Laziness

[Monolith]

I just want to address a point that Rod accused me of in the chat tonight. My problem with Hero Designer is not that I am too lazy to change every single skill in the template which is required to make a Terran Empire character. My problem with Hero Designer is that it should be a character creation system for the entire HERO System product line, not just for Champions. I should be able to open up Hero Designer and make a Star Hero or Fantasy Hero (when the book is sold) character with the same amount of efforlessness that I can make a Champions character. At this time that is not possible.

Now I could see where there would be a disparity in the software if I wanted to make an "Aquatic Knights" character (a genre where everyone lives in the oceans and are sea creatures). It would make perfect sense that the software would require tweaking to create a "custom" genre, but it should not take hours of tweaking to make it support an "official" genre (and by official I mean one in which DOJ is attempting to make money).

I am not lazy. I spend several hours a week doing Hero related tasks, both for myself and for DOJ. I just happen to think that the software that is supposed to make my gaming experience easier should do so; at least when I am doing something with an "official" game.

Hopefully 2.0 will correct this disparity. But it does not make me any less disappointed that 1.0 does not.

[Simon]

It has nothing to do with Champions or any other supplement, Mono and I really wish you'd see this.

I created HD from FREd. Period. The Skills, Modifiers, Powers, etc. that are listed in HD have the definitions and names that they are given in FREd.

At the rate at which supplements are coming out, it is not feasible to have an "official release" of HD for every new book. Nor is it necessary.

You (or anybody else) is perfectly capable of adjusting one of the templates to create a "Star Hero" template or a "Champions" template, or what have you. Once you do this, you can easily share your work with the world.

It's not hard.

Or you can make a Prefab if you're not comfortable editiing the template files.

I'm really not sure why you're making such a big deal over this, as it's really a trivial issue. Make your prefab and have done with it.

If there are new rules that need to be incorporated (like Charges clarifications from TUV), then I try to work them in as they come up. No new rules will be worked into v1 at this point....it was frozen a month ago....however, I will endeavor to work any new rules that come up in FH (or other supplements) into v2 as soon as possible.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by dsimon
It has nothing to do with Champions or any other supplement, Mono and I really wish you'd see this.
I do see that Dan. What you are not seeing though is that there is no such game being played called HERO System. People are playing Champions, and people are playing Star Hero, and people are playing Fantasy Hero, etc. No one is playing HERO System. People are playing genres, not a game system.

Either way, I will let this drop. I just wanted to get my point across about the laziness. We users are not lazy. We just expect convenience from a convenience product.

[Killer Shrike]

Personally, I agree with Monolith that all rules additions/expansions that appear in the supplements should be incorporated into the HD Templates at some point. It does make the app more convenient.

I can totally understand where he is coming from on this. Fortunately for me, to date all my 5th Edition Play has been Champions/Supers. But come this fall when I want to play Fantasy HERO its really going to bum me out if the options/rules expansions forwarded in FH are not included in HD.

If it becomes too much of a hassle Ill just switch back to Hero Creator for Fantasy HERO (Ive also got a ton of FH material already in HC from bygone years, so there is that to consider as well).

If HD supports FH, Ill bite the bullet and port old material forward as necessary and use HD for all new material.

Im a huge supporter of HD, but Ill use the tool that is most convenient and can get the job done, not the one that is most "correct" but requires me to waste time on techie stuff rather than character creation and campaign management.

And to be quite honest, in a larger sense, if neither HD or HC will do what I want then Ill write my own fast and dirty app and use that; Ive done it before afterall. I learned to program so I could do gaming crap, back in the days before there were decent character creation softwares and other utilities available; it wouldnt kill me to get back to my roots ;)

[Simon]

I really don't know how I can make this any clearer:

<B>RULE EXPANSIONS WILL BE INCLUDED IN HD UPDATES</b>.

What Mono is talking about are the "new" Skills, and other abilities. Generally, just renamed Skills, not new ones. These are simply a matter of creating a prefab if you don't want to constantly be typing in the name of the Skill.

Or just buy the character pack.

Any actual rules changes/additions/expansions will be incorporated into the current version of HD.

Again, a prime example of this is the change/expansion that was made to the rules for Charges as a result of the statement made in TUV.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Monolith
I do see that Dan. What you are not seeing though is that there is no such game being played called HERO System. People are playing Champions, and people are playing Star Hero, and people are playing Fantasy Hero, etc. No one is playing HERO System. People are playing genres, not a game system.

Either way, I will let this drop. I just wanted to get my point across about the laziness. We users are not lazy. We just expect convenience from a convenience product.
That is a load of crap.

Everyone is playing Hero System. Champions is Hero System. Star Hero is Hero System. FH is Hero System.

The rules of the system. The rules of the <i>Hero System</i> remain unchanged. Star Hero follows the same rules that Champions does, which are the same rules that Fantasy Hero follows.

When there <i>are</i> rules changes or rules additions, I work them into HD as quickly as I am able. Thankfully, these are very few and far between.

[Heroman]

A quick question, Dan, related to this topic. I for one have no problem with HD only persuing material in the core book + new rules which are developed over the course of the Hero system expansion into genre and 'ultimate' books.

My question is on your stance of "Once you do this, you can easily share your work with the world.". Is this true? I know that the material which has been produced so far is done for profit (in that the download costs $$). If I were to type in all the stuff from SH, for example (all packages, sample items, etc all), will HG allow me to submit it to them and have them share it for free, or would there be more of a conflict of interest/legal issue since all the material is in a copyrighted book?

[Simon]

Originally posted by Heroman
A quick question, Dan, related to this topic. I for one have no problem with HD only persuing material in the core book + new rules which are developed over the course of the Hero system expansion into genre and 'ultimate' books.

My question is on your stance of "Once you do this, you can easily share your work with the world.". Is this true? I know that the material which has been produced so far is done for profit (in that the download costs $$). If I were to type in all the stuff from SH, for example (all packages, sample items, etc all), will HG allow me to submit it to them and have them share it for free, or would there be more of a conflict of interest/legal issue since all the material is in a copyrighted book?
That's something that you'll have to take up with Steve.

I believe that it will depend on the extent of your work.

If, for example, you simply enter in any new/different Skill/Perk/Talent/Power names and save the result as a Prefab, I doubt that he'd have a problem with you sharing it (or even with HG posting it to the Free Stuff pages).

If you put in every ability in USPD, however, I suspect that he'd have a bit of an issue with posting/sharing it, as that is (more or less) the contents of the book.

One of the things that I feel folks will truly enjoy in v2 is the various "repositories" that I will be embedding in the app...these repositories will allow you to easily browse through custom Powers, Skills, Perks, etc and insert them into characters that you are working on (or upload your own into the repository).

[Talon]

Here's what I see as the problem.

Most of the stuff I believe Monolith is talking about is not really prefab material, it's character template material. The Weaponsmith group list should be different; the language chart should be different; there should be new Advantages and Limitations; etc.

It's possible to edit the character templates to do this...but because the templates don't inherit, it means you have to edit /all/ of them (or all of the ones you intend to use with those rule changes). If Dan changes the template, you have to download it and re-apply your changes. If you want to include changes from two different supplements, someone has to make a custom template or you have to combine the two yourself. Theoretically, someone could add all this stuff and send it to Dan to be included in the official templates, but I don't think adding all the different supplements at once would be practical.

I completely understand why v1 didn't support this -- you have to draw the line somewhere when adding features, and Dan's always been clear that this was a v2 thing at best. I'm not thrilled about v1 not having it, but I can live with it, given the understanding that Dan has been working to add it. Unfortunately, it seems to irk Monolith a little bit more.

[Rigel]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
I'm not thrilled about v1 not having it, but I can live with it, given the understanding that Dan has been working to add it. Unfortunately, it seems to irk Monolith a little bit more.

He should be irked and I am, too. I would be very irked if the artwork and cover of SH and TE convinced me to buy FREd and then buy HD. When I try to use HD to design my character, I find that the Systems Operation, Weapon Familiarity, and Transport Familiarity skills were expanded (or changed) in SH and making HD represent these changes is NOT TRIVIAL. Regardless of what Dan says, editing the XML template files is not easy for novice users. I hope v2 will make this easier since I would only have to edit one template and then let those changes inherit down. Dan, I think it would be great if v2 would have a GUI interface to edit these templates. Editting an XML file with notepad is intimidating to many, even if the process were well-documented.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Rigel
When I try to use HD to design my character, I find that the Systems Operation, Weapon Familiarity, and Transport Familiarity skills were expanded (or changed) in SH and making HD represent these changes is NOT TRIVIAL.
It took me about 8 hours over the last 3 days but I have the coding done for the new Computer Programming, Gambling, Electronics, Languages, and Systems Operation skills. I have no idea how I am planning on handling the new TF and WF skills yet (those two sections are hard to look at!). I will also be working on the new Perks and Talents soon.

If you drop me a email I will send you the coding for what I have done. You will need to replace it in a character, vehicle, automation, and computer template but it does work for TE.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Rigel
He should be irked and I am, too. I would be very irked if the artwork and cover of SH and TE convinced me to buy FREd and then buy HD. When I try to use HD to design my character, I find that the Systems Operation, Weapon Familiarity, and Transport Familiarity skills were expanded (or changed) in SH and making HD represent these changes is NOT TRIVIAL. Regardless of what Dan says, editing the XML template files is not easy for novice users. I hope v2 will make this easier since I would only have to edit one template and then let those changes inherit down. Dan, I think it would be great if v2 would have a GUI interface to edit these templates. Editting an XML file with notepad is intimidating to many, even if the process were well-documented.
The title of this thread says it all, really.

First off, you do not need to do a template edit if you don't want to. A perfectly workable solution is to use Custom Skills to represent the new items. You can even save those as prefabs to be used over and over again. You may need to create multiple different Custom Skills for some of the abilities which have lists of options to choose from.....or you can simulate the same thing by having the different options as Adders and then just deselecting the adders that you don't want when you use the prefab.

Editing the template is the best way to do things, but not the only way.

I will be making the template edits much easier with v2 (by way of the hierarchical structure of the new templates), but will not be including a graphical editor.

In the time that you have spent cmplaining about this, you could have created the necessary prefabs and had your own solution (the one that I've been proposing from the outset).

When someone decides that it's worth their time to create custom templates for, say, Star Hero, then they can send them to Ben and he can post them up for everyone to use.

The templates that I maintain and update are the built in templates. Vehicles, Bases, Standard Supers, etc.

It is neither feasible nor advisable to add in the abilities defined in Star Hero into these base-line templates. Someone working on a Fantasy Hero character should not see the Systems Operation categories defined in Star Hero. That's why you should createa custom template if you want to have a truly elegant solution.

My job (and the job of the software) is to make sure that you have the tools that you need to do this should you choose to. You do. You have many different options to accomplish what you're looking for, from the simple "select a skill and type in the new name" to the more permanent "create a prefab with what you need" to the elegantly permanent "create a custom template and share it with the world"

Which way you go is up to you.

The custom templates are not something which I have ever released. Nor are they something which I intend to release. Other folks can feel free.....the same way other folks have been creating custom export templates.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by dsimon
You can even save those as prefabs to be used over and over again. You may need to create multiple different Custom Skills for some of the abilities which have lists of options to choose from.....or you can simulate the same thing by having the different options as Adders and then just deselecting the adders that you don't want when you use the prefab. (snip) In the time that you have spent complaining about this, you could have created the necessary prefabs and had your own solution (the one that I've been proposing from the outset).I think people are talking past each other. I think the nitty gritty that Monolith and others are trying to get at is this (paraphrased in italics):

"It doesn't matter if I can do it myself. That's not the point. The point is, I shouldn't have to do it myself. Since Hero Designer is the official Hero Games chargen software, updates should be provided to make it work hand in hand with new Hero Games releases (even if the update is simply a prefab that someone else builds).

The customization aspects of Hero Designer are great, and they allow the end user to make all kinds of tweaks to accomodate house rules and such. But an end user shouldn't be required to make tweaks in order to use "official" options published in Hero Games genre and campaign books. ("Official" meaning that they're listed as suggested ways of customizing the HERO System to a given genre or setting.) Any tweaks necessary for the tool to handle "official" material should be provided."

So repeatedly offering folks ways they can do it themselves misses the point. The point is they don't think they should have to do it themselves.

This is essentially a customer relations issue. Some customers have expressed the opinion or concern that they think Hero Designer isn't being updated properly because they aren't being provided with "plug-in" solutions for the new books.

Is that a mistake in the customers' expectations? Or is it a genuine beef that Hero Games should address?

(I'm not trying to push a particular answer to that question... I'm just trying to bring some direction to the discussion.)

[Simon]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
I think people are talking past each other. I think the nitty gritty that Monolith and others are trying to get at is this:

It doesn't matter if I can do it myself. That's not the point. The point is, I shouldn't have to do it myself. Since Hero Designer is the official Hero Games chargen software, updates should be provided to make it work hand in hand with new Hero Games releases (even if the update is simply a prefab that someone else builds).

The customization aspects of Hero Designer are great, and they allow the end user to make all kinds of tweaks to accomodate house rules and such. But an end user shouldn't be required to make tweaks in order to use "official" options published in Hero Games genre and campaign books. ("Official" meaning that they're listed as suggested ways of customizing the HERO System to a given genre or setting.) Any tweaks necessary for the tool to handle "official" material should be provided.

So repeatedly offering folks ways they can do it themselves misses the point. The point is they don't think they should have to do it themselves.

This is essentially a customer relations issue. Some customers have expressed the opinion or concern that they think Hero Designer isn't being updated properly because they aren't being provided with "plug-in" solutions for the new books.

Is that a mistake in the customers' expectations? Or is it a genuine beef that Hero Games should address?

(I'm not trying to push a particular answer to that question... I'm just trying to bring some direction to the discussion.)
Well....let's see....seeing as I've never stated or insinuated that HD would be updated with custom templates as new supplements came out....and that I am the lead (and only) developer for HD.....and that the direction that HD takes and the goals of the app are largely up to me (with Steve/HG having their input, obviously).....and seeing as I've stated my views on this not being something which I intend to provide....I'd say that it's a "mistake in the customers' expectations".

If someone is not familiar/comfortable with editing templates, but would really like a custom template which had the abilities and definitions in Star Hero, then they are perfectly capable of posting a request to the boards asking for it.

Sitting here stating that HD doesn't do it for them is going to accomplish little. HD allows them to do it. That is its job. It allows them to do it in numerous different ways. They simply need to decide which way they would like to do it.

The subject of whether custom templates will be provided by myself in an "official" manner for HD is not open to discussion. They will not be. I will provide, maintain, and update the baseline templates which provide you with the rules and definitions given in FREd. That is what I have been doing since day 1 and is what I will continue to support.

[tiger]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
Is that a mistake in the customers' expectations? Or is it a genuine beef that Hero Games should address?

(I'm not trying to push a particular answer to that question... I'm just trying to bring some direction to the discussion.)

I agree with you Derek. I think there is a bit of confusion between new rules and renamed skills/perks/talents.

It sounds like in V2 it will be easier to fix it all though.

[Killer Shrike]

Dan

The templates that I maintain and update are the built in templates. Vehicles, Bases, Standard Supers, etc.

I think what Monolith and others want is a STANDARD STAR HERO, a STANDARD TERRAN EMPIRE, and in the future a STANDARD FANTASY HERO Template incorporating the EXPANDED/ALTERED rules materials put forth in those products. If a major release from HERO Games says "You can do XYZ" then HD should allow you to do "XYZ". In many cases this is a no big deal applications of a Custom Modifier or similar, but in other cases it is not so straightforward. Saying "you can do it yourself" is kind of tunnel visioned. Its definitely short on the "User Friendly" and "Intuitive" scale. I've constructed and piped around thousands of gigs of Attribute-centric XML data for data streaming and data warehousing purposes; that doesnt mean I want to slog thru more of it when I get home so I can get my HERO Games character designer to do what my HERO Games supplement-of-choice says I can do. Thats just me; I can only imagine what a non-proggie thinks about the prospect.

Im willing to give Dan the benefit of the doubt and wait until v2 comes out to pass judgement. It sounds like he has made allowances in his design to facilitate such mods. I think Dan means well even when his comments get a bit too pointed and a bit too terse for my tastes. Still and all, I also believe that Monolith, if he errs, errs on the side of enthusiasm for HERO Games. When a major banner-man and supporter of a company and a product (such as Monolith for HERO Games) waves the red flag and says 'hold on a sec', it would behove the company in question to pause for thought before dismissing them out of hand.

Personally, I think this sort of tunnel vision shows up a little even in the coverage of FREd. For example, its never made sence to me that Succor gets it's own "Power" slot in HD but not Regeneration. Regeneration is a specifically defined kludge of the main rules that requires reference to the main text to ensure correctness all too often IME, whereas Succor is pretty straight forward, yet Regen has to be Prefabbed or hand rolled each time and Succor is a clicking exercise. {Shrugs}.

YMMV, IMHO, etc etc etc....

[Rigel]

Dan, I understand what you are saying. I could use Custom Skills and prefabs, yes. There are other ways to get there. Editing the character template seems to make the most sense to me and that's exactly what I did for the Sys Ops skills for me SH game.

What I guess I don't understand is why updating your product and making it more user-friendly for folks playing SH or FH games is something you aren't interested in doing? It would seem to me this would make your SH/FH players happier and generate more sales and thus more money for you and for DOJ/HG. I can completely understand you're saying, "This is a low-priority issue and I will put it on my list of improvements near the bottom of the list." What I can't understand is this flat refusal to see this as something worth your time. If it would be so easy to do (in the time it's taken us to complain about it), then why would you not be interested in making your users (and of course customers) happier?

The bottom line is that I have used HD a lot and I plan to keep using it. I am very glad I purchased the app and it was certainly worth the money I spent. And, I plan to buy v2 because I think the whole issue of character template editing will be much simpler and I like the promise that holds. It just seems like a kick in the crotch to have the HD programmer constantly telling me things that I think would add value to the program (right click menus being another recent one) will never see the light of day. If customers ask for it, why not pursue it? The goal is to make more customers, right?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Don't mince words, Dan. What do you really think? ;)

Okay, that's clear enough. Some customers assumed or imagined for themselves a different model of ongoing support than the one that Hero Designer actually uses. It does not use "top-down" support, where new options are added in by "the programming team" (i.e., Dan) and pushed down to the customers. It uses "community" support, where only "hard" changes that affect the functionality of the rules engine are coded by the programming team, and the user community is given the tools necessary to add other things (new options, alternate names, etc.) and share them amongst the community.

This model is not "wrong" or bad, by the way... it's a perfectly reasonable position for a one-man-crew to take, and can end up actually being better for us in the long run. If the community gets into the habit of making Cool Stuff(tm) for Hero Designer and sharing it via the Free Stuff section, we will quickly wind up with a lot more goodies than Dan could possibly have provided all by himself while also working on developing v2.

And I won't talk the talk without walking the walk. Monolith is already working on something for Star Hero/Terran Empire, and I assume he will share it when he's done. (If that's incorrect, Mono, let me know.)

So I'll step up and volunteer to take on Fantasy Hero. As soon as possible after I get my hands on a copy (a copy of the final version, not the playtest), I'll make a Fantasy Hero template available that includes renamed Skills, recosted Skills, new modifiers, etc.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
Don't mince words, Dan. What do you really think? ;)

Okay, that's clear enough. Some customers assumed or imagined for themselves a different model of ongoing support than the one that Hero Designer actually uses. It does not use "top-down" support, where new options are added in by "the programming team" (i.e., Dan) and pushed down to the customers. It uses "community" support, where only "hard" changes that affect the functionality of the rules engine are coded by the programming team, and the user community is given the tools necessary to add other things (new options, alternate names, etc.) and share them amongst the community.

This model is not "wrong" or bad, by the way... it's a perfectly reasonable position for a one-man-crew to take, and can end up actually being better for us in the long run. If the community gets into the habit of making Cool Stuff(tm) for Hero Designer and sharing it via the Free Stuff section, we will quickly wind up with a lot more goodies than Dan could possibly have provided all by himself while also working on developing v2.

And I won't talk the talk without walking the walk. Monolith is already working on something for Star Hero/Terran Empire, and I assume he will share it when he's done. (If that's incorrect, Mono, let me know.)

So I'll step up and volunteer to take on Fantasy Hero. As soon as possible after I get my hands on a copy (a copy of the final version, not the playtest), I'll make a Fantasy Hero template available that includes renamed Skills, recosted Skills, new modifiers, etc.
At last! Someone gets it!

Thanks, Derek, for stating things a bit better than I was.

My main concern at this point is with working in the numerous functionality requests that folks have made. If the functionality exists to accomplish a particular task, then that's really all that is necessary.

That said, I do realize that the template update process can be a bit more streamlined, which is why it's one of the first things that I'm working on in v2. Changing the functionality itself is what I'm concerned with....not the actual use of the functionality.....there's plenty of folks out there (like yourself) who can do a fine job of implementing things.

Once v2 is done and out the door I may even join in and work on a few templates myself (releasing them "unofficially")....it all depends on time and whether I miss any functionality that folks want.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Rigel
I can completely understand you're saying, "This is a low-priority issue and I will put it on my list of improvements near the bottom of the list." What I can't understand is this flat refusal to see this as something worth your time. If it would be so easy to do (in the time it's taken us to complain about it), then why would you not be interested in making your users (and of course customers) happier?

The bottom line is that I have used HD a lot and I plan to keep using it. I am very glad I purchased the app and it was certainly worth the money I spent. And, I plan to buy v2 because I think the whole issue of character template editing will be much simpler and I like the promise that holds. It just seems like a kick in the crotch to have the HD programmer constantly telling me things that I think would add value to the program (right click menus being another recent one) will never see the light of day. If customers ask for it, why not pursue it? The goal is to make more customers, right?
I was going to let this drop, but this needs a response, methinks.

The goal of the app is NOT to implement every thing that anyone asks for. That will quickly ruin any application.

The reason HD works as well as it does (IMO) is because the original vision of the app has continued to be maintained. It has not become a hodge-podge of features that various users have wanted. It has remained true to its original intent/design.

This s crucial in any application.

I am perfectly willing to implement any features which lend themselves to the design and functionality/purpose of HD.

Issues which go against this, or which are "secondary" to it, I look at and decide if I think they are worthwhile (an entirely subjective evaluation). If I think that they would be a good thing (IMO), then I add them in. If not, then I don't. It's that simple.

I (personally) hate popups. I can add in the same functionality to the app without them, so I will continue to not use them. This will upset some people, and please others.

I feel that my time is better spent working on the actual functionality of the application than in producing custom templates that any number of people could create as well as (or even better than) I could. Again, some people will be upset by this, others will like it (you, evidently, don't like it....the guy waiting on the user preferences screen and the ability to specify whether to use modifier intelligence, the number of decimal places to round to, and so forth, will like it quite a bit).

The long and short of it is, I really don't care what folks think of decisions like these. I'm sorry if this offends you, but I really don't know you. Nor do I really want to.

I'm making HD because I want to. Because I believe in the project and have a great time coding it.

I'm making it for me.

If decisions that i make along the way piss you off, then that's fine. It won't change the fact that they are my decisions to make. And it won't change the decisions themselves.

When it's all said and done, I'm making HD for myself. The fact that others like it is really just a nice plus.

I'm certainly not making it for the money. If I were doing that, I would have made a differential trading application and sold it to some bank. The gaming community simply isn't that lucrative of a market. It's something that you do for the love of the game.

I have no problems implementing features that I (personally) have no use for, so long as they fit in with the concept that I have for the application.