How far can a telekinetic throw himself?

[Day6000]

So we have a Telekinetic right. This Telekinetic has a bum leg so he can only move 3 inches at the most. If he had telekinesis of 40, shouldn't he be able to pick himself up and move himself around x-men style? How far do you think he should be able to move? A guy i know said he should only be able to move like 7 inches. I dno if he really thought that or he was just being a deuche but i'd like your opinion. Thanks

[Supreme Serpent]

In HERO, I'd say zero inches. If the telekinetic wants a power reflecting him throwing himself, he should get a power like flight or superleap with the SFX of "telekinetically throwing himself".

[garou]

I'd think about letting him do it. I'd even let him use the Realistic Throwing table. Of course, I'm going to treat the whole thing as one giant whalloping Knock-Back attack, but hey, he's now either 12" away (standard STR table, as a standing throw with 30 excess Strength), or somewhat more than 8,045" away (realistic throwing table, from Ultimate Brick), and prone. Probably stunned too. And he's have to actually hit the target hex.

But if he wants to do it with no damage, then yeah, Supreme is right.

(I wonder how bad the damage would be from 8,045" of knockback, anyway. . . . )

[secretID]

I know I've seen somewhere - either rules or FAQs - that you can't use telek to move yourself in any way; you have to buy the movement power.

[Insaniac99]

I know I've seen somewhere - either rules or FAQs - that you can't use telek to move yourself in any way; you have to buy the movement power.

yeah, but imho it's stupid not to allow something like what garou describes, you can pickup and trown other people and objects, surely you could pickup and throw something you are attached to, that doesn't mean it won't hurt though.

[schir1964]

So we have a Telekinetic right. This Telekinetic has a bum leg so he can only move 3 inches at the most. If he had telekinesis of 40, shouldn't he be able to pick himself up and move himself around x-men style? How far do you think he should be able to move? A guy i know said he should only be able to move like 7 inches. I dno if he really thought that or he was just being a deuche but i'd like your opinion. Thanks
Per the rules, the power Telekinesis is "reactionless" so that you can't be dragged, moved, or pick yourself up with it.

However, there other ways to build this SFX.

- Christopher Mullins

[Thia Halmades]

My understanding of the rules is as Supreme describes - if you buy TK (and I believe it's in the text body FOR TK) then you can only do what TK allows - the manipulation of other objects. In HERO terms, you want to buy "flight" or "leaping" with the SFX, powered by TK. Which is fine! No problem! But the system does force you to build accordingly, otherwise you're getting "two for one" which the system patently does not allow.

[Kristopher]

The published rules don't allow the use of the Telekinesis Power to lift or move yourself, and I wouldn't allow it myself.

However, if you wanted to allow it, I'd say use the Realistic Throwing Table, as mentioned earlier, and simply apply 40 STR to the mass of a human being on that table.

[TheRavenIs]

What about using 'whatever' you are standing on? TK allows that to be moved under control, so what if your C was standing on the 'whatever'?

[schir1964]

What about using 'whatever' you are standing on? TK allows that to be moved under control, so what if your C was standing on the 'whatever'?
I wouldn't think this is legal either. Also, the logic behind this type of movement is somewhat bizarre (which is not to say it is bad, just odd) since lifting a platform with other people in it, you are the anchor on which the "push" is used for movement of the object. I think the built in limitation to Telekinesis is that the character is defined as the only anchor for the power (you can't make the ground or anything else the anchor). Therefore, once you step onto the platform you no longer have an anchor to push from and the platform falls or doesn't lift as it were.

- Christopher Mullins

[TheRavenIs]

If TK is reactionless, then it has no anchor, and it doesn't need one.

[PhilFleischmann]

Aaaaaaaagh! Trying to explain telekinesis with real-world physics! Nooooo!

You can't use TK to move yourself. Why? Because of game balance issues. It has nothing to do with physics. If you could move yourself with TK, no one would ever buy any movement powers, especially if you allow them to use the "Realistic" throwing tables.

But I'm a pretty flexible guy. I suppose I might allow someone to throw themselves with TK. It won't happen very often, because 1) you'll have to make an attack roll to land in the right spot, 2) you are an unbalanced, non-aerodynamic object, 3) you'll hit the ground and take damage like any other thrown object. Generally not a good move, but it might make a good dramatic desparate move attempt in a game. And I would use the regular STR table, not the so-called "realistic" throwing table.

[schir1964]

If TK is reactionless, then it has no anchor, and it doesn't need one.
Sorry, I wasn't specific enough, Telekinesis is "Reactionless" as far as feedback. Or in Newton's terms, you have an Action, but no Reaction. You can push something away, but can't push yourself away. It's one directional.

So to do the "Action" portion does require you to be the anchor. The "Reaction" part doesn't exist so you can't move the anchor to something else.

If that's not good enough for you, oh well. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

You can't use TK to move yourself. Why? Because of game balance issues.
Quite correct. I wasn't trying to explain why Telekinesis works with physics. I was explaining the results of the Telekinesis rules with physics examples. It makes no sense for Telekinesis to be "Reactionless", but that is how the book has defined it. So that's that.

- Christopher Mullins

[TheRavenIs]

And I am happy we can ignore that if we wish.

[schir1964]

And I am happy we can ignore that if we wish.
Agreed.

- Christopher Mullins

[garou]

But I'm a pretty flexible guy. I suppose I might allow someone to throw themselves with TK. It won't happen very often, because 1) you'll have to make an attack roll to land in the right spot, 2) you are an unbalanced, non-aerodynamic object, 3) you'll hit the ground and take damage like any other thrown object. Generally not a good move, but it might make a good dramatic desparate move attempt in a game. And I would use the regular STR table, not the so-called "realistic" throwing table.

Um, the whole point of allowing someone with Str 40 teke to use the Realistic Throwing Table was because the 8,045 dice of Knockback damage pretty much ensures that the character will not be making a second attempt.

(Yes, I'd warn them first - of how far they would go, and how much damage they take. Anyone who wants to fling themselves, via TK, 10 miles, despite the warning from the GM, deserves the consequences of their actions.)

[Rapier]

As it's been said. 0". A Telekinetic cannot move himself with Telekenisis. However, if he had purchased Flight (or actually Leaping would be more accurate) with the SFX of "throwing himself" that would be fine.

You cannot use TK in that manner to get around NOT purchasing a movement power. Dump some points into Leaping.

[Insaniac99]

I'm glad most of us came to an agreement that its ok to throw yourself ocaisionally as long as all throwing rules such as to hit and damage are followed

[tgrandjean]

*chuckles* Personally I'd require him to purchase a Telekinetic tricks multipower. That way he can TK a large single object, a radius of multiple objects, Entangle based on TK 'bands of force' (and allowing TK 'force objects'), TK based Flight (though better out of the MP), an Energy blast (perhaps with double knockback), etc, etc....

[Bloodstone]

I wouldn't let somone use the throwing tables. Throwing yourself is called Leaping. As such, if we converted the 40 STR TK directly to normal STR, it would net you +8" of Leaping.

Mind you, I would definitly allow a character to try this stunt once or thrice with a Power skill roll. The better the roll, the more active points of Leaping I would let you simulate.

But I see a character trying this trick more then a few times and he damn well better pony up some points for Leaping or Flight...

[Markdoc]

There's a practical reason as well as a game balance reason, TK is reactionless.

Mr 40 TK stands on a car and lifts it with his telekinesis. If he can do that, then presumably the car can interact with his telekinesis and vice versa. When he gets where he wants, he lifts the car in the air to throw it. He now has 1800 pounds of car pressing him down into the ground...

Or to put it more simply, try this simple exercise.

Lift a chair. So, you can lift - and even throw - a chair (you don't actually have to throw it unless you're Steve Ballmer).

Now..... hop up on the chair. Take a firm grip on it. Lift it into the air! Go on, you can do it!

Or not.

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Sorry, I wasn't specific enough, Telekinesis is "Reactionless" as far as feedback. Or in Newton's terms, you have an Action, but no Reaction. You can push something away, but can't push yourself away. It's one directional.

So to do the "Action" portion does require you to be the anchor. The "Reaction" part doesn't exist so you can't move the anchor to something else.

If that's not good enough for you, oh well. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

That actually makes sense, sort of.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary notes we'll have to think about it.

[Lucius]

It's too early in the morning for me to think clearly, but maybe this idea has merit:

Telekinesis is seperate from Flight for the same reasons STR is seperate from Running & Swimming.

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Multipower

[secretID]

It might be strange that TK allows you to move or throw others but not yourself, but it's equally strange if TK can fully manipulate other objects but only throw the TK character. If I can pick up a 200 lb. weight and put it on a shelf, why can I only throw myself across the room?

I think you should keep TK as it is, change it to give the player full manipulation of himself and make TK more expensive, or insist that any player with TK also have flight.

[schir1964]

Just a further note:

Does anyone allow a character to "Throw Themselves" with normal STR?

I woiuldn't allow it for the same reason that I wouldn't allow for Telekinesis (or Ranged STR), it doesn't make any sense to do it that way. To me, Leaping, which uses STR, models the SFX more accurately.

Just My Humble Opinion

[Insaniac99]

Just a further note:

Does anyone allow a character to "Throw Themselves" with normal STR?

I woiuldn't allow it for the same reason that I wouldn't allow for Telekinesis (or Ranged STR), it doesn't make any sense to do it that way. To me, Leaping, which uses STR, models the SFX more accurately.

Just My Humble Opinion

the way I figure it is this, the TKer plots what happens to the object bfore he starts using the power, so he just pick up and flings the object, if he goes flying with the object hell be hurt when he lands... It gives tk a little functionality but at the cost of some dice of damage, the leaping method is just free leaping and not much can go wrong.

[Brainstorm]

As a little aside, a red flag went off with this confluence of looking for a loophole to get freebie Flight and having what likely is a Physical Disadvantage (the bum leg) that was worth real points. People who can fly at will should not get points for a Physical Disadvantage related to a walking disability.

Also, I agree that if you want to fly or bounce or whatever, do that with a Movement Power rather than trying to fabricate a free form of Movement out of a completely different Power. I get the sense that a few people here are confusing the Power of Telekinesis with the SFX that is their personal concept of how telekinesis ought to work. The Power of Telekinesis could have any SFX from sending out a little radio controlled drone equipped with a tractor beam to spontaneously generating a swarm of load-bearing butterflies.

Others are right to claim there is no "how Telekinesis really works" argument to be made, not only because there are no real world telekinetics (http://www.randi.org/), but also because the Telekinesis Power is a HERO game mechanic that may or may not have anything at all to do with a particular psychic ability. If you have a clear idea of what a particular character ought to be able to do, then buy all the Powers you need to buy to flesh out that idea. Either you believe it ought to be a particular way strongly enough to pay to make it so, or the additional Power(s) you wanted to use in the game really aren't that important to your concept.

Regards,
Brainstorm

[Insaniac99]

As a little aside, a red flag went off with this confluence of looking for a loophole to get freebie Flight and having what likely is a Physical Disadvantage (the bum leg) that was worth real points. People who can fly at will should not get points for a Physical Disadvantage related to a walking disability.

Also, I agree that if you want to fly or bounce or whatever, do that with a Movement Power rather than trying to fabricate a free form of Movement out of a completely different Power. I get the sense that a few people here are confusing the Power of Telekinesis with the SFX that is their personal concept of how telekinesis ought to work. The Power of Telekinesis could have any SFX from sending out a little radio controlled drone equipped with a tractor beam to spontaneously generating a swarm of load-bearing butterflies.

Others are right to claim there is no "how Telekinesis really works" argument to be made, not only because there are no real world telekinetics (http://www.randi.org/), but also because the Telekinesis Power is a HERO game mechanic that may or may not have anything at all to do with a particular psychic ability. If you have a clear idea of what a particular character ought to be able to do, then buy all the Powers you need to buy to flesh out that idea. Either you believe it ought to be a particular way strongly enough to pay to make it so, or the additional Power(s) you wanted to use in the game really aren't that important to your concept.

Regards,
Brainstorm

very true, and I agree for the most part. However, in my opinion, allowing a character to throw themselves (and take an apropriate ammount of damage) with their TK you get a nice very limited way of using thier TK to move that simulates not having very good control with moving themselves that they won't use often, and it will hurt when they do use it, but is a way of roleplaying growth of a characters powers.

EXAMPLE: the young telekinetic (and I freely admit TK can simulate any SFX not neccisarily psychic of nature but this is for ease of reference) can move other people but has trouble wraping his mind around moving himself, he may ocaisionally fling himself by holding onto an object and throwing it with TK. it hurts, and he doesn't use it often because he is never sure if he'll actualy land where he's aiming but eventually, with time, he learns more precise control and can acurately and safely fling himself across great distances (his character sheet now has leaping) and then with time, He'll learn to use his TK to hold himself up in the air to Fly

[schir1964]

Well, what is Telekinesis mechanically?

It is supposed to be the only way to use the STR mechanic at range. At least that is what the rules and FAQs imply. STR doesn't have "reactionless" built into it either. Just one of those oddities.

I don't have a problem if someone wants to ingnore the "reactionless" restriction either. If that is a viable solution, then perhaps the Power Skill can be used to simulate the ability to "throw one's self".

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Guys:

30 Telekinesis EC:

30 TK (40 STR)
30 Flight 17" (useable as swimming) and 0 END

Cool?

Now you are getting 60 points worth of movement power for 30 points, and you are looking might fine. It is your TK that is holding you up, so if that is drained then your ability to fly yourself around also goes down. The flight is zero END because if you can lift nearly 6 and a half tonnes with your mind, lifting your own scrawny 100 kg is not going to break a sweat.

There you go: don't ask why, ask how.

[garou]

Oh sure, we could have come up with all sorts of ways to actually do it, but he question was simply could he do it with teke alone. (Random bit - IMO, unless the character has a secret ID or something, if you are able to fly at will and for no END, then the bad leg isn't worth any points as a limitation.)

[Zeropoint]

Something that's always bugged me about the wording of the TK writeup: the fact that it's reactionless *should* allow you to use it to move yourself. In the example given above, if you grab your chair and apply an upward force with your hands, the chair exerts a downward force of equal magnitude on your hands--the reaction force. You and the chair move toward each other, unless another pair of forces is involved: the contact forces exerted by your butt on the chair and by the chair on your butt.

It's these reaction forces which make "picking yourself up by your bootstraps" impossible.

Please note that I am not in any way advocating free Flight for anyone with a TK power, just griping about a technicality in the wording. :)

[PhilFleischmann]

Quite correct. I wasn't trying to explain why Telekinesis works with physics.
I wasn't specifically referring to your post. In fact, if I *were* to make a physics argument about TK (perhaps in a non-RPG context), I probably would assume that TK could move oneself. It may be logical from a (tweaked) physics perspective, but we're not playing physics, we're playing a game. And a game is supposed to be balanced.


Um, the whole point of allowing someone with Str 40 teke to use the Realistic Throwing Table was because the 8,045 dice of Knockback damage pretty much ensures that the character will not be making a second attempt.
Good point, but there's nothing that says they have to use the TK at full strength. They could spend less END and just use enough to throw themselves only as far as they want to. IIRC, using 15 STR TK, with the TUB throwing table, they would go ~250" (halved 5 times, is that right?), so they could use even less than that so throw themselves even shorter distances.

[Lucius]

Something that's always bugged me about the wording of the TK writeup: the fact that it's reactionless *should* allow you to use it to move yourself. In the example given above, if you grab your chair and apply an upward force with your hands, the chair exerts a downward force of equal magnitude on your hands--the reaction force. You and the chair move toward each other, unless another pair of forces is involved: the contact forces exerted by your butt on the chair and by the chair on your butt.

It's these reaction forces which make "picking yourself up by your bootstraps" impossible.

Please note that I am not in any way advocating free Flight for anyone with a TK power, just griping about a technicality in the wording. :)


Actually, if Telekinesis is “reactionless” then yes, you should be able to lift your body as described. If it’s not, then you should be able to lift your body by pressing against the ground. So either, way, it would usually imply some form of Flight.



Also, I agree that if you want to fly or bounce or whatever, do that with a Movement Power rather than trying to fabricate a free form of Movement out of a completely different Power. I get the sense that a few people here are confusing the Power of Telekinesis with the SFX that is their personal concept of how telekinesis ought to work. The Power of Telekinesis could have any SFX from sending out a little radio controlled drone equipped with a tractor beam to spontaneously generating a swarm of load-bearing butterflies.

Can you explain why the drone or the butterflies would not be able to pick up the character controlling them?

But you’re right, not ALL Special Effects of Telekinesis imply personal Flight. Just most of them.



If you have a clear idea of what a particular character ought to be able to do, then buy all the Powers you need to buy to flesh out that idea. Either you believe it ought to be a particular way strongly enough to pay to make it so, or the additional Power(s) you wanted to use in the game really aren't that important to your concept.

Regards,
Brainstorm

And here you’ve pretty much nailed it. If it makes sense to be able to fly, buy Flight!


Guys:

30 Telekinesis EC:

30 TK (40 STR)
30 Flight 17" (useable as swimming) and 0 END

Cool?

Now you are getting 60 points worth of movement power for 30 points, and you are looking might fine. It is your TK that is holding you up, so if that is drained then your ability to fly yourself around also goes down. The flight is zero END because if you can lift nearly 6 and a half tonnes with your mind, lifting your own scrawny 100 kg is not going to break a sweat.

There you go: don't ask why, ask how.

I think most of us are on the same page with this. Throwing yourself for free – and taking damage – may be a reasonable option for a house rule, but generally, if a character has Telekinesis and DOESN’T take Flight, maybe the Game Operations Director should be asking “why not?” and “do you plan to buy it later?” since it probably fits the concept.

Lucius Alexander

Psychokinetically moving the palindromedary.

[Thia Halmades]

Just a further note:

Does anyone allow a character to "Throw Themselves" with normal STR?

I woiuldn't allow it for the same reason that I wouldn't allow for Telekinesis (or Ranged STR), it doesn't make any sense to do it that way. To me, Leaping, which uses STR, models the SFX more accurately.

Just My Humble Opinion

Well, yes, all the time - but as you say, and what I mentioned initially - we call this "leaping." I was going to also mention that I second the idea that as a Power Trick, +TK STR for leaping, that would be fine (in other words, the whole +8", instead of, say, getting chucked 10 miles). I also believe that used more than once or twice - dare I say thrice - brother better cough up some points for a power build.

[Kelvin]

I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread yet, but there's another good reason why TK shouldn't imply flight --


There's plenty of telekinetics in movies and TV that can't fly (I don't think Sue Storm can, either). Making TK and flight separate powers makes a clean build system -- you don't have to slap "not for flight" limits on the TK for these characters, and suffer having a higher active point cost.


On a side note, the old rules didn't even allow you to punch directly with TK -- if you wanted that, you had to buy an EB with a TK special effect. I didn't like that at the time, but I've come around toward that point of view since.

-- Scott

[Brainstorm]

Just to be thorough, regarding the levitation robot/butterfly swarm Telekinesis SFX, those both could or couldn't also be SFX for Flight, depending on the specifics of how they are defined. If they were defined to include Flight, then buying Flight makes sense.

That said, I am also less averse to some compromise positions mentioned here. Under special circumstances I might allow a Telekinesis user some sort of desperation move that amount to hurling him or herself as far as the available amount of TK STR could throw a person with that weight (and with all the other consequences of being thrown.) Also, I could see allowing a middle ground like letting someone use the Skill Power: Telekinesis Tricks to achieve a narrow range of useful results, like using an action to dramatically reduce falling damage or a really feeble aerial movement like 1" Flight with 0 DCV Concentration and/or x10 END cost. Heck, I could even see allowing stuff like that without a Power Skill, but in that case I certainly would treat them as a rare and unreliable things instead of an easily repeatable feats.

Regards,
Brainstorm

[Hyper-Man]

I could see allowing a character with TK (and a good reason for NO other movement powers with same sfx) to use it to throw themselves in an emergency but would put forth the following restrictions:

They have to be looking at themselves (most likely their feet) to target themselves with the TK. As a result, their chance to hit their target hex will be reduced by this above and beyond the already mentioned minuses for throwing an unbalanced/un-aerodynamic object. They would suffer damage as if being thrown the same distance by another character with no chance for breakfall since the TK-throw was their last action that phase.

[Ternaugh]

In Fantasy Hero (for 4th edition), there was a spell writeup for the Air College that involved using TK to create a heavy gust of wind (Gale Wind, p.206). In the notes for a following spell, Glide (p. 207), it mentioned that Gale Wind was frequently used to launch the caster into the air, to allow gliding. Now, the Gale Wind spell was specifically limited as "Can only push--in designated direction", and notes that the caster is not immune in the description. I'd probably allow it in this limited case, as there would effectively be no control of the "flight" path.

JoeG

[Robyn]

People who can fly at will should not get points for a Physical Disadvantage related to a walking disability.

The power could be bought with "Only in Hero ID", though, to save points. (If the character used their TK to move around in full view of the public, they would compromise their nonheroic ID.)


There's a practical reason as well as a game balance reason, TK is reactionless.

Mr 40 TK stands on a car and lifts it with his telekinesis. If he can do that, then presumably the car can interact with his telekinesis and vice versa. When he gets where he wants, he lifts the car in the air to throw it. He now has 1800 pounds of car pressing him down into the ground...

He also has a lot of ground pressing him against the car.


Lift a chair. So, you can lift - and even throw - a chair (you don't actually have to throw it unless you're Steve Ballmer).

Now..... hop up on the chair. Take a firm grip on it. Lift it into the air! Go on, you can do it!

Or not.

I don't think the issue is so much trying to lift and brace yourself against the same object, as it is trying to use only one object to lever yourself with.


Actually, if Telekinesis is “reactionless” then yes, you should be able to lift your body as described. If it’s not, then you should be able to lift your body by pressing against the ground.

I think the restriction on TK is "must be able to wedge oneself in between two objects". Usually, one of them is the ground. Once you leave that ground, your TK is only pressing against one object, and that isn't enough.

[BNakagawa]

The power could be bought with "Only in Hero ID", though, to save points. (If the character used their TK to move around in full view of the public, they would compromise their nonheroic ID.)


This appears to me to be an inappropriate use of the limitation. If the TK is incapable of being used whenever not fully decked out as a hero, sure. If the hero is simply unwilling to use it when not dressed for heroing, then that's what the 15 points for secret id are for.

[Robyn]

This appears to me to be an inappropriate use of the limitation. If the TK is incapable of being used whenever not fully decked out as a hero, sure. If the hero is simply unwilling to use it when not dressed for heroing, then that's what the 15 points for secret id are for.

If the Disadvantage was violated, it would go away and become a Hunted on his mundane ID :eg:

That said, I haven't gotten to the section for Disadvantages yet, so I may change my mind.

[Lucius]

There's plenty of telekinetics in movies and TV that can't fly (I don't think Sue Storm can, either).


Sure she can. She can move those force field bubbles around, and she and others can stand or sit on or in them. I know I've seen that in the comic books.

However, she does not have telekinesis, as far as I know. Unless you consider using it to move others around a form of telekinesis.


Making TK and flight separate powers makes a clean build system -- you don't have to slap "not for flight" limits on the TK for these characters, and suffer having a higher active point cost.

On a side note, the old rules didn't even allow you to punch directly with TK -- if you wanted that, you had to buy an EB with a TK special effect. I didn't like that at the time, but I've come around toward that point of view since.

-- Scott

These are very good points.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary suggests Telekinesis, No Range, Gestures....

[Vorsch]

I would consider Magneto to be a tk user, limited but the power to move the golden gate bridge would be a sure fire use of tk. Note hes standing on the bridge at the time.

[Day6000]

I had no idea this question would spark such a debate

[Lucius]

I had no idea this question would spark such a debate

Welcome to the Hero Games forums. But whatever you do, don't say the "I" word.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary possesses the property of being “immune to most physical and energy attacks, including ones such as Drains and No Normal Defense attacks” (whatever word we end up applying to it, and whatever SFX justify it)

[Robyn]

Welcome to the Hero Games forums. But whatever you do, don't say the "I" word.

When people say "IPE", they mean "power effects that cannot be perceived". Just don't ask what the "I" stands for.

[BNakagawa]

I would consider Magneto to be a tk user, limited but the power to move the golden gate bridge would be a sure fire use of tk. Note hes standing on the bridge at the time.

How many times has Magneto done that? If he's done it once, then it's TK with a power stunt.

If he rides around on iron plates all the time (or like Terra, rides around on rocks all the time) then it's flight with a TK sfx.

[schir1964]

When people say "IPE", they mean "power effects that cannot be perceived". Just don't ask what the "I" stands for.
< Raises hand and waves it around >

I know! I know! Pick me! Pick me!

- Christopher Mullins

[Brainstorm]

Ummm, okay, so the Invisible Girl and Magneto should be built with Movement Powers of some sort. Examples of people with a particular SFX using a particular Power are not at all arguments about tolerating players freeloading an entirely new Power by piggybacking it on an existing Power. Anyone who gets the spirit of the rules should already understand that handing out freebie "power stunts" like this is, at the very most, a way to justify minor abilities emergent from creative roleplaying. Something as useful Flight or Leaping that is not crippled by severe Limitations is not minor in this context. For that matter, I have a strong hunch players arguing for a free Power are also never wellsprings of creative roleplaying.

Ultimately the purpose of gaming is to have fun. If your idea of fun is BSing your way into a Power advantage over rival players or non-player entities, then save your friends and the rest of the world some time, download a single player game, type in those cheat codes, and smile as the credits roll past. On the other hand, if you want to actually have fun by the process of playing a game, then play the freakin' game already. When that game happens to involve the HERO System, you definitely are missing the point if you make a habit of arguing your way into capabilities exactly like significant Powers that you did not purchase with Character Points.

Regards,
Brainstorm

[Sean Waters]

Oh sure, we could have come up with all sorts of ways to actually do it, but he question was simply could he do it with teke alone. (Random bit - IMO, unless the character has a secret ID or something, if you are able to fly at will and for no END, then the bad leg isn't worth any points as a limitation.)


Well then the answer, simply, is no.

The rules say you can't.

The rules also say there is no action/reaction. They always have. This does not mean what the authors think because it is only action/reaction that stops someone picking themselves up. This bit should be left out of future editions with a bare injunction against doing anything with TK that the rules do not specifically allow.

The other thing is this; why would a Telekinetic THROW themselves? They can move an object a number of inches equal to their TK STR throw but they do not have to hurl objects about - they can mvoe them smoothly and easily and stop them when they want. It a teke COULD pick themselves up, there would be no question of having to take damage from movement.

Once or twice as a power trick, fine: after that, pucker up and spend the points.

[Tom Carman]

Sure she can. She can move those force field bubbles around, and she and others can stand or sit on or in them. I know I've seen that in the comic books.

However, she does not have telekinesis, as far as I know. Unless you consider using it to move others around a form of telekinesis.

If I recall it correctly, her "flight" technique was a bit interesting. Her bubble or platform was on top of a force column, and she did a controlled topple in the direction that she wanted to move. The support columns could be extended or shortened at her will. (Let's not go into an argument about whether this was an actual limitation of the power, or just her conception of it.)

[Sean Waters]

If I recall it correctly, her "flight" technique was a bit interesting. Her bubble or platform was on top of a force column, and she did a controlled topple in the direction that she wanted to move. The support columns could be extended or shortened at her will. (Let's not go into an argument about whether this was an actual limitation of the power, or just her conception of it.)

So, now we have to ask whether someone with force wall can walk on their own force wall, in effect using it to fly...

I think you all know my answer to that one...

[Hyper-Man]

So, now we have to ask whether someone with force wall can walk on their own force wall, in effect using it to fly...

I think you all know my answer to that one...

Troublemaker!

Invisible Girl's method would probably best be represented as Flight with limited altitude (how big/tall a Force Wall construct she can create) plus a Linked limitation to that power. If another character had Sonar (I believe her FoWa's were visible to that sense) they could attack the Force Wall 'legs' directly to force her down.