House Rule: Can be thrown advantage

[nexus]

Building muscle powered thrown weapons as Energy Blasts wasn't working for me for a few reasons so I cam up with something as an alternative. I don't really want to get into "defending it" this or the canonical way just get some opinions on if the pricing is fair.

+1/4 Can be thrown: This advantage can be applied to both normal and killing HTH attacks (and other power that are no range by default). These powers must have at least the physical manifestation limitation and preferably should have Focus. The attack can then be thrown at distance based on the user's strength, weight is assumed to be 0 unless the power also has the Real Weapon limitation. Then the game determines the weight based on the special effects. The weapon is assumed to be balanced and aerodynmaic.

HTH without with this limitation can still be thrown be defult but are assumed to be unbalanced or non areodynamic and if the character does not have an applicable thrown weapon familarity he suffers the normal -3 in addition. An HTH weapon that is both unbalanced and non areodynamic can take a -1/4 limitation.

[BobGreenwade]

I've used this Advantage before. I didn't require the Focus or Physical Manifestation Limitations, but I did require some means of having to go fetch the attack (when you throw it, it isn't in your hand any more). I also generally required Charges on the Advantage, usually just one but generally however many of the weapon in question the character had.

[Hugh Neilson]

+1/4 Can be thrown: This advantage can be applied to both normal and killing HTH attacks (and other power that are no range by default). These powers must have at least the physical manifestation limitation and preferably should have Focus. The attack can then be thrown at distance based on the user's strength, weight is assumed to be 0 unless the power also has the Real Weapon limitation. Then the game determines the weight based on the special effects. The weapon is assumed to be balanced and aerodynmaic.

6d6 EB, Range based on STR (-1/4) = 24 points

I think this is in the ballpark. The fact that STR adds to "can be thrown" makes it more powerful, so it should cost more.

30 Multipower, 30 pool
2 6d6 EB, HA (-1/2)
2 6d6 EB, range based on STR

COST: 34 points

This lets me add STR, but only in HTH. The "can be thrown" weapon remains superior.

6d6 EB, Hand Attack (-1/2), can be thrown (+3/4) would cost 35 points, just marginally more than the Multipower, and adds strength at range.

A RKA and HKA are each the same cost. Ranged is a +1/2 advantage. Logically, "STR adds" is a +1/2 advantage to balance.

6d6 EB, STR Adds would cost 45 points. Tack on Range based on STR (-1/4), and we get 36 points. That's pretty close.

HA and HKA will be incomparable since the HA starts with a -1/2 limitation. Perhaps the better approach is to buy the ranged power, pay +1/2 for STR adds, and get a -1/4 limitation for range based on STR.


HTH without with this limitation can still be thrown be defult but are assumed to be unbalanced or non areodynamic and if the character does not have an applicable thrown weapon familarity he suffers the normal -3 in addition. An HTH weapon that is both unbalanced and non areodynamic can take a -1/4 limitation.

Does this mean "can't be thrown" is -1/2? Can bears take that on their claws and teeth? It seems placing my power in a Focus gets me an ability the unfocused power would lack, effectively making a Focus less limiting at the same limitation value. Since my OIF Power Knuckles can't be thrown, I would get -1/2 for OIF and -1/2 for Can't be Thrown. Meanwhile, the guy with the OAF Club buys the same power at the same cost, with the same -1. As a tradeoff, he can throw the club with a really lousy OCV. I don't see that as balanced.

[Lord Liaden]

I have seen at least one published character with "Range Base On Strength" as a +1/4 Advantage on HKA (it will take me some time to look that up, as I'm not sure which book it was in), so I think this would be a reasonable price. I agree with Bob that other Limitations should not be necessary, but if this is for a normal thrown weapon I'd suggest making the Advantage Naked, and applying 1 Recoverable Charge to it representing having to go pick it up. I should point out that by the rules, any Normal Damage attack which takes the Hand To Hand Attack Limitation cannot be Ranged.

For that and other reasons, I take a slightly different approach to this construct. Consider that it's legal to apply Ranged to a Hand To Hand Killing Attack (HKA). A normal HKA has two components, Base Damage plus Damage added from STR, up to double the Base. To this you add a third component, Ranged, for +1/2. STR is prorated for that Advantage.

For Normal Damage attacks, I start with a basis of Energy Blast, which has two of the three abovementioned components, Base Damage plus Range. To this I add a custom Advantage, "Strength Adds To Damage," at +1/2, the same as Ranged. STR is prorated for that Advantage, and can increase the Damage of the attack up to double the Base.

This gives me a construct with the same Damage Class as a Ranged HKA of the same Active Points, and which is mechanically identical to a Ranged HKA except for doing Normal rather than Killing Damage. Call me a cockeyed optimist, but that seems pretty fair and balanced to me. ;) Of course I can now add any Limitation that I would to a Ranged HKA, such as "Range Based On STR."

EDIT: Hugh and I seem to be mostly on the same page. :)

[mattingly]

I have seen at least one published character with "Range Base On Strength" as a +1/4 Advantage on HKAHow about 5ER p267?

[Robyn]

EDIT: Hugh and I seem to be mostly on the same page. :)

Except for this one part . . . :confused:


I have seen at least one published character with "Range Base On Strength" as a +1/4 Advantage on HKA

Here it's an Advantage . . .


Of course I can now add any Limitation that I would to a Ranged HKA, such as "Range Based On STR."

But here you group it with the Limitations . . .


6d6 EB, Range based on STR (-1/4) = 24 points

Hugh seems to agree.


How about 5ER p267?

I looked it up, and the sidebar has a Throwing Knife with "Range Based On STR (+1/4) for HKA 1/2d6 (2 Active Points)".

So is it a Limitation or an Advantage? :confused:

[Doug Limmer]

So is it a Limitation or an Advantage? :confused:It's a Limitation for a ranged power, and an Advantage for a no-range power.

[schir1964]

So is it a Limitation or an Advantage? :confused:
It's both. There are two versions for two different situations.

1) HKA has no range by default. Range Based On STR is the Advantage version here.
2) RKA has range by default. Range Based On STR is the Limitation version here.

So is it clear as mud now? (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

I looked it up, and the sidebar has a Throwing Knife with "Range Based On STR (+1/4) for HKA 1/2d6 (2 Active Points)".

So is it a Limitation or an Advantage? :confused:

The HKA had no range by default, so it's an advantage. An EB has range by default, so it's a limitation.

So you are correct - it IS an Limitation or an Advantage!;)

The bottom line is that Range Based on STR is better than no range, but not as good as Ranged.

[Valerious]

It's both. There are two versions for two different situations.

1) HKA has no range by default. Range Based On STR is the Advantage version here.
2) RKA has range by default. Range Based On STR is the Limitation version here.

So is it clear as mud now? (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

And the important difference is that the HKA with the advantage gets it's damage increased by STR, but the RKA with the limitation does not.

[Robyn]

So is it clear as mud now? (8^D)

Yes, thank you.


So you are correct - it IS an Limitation or an Advantage!;)

:slap: Where's that rimshot smiley?

[BobGreenwade]

So you are correct - it IS an Limitation or an Advantage!;)And a floor wax! And a dessert topping! :D

[Sean Waters]

What sort of game is this? Do you build the weapon and pay the points or do you obtain weapons with cash or some other in-game token?

If the latter, you would be considering a 'skill' built as a naked advantage, it is worth noting that anything with mass can be thrown, if your strength is sufficient, and it simply attracts combat penalties, so it may be better (or cheaper) to build it as penalty skill levels rather than a naked advantage. However, throwing and hitting with a sword does not necessarily imply hitting with the pointy bit: arguably that is what the OCV modifiers (page 375 of 5ER) simulate - a miss could mean a hit, just with a bit that caused no notable damage.

If you are talking about building a powetr in a superhero campaign, range based on strength is already an advantage (p267 5ER).

[nexus]

Does this mean "can't be thrown" is -1/2? Can bears take that on their claws and teeth? It seems placing my power in a Focus gets me an ability the unfocused power would lack, effectively making a Focus less limiting at the same limitation value. Since my OIF Power Knuckles can't be thrown, I would get -1/2 for OIF and -1/2 for Can't be Thrown. Meanwhile, the guy with the OAF Club buys the same power at the same cost, with the same -1. As a tradeoff, he can throw the club with a really lousy OCV. I don't see that as balanced.

It can't be taken on Claws and Teeth since they are not Foci. Actually, most common special effects of Inaccessiable Foci (its attention to you somehow) would render "can't be thrown" a questionable limitation at best and the GM should probably disallow it. I didn't want to prohibt it entirely because some special effects might allow it.

[nexus]

What sort of game is this? Do you build the weapon and pay the points or do you obtain weapons with cash or some other in-game token?

If the latter, you would be considering a 'skill' built as a naked advantage, it is worth noting that anything with mass can be thrown, if your strength is sufficient, and it simply attracts combat penalties, so it may be better (or cheaper) to build it as penalty skill levels rather than a naked advantage. However, throwing and hitting with a sword does not necessarily imply hitting with the pointy bit: arguably that is what the OCV modifiers (page 375 of 5ER) simulate - a miss could mean a hit, just with a bit that caused no notable damage.

If you are talking about building a powetr in a superhero campaign, range based on strength is already an advantage (p267 5ER).

It is far a superheroic game. I didn't agree with the building thrown weapons as Energy blasts with the "Range Based on Strength" limitation for a number of reason so I intend to use something like this as an alternative. Ranged (and I assumed Range based on strength) are specifically disallowed for HTH attacks in 5th Revised. You are advised to built thrown weapons as energy blast with the appropriate limitations in a superheroic campaign and using the normal rules for throwing things otherwise.

[Sean Waters]

So rather than building thrown weapons a s limited EBs and RKAs you build them as ranged (albeit limited ranged) HA and HKAs?

No problem with that and it allows you to add strength, but I'm pretty sure the advantage I mentioned does that anyway, unless I am missing something.

Interestingly HKAs built this way will be worse off that HAs as the 'STR cost' of adding 1DC will be 6 (well 6.25) for HKAs and only 5 for HAs.

Funny old game.

[Hyper-Man]

I have seen at least one published character with "Range Base On Strength" as a +1/4 Advantage on HKA (it will take me some time to look that up, as I'm not sure which book it was in), so I think this would be a reasonable price. I agree with Bob that other Limitations should not be necessary, but if this is for a normal thrown weapon I'd suggest making the Advantage Naked, and applying 1 Recoverable Charge to it representing having to go pick it up. I should point out that by the rules, any Normal Damage attack which takes the Hand To Hand Attack Limitation cannot be Ranged.

For that and other reasons, I take a slightly different approach to this construct. Consider that it's legal to apply Ranged to a Hand To Hand Killing Attack (HKA). A normal HKA has two components, Base Damage plus Damage added from STR, up to double the Base. To this you add a third component, Ranged, for +1/2. STR is prorated for that Advantage.

For Normal Damage attacks, I start with a basis of Energy Blast, which has two of the three abovementioned components, Base Damage plus Range. To this I add a custom Advantage, "Strength Adds To Damage," at +1/2, the same as Ranged. STR is prorated for that Advantage, and can increase the Damage of the attack up to double the Base.

This gives me a construct with the same Damage Class as a Ranged HKA of the same Active Points, and which is mechanically identical to a Ranged HKA except for doing Normal rather than Killing Damage. Call me a cockeyed optimist, but that seems pretty fair and balanced to me. ;) Of course I can now add any Limitation that I would to a Ranged HKA, such as "Range Based On STR."

EDIT: Hugh and I seem to be mostly on the same page. :)

Here is an example based on this method. Note that STR adds damage differently for each slot.

35 Boomerang Throwing Axe-Hammer: Multipower, 70-point reserve, (70 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1)
3u 1) Axe HKA 2 ½d6, Range Based On STR (+¼), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (70 Active Points) 0
Notes: every 6.25 STR adds 1 DC.
3u 2) Hammer EB 7d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Strength Adds To Damage (+½) (70 Active Points); Range Based On STR (-¼) 0
Notes: Every 5 STR adds 1 DC.

and without Range Based On STR

40 Boomerang Throwing Axe-Hammer: Multipower, 80-point reserve, (80 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1)
4u 1) Hammer: EB 8d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Strength Adds To Damage (= 0 At Range; +½) (80 Active Points) 0
Notes: Every 5 STR adds 1 DC.
4u 2) Axe: HKA 2 ½d6 (3d6 w/STR), STR Bonus = 0 At Range (+0), Ranged (+½), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (80 Active Points) 0
Notes: Every 10 STR adds 1 DC.

[nexus]

Maybe thats why Ranged isn't offically allowed on HTH attacks yet seem to be allowed on HKAs. Consistency often bows to game balance in Hero so I wouldn't be suprised.

My main issue with building them as EBs and RKAs isn't adding strength but that strength doesn't matter aside from how far you can throw you weapon. If I have an +4d6 HTH attack and build an 8d6 EB ranged based on strength to simulate throwing that attack. Anyone that picks up and throws my focus will do 8d6 with it. If my character's Strength is Drained 5 I will still do 8d6 when I throw it but only 5d6 when I used it in melee. Conversely if a Strength 50 brick used my club in melee he'd do14d6 but if he threw it he'd do 8d6.

[Lord Liaden]

Which is one of the reasons for my Custom Advantage above. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

It can't be taken on Claws and Teeth since they are not Foci. Actually, most common special effects of Inaccessiable Foci (its attention to you somehow) would render "can't be thrown" a questionable limitation at best and the GM should probably disallow it. I didn't want to prohibt it entirely because some special effects might allow it.

To restate the point, I don't like the idea of adding more functionality to Hand Attacks and HKA's solely on the basis that they are focuses (or solely because they are accessible foci).

A "standard" HKA which cannot be thrown now costs full points if it's natural, gets a -1/2 limitation if it's an OIF (since it's inaccessible and does not get "can be thrown" by default) and -1 1/2 as an OAF which cannot be thrown. Is that difference between OIF and OAF reasonable?

If the character wants an attack that has range, they should pay for the ability to use the attack at range. If the fact that this means their weapons cannot be thrown effectively [you always have the option of throwing it, but good luck getting a Claymore to strike with full effect on a lob] bothers you, perhaps the character should be required to purchase the ability to use that attack at range, not get it by default.

[Hugh Neilson]

Conversely if a Strength 50 brick used my club in melee he'd do14d6 but if he threw it he'd do 8d6.

Can't he do 10d6 throwing the club, assuming it has a combined DEF and BOD of 10?

[nexus]

To restate the point, I don't like the idea of adding more functionality to Hand Attacks and HKA's solely on the basis that they are focuses (or solely because they are accessible foci).

A "standard" HKA which cannot be thrown now costs full points if it's natural, gets a -1/2 limitation if it's an OIF (since it's inaccessible and does not get "can be thrown" by default) and -1 1/2 as an OAF which cannot be thrown. Is that difference between OIF and OAF reasonable?

If the character wants an attack that has range, they should pay for the ability to use the attack at range. If the fact that this means their weapons cannot be thrown effectively [you always have the option of throwing it, but good luck getting a Claymore to strike with full effect on a lob] bothers you, perhaps the character should be required to purchase the ability to use that attack at range, not get it by default.

Generally, OIFs shouldn't get "Can't be thrown". It would be a GM's discretion based on the special effects. Most accessible foci can be thrown, somewhat inaccurately by default. A weapon with the advantage can be thrown with perfect accuracy. So OIFs would generally just get -1/2 OAFs that for whatever reason can't be thrown at all get a -1/4 for loosing what its a basic ability of an OAF under this House rules. Foci already does give an extra fuunctionality. If the focus is Universal anyone can pick it up and use it. Throwing it removes the focus (and any other powers it might give you) from your poessions until you pick it up again unless you purchase some odd power to get around this.

[nexus]

Can't he do 10d6 throwing the club, assuming it has a combined DEF and BOD of 10?

In a Superheroic game its a Power +4d6 HTH with Focus as a limitation. If the Focus is Universal, everyone that uses it gets +4d6. Body and Def come into play with improvised weapons which don't add any damage at all, just have a cap on how much you can inflict with the before the break.

Foci don't have body only Def. In this case with a 40 ap power I think the clubs Def is 8 if the 8d6eb is the largest power in it so he's still effectively capped at 8d6 if you want to use those rules.