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zornwil
Sep 23rd, '06, 10:45 AM
A bit of a long post - I broke it into sections so anyone who wants to get to the meat can go to the "New House Rules" part, if you already remember or don't care about the background (but if you don't care AND want to critique, you should really read the whole thing first, please).

**INTRODUCTION**

This is an old topic but I'm finalizing my rules regarding making "absolute" abilities more scalable on the higher end (technically, this could work on the lower end, too, I guess, but haven't given that much thought).

Bear in mind these are house rules pure and simple, I am not advocating as core rules.

**BACKGROUND**

Background first: there are a few abilities which are essentially absolute and have flat costs, with no scaling, once employed they also typically have no counter, aside from Suppression or Drain or the like. Damage Reduction is one; for example, if you purchase 75% DR, you have that pretty much no matter what, for a flat fee. As a campaign graduates to higher levels, it remains and is quite effective for the small (relatively) number of points paid.

There's also Invisibility and Darkness, both what I am calling "Sense Blocking" powers. Aside from a Detect - possibly, one could argue this - Invisibility or Darkness to a sense cannot be overcome, aside from Suppression/the like.

In my game, I also have Invulnerability, which is bought for a flat cost on an SFX basis.

Desolid is an absolute as well; it has "Affects Desolid" as a counter in the system - but once you have that Advantage, you absolutely cancel Desolid and there is no countering that for the Desolid character.

I have reviewed others but to me they aren't quite as scale-unfriendly. Clairsentience can be blocked via Sense Blocking powers and its own abilities depend on PER, so any consequences of "absolutism" rest back with Sensory issues. Also, the way Clairsentience works, it makes sense a field of Suppression would be the primary blockage aside from the Sense Blocking powers.

Things like Extra-Dimensional travel can be thwarted by blank spots and Force Fields and so on. Body-Affect "self-absolutes" (Growth, Shrinking, Shape Shift) need no real counter, in my opinion, and so the brute force Suppression and other methods seem okay. Summon much the same. And so on.

That being said, these are just my views and I'm not suggesting that these are real system problems. But I single out the ones that are not only flat costs but once purchased can be troublesome to get around as campaigns scale up.

In order to address this, I basically took the Armor Piercing/Hardened mechanic and applied it, as discussed prior, but now I'm codifying this and we'll give it a whirl in my game, as my campaign is going high-powered.

**NEW HOUSE RULES**

Most of that application is very simple. For Damage Reduction we now have +1/2 Affects Damage Reduction which can be applied to any attack, and DR gets +1/4 Hardened Against Affects Damage Reduction. Invulnerable follows exactly the same path. Desolid gets a new Advantage, +1/4 Hardened Against Affects Desolid.

The Senses get something as simple in terms of Advantages, +1/2 Affects Sense Blocking (which applies to BOTH Darkness and Invisibility) and +1/4 Hardened Sense Block. But what does that mean?

To start with, in order to understand this, we now view Invisibility and Darkness as in effect a reduction to PER 0 for all who might otherwise perceive the target or see through the perception suppression. In order to perceive the Invisible or through the Dark, a character must raise that PER roll above 0 (i.e., to make a PER roll possible at all). This is in accordance with the idea that if a PER roll/skill roll is reduced to 0 or less by range you cannot use it (page 349 5ER, suggested as a "guideline"). This PER is unaffected by INT (although one successful base visibility is established via a successful non-INT-based PER roll, the application of INT for attention to detail and so on may be used). All PER bought has normal range modifiers applied – thus to see an Invisible object at 5”, -2 is applied. Anytime a range penalty reduces PER to 0, no roll is possible. PER bought to see Invisible characters is bought as normal PER but with the +1/2 Affects Sense Block Advantage. As Invisibility or Darkness may be bought with +1/4 Hardened Sense Block Advantage, each level of Affects Invisible and Darkness negates one level of Hardened.

**EXAMPLE**

For an example:

Ultimate Seer wants to have a pretty good chance of seeing Invisible characters in an 8" radius around him with his Sight. He wants to have a 14/less at 8". 8" is -2, so he wants +16 PER. So that's 24 points (16 points for +16 PER with the +1/2 Affects Sense Block Advantage applied).

**CLOSING**

Yes, there are definitely mechanical weaknesses in this approach in terms of how it relates to how PER is normally used, but I think it will work. I blurred Invisibility and Darkness together by looking at cost utilities and alternate approaches with Detect, plus the relatively inexpensive nature of both Darkness and Invisibility. I think this will work okay. Could be wrong...

Anyway, just posting for interest's sake and to wrap up an old discussion (some year+ back).

TheQuestionMan
Oct 4th, '06, 01:38 AM
House Rules: Luck Chits

At the beginning of each session the Players draw randomly one Luck Chit from the Bag. Player Characters with the Luck Power randomly draw an additional Luck Chit for every d6 of Luck.

At the End of each session all Players return any unspent Luck Chits to the Bag. Sometimes you want Quantity, sometimes Quality. The Luck Chits go away at the end of the game, no carry over. Use 'em or lose 'em... which encourages interactive use and not hoarding.

White Luck Chits: x 30 [1W = 1W] Allows a Reroll of any one roll you control. Or allows an Abort Manuever (to Dodge, Block, Dive for Cover, etc …) without using an Action. It also allows a single Recovery, without using an Action. It also allows Players to modify the Hit Location Chart (Defensively) and move the hit location by One (up or down).

Green Luck Chits: x 30 [1G = 2W] Same as White, plus you can spend a green to take away a single die in a "to hit" or "skill" roll, to gain a success. Rolled a 15... Spend a Green, take away that 6, now you have a 9! Success! (The GM randomly draws a chit for the villains, if you spend a Green) It also allows Players to modify the Hit Location Chart (Defensively) and move the hit location by Two (up or down).

Blue Luck Chits: x 30 [1B = 3W or 1G & 1W] same as Green, without any benefit to GM. Blue is also a way to "flex" powers in a supers game. It allows a power to be used in a way that fits the SFX, but they haven't paid points for. [Ex: Flame character... wants to reduce the fire in a room to save a child... but doesn't have this power. Spends a Blue for this one action, his EB (or whatever) becomes Suppress normal fires, and he can do it.]
Blue also allows for "dramatic editing" so that the character can simply say, "I grab the broom handle and snap it off, so I have a stake to fight the vampire!" rather than asking, "Is there anything wooded around?" In the case I highlighted in the last Secret Worlds adventure... on PC was way out of the combat, and spent the Blue to come up with a creative way to get his character there "right now!". It also allows Players to modify the
Hit Location Chart (Defensively and Offensively) and move the hit location by Three (up or down).

Yellow Luck Chit: x 1 [1Y = 2B or 3G or 6W] There is only one in the bag, but if drawn, the player can become GM for a scene. They get to create and event or subplot or something along those lines, that fits with their character concept and long term goals. I've had one person spend it so his character finally got his Thesis on Paranormal Gestation Theory published, and to wide acclaim, so he became famous in those circles as THE expert on metahuman bio-genesis.

Another spent it, so that during a mission, he accidentally stumbled across some critical information about villain financing... this changed the entire SHAPE of the campaign, as the villains funding was exposed, and they had to come out of the shadows, rather than manipulate from behind the scenes.

The Yellow Luck Chit is usually just one "scene" or "event" They don't tend to really run the game in terms of controlling NPCs... They just say, "Ok... here's this cool thing that I want to have happen, with this or that character..." They often don't force a certain outcome, they just want to have something that really shows off their character, or allows their character to have a really big impact on the plot. (I guess it could be abused, but I've got great players. They tend to enhance the story and the world... not control it.)

Luck Power: [ each d6 Luck = 1 Luck Chit ] Drawn randomly and still allows the Player Characters to use the Luck Power as written in HERO System 5th Edition .

It's a great system ... players seem to really love it ... and it gives flexibility within limits. I've been doing it for probably 6 years or more at this point. I'd never go back. .

I'd created a generic "luck roll" to help determine random events. Roll 3d6... sixes good, ones bad. So if a player asks something like, "I need a rock to throw at the wild dogs making off with the baby!" I'd say, "Roll a luck roll," to determine if there just happened to be a rock around. Good luck, there is a perfect throwing rock, right at your feet. Bad luck... no rock to be found. Neither/nor... there is a rock, but its’ 20 feet away, and will take a turn to get it.

Luck (the Talent back then, now a Power) allowed characters to roll an extra die for each luck die they had... and that die could only be good for them (ones didn't count.)

RDU Neil’s Dark Champions: Secret Worlds Thread http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...1&page=3&pp=30

This worked pretty well, but for years there was a need to open up Champs/HERO System, to allow some flexibility with powers and give players a little more control over their characters destiny and story.

Then I played Deadlands. (Original Deadlands, when it first came out.) They had chips (poker chips) that you could spend to soak wounds, or make rolls better, or whatever. It was a great mechanic. After only one session, I realized that this was a way to make Luck in Hero very viable.



Cheers

QM

zornwil
Oct 6th, '06, 06:08 PM
I didn't get many responses so feared this was uninteresting, but I got 2 reps and that's really cool, I feel great, thanks! (Why did I say this publicly? Because I think that's the coolest use of rep and I encourage it, and want people to know that their rep is appreciated)

TheQuestionMan
Oct 7th, '06, 12:48 AM
If it is any consolation I am still trying to REP you for another topic so far unsuccessfully.

I really liked RDU Neil’s Luck Chits idea and my Players love it.



Cheers

QM

Trebuchet
Oct 7th, '06, 03:03 AM
Interesting. I'm curious what the numbers mean? Number of chits of each type in the bag?
White Luck Chits: x 30 [1W = 1W]

Green Luck Chits: x 30 [1G = 2W]

Blue Luck Chits: x 30 [1B = 3W or 1G & 1W]

Yellow Luck Chit: x 1 [1Y = 2B or 3G or 6W] So there's 30 of each except the yellow? Where do played chits go? Back into the draw bag, or into a "discard" pile? Can you spend more than one at the same time? Can players pool their chits to get a desired result?

Have there been any downsides to using this system? What has been its major upside so far as the game is concerned?

Diamond Spear
Oct 7th, '06, 04:41 AM
Damage Reduction is one; for example, if you purchase 75% DR, you have that pretty much no matter what, for a flat fee. As a campaign graduates to higher levels, it remains and is quite effective for the small (relatively) number of points paid.


But isn't Armor Piercing a simple way to offset Damage Reduction? If so I am unsure how the point cost for Damage Reduction is not enough for a high powered/high point game.

zornwil
Oct 7th, '06, 05:25 AM
If it is any consolation I am still trying to REP you for another topic so far unsuccessfully.

I really liked RDU Neil’s Luck Chits idea and my Players love it.



Cheers

QM
I'm well consoled already, thanks!

zornwil
Oct 7th, '06, 05:37 AM
But isn't Armor Piercing a simple way to offset Damage Reduction? If so I am unsure how the point cost for Damage Reduction is not enough for a high powered/high point game.
I'm not sure what you mean by "is AP a way of offsetting DR"?

There have been discussions elsewhere, I think a search on Damage Reduction will quickly find threads already discussing this but if not I can look. Anyway, in brief, the issue with the cost of DR is that, because it has no relationship to the points level of the game, it's utility equally varies with that points level. For example, 50% Resistant DR is (IIRC) 30 points. We started our game at 155+60 or thereabouts. Anyone who bought it at that time basically was paying 30 points to relieve 50% of attacks, and at that time that 50% would be typically going against somewhere around 8-12 DC attacks (just really roughly). Now, that same defense at the same points value is offsetting 50% of 24-30 DC attacks as the campaign has moved on to being much more high-powered. So originally for that 30 points you defrayed, for a normal attack, 14-21 STUN, and later for a normal attack you defrayed 42-52.5 STUN. There's also an issue of course with DR in lower-powered games, where it costs "too much" (but of course, one can argue that DR is a less attractive and appropriate power in such games, but all this of course is really a separate issue than DR as an "absolute" as defined in this thread).

ngross
Oct 14th, '06, 06:50 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "is AP a way of offsetting DR"?

There have been discussions elsewhere, I think a search on Damage Reduction will quickly find threads already discussing this but if not I can look. Anyway, in brief, the issue with the cost of DR is that, because it has no relationship to the points level of the game, it's utility equally varies with that points level. For example, 50% Resistant DR is (IIRC) 30 points. We started our game at 155+60 or thereabouts. Anyone who bought it at that time basically was paying 30 points to relieve 50% of attacks, and at that time that 50% would be typically going against somewhere around 8-12 DC attacks (just really roughly). Now, that same defense at the same points value is offsetting 50% of 24-30 DC attacks as the campaign has moved on to being much more high-powered. So originally for that 30 points you defrayed, for a normal attack, 14-21 STUN, and later for a normal attack you defrayed 42-52.5 STUN. There's also an issue of course with DR in lower-powered games, where it costs "too much" (but of course, one can argue that DR is a less attractive and appropriate power in such games, but all this of course is really a separate issue than DR as an "absolute" as defined in this thread).

I am coming into this rather late. You probably have tried and discarded most of my ideas below.

Since you are dealing with house rules so much, why not just change/get rid of the absolute powers. This way there could be some of the balance that you are looking for on point spending. It will be hell on play testing and will probably frustrate your players greatly....

Example:
Damage Reduction. Change it to a bastardized absorption. Say 5 points gets you 1d6 of resistant and 3 points gets you 1d6 of non-resistant damage reduction. Damage reduction is rolled like simplified healing or normal damage. It can be armor pierced, hardened, etc. just like any other defense.

Character HitMe has 6d6 resistant damage reduction (costing 30 points). He is hit for 15 BODY and 45 STUN. The player rolls the 6 dice (5,3,1,4,6,3) and the damage is reduced to 9 BODY and 23 STUN.
Not sure if this is what you are looking for. But as far as starting values, this is close to your example above. However, as the power levels go up, the player would have to buy more to keep on level. On the down side... more dice rolling.

Also, I am curious.... Is there any reason that you are not using negative skill levels to represent/simulate Invisibility/Darkness? That could also get hairy with all of the different sense groups and such...

zornwil
Oct 14th, '06, 11:02 PM
I thought a bit about quantizing the absolutes, so to speak, so that as you suggest they could always be incrementally countered, however that becomes its own scaling dilemma in that if you want an ability such as DR or Invulnerability, you basically have to ensure it is still a reasonably buy against just buying lots of defense points in the normal range of points of play and that you can buy greater steps for some relative cost. Bear in mind of course I also want these near-absolute abilities, and for their counters to be rare. So that plays into any such solution.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by Invis/Darkness, nor the different sense groups. You already have to purchase the sense groups, this doesn't add to that, it's a single modifier on the powers themselves. If you want to apply the ability to see the invisible with your vision, you just apply it to the Enhanced Perception for Sight or apply it to that or apply it to whichever senses you want it with, similarly if your Invisibility is vs. Sight and you want to reinforce that you just apply the Advantage. It should, in theory, not add anything more than having an additional Advantage.

zornwil
Oct 14th, '06, 11:08 PM
PS - I should add that I did consider the skill level route, the net effect isn't so different in that either way you pick an arbitrary start point for where you want the so-called absolute to be as a modifier. The approach I chose just basically allowed for greater consistency, ensuring they all basically work the same, and also seemed to make more sense from a costing level overall, plus had the advantage of allowing the same sort of cost structure and investment strategies (so to speak) in that you have to basically stack advantages to suceed, not just put a few more points into it, essentially ensuring that each successive level is rare and harder to achieve.