I have?

A Dolphin Noise Generator. It's a dolphin bran in a box, generates constant nonsensical mental noise, really screws with telepaths.

But more seriously, anything with a mind or with mental def would probably block it. Depending on how far you take this, swarms of insects or even groves of plants could act like fog or block this sense.

Depending on how it works, sources of strong emotion (including party members) could make it hard to "see" minds.

Or, if you're detecting neuroelectrical activity, current and ferromagnetic metals would block.

SFX not only adds a lot of flavor to generic powers like "detect - Minds," but provides interesting answers to what messes with them.

[Ganesh]

oh, for additional examples: in Julian May's Intervention and Pleocene Exile books, light interpheres with mental senses (not much, just enough that scrying a night is preferable), and water requires special techniques to scry through or around, so it's blocked by rainstorms and rivers. This gives a sort of pseudo-witchery feeling to the Farsensing power.

[Sean Waters]

Can I suggest that you say that, whilst it does not stop mental powers, you define some variable condition that has an effect on range modifiers.

So, for instance, you could pick humidity, or magnetic flux, or even solar radiation. When the levels are high, instead of normal range mods the attenuaion is far sharper, maybe as little as -1/1".

This means that the GM, at their absolute discretion, can decide when the power is useful or not, without having to suddenly place apporopriate barriers. That should be enough to stop players relying on it all the time and explain why villains are not always in a position to act as mental snipers.

On the mental snipers point, mind scan allows this anyway - you can't avoid it - it is just that a mental sense is a lot cheaper (I assume) and more effective - it is not avoidable bu the mentally skilled or strong.

Personally I would consider the existence of mind scan a strong argument against allowing a cheaper sense to function as a mental targetting sense.