Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

[Remjin]

Hello everyone, had an idea and was hoping people could add to it. Having watched many movies, played a lot of video games, and being formerly rather involved in the martial arts... I have an issue: I hate katanas. Don't get me wrong, like every other fanboy here, I used to love them... and, really, they are great swords and all that... BUT, I'm sick of seeing them in movies, RPGs, video games, etc. exclusive to any other type of sword, except those wielded by incompetents and the guy whose gonna lose/die.

So, herein I propose a simple idea... the coolification (tm) :) of other sword types for all of our Hero based games...

How it will be done: simply, a type of sword and perhaps a visual reference is made, and a case or description of such a blade will follow. I'm going to be pretty free-form here, don't feel restricted, just make the darn thing cool. =)

So, up first...

The Greatsword

It comes in so many flavors, but its basically a gigantic sword that hurts you bad by sheer size and massiveness. Add to it strong materials, a good edge, and the beast wielding it, and its pretty freakin' cool. Think Orson, the berzerker from Record of Lodoss Wars, or any of the many video games that show big F-off swords. Soul Caliber stands out in my mind. What says power and monstrous intimidation more than a greatsword? Any other sword is at a loss to even block this thing. Double-edged, single-edged, doesn't matter.. in this case, size DOES matter!

The Blade of Achilles from Troy

Okay, I don't know about the rest of you, but I enjoyed the movie Troy. Maybe it wasn't a masterpiece, and the ending was disappointing to me, but then I'm not a fan of the mythology or the history all that much. It is interesting, but it just doesn't perk my nipples up any. In any case, Brad Pitt may not have been the best actor in that movie, but the action sequences were GREAT. FINALLY, a movie that doesn't fall into the whole wushu thing and still has great sequences. I also liked that they used some very legitimate techniques from the era, as far as I can tell from my very limited studies on it. Now, gushing about the movie aside, Achilles sword was COOL. The blade part was only sharp along 2/3's of it, from what I could tell, leaving a blund part to shorten his grip for various maneuvers like some of the old Claymores and such had. It had a lot of character, and it was used well. And, for once, shields were used in a creative manner as well. If there was ever an argument for sword and board action, this was it, I think. Very characteristic blade, as were some of the others. A vehicle, really, for the type of action, but still... and as an aside, some nice spear work between Achilles and Hector in their battle as well. If for nothing else, watch this movie for the fight scenes.

I small introduction to this next part... the following swords are all chinese, reference material with some is easy, others difficult as they aren't as popular. I tried to include the proper chinese word, but I don't know any chinese, so if I screw it up, forgive me. Its been a long time since I studied about any of these.

The Dao, or Chinese Broadsword (also known as machettes or knives)

Anyone who has seen a fair number of historyical/mythical kung fu films has seen the chinese broadsword, the curving blade, the handle with the curve in it, the round guard, and sometimes with a tassle/scarf. A great blade to show speed with some weight. Known for its "Whirlwind of Death" types of sword techniques, the Dao makes for a great weapon for the speedy, and the blade size makes for great intimidation factor. If you can find it, watch the movie "The Blade" by Tsui Hark... lots of great swordplay here, but it does have some wirework. The 100 Catty Blade was cool in it as well. =) Also, there is a "trick" version of the Dao that has a single blade that splits into two. Think Michelle Kweon from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, in the weapon room scene.

The Gim, or Chinese Straightsword

Also seen in a lot of kung fu flicks... we've all seen it. There are variations on this sword design that just make the blade wider and thicker as well, and I'm sure there are separate names for these, but they overall come down to the techniques used with them. The usual straightsword is actually used more by the nobles, think of it more like a fencing sword. Blocking was not normally a big part of the technique, some styles didn't even parry with it but focused on dodging instead. Some versions of the sword are relatively thin and could flex and were used within those techniques as well. Typically, the thinner the sword, the more artsy the technique and the focus would fall more into cutting wrists and other parts extended towards them. That version is a great weapon for the more agile types, perhaps even using disable maneuvers. A lot of movies use this sword when they want to emphasize skill and litheness over brute cutting power, and the movements associated with this style of sword are fancy, indeed! The thicker versions of this sword are able to block and cut more forcefully, but typically still use a lot of the interesting moves associated with this sword. This swords use is typified by a much livelier wrist action and the swords movement around the axis of the arm in all directions with the footwork to match. I won't try to describe it overmuch, as there are about a billion movies that show it better than I ever could describe it. =)

Kan Dao, or Executioner's Knife

This is not popular, often billed as a "war sword" on many of the typical sword selling sites. Basically, its a longer handled broadsword with a broader and thicker blade that is shortened some. It is more of a chopping blade made to take advantage of its thickness and weight. The handle is more typically straight, and often has a ring at the bottom, sometimes with a sash. This sword did double duty as a beheading sword and as a fighting sword, and emphasized more two-handed grip maneuvers. There are also a lot of leverage and close-in manipulation maneuvers with this sword, with the ring sometimes used supposedly to do something to the opponent's weapon. Ring sizes vary, probably more of a decoration/philosophical thing... not really sure. If you want a big old chopping blade, though, this can be your ticket. =)

9-Ring Broadsword

Basically, its a Dao or broadsword. Some variations are larger/thicker than the usual broadsword/dao. What they all have in common is 9 (duh) rings pierced through the blunt side of the blade. The rings actually go through holes that go through the blade. The whole poitn of the rings was redistribution of weight. When the blade was held close and upright, the rings all fell back, bringing the balance closer to the hilt, making parrying, blocking, and deflection easier. When swung, the rings flopped outward, thus moving the weight out towards the end of the blade more. The same with thrusting. They also made an awful racket, which could be distracting. The use of 9 instead of whatever other number probably has some mystical/philosophical origin, as well as the fact that they're rings, but I don't really remember or know if they have significance. Check out Jet Li's recent Fearless to see an example of this, as well as Tsui Hark's The Blade and other kung fu movies. I have heard it said thatthe rings can be used for certain combative purposes, but heck if I know if its true. In any case, it looks cool as heck. =)

Butterfly Swords

These are most often linked with Wing Chun, as I believe that style is quite famous for its use, but have been used by other styles as well. Its another big blade, but very short, with a sort of "finger guard." Wing Chun is famous for its use of twin butterfly swords, but the biggest use of them from my understanding was in accompaniment to a shield for troops with little training. Crouching behind the shield and using tumbling maneuvers, fighters would make great use of the shield to get close in somewhat coordinated groups, and use the simple to use short blades in close proximity to cut at the lower extremities. Still, either way, it looks mean as heck, and would be a better concealable sword than your typically long-bladed ones.



Well, now I'm getting a little tired, and I've typed quite a bit here... feel free to add to this discussion! There are lots of cool blades out there, these are only a few, and I'm sure people have better ideas than I do about even these blades. Let's hear them!

[Nolgroth]

Good post. Although I have 'nil in terms of sword training, a friend of mine had both a dao and a katana. Holding both and "swishing" them around made me think that the dao was definitely a better "fit" for me. It just felt more comfortable.

[Remjin]

Oh, I claim no extensive sword training.. =) I studied kung fu for several years, and as part of that, I learned some stuff with the dao and kan dao, but nothing extensive. Two full sets from the longfist style that were great training aids for mobility and wrist strength along with coordination, though.

Only chance I got to do any actual fighting work with it was when I used a bunch of the techniques while boffer fighting. =) Useful, effective, and gave me more of a contextual way of thinking of the movements... but you can hardly use the kicks, throws, and various other maneuvers due to the rules inherent to boffer fighting. =)

I just want to see something besides katanas in games. =)

[Rapier]

There are also a few of the western swords:

Obviously, there was the rapier. A small, slim sword with a point and a sharp edge (usually along one side, however dual edged ones were not unheard of). Battles with these swords were usually over very quickly. Battles consisted, for the most part, of using the blade to avoid your opponents attacks. Attacks are centered on the body mass. Stance is side-on with the handed hip (right for righties) facing the opponent and the weapon extended. Forward foot is parallel with hips, back foot is perpendicular. The backward foot provides strength and momentum. The back hand is arched and applies balance (like a squirrel tail). Both parties were usually unarmored or lightly armoured (a rapier isn't going to do you much against plate mail, unless you can hit a seam). This was the usual hand-to-hand dueling weapon for nobility (and upper class commoners) in Europe. The guard on a rapier is usually basket shaped to protect the hand.

The sabre is a similar weapon to a rapier, however the blade is (depending on which version) substantially larger than the rapier and the blade has a slight curve to it. There is a point, but this is NOT a thrusting weapon. One side is edged. This weapon has been used by everyone from cavalry to medium footmen to pirates (arrrrrr!). Sabre is more of a class of sword than an actual weapon: falchions, cutlasses and similar weapons are "sabres." To be a sabre the weapon has to have an enclosed guard (usually shaped like a capital D), the blade must be edged and pointed and the blade must have a curve to it. The guard on a sabre is not only basket shaped but juts down to protect the front of the hand (obscuring the knuckles). Attacks are sweeping and nasty, a usual target for a sabre attack is the head and arms. Stance depends a great deal on variety. When used as a cavalry weapon, the sabre uses the horses momentum and arm strength to strike against the opponent on the head and shoulders. As a medium footmen weapon it can be used in a stance similar to that for the rapier (really only useful in single combat) or more face-on in a "normal" swordfighting stance. Again, it's a fairly light weapon (as swords go), so it's not of much use against heavily armed opponents. The blade varies in length according to version.

The all-purpose "longsword" goes by many names, depending on where you are from. It's length is usually between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 feet. It is edged on both sides and has a point. It's a slashing weapon with a point. This is a "medium" weight weapon. Useful against light to medium armed opponents and semi-useful against heavily armed opponents. Attacks were usually one handed and any part of the body was game. Stance was more face-to-face with both parties switching between side-on and full-frontal attacks. This was probably the most common class of sword in Europe. This is what most people thought of when someone said Sword. EDIT: I should note that the word "longsword" was used as a classification for a sword that was 'longer than X.' X changed depending on location and time period. Bastard Swords (hand-and-a-half) and two-handed sword varieties are rather covered under Remjin's post above (GreatSword). This bit here is in reference to the "small to medium" longswords of the early to late middle ages.

Ahh, the Gladius. Arguably, the sword that changed the world. A short, relatively fat double-edged and pointed sword. Roman centurions were armed with this and a large shield. They would stand with their shields locked and stab forward with the gladius (or sometimes a spear, but this is swords we are talking about). The barbarian hordes the roman's were battling were completely unprepared for formation battles. If one centurion fell, another stepped in to take his place and close the gap. The gladius could be used as a slashing weapon, but only after the shield wall had been broken. The only reason this sword even deserves mention today was because of place in rome's conquest of the ancient world. Rome used the centurions to conquor and the centurions used the gladius. It's also good to note that they cranked these puppies out like hot-cakes. It was as close to mass production as you could get back in the day.

[Lord Liaden]

Achilles' sword in the film Troy looked similar to other typical bronze-age swords, with a leaf-shaped cutting blade near the end. You can see a variety of bronze age swords on this Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_sword). For that matter, the whole Wikipedia entry and directory for swords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword) is informative and fun, and includes everything mentioned on this thread so far.

For sheer bladed coolness, though, IMHO nothing surpasses the katar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katar) in visual distinctiveness or technique of use.

[Lemurion]

I'm going to second the sheer coolness of the Katar and put in a few suggestions of my own.

A personal favorite is the so-called Bastard Sword which should be more properly termed a hand and a half with a bastard blade. Hand and a half because it can be used one or two-handed, and the term bastard blade refers to the fact its used for both cut and thrust rather than being a pure chopping or thrusting weapon like a cutlass or rapier.

Another is the spatha which was a late Roman/Barbarian era single edged broadsword originally used by cavalry.

Also the claymore both in the original "great claymore" two-handed version and the smaller, later basket-hilted broadsword version.

One Medieval sword was the estoc which was a precursor to the rapier, a long and rigid sword with a point but no edge, used against people in armor.

[mikesama]

Some western blades and thier useage.

Zweihander: Zweihander (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/european_two_hand_sword.aspx)

Your big honking sword which was primarily used to break up pike formations. A variety or grips are used allowing for a great deal of flexibiility in it's use.

Bastard Sword: Bastard Sword (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/war_sword.aspx)

Probably the single most widely used sword in the movies this is a primary cutting weapon, but can be used to thrust and for infighting by grabbing the sword midway down the blade and using it in 'half sword' style.

Arming sword Arming Sword (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/ulfberht_sword.aspx)

Generally this is a generic refrence to any 1 handed sword ranging from the blades used by Vikings up to the one handed swords carried into the crusades. Genrally a cutting blade as well and often paried with a shield or buckler.

Side Sword Side Sword (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/saxon_hilt.aspx)

A one handed sword with improved hand protection which was the first blade that was developed for civilian use. Before this point anyone who carried a sword was either a noble or a soldier, with a few exceptions. This is a cut and thrust weapon using bith the point and the edge as the situation demanded.

Rapier: Rapier (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/three_ringed_rapier.aspx)

A totaly civian weapon that functioned as both defense and as 'bling' of it's time. This is primarily a thrusting weapon and delivers very little force with cuts, any cutting done with this weapon was done at either the hand or the face, neither of which would be lethal in most circumstances.

Katzbalger Katzbalger (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/landsknecht_kaltzbalger.aspx)

A german short sword used primarily for close in fighting when pike lines ended up to close to fight well with thier pikes. Primarily used inn short cutting and slashing strokes.

Cutlass: Cutlass (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/pirate_cutlass.aspx)

Short choping sword used primarily on shipdeck where there wasn't room to swing arouna full sized saber or arming sword.

Falchion Falchion (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/falchion_sword.aspx)

Heavy chopping blade use din the middle ages against mail armor.

Calvary Saber: Calvary Saber (http://www.coldsteel.com/88s.html)

Annother tip heavy sword used primarily from horseback. Thrusting was unusual but not impossible bu in general was used ina manner not dis similar to a polo mallet.

Dusack: Dusack (http://ageofchivalry.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DID=105&Product_ID=1975&CATID=37)

Annother German chopping sword that was quite prevelant for a time in Germany.

Smallsword Smallsword (http://www.coldsteel.com/88sms.html)

The sword that modern sport fencing is based on. This weapon was all about the point and could do nothing when used to cut.

[mikesama]

As a note, Rapier stance varied depending on wether or not you were fighting with comething in your off hand and what style you fought in. The guild I belong to has a big rapier tourney at the Golden Gate Park Ren Faire in SF every year. Check out the pictures from the tourney for an idea.

Golden Gate Park Ren Faire (http://www.stmichaelssalle.com/photos/GG06.html)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Some good links there
I've always been fond of the Schiavona (http://www.deltin.net/5173.htm) as well... it's more or less the sword that inspired the various basket hilted backswords that became all the rage in the 17th century

I've always been quite fond of leaf blades too...I ran a somewhat Crowstyle Dark Champions one on one with my ex-GF where she played a crime victim who had become an avatar of the Morrigan, and she used a classic celtic leaf blade short sword.

Yeah...Katana's are overdone...good thread.

[AmadanNaBriona]

As a note, Rapier stance varied depending on wether or not you were fighting with comething in your off hand and what style you fought in. The guild I belong to has a big rapier tourney at the Golden Gate Park Ren Faire in SF every year. Check out the pictures from the tourney for an idea.

Golden Gate Park Ren Faire (http://www.stmichaelssalle.com/photos/GG06.html)

Dude...
Dav is looking a bit pudgy these days.

[mikesama]

Dude...
Dav is looking a bit pudgy these days.

He is more than a bit, he doesn't even have the excust of having his stuffed doublet on. Of corse I am always a bit pudgy so I can't really say much more about it.

[Vondy]

Also -

Tarwar. A huge indian blade.
Sarupati. A sword length version of the kukri.
Jian. A good east asian alternative to the katana. Chinese.

[Remjin]

darnit... tried to rep all those who contributed, but apparently I've repped some of you too recently or something... great stuff.

Something to add to the chinese collection of swords that I forgot...

Tiger Hook Swords

Don't ask me the chinese name, no idea, but they were used in a few kung fu films, including Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.... which, in that one scene between the two ladies, quite a few chinese weapons were used that are pretty interesting. The hooks swords consist of a long straight blade ending in a curved hook, somewhat like a U-turn, sometimes with a slight protrusion at the end... the "handle" had a sort of handguard in the form of an outward facing crescent, and the bottom was another short pointed blade. Many surfaces to attack with, basically, and I believe the blade is even double-edged in at least some versions. The classic trick you see is the hooking of the two hooks together to extend reach, and swinging the other swords around as they're locked together for more reach. =)

[Evil Steve]

Ever since I saw the opening sequence from The Mummy Returns, I've had a fancy for the Khopesh. Egyptian in origin, both the inner and outer curve could be sharpened. The outer curve could slash at an enemy, while the inner curve would be used more for hacking at them.

[L. Marcus]

. . . "Hack and slash" . . . You did that on purpose! :thumbdown

:D

[Evil Steve]

Ug. I didn't even realize I wrote that. The worst puns are always the ones you aren't aware of.

[Yansuf]

[QUOTE=mikesama;1180775]
Bastard Sword: Bastard Sword (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/war_sword.aspx)

Probably the single most widely used sword in the movies this is a primary cutting weapon, but can be used to thrust and for infighting by grabbing the sword midway down the blade and using it in 'half sword' style.

Rapier: Rapier (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/three_ringed_rapier.aspx)

A totaly civian weapon that functioned as both defense and as 'bling' of it's time. This is primarily a thrusting weapon and delivers very little force with cuts, any cutting done with this weapon was done at either the hand or the face, neither of which would be lethal in most circumstances.

Calvary Saber: Calvary Saber (http://www.coldsteel.com/88s.html)

Annother tip heavy sword used primarily from horseback. Thrusting was unusual but not impossible bu in general was used ina manner not dis similar to a polo mallet.

A few comments on the above:

The katana is really a Japanese Hand and a half sword. The katana is designed to cut, while most western bastard swords are really designed to smash more than cut. The reason for this is it is very hard to cut metal armor, it is not so hard to cut laquered bamboo.
Also, very few (if any) ancient "Eastern" sword styles are very good for opposing someone with a shield. For mass battle, sword (or other one hand weapon like axe or mace or assigi) and shield works, polearm works, and spear works; very few other weapons do. Note the Japanese depended on their polearms for mass battle use.

Rapiers were not originally civilian weapons, they became such. The first rapiers were designed to thrust into the weak points of full plate armor.

Calvary sabers were designed for mounted combat, the swing generally works better than the thrust for that. Also, by timing the swing with the gait of the horse, tremendous power was possible.
As an aside, the last calvary saber designed for the US Army (although not the one in use for ceramonial duties) was designed by George Patton, and was primarilly a thrusting weapon.

[Remjin]

A few comments on the above:

The katana is really a Japanese Hand and a half sword. The katana is designed to cut, while most western bastard swords are really designed to smash more than cut. The reason for this is it is very hard to cut metal armor, it is not so hard to cut laquered bamboo.
Also, very few (if any) ancient "Eastern" sword styles are very good for opposing someone with a shield. For mass battle, sword (or other one hand weapon like axe or mace or assigi) and shield works, polearm works, and spear works; very few other weapons do. Note the Japanese depended on their polearms for mass battle use.


From my understanding, there wasn't a lot of shield use in the ancient east. Which is part of why their weapons developed as they did. When shields consisted of bamboo, wicker, and wood... when they were used, which was mostly by low cost troops.

I believe the chinese actually used shield, in combination with spears, which is pretty much what the whole world resorted to at one time or another, it seems. I am hardly a student of history, though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

The japanese used, as a whole, spears, naginata (later), bows, and swords for the most part. Many of the martial arts weapons from the era (sai, nunchaku, sickles, etc.) were just adapted farm implements.

An interesting story about the katana... hopefully I can remember this correctly... for quite some time, they were not all that thick, until they had to fight... geez, I can't remember... someone who used armor.. conquistadors? Well, in any case, so many of their swords broke from those battles that subsequent blades were thicker, and the development of the no-daichi and the katana-(some suffix i can't remember) which were both larger than usual and thicker than usual, even after the aforementioned increases in sword strength.

In any case, that's my understanding from limited reading. Again, I'm no student of history, so feel free to correct my mistakes. =)

[mikesama]

Rapiers were not originally civilian weapons, they became such. The first rapiers were designed to thrust into the weak points of full plate armor.



I think your thinking about an estoc. A rapier by cross section would flex and possibly break if used against armor and you missed a joint (which is quite possible). Also the intricate hand protection of the rapier is the product of civilian use and any good soldier would be wearing hand protection, where as any civilian would need some sort of hand protection as armor was not the thing to wear around town.

Also I have never seen a historical treatise for the rapier that examines the use of the rapier against armor. There are several treatises that examine fighting an armored opponent. The weapons used generally involve mass weapons (axes maces and picks), half sword and morte schlage techniques, pole arms, thrusting daggers and wrestling.

[AmadanNaBriona]

I think your thinking about an estoc. A rapier by cross section would flex and possibly break if used against armor and you missed a joint (which is quite possible). Also the intricate hand protection of the rapier is the product of civilian use and any good soldier would be wearing hand protection, where as any civilian would need some sort of hand protection as armor was not the thing to wear around town.

Also I have never seen a historical treatise for the rapier that examines the use of the rapier against armor. There are several treatises that examine fighting an armored opponent. The weapons used generally involve mass weapons (axes maces and picks), half sword and morte schlage techniques, pole arms, thrusting daggers and wrestling.

A good point to make there. Well done. The rapier, AFAIK, is the direct decendant of the Estoc for precisely the reason that armor was going out of fashion due to the increasing effectiveness of gunpowder weapons. The heavier spine and base of the estoc wasn't needed as much, and the focus turned to increased blade agilty.
The first time I sparred against an estoc I damn near lost my face. A hand and a half estoc in the hands of an experienced kendo practicioner is a scary thing. Once I got use to the wicked speed the tip could achive, I managed to win the bout via a dirty trick... I took advantage of his relative unfamilarity with a thin tipped blade, pushed him back with an offensive then took him off guard by forcing his blade back and getting the point stuck in the fence.
He decided that the estoc was a lot of fun, but his competitive Kendo reflexes shouldn't be used for stage combat (too much chance of doing something from muscle memory and hurting someone). He took up broadsword & sheild instead so he'd have to learn a new reflex set.

[Markdoc]

Probably the single most widely used sword in the movies this is a primary cutting weapon, but can be used to thrust and for infighting by grabbing the sword midway down the blade and using it in 'half sword' style.

Try that with most hand and half swords and you'll be lucky to keep your fingers - few (if any) hand and half swords had the blunted section of blade (properly called a Ricasso). This is a feature of some late medieval greatswords, but although I've seen very many real hand and a half swords, I have never seen one with a ricasso. Hand and half swords are slightly heavier, but not a great deal longer in the blade than simple longswords/broadswords, so a ricasso is not necessary


Rapier: Rapier (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/swords_and_knives/historical/swords/three_ringed_rapier.aspx)

A totaly civian weapon that functioned as both defense and as 'bling' of it's time. This is primarily a thrusting weapon and delivers very little force with cuts, any cutting done with this weapon was done at either the hand or the face, neither of which would be lethal in most circumstances.

Actually, late medieval/early renaissance rapiers are generally much heavier than the modern versions we see more frequently, and a slashing cut with the tip (the top few inches of the blade) was quite capable of cutting throats, removing fingers or dealing disabling and potentially lethal cuts to groin, arm or thigh - as long as your target wasn't armoured. The first book on rapier technique- Opera Nova, written in 1536 by Achillio Marozzo de Bologne, devotes most of its techniques to cutting strokes. Rapiers of the 16th century still had blades that were 1 - 1 1/2 inches wide at the base, and look like lighter versions of the longsword with a slightly elaborated hilt. This *was* a battle weapon and was widely used together with a buckler by spanish soldiers. It wasn't until Saviolo (late 17th century) that the point becomes the preferred method of attack and it's only after this that the rapier gets both a lighter (and shorter) blade - and only after this it becomes basically a dress/duel weapon, before evolving into the smallsword, which essentially replaced the rapier in the 18th century.



The katana is really a Japanese Hand and a half sword. The katana is designed to cut, while most western bastard swords are really designed to smash more than cut. The reason for this is it is very hard to cut metal armor, it is not so hard to cut laquered bamboo.
Also, very few (if any) ancient "Eastern" sword styles are very good for opposing someone with a shield. For mass battle, sword (or other one hand weapon like axe or mace or assigi) and shield works, polearm works, and spear works; very few other weapons do. Note the Japanese depended on their polearms for mass battle use.

Some misconceptions here - the katana is designed for a drawing cut, while European long/broad swords were designed for a percussion cut, but they are both cutting weapons. It's also a common misconception that you can cut metal armour with a sword. You can't, generally. European swords were designed to cut exposed flesh and stab at unarmoured spots. Anyone who just hacks at armour with their sword is as likely to simply break it as to make a hole in the armour.

You can see a variety of tests with reconstructed weapons here
http://www.thehaca.com/Videos/NTCvids/testingbladesandmaterials.htm

and the results are the same as those obtained by the Medieval Heritage society in Britain.

It is true that European swords were more robust than the katana, and would stand up to more abuse on armor (even you can't cut into a helmet, a solid whack upside the head is going to affect the guy wearing it...). However, katanas were also designed to be used against armoured foes - and NO, japanese armour is not made of lacquered bamboo - it's made of steel, and if anything is heavier and clumsier than the European kind. Contemporary japanese writings make it plain that breaking a katana on an enemies armour was not a rare event. Hence the increasing popularity of polearms, both en masse and as individual weapons.

cheers, Mark

[mikesama]

Try that with most hand and half swords and you'll be lucky to keep your fingers - few (if any) hand and half swords had the blunted section of blade (properly called a Ricasso). This is a feature of some late medieval greatswords, but although I've seen very many real hand and a half swords, I have never seen one with a ricasso. Hand and half swords are slightly heavier, but not a great deal longer in the blade than simple longswords/broadswords, so a ricasso is not necessary



Actually, late medieval/early renaissance rapiers are generally much heavier than the modern versions we see more frequently, and a slashing cut with the tip (the top few inches of the blade) was quite capable of cutting throats, removing fingers or dealing disabling and potentially lethal cuts to groin, arm or thigh - as long as your target wasn't armoured. The first book on rapier technique- Opera Nova, written in 1536 by Achillio Marozzo de Bologne, devotes most of its techniques to cutting strokes. Rapiers of the 16th century still had blades that were 1 - 1 1/2 inches wide at the base, and look like lighter versions of the longsword with a slightly elaborated hilt. This *was* a battle weapon and was widely used together with a buckler by spanish soldiers. It wasn't until Saviolo (late 17th century) that the point becomes the preferred method of attack and it's only after this that the rapier gets both a lighter (and shorter) blade - and only after this it becomes basically a dress/duel weapon, before evolving into the smallsword, which essentially replaced the rapier in the 18th century.



True most bastard swords didn't have a ricasso but there are illistrations in Fiore, Meyer, Tallhoffer and others where they are fighting half sword. Most of the blade really wasn't sharpened because you didn't cut with the lower half of the blade so what would be the point in sharpening it and making it more prone to cracking.

The earlier blades you metioned are classified as side swords and yes Marozzo and Silver both wrote about the uses of the weapon.

[Remjin]

Ah, Markdic, thanks for clearing some of that up. I can't rep you yet, though.... I gotta spread it around some, I guess.

Ricasso I'll have to remember instead of my highly technical "the blunt thingie in the middle."

As a whole its interesting to see how much peiple know about this subject, and illuminating on the various evolutions of how some of them developed.

[Markdoc]

True most bastard swords didn't have a ricasso but there are illistrations in Fiore, Meyer, Tallhoffer and others where they are fighting half sword. Most of the blade really wasn't sharpened because you didn't cut with the lower half of the blade so what would be the point in sharpening it and making it more prone to cracking..

Not really. Meyer's and Talhoffer's fechtbüche are online here:
http://www.freifechter.org/cgi-bin/cowman/content/fechtbuecher/fechtbuecher1_0
and the illustrations make it plain that the swords used do *not* have ricassos - nor are they used in ricasso in any of the techniques. You are right - the swords are used in hand and a half (or mostly, two handed) techniques, but they are not bastard swords, but Federschwert ("Feather swords") used for training.
The style taught would have been the same, of course, but it's probbaly where the confusion arises, because Federschwert have a flange at the base of the blade. You can see a real 15th century Federschwert here:http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/swiss-swords/federhilt.jpg and it's clear that the flange is neither designed to be held, nor used to shorten the grip. Confusingly the flange is sometimes referred to as a ricasso - because it's what the true ricasso of the next century's great swords evolved out of.

As for the Fior di Battaglia, the illustrations are much cruder, but again the swords shown are simple longswords or two handed swords. There is no instruction for bastard swords - and no sign of a ricasso at all (not surprising, considering when it was written) and no use of blade grips to shorten the blade. You can get translations here:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/fiore/

The same site also has alink to a nice art gallery, which shows a number of hand and a half swords, but like every one I have seen they are without ricasso and have blades with edges right down to the hilt.

It'd be foolish to say bastard swords never had a ricasso or a bated section above the hilt, since there are so many variations on medieval weapons, but I've visited almost every large collection of medieval weapons in the US, and many of the largest in Europe and I've never seen one, so if they exist at all, they must be very rare.

cheers, Mark

[AlHazred]

I like a surprise to my weapon. Like a Hunting Sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_sword) with a nice pistol built into the hilt - difficult to use properly, but what a shock when you do!

EDIT - Or, in an alternate era and place, a pinfire sword gun (http://www.ruble-enterprises.com/PFsword.htm).

[Markdoc]

I like a surprise to my weapon. Like a Hunting Sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_sword) with a nice pistol built into the hilt - difficult to use properly, but what a shock when you do!

EDIT - Or, in an alternate era and place, a pinfire sword gun (http://www.ruble-enterprises.com/PFsword.htm).

That's actually a pretty good idea - there were lots of these. A couple of weeks ago, my frend John came to Europe for a visit (well, also to get married) and we spent a "boy's week" prior to the wedding. One of the places we went is the national museum here which has a whole display of "combiweapons" from the renaissance. My particular favourite is the beautifully inlaid battleaxe/double flintlock pistol, which actually looks reasonably functional, but there's cane swords, virtually every combination of blade and pistol (including a matchlock/halberd) and some wacky guns (6-barrelled matchlock pistol, anyone?)

Trouble is, if you used something like this in a movie, 90% of the audience would assume you made it up and laugh :D

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

That's actually a pretty good idea - there were lots of these. A couple of weeks ago, my frend John came to Europe for a visit (well, also to get married) and we spent a "boy's week" prior to the wedding. One of the places we went is the national museum here which has a whole display of "combiweapons" from the renaissance. My particular favourite is the beautifully inlaid battleaxe/double flintlock pistol, which actually looks reasonably functional, but there's cane swords, virtually every combination of blade and pistol (including a matchlock/halberd) and some wacky guns (6-barrelled matchlock pistol, anyone?)

Trouble is, if you used something like this in a movie, 90% of the audience would assume you made it up and laugh :D

cheers, Mark

I am so in lust with some of the wacky gunpowder weapons of the era. Gunsmthing was really coming into its own as an artform, and there are a lot of beautiful custom guns in museum sets. I've wanted to build a replica of the double barreled wheellock pistol from the Gratz armory colection for YEARS.

[Bismark]

To add my 2 pennies-worth to the above posts:

'Half-swording' was often done with bog-standard swords (both 1-H and the longer varieties of 'war sword') - the practitioners are usually wearing plate gauntlets (whether or not they have the full set of plate armour), so a ricasso that far up the blade is unnecessary

It is the use of these kind of 'half-swording' techniques that renders the myth that the 1-H sword was just a status symbol during the plate era (because it could not get through the armour) obsolete

You can get the sword tip to move both fast and precisely using this technique - just what you need to strike at the joints in the armour or at the eyeslit etc. I am not saying it is easy because it isn't - not remotely - but it can be done, and that is why it appears in those fighting manuals.

Back on topic of interesting weapons, you could try a pallash (sabre predecessor with a straight blade):

This was usually sharpened on the back edge for only a few centimetres, and often had a blunt section on the leading edge of the blade just in front of the hilt. The quillons curved forwards, and the idea was to put a finger 'in the hole' as it were, to increase the power of a cut.

It was popular with steppe nomads and the like (see Avar, Khazar, Magyar) during the Dark Ages. Eventually replaced by the 'true' sabre, but it made a bit of a comeback in the late Middle Ages and Renaissance period (I have seen one as part of the panoply of a Polish Winged Hussar - who also had a large estoc, a mace and 2 pistols :D)

BTW, do not confuse a true rapier with the civilian or fencing variety - the military ones are actually pretty robust, often hexagonal or pentagonal in cross-section (and incidentally have a different origin to the estoc or tuck - which was usually triangular or square in cross-section).

As mentioned above, rapiers are useless for cutting, but it is rather scary how little force needs to be applied to a thrust with one to penetrate flesh to a frightening depth:eek: (where the user runs the risk of the weapon getting stuck - brownie points to GURPS for the ules to cover this :thumbup: )

[gewing]

Some good links there
I've always been fond of the Schiavona (http://www.deltin.net/5173.htm) as well... it's more or less the sword that inspired the various basket hilted backswords that became all the rage in the 17th century

I've always been quite fond of leaf blades too...I ran a somewhat Crowstyle Dark Champions one on one with my ex-GF where she played a crime victim who had become an avatar of the Morrigan, and she used a classic celtic leaf blade short sword.

Yeah...Katana's are overdone...good thread.



As an alternative to the overdone katana, but filling afaik EXACTLY the same style function, is the German Grosse Messer.

I have always liked the Spanish (iirc) Falcata, a forward curved blade.

The Philipino Barong is a multipurpose utility knife as well as a weapon.

Another kind of fun variation is to use fairly short versions of some of the pole arms. The Glaive, Nagamaki, Naginata, iirc had versions that filled more or less the same role as a Greatsword, particularly once the Halfsword techniqes were used with the Greatsword.




OH, I have always mocked so many of the Role playing games with their swords that were too heavy for normal humans to use for any length of time.
I love the COmputer/XBOX game Morrowwind, but when you look at the weight of some of the swords...:nonp:


Last week I found a reference with a picture of a sword that approached the weight of the Daedric Katana in Morrowind.

It was an executioners sword, I forget what culture, but it was a scimitar style curved blade with a long two handed grip. It apparently weighed
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.
.
wait for it
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69 lbs!!!!!:eek:

[gewing]

Try that with most hand and half swords and you'll be lucky to keep your fingers - few (if any) hand and half swords had the blunted section of blade (properly called a Ricasso). This is a feature of some late medieval greatswords, but although I've seen very many real hand and a half swords, I have never seen one with a ricasso. Hand and half swords are slightly heavier, but not a great deal longer in the blade than simple longswords/broadswords, so a ricasso is not necessary



Actually, late medieval/early renaissance rapiers are generally much heavier than the modern versions we see more frequently, and a slashing cut with the tip (the top few inches of the blade) was quite capable of cutting throats, removing fingers or dealing disabling and potentially lethal cuts to groin, arm or thigh - as long as your target wasn't armoured. The first book on rapier technique- Opera Nova, written in 1536 by Achillio Marozzo de Bologne, devotes most of its techniques to cutting strokes. Rapiers of the 16th century still had blades that were 1 - 1 1/2 inches wide at the base, and look like lighter versions of the longsword with a slightly elaborated hilt. This *was* a battle weapon and was widely used together with a buckler by spanish soldiers. It wasn't until Saviolo (late 17th century) that the point becomes the preferred method of attack and it's only after this that the rapier gets both a lighter (and shorter) blade - and only after this it becomes basically a dress/duel weapon, before evolving into the smallsword, which essentially replaced the rapier in the 18th century.




Some misconceptions here - the katana is designed for a drawing cut, while European long/broad swords were designed for a percussion cut, but they are both cutting weapons. It's also a common misconception that you can cut metal armour with a sword. You can't, generally. European swords were designed to cut exposed flesh and stab at unarmoured spots. Anyone who just hacks at armour with their sword is as likely to simply break it as to make a hole in the armour.

You can see a variety of tests with reconstructed weapons here
http://www.thehaca.com/Videos/NTCvids/testingbladesandmaterials.htm

and the results are the same as those obtained by the Medieval Heritage society in Britain.

It is true that European swords were more robust than the katana, and would stand up to more abuse on armor (even you can't cut into a helmet, a solid whack upside the head is going to affect the guy wearing it...). However, katanas were also designed to be used against armoured foes - and NO, japanese armour is not made of lacquered bamboo - it's made of steel, and if anything is heavier and clumsier than the European kind. Contemporary japanese writings make it plain that breaking a katana on an enemies armour was not a rare event. Hence the increasing popularity of polearms, both en masse and as individual weapons.

cheers, Mark



Sorry I didn't snip, but...

I thought that the steel Japanese armor was a later development, and that many of the earlier armors had some steel, some leather, some bamboo, etc...

[gewing]

True most bastard swords didn't have a ricasso but there are illistrations in Fiore, Meyer, Tallhoffer and others where they are fighting half sword. Most of the blade really wasn't sharpened because you didn't cut with the lower half of the blade so what would be the point in sharpening it and making it more prone to cracking.

The earlier blades you metioned are classified as side swords and yes Marozzo and Silver both wrote about the uses of the weapon.

I'd like to read some of Silver's work.

I have the Tallhoffer Fechtbuch reprint, it is very impressive.

[gewing]

I am so in lust with some of the wacky gunpowder weapons of the era. Gunsmthing was really coming into its own as an artform, and there are a lot of beautiful custom guns in museum sets. I've wanted to build a replica of the double barreled wheellock pistol from the Gratz armory colection for YEARS.


I doubt they would be fun to shoot, but the scottish all metal pistols with the ball on the end of the pistol grip would have worked pretty well as clubs or hammers, At a glance, that is.

[Markdoc]

To add my 2 pennies-worth to the above posts:

'Half-swording' was often done with bog-standard swords (both 1-H and the longer varieties of 'war sword') - the practitioners are usually wearing plate gauntlets (whether or not they have the full set of plate armour), so a ricasso that far up the blade is unnecessary

Ummmm. No. Plate gauntlets - even the most intricate - don't have plate on the *inside* of your hand. You couldn't hold anything if they did. You wore either a leather glove or cloth under your gauntlet. It's possible that you might have chain under cloth, but I'm not aware of any such thing actually existing. So you'd be grabbing the blade with a lightly protected hand and then "jabbing" really hard - which is as good a way of slicing your hand right open as I can imagine.


It is the use of these kind of 'half-swording' techniques that renders the myth that the 1-H sword was just a status symbol during the plate era (because it could not get through the armour) obsolete

You can get the sword tip to move both fast and precisely using this technique - just what you need to strike at the joints in the armour or at the eyeslit etc. I am not saying it is easy because it isn't - not remotely - but it can be done, and that is why it appears in those fighting manuals.

Actually, if you follow the links posted the "hand on blade" technique is *not* used in those manuals. Indeed, I'm unaware of any renaissance manual that teaches such a technique, except for those for greatswords which have a ricasso.

I do agree that the regular broadsword or the bastard sword remained more than just a status weapon - with practice, you can get quite precise with the point, especially since armour contains many places where the tip will naturally slide into something soft and hurty - armpits and groin being the obvious examples - simply by sliding the tip of the blade along the armour. It's why late period swords emphasise the point more and why late period armour spends so much effort trying to block those "slide lines" with knurls and flutes. The bastard sword perhaps became popular because having a second hand on the hilt (not the blade) made this easier.

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

I doubt they would be fun to shoot, but the scottish all metal pistols with the ball on the end of the pistol grip would have worked pretty well as clubs or hammers, At a glance, that is.

I don't know how well they worked, but they were *meant* to be used like that - pistol discharge was normally at very short range, and often used to soften the enemy up immediately before getting stuck in. You might not always have time to stow your pistol and draw a blade.

It's why some of them have that whacking great knob on the end of teh handle.

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

I doubt they would be fun to shoot, but the scottish all metal pistols with the ball on the end of the pistol grip would have worked pretty well as clubs or hammers, At a glance, that is.

I've shot one (a functioning replica... Dixie gunworks IIRC). They have a weird kick to them due to the bannana shaped handle, but they aren't anywhere near as hard to handle as a proper 16th century wheellock... The wheel locks I've fired are all frickin huge (for pistols, anyway... around .70 cal), and the only thing I can compare them to is a sawed off shotgun... The first time I got to fire one, I nearly brained myself. That earlier style was usually a cavalry sidearm, the kind used by scots Border Reivers and german Schwartzritiers (sp?), and I didn't realize that they're often fired two handed.

[AmadanNaBriona]

I don't know how well they worked, but they were *meant* to be used like that - pistol discharge was normally at very short range, and often used to soften the enemy up immediately before getting stuck in. You might not always have time to stow your pistol and draw a blade.

It's why some of them have that whacking great knob on the end of teh handle.

cheers, Mark

Yep. Exactly right.

[Markdoc]

Sorry I didn't snip, but...

I thought that the steel Japanese armor was a later development, and that many of the earlier armors had some steel, some leather, some bamboo, etc...

Leather armour yes - hardened lacquered leather for light troops stayed in fashion for a long time. But then hardened leather stayed in fashion in Europe too, for the same reason - it was relatively cheap.

I know of at least one suit of bamboo armour, but it was for ceremonial use (I've also seen reference to european knightly armour made from paper maché, for the same purpose). But as far as we know samurai didn't go into battle in bamboo armour any more than French knights did in plate made of paper.

The earliest japanese armour we have copies of are called tankô or "small armour" (sometimes translated "short armour"). They are simple cuirasses made of several laced metal plates and date back to the 5th or 6th century (ie: well before the samurai arose). The older Yamato era armours haven't survived, but grave carvings of them look a bit like tankô, so they are probably also metal (could be hardened leather: it's hard to say from a crude stone carving :))

Hardened leather was used to make some of the fantastic crests on helmets, but the bowl of the helmet is always metal, apart from ceremonial parade helmets which are made of very light leather and paper.

Bamboo was used to make shields for sieges, stakes for archers and pretty much everything else you can imagine - just not armour.

cheers, Mark

[Bismark]

Ummmm. No. Plate gauntlets - even the most intricate - don't have plate on the *inside* of your hand. You couldn't hold anything if they did. You wore either a leather glove or cloth under your gauntlet. It's possible that you might have chain under cloth, but I'm not aware of any such thing actually existing. So you'd be grabbing the blade with a lightly protected hand and then "jabbing" really hard - which is as good a way of slicing your hand right open as I can imagine.



Actually, if you follow the links posted the "hand on blade" technique is *not* used in those manuals. Indeed, I'm unaware of any renaissance manual that teaches such a technique, except for those for greatswords which have a ricasso.

I do agree that the regular broadsword or the bastard sword remained more than just a status weapon - with practice, you can get quite precise with the point, especially since armour contains many places where the tip will naturally slide into something soft and hurty - armpits and groin being the obvious examples - simply by sliding the tip of the blade along the armour. It's why late period swords emphasise the point more and why late period armour spends so much effort trying to block those "slide lines" with knurls and flutes. The bastard sword perhaps became popular because having a second hand on the hilt (not the blade) made this easier.

cheers, Mark

Cheers Mark - I stand corrected... [:o]

BTW, where the Japanese tankô is concerned - the stuff I saw (which was the top end of the market, as it were) looked like a crude analogue of the Roman lorica segmentata - in bronze.

Question for you (as you appear to know your stuff) - when did Japan come out of the Bronze Age? - I heard it was about 300AD [just curious...]

Back to the original thread topic - try this for an exotic sword (exotic because it was not exactly popular or widespread judging by the paucity of surviving examples): the flammard (1-H analogue of the flamberge). Wavy-edged blade, sometimes with an early pattern basket hilt as well.

[L. Marcus]

Japan never had a Bronze Age. The went from Stone straight to Iron.

[Markdoc]

Question for you (as you appear to know your stuff) - when did Japan come out of the Bronze Age? - I heard it was about 300AD [just curious...]


Japan never had a Bronze Age. The went from Stone straight to Iron.

That's right. The Yayoi period (c. 300 BC - AD 300 AD) is sometimes referred to as the Japanese bronze age, since bronze items start appearing then - but they seem to have been mostly imported. However the Japanese switched over to iron very rapidly during this era. The reason is probably that Japan has no natural source of tin: therefore, no bronze. They had plenty of iron, though.

cheers, Mark

[gewing]

I don't know how well they worked, but they were *meant* to be used like that - pistol discharge was normally at very short range, and often used to soften the enemy up immediately before getting stuck in. You might not always have time to stow your pistol and draw a blade.

It's why some of them have that whacking great knob on the end of teh handle.

cheers, Mark



That was kind of what I figured. :eg:

[Maelstrom]

I love the flamberge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamberge) -- a zweihander with a blade that was serpentine for some of the length, like a kris.

Also, the qaddara (http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16767&d=1067716429) -- IIRC, with a slightly curving damascene blade and an ivory teardrop handle, on the one I handled.