Random powers?

[Robyn]

It seems to me that, every time there's a character posted whose powers do not all share a single unifying Special Effect, someone says "Oh, they must have been a random powers . . . "

Is it so unbelievable that someone might want to play a character with an assortment of powers that neither derive from the same source, nor "play well together"?

[Hyper-Man]

It seems to me that, every time there's a character posted whose powers do not all share a single unifying Special Effect, someone says "Oh, they must have been a random powers . . . "

Is it so unbelievable that someone might want to play a character with an assortment of powers that neither derive from the same source, nor "play well together"?

Seems like a silly complaint. Qualifying to be put into an EC framework is one thing but single sfx's can fit any set of powers. For an example take a look at the one that started it all: Superman.

[ghost-angel]

It seems to me that, every time there's a character posted whose powers do not all share a single unifying Special Effect, someone says "Oh, they must have been a random powers . . . "

Is it so unbelievable that someone might want to play a character with an assortment of powers that neither derive from the same source, nor "play well together"?

Want some cheese with that?


though I really don't know what you mean by "play well together" because how they play at all is decide when the Player makes in game choices.

[Hugh Neilson]

Rocketed to earth from his distant, dying planet after being orphaned by a petty criminal, Our Hero was adopted by a Himalayan monk who tutored him in the ways of the Mystic Arts and mysterious techniques of hand to hand combat until, on his 18th birthday, he was struck by lightning, gifted a powerful weapon by mysterious Guardians of the Multiverse, bitten by a radioactive wombat and bombarded by Cosmic Rays, Gamma Rays, Vita-Rays, Ray-Rays and Antimatter Rays. Building himself a suit of powered armor, Our Hero now battles for Truth, Justice and Hostess Fruit Pies...

Yeah, maybe a central theme isn't such a bad idea.

Anyone remember Golden Heroes? You rolled for your powers, but you then had to design a backstory that reasonably encompassed them. Any that didn't fit, didn't stay.

[Cancer]

And here I thought this was going to be necromancy of the thread that brought us Megascale Swinging.

[Hyper-Man]

And here I thought this was going to be necromancy of the thread that brought us Megascale Swinging.

Well, isn't that just a space elevator?

[Robyn]

Want some cheese with that?

That's my line . . . though I was too polite to say it like that.

If people want to be so "Noone could have wanted to play a character like that!" about it, let them step up and explain why.


though I really don't know what you mean by "play well together" because how they play at all is decide when the Player makes in game choices.

Let's say, as an example (and borrowing jkwleisemann's vision (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1178939&postcount=31) of a character whose powers are totally unconnected to each other), that we have a brilliant scientist:

Who ends up being able to turn into stone, unleash magical bursts from his nostrils, has super-hearing, a regeneration factor, +30 COM, and the ability to dissociate into mist.

Now, on the surface of it, no more than two or three of these powers will be applicable to any general type of situation. Also, abilities such as the turning into stone probably won't combine very well with the turning into mist.

[transmetahuman]

It seems to me that, every time there's a character posted whose powers do not all share a single unifying Special Effect, someone says "Oh, they must have been a random powers . . . "

Is it so unbelievable that someone might want to play a character with an assortment of powers that neither derive from the same source, nor "play well together"?
Spider-Man: spider-like strength and clinging - of course. Mechanical web-shooters - okay, that fits. Spider-trackers - uh, well, okay, he has a dual theme already: spider stuff and boy genius... plus the plots really need it. Danger sense??? Uhm, uhhh... [well, i really really pictured him bouncing around like a jumping jack in combat, he doesn't really have any kind of invulnerability, he needs the edge to survive] ...Okay, triple theme: spider stuff, boy genius stuff, and jumping jack in combat stuff.

POWERED ARMOR??????????

Well, I love Spider-Man. I could only pray that someone in a game I run comes up with a character that works so well. So, I'm not going to be inflexible about this stuff... but too much of it, and it just feels... yeah, cheesy.

[ghost-angel]

That's my line . . . though I was too polite to say it like that.

If people want to be so "Noone could have wanted to play a character like that!" about it, let them step up and explain why.



Let's say, as an example (and borrowing jkwleisemann's vision (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1178939&postcount=31) of a character whose powers are totally unconnected to each other), that we have a brilliant scientist:

Who ends up being able to turn into stone, unleash magical bursts from his nostrils, has super-hearing, a regeneration factor, +30 COM, and the ability to dissociate into mist.

Now, on the surface of it, no more than two or three of these powers will be applicable to any general type of situation. Also, abilities such as the turning into stone probably won't combine very well with the turning into mist.

So your general statement was prompted from a specific issue.

I'm definitely not for Random Power Generation where you roll from a list, or a are given from a hat.

But that's not the tone your post conveyed. Again, your grasp, or complete lack there of, of the English language has caused a miscommunication of what you intended and what you wrote.

There are characters with rather diversified power sets that work together, maybe it isn't a Perfect Theme and a few step outside the bounds of the Exact Vision, but nothing in life is that coherent. Those I rarely take issue with.

Get extremely diversified, as in Hugh's post, and really what your saying it "I couldn't think of anything." But I've personally never seen a character like that in an actual game. Maybe others have.

[David Johnston]

It seems to me that, every time there's a character posted whose powers do not all share a single unifying Special Effect, someone says "Oh, they must have been a random powers . . . "

Is it so unbelievable that someone might want to play a character with an assortment of powers that neither derive from the same source, nor "play well together"?

No. But I still hate characters who have no thematic unity even though I quite enjoy rolling up V&V characters. Finding the thematic unity in a semi-random set of rolls is part of the appeal.

[Hugh Neilson]

Spider-Man: spider-like strength and clinging - of course. Mechanical web-shooters - okay, that fits. Spider-trackers - uh, well, okay, he has a dual theme already: spider stuff and boy genius... plus the plots really need it. Danger sense??? Uhm, uhhh... [well, i really really pictured him bouncing around like a jumping jack in combat, he doesn't really have any kind of invulnerability, he needs the edge to survive] ...Okay, triple theme: spider stuff, boy genius stuff, and jumping jack in combat stuff.

I often wonder how many GM's would have allowed Spider Man in the absence of the published character.


MECHANICAL web shooters? How did he get MECHANICAL web shooters from being bitten by a radioactive spider? Stop trying to point whore. Either shave the points somewhere else, find a limitation appropriate to the character with NATURAL spiderpowers, or drop the dice in the Entangle. hmph! MECHANICAL web shooters...

SPIDER SENSE! What the %#% is a SPIDER SENSE?!?! Spiders don't have special senses. Non only am I not allowing that in your Spider Powers EC, I'm not allowing it, period. Spiders don't have special senses. You can use the points to buy off those MECHANICAL web shooters (thought I forgot about those, didn't you?). And use the points left over to buy some REAL spider powers. Like extra limbs!

Honestly, Stan, if you can't do better than THIS, you're not playing in my game!


POWERED ARMOR??????????

Hey, after 40+ years of weekly play, anyone's entitled to a radiation accident, don't you think? ;)

[Lemurion]

Spider-Man: spider-like strength and clinging - of course. Mechanical web-shooters - okay, that fits. Spider-trackers - uh, well, okay, he has a dual theme already: spider stuff and boy genius... plus the plots really need it. Danger sense??? Uhm, uhhh... [well, i really really pictured him bouncing around like a jumping jack in combat, he doesn't really have any kind of invulnerability, he needs the edge to survive] ...Okay, triple theme: spider stuff, boy genius stuff, and jumping jack in combat stuff.

POWERED ARMOR??????????

Well, I love Spider-Man. I could only pray that someone in a game I run comes up with a character that works so well. So, I'm not going to be inflexible about this stuff... but too much of it, and it just feels... yeah, cheesy.

Well, he got the powered armor from Tony Stark and it sounds like he'll be losing it once they finally finish Civil War. So I think it counts as just a plot device.

[ghost-angel]

How about a Mystic character whose main weapon is a .38 Pistol?

[CraterMaker]

Hey, one of the coolest mentalist characters I've seen had Dirty Infighting...


.... and used it regularly. Once he went after another mentalist with a broken bottle.....

....when they fell into a dumpster...

And won.

...and allll the other superheroes took a step back...

-CraterMaker

[secretID]

I haven't yet written up the first character idea I had: his powers are all foci, magical and technological, collected from the trophy room of his dimension-hopping hero parent. He's a checklist, and a key element is that he's a hodgepodge who looks ridiculous (sci-fi sensory helmet, samurai armor, etc.).

[Robyn]

So your general statement was prompted from a specific issue.

No it wasn't! Read my original post again:


It seems to me that, every time there's a character posted

I've been observing this happening for a long time.


I'm definitely not for Random Power Generation where you roll from a list, or a are given from a hat.

That was just one example - as I stated.


Again, your grasp, or complete lack there of, of the English language has caused a miscommunication of what you intended and what you wrote.

No, your grasp, or complete lack there of, of what I intended has caused a gap between what I wrote and what you presume I meant by it.

The "straw that broke the camel's back", as it were, was this (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1189238#1189238) post. No single post caused me to create this thread, nor was I thinking of any specific post, I was just tired of hearing it so often :p

[Killer Shrike]

MODERATOR: If this turns into yet another Robyn thread that boils over, lockage will ensue.

Lets keep it civil, and if that isn't possible then take the high path and don't respond.

Thanx!

[ghost-angel]

I obviously don't share the sentiment you do over the idea of mixed powers/ideas.

[Robyn]

I'll make this as thorough as possible, so as to get it over with and leave nothing unexplained. This is why I posted the thread:
I've read a lot of old threads and the general impression I've received, from many posts, is that there's some ill feeling towards powers that "don't fit together" as being "random". I found the specific reasons why random in particular would evoke so many bad memories, there were other heroic RPG's that did it that way, but nothing to explain the association back there from powers that didn't fit together. (Hence my choice of subject line: a question mark to cast doubt on whether these really were "random" powers.) With no context, it seemed like the concept was being discriminated against, and I'm opposed to unfairness where it seems undeserved. So, at some point, I simply felt I had to speak out, and ask if it was really so bad?


I obviously don't share the sentiment you do over the idea of mixed powers/ideas.

This is, in a way, the sort of thing I was seeing. To question the idea that mixed powers/ideas were bad, means that I have sentiments for them?

I still don't understand how or why the baseline was displaced. I mean, if we've got to actively possess fond remembrances of it just to doubt that it's evil, why are we so sure that it's bad, in the first place?

[Robyn]

I often wonder how many GM's would have allowed Spider Man in the absence of the published character.

MECHANICAL web shooters? How did he get MECHANICAL web shooters from being bitten by a radioactive spider?

This was, incidentally, one of my own initial reactions upon first learning about Spider-Man :)

[ghost-angel]

This is, in a way, the sort of thing I was seeing. To question the idea that mixed powers/ideas were bad, means that I have sentiments for them?

From your initial post I gathered your sentiment was you found it "unbelievable that someone would want to play such a character."

[Zed-F]

How about a Mystic character whose main weapon is a .38 Pistol?

I have a mystic character whose main weapon is a ritual combat shotgun. Does that count? :D

[Zed-F]

I don't care whether a character's powers are seemingly random and don't work well together, though an EC whose powers don't flow from a common SFX is another matter (and specifically prohibited by the rules.) What I care about is a character whose background justifies those powers in a way that doesn't ask me to hang my disbelief from the neck rather than just suspending it.

If character A has a bunch of nutty powers because he's lifted a bunch of gadgets from his superheroic parents' trophy room, that's one thing. If he wants to have the following, purely as a result of a single lab accident:

Who ends up being able to turn into stone, unleash magical bursts from his nostrils, has super-hearing, a regeneration factor, +30 COM, and the ability to dissociate into mist.
Sorry, no, that doesn't fly. There's no story there, no reason for me to believe that's plausible. And any story I could create to justify that would reek of contrivance.

[Robyn]

From your initial post I gathered your sentiment was you found it "unbelievable that someone would want to play such a character."

That was one of my suspicions about what common thread might be tying everything together . . . not that everyone disliked it so strongly, which I hadn't found any cause for, but perhaps that it was simply a difference in play style, where everyone's preference was for characters with a single unifying SFX or powers that worked (very well) in combination with each other, and simply couldn't imagine anyone wanting to play anything else.


There's no story there, no reason for me to believe that's plausible. And any story I could create to justify that would reek of contrivance.

I sense a story-writing challenge coming soon . . . :eg:

[transmetahuman]

I haven't yet written up the first character idea I had: his powers are all foci, magical and technological, collected from the trophy room of his dimension-hopping hero parent. He's a checklist, and a key element is that he's a hodgepodge who looks ridiculous (sci-fi sensory helmet, samurai armor, etc.).
Haha, I like this. :) Totally works for me, especially if the player comes up with the stories about each villain they came from. Hmmmm...

[SpydirShellX]

I think that variety in character powers makes for a more interesting character...
For example, in my campain -
There is a illusionist character that is actually the Gadgeteer since he decided to compensate for a normally fragile body with technology. He had his 'power' and decided it wasn't enough to fight crime with so he found himself a contact to supply him with supertech.
The brick is a character that walks through walls and takes on aspects of the wall he walks through... he also can send and transmit radio as well as disarm bombs with a touch (and for that matter is more intellegent than the mentalist/gadgeteer).


I think that 'themed' powers are great... unfortiantly they tend to follow the theme. A fire character tends to be a hot-head and tends to use a certain set of powers.
Personally I think it makes a character a lot more interesting if they have a few powers in their powerset that don't belong.

For villains it makes the characters try to spend time learning to fight them rather than making their moves instantly predictable when they reveal their name (which always is a dead giveaway to their powers).
For characters, if gives them the bit of extra definition - what aspect of their power would that character realize that most people wouldn't think of using. This isn't always entirely random.

Also think about characters that have abilities that don't neccessarily fit, but they pull off anyway. Wolverine for example... metal skeleton and claws plus mutant regeneration. Those would not normally be thought of together. A lot of gadgeteers have a real grab-bag of powers. Batman has any equipment he can put the word Bat in front of.

Really, a complex back story can explain almost any mish-mash of powers... just make it long enough. Contrivance is just a coincidence without the connections from A to B.

[transmetahuman]

The "straw that broke the camel's back", as it were, was this (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1189238#1189238) post. No single post caused me to create this thread, nor was I thinking of any specific post, I was just tired of hearing it so often :p
Well, it did sound like it came from a random table, without any context to judge otherwise. I didn't even say that I disapproved - though, yeah, the context probably implied it. My preference is for thematically solid characters, and I might not have let Spider-Man into a game if some player had invented him first (though I'm totally fine with Trophy Checklist Man, go figure). Some of it is a suspension-of-disbelief issue (yes, in a game where people can turn into animate sandpiles). I also find the limits and boundaries of powers to be one of the most interesting aspects of them.

And maybe I'll think more about letting a scattershot character into a game next time (not that it's ever come up before; IME most people like strong themes too), because you made me think about this issue and why I have the preferences I do, and we might lose out on a cool character because of my knee-jerk reaction.

[ghost-angel]

Batman has any equipment he can put the word Bat in front of.

"It's going to be a long night of investigation Robin, fire up the Bat Espresso Machine, make my first a double."

[secretID]

Haha, I like this. :) Totally works for me, especially if the player comes up with the stories about each villain they came from. Hmmmm...
I was thinking a lot of points in unknown hunteds, and unknown bad rep popping up unexpectedly when some item or device is exhibited.

[Trained Chicken]

Rocketed to earth from his distant, dying planet after being orphaned by a petty criminal, Our Hero was adopted by a Himalayan monk who tutored him in the ways of the Mystic Arts and mysterious techniques of hand to hand combat until, on his 18th birthday, he was struck by lightning, gifted a powerful weapon by mysterious Guardians of the Multiverse, bitten by a radioactive wombat and bombarded by Cosmic Rays, Gamma Rays, Vita-Rays, Ray-Rays and Antimatter Rays. Building himself a suit of powered armor, Our Hero now battles for Truth, Justice and Hostess Fruit Pies...

Yeah, maybe a central theme isn't such a bad idea.

Sounds like you've sat accross the table from a few 13 year olds.


Anyone remember Golden Heroes? You rolled for your powers, but you then had to design a backstory that reasonably encompassed them. Any that didn't fit, didn't stay.

Wow, now there's a cool idea. I've never heard of, nor thought of, that.


And here I thought this was going to be necromancy of the thread that brought us Megascale Swinging.

I'll be damned if that's my legacy to the HERO System.

[Lightning91]

Seems to me, more then a few comic characters have powers from multiple sources:

Wolverine - Mutant healer (mutant power), metal skeleton (technological)
Dr. Doom - Powered armor (technological), sorcery (magic)
Reed Richards - stretching (radiation accident), technological VPP
Shadowkat - Intangibility (mutant), nija training (awesome mini-series)
Giantman - Growth, Talking to ants
Legion of Superheroes - Everyone gets a membership card and a Flight ring
etc...

Why not allow the disjointed powers, with or without an explanation. If no explanation is given, develop the story and reveal it through game-play.

[AlHazred]

To some extent, characters focused too strongly on one element are boring. You need variety to give a character spice - not too much, maybe, but enough. And in that regard, I like a random system for inspiration. I used to run V&V and I had players who liked the random generation system for precisely that reason.

In any case, let's look at Martian Manhunter - what does his list of powers contain? Telepathy, Desolidification, Flight, Super-Strength, Shape Shift, Life Support, etc. What links these powers together? "Uh... he's a Martian - so there!" I'd never really allow this in my games - you'd need to be a little more centered.

[transmetahuman]

Seems to me, more then a few comic characters have powers from multiple sources:

Wolverine - Mutant healer (mutant power), metal skeleton (technological)
Dr. Doom - Powered armor (technological), sorcery (magic)
Reed Richards - stretching (radiation accident), technological VPP
Shadowkat - Intangibility (mutant), nija training (awesome mini-series)
Giantman - Growth, Talking to ants
Legion of Superheroes - Everyone gets a membership card and a Flight ring
etc...

Why not allow the disjointed powers, with or without an explanation. If no explanation is given, develop the story and reveal it through game-play.Wolverine's regeneration-that-also-grants-hyperkeen-senses bothers me more than the skeleton. And don't forget:

Superman - x-ray vision? heat vision?

Thor - extradimensional travel?

Wonder Woman - why not give her some mythological items of power instead of some random lasso that compels truth? Though I guess "bondage" was a central theme for her. And how the heck does a reclusive Amazonian society develop an invisible aerospace industry?

All the bizarre stuff the Flash can do by "vibrating". Would any GM let a player justify desolid because he's a speedster, if the Flash hadn't been around?

And of course the ultimate grab-bag, the Martian Manhunter...

Seems like almost all the really big iconic supers from the early years of comics had some pretty "random" powers.

[wcw43921]

No. But I still hate characters who have no thematic unity even though I quite enjoy rolling up V&V characters. Finding the thematic unity in a semi-random set of rolls is part of the appeal.

My sentiments exactly. When I ran a Villains & Vigilantes campaign many years ago, one of my players had a character who had Vibratory Powers (Energy Blast, moving through walls, defense capability, destroy things by touch) Magnetic Powers (attract metal through magnetism) and Teleportation (travel from one place to another without crossing the intervening distance). While I didn't discuss with him how his powers worked, I came up for myself that they all stemmed from the specific ability to cause all his molecules to come apart and reassemble. That was how he was able to generate vibrations (through agitating his molecules), teleport (disintegrating, then reintegrating in another place), and use magnetism (that's what kept his molecules together).

With a little imagination, you can explain any supposedly "random" set of powers.

[wcw43921]

Wolverine's regeneration-that-also-grants-hyperkeen-senses bothers me more than the skeleton.

I was thinking that animal-keen senses and regeneration could be tied into one critical factor--survival. They allow Wolverine to track any prey, evade any predator, and heal from any injury or disease. All of which give him the ability to survive no matter what the enviroment or the odds against him.



Superman - x-ray vision? heat vision?

John Byrne did a great job of explaining X-ray vision in an interview he gave in the buildup to the Man Of Steel mini-series (the post-Crisis reboot of Superman). He described it as using "his telescopic and microscopic vision in combination to focus past an object's atomic structure they a camera focuses past the dust on the lens."

He also explained heat vision as "a by-product of all that solar radiation he's built up." Probably not so adequate for a picky GM. But I do remember an episode of The Adventures Of Superman where George Reeves version of the character melts a horseshoe with his X-ray vision. So heat vision may have been begun in the comics as "spun-off" from that.


Thor - extradimensional travel?

May have been an alternate method of getting back and forth to Asgard. Anyway, he's THE MIGHTY THOR. The God Of Thunder. He's one of the strongest characters in his universe, and his hammer can crack mountains like they were walnuts. He is, as Douglas Adams put it, "a man you only dare cross with a team of Sherpas."

And you want to tell him he can't travel extradimensionally? Good. Luck. How do I get in touch with your next of kin?


Wonder Woman - why not give her some mythological items of power instead of some random lasso that compels truth?

Because that's what the writer decided?

Sorry--that's the best I got. I don't know enough about the origins of the lasso. Would have been nifty if it were made out of the Golden Fleece. But for myself, I never had a problem with it.


And how the heck does a reclusive Amazonian society develop an invisible aerospace industry?

No men around to keep them from realizing their full potential. Amazon society was always depicted as being more advanced and enlightened than Man's World, so they were much farther along in technology and elsewhere.



All the bizarre stuff the Flash can do by "vibrating". Would any GM let a player justify desolid because he's a speedster, if the Flash hadn't been around?

If The Flash can be super-fast, so are his molecules. It would take practice, but I could see a speedster being able to generate vibrations, and vibrating his molecules fast enough to slip through the spaces between other molecules. Again, a picky GM might not allow it, but to my mind it isn't that difficult to accept.


And of course the ultimate grab-bag, the Martian Manhunter...


My understanding is that in the DC Universe, Martians were a more ancient race than humans. You could say that being ancient, they were more fully "evolved" in mind and body, with both more integrated than with humans. Martians can be super-strong, shapeshift, fly, and desolidify themselves because their minds tell their bodies that they can.

I hope those explanations work for you.

[jkwleisemann]

Sorry, no, that doesn't fly. There's no story there, no reason for me to believe that's plausible. And any story I could create to justify that would reek of contrivance.
Which, really, is what my point was when I put it together. When that post was made, it was my nightmare of what would happen in a game where I started playing a normal/skilled character (the brilliant scientist)... who ended up with random powers shortly into the campaign (the unintelligible hodgepodge of results that were listed).

So, really, that not flying was the point.

As to the point of the thread... I think it's just that, when you see such wildly disparate powers as some folks have, you start to think 'random power generator.' I've already had nightmare flashbacks to Heroes Unlimited while reading some writeups. :D

Now, does everything have to have a unified SFX? Of course not! I like the mentalist who straps on power armor to keep from getting pulped on the battlefield, personally.

But when you get (and, sadly, this is from honest-to-goodness play experience) a character with:

The ability to turn into metal.
Superspeed.
Telepathy.
And animalistic totem-strengths of the Bear....

I defy you to come up with any way to explain that sort of illogic without random tables.

Though, in defense of the random tables in Champions, they're not actually half-bad in my experience.

[Robyn]

But when you get (and, sadly, this is from honest-to-goodness play experience) a character with:

The ability to turn into metal.
Superspeed.
Telepathy.
And animalistic totem-strengths of the Bear....

I defy you to come up with any way to explain that sort of illogic without random tables.

Sounds like another story challenge to me :D

[SpydirShellX]

The ability to turn into metal.
Superspeed.
Telepathy.
And animalistic totem-strengths of the Bear....

I defy you to come up with any way to explain that sort of illogic without random tables.

Loki decided to have fun with a few of the other Patheons. So taking a note from Zeus's book, he tricked Mercury into mating with a female bear totem of the American Indians. The offspring (our resultant here), due to the powers of he two parents became shaman of his tribe.
Thus the character can turn into metal (pun of the name of Mercury)
Has superspeed from his father, the messenger god.
Telepathy from his training as a shaman
and Bear-totem from his mother.

Tada! Think of the family reunions...

[Kirby]

Is it so unbelievable that someone might want to play a character with an assortment of powers that neither derive from the same source, nor "play well together"?I personally have no problem with this and am glad to see that there are a few others who don't either. I do like a story to go with them (John was a mutant who learned sorcery, Jane was a mentalist who could turn invisible, etc.) and even if the PC has no good story, he can end up calling himself Enigma, Anomaly, Random, Mr. E., etc to "fill the name requirement" some seem to have.

I wonder how many people would freak if Firewing had a physical weapon he could only use on the ground?

[jkwleisemann]

Loki decided to have fun with a few of the other Patheons. So taking a note from Zeus's book, he tricked Mercury into mating with a female bear totem of the American Indians. The offspring (our resultant here), due to the powers of he two parents became shaman of his tribe.
Thus the character can turn into metal (pun of the name of Mercury)
Has superspeed from his father, the messenger god.
Telepathy from his training as a shaman
and Bear-totem from his mother.

Tada! Think of the family reunions...
*gives SpydirShellX the rep-cookie of 'But Was it Worth It?'*

Still the sort of character I cringe at seeing. :p

[ghost-angel]

I personally have no problem with this and am glad to see that there are a few others who don't either. I do like a story to go with them (John was a mutant who learned sorcery, Jane was a mentalist who could turn invisible, etc.) and even if the PC has no good story, he can end up calling himself Enigma, Anomaly, Random, Mr. E., etc to "fill the name requirement" some seem to have.

I wonder how many people would freak if Firewing had a physical weapon he could only use on the ground?

Oddly, or maybe not so oddly, my Mystic Gadgeteer is called Enigma.

[transmetahuman]

No men around to keep them from realizing their full potential. Amazon society was always depicted as being more advanced and enlightened than Man's World, so they were much farther along in technology and elsewhere.The point was more about the way that the Amazons were hiding from the rest of the world, on a not-very-big island. Of course, in comics, any half-gifted techie can develop an entire complex industry if she has a few spare hours, so even though the Amazons would have almost no use for an aerospace industry until Steve Whatshisname crashed/floated in/whatever, I guess someone could whip one up on the spot.


If The Flash can be super-fast, so are his molecules. It would take practice, but I could see a speedster being able to generate vibrations, and vibrating his molecules fast enough to slip through the spaces between other molecules. Again, a picky GM might not allow it, but to my mind it isn't that difficult to accept. I don't care how fast or at what frequency it's vibrating at, solids don't act that way. I could see him running through walls via vibration if he left big holes or something, maybe. I'm not going into the comic-book physics issue here, though; the point is that desolid is a really ridiculous stretch of the concept of speedster (though now taken for granted, because of the Flash comics).

I wasn't really objecting to the things I listed, though; more pointing out specific examples that I as a GM would probably have frowned on if Wonder Woman, Flash, etc. had been invented by a player in a game of mine rather than being established comics characters. My last post was really a way of saying that my comfort level in this area might be loosening up, not an argument against the Flash.


I personally have no problem with this and am glad to see that there are a few others who don't either. I do like a story to go with them (John was a mutant who learned sorcery, Jane was a mentalist who could turn invisible, etc.) and even if the PC has no good story, he can end up calling himself Enigma, Anomaly, Random, Mr. E., etc to "fill the name requirement" some seem to have.I've got no problem at all with "archetype-buster" characters. And I think I can start to deal with characters whose story/history gives a logical (or just cool) explanation for disparate powers, if that history doesn't seem overly contrived to justify someone who wants Every Cool Power He Can Think Of. I don't think I wanna loosen up quite that far.

I guess it comes down to: Older comics, and the characters they created, made even less sense than modern ones. Modern readers and gamers (including myself) have come to expect stuff that isn't quite so hard on the suspension-of-disbelief, with a little more internal consistency. So the characters with the grab-bag of powers have to work for it harder.

[Doug McCrae]

Anyone remember Golden Heroes? You rolled for your powers, but you then had to design a backstory that reasonably encompassed them. Any that didn't fit, didn't stay.The problem was the players could just use 'multi origins' to justify every power. For example a mutant who trained to be an expert swordsman then had a cybernetic arm grafted.

[SpydirShellX]

The problem was the players could just use 'multi origins' to justify every power. For example a mutant who trained to be an expert swordsman then had a cybernetic arm grafted.

I see nothing wrong with that particular story - especially if the character then has a vendetta against the person who cut off his arm.

Frankly, Technology and Training can go along with almost any backstory.

However, powers cosmic, avatar or mystic powers tend not to work well with others. Powers cosmic and avatar powers generally should be powerful enough in themselves that the user doesn't need stopgaps like martial arts training or technology. Even if they are gifted at some point later in the character's life, they usually go to somebody who is otherwise normal (not trained or otherwise a super). The only exception to that I can think of is the Phoenix/Jean Gray - something that I wouldn't allow in my game. Mystic Powers tend to not work well with technology and tend to require study that would go in place of martial arts training. Maybe a techno-mage or martial artist mystic, but both would require some more backstory than most.

As I've said earlier, I like the multiple source of powers idea because it allows for more though in playing the character / character design. However, I want that type of thought to go into the character.

[McCoy]

And of course the ultimate grab-bag, the Martian Manhunter...

Seems like almost all the really big iconic supers from the early years of comics had some pretty "random" powers.
Or lazy editors.

[McCoy]

How about a Mystic character whose main weapon is a .38 Pistol?Or a character whose main weapon is a bullwhip, uses a pistol for backup, yet somehow ia able to tap into the powers of mystic artifacts?

Lile Indiana Jones.

[MisterD]

Would I be able to post links to my characters on my site here and thread readers can see if I stick to concept?

[Adventus]

Seems to me, more then a few comic characters have powers from multiple sources:

Wolverine - Mutant healer (mutant power), metal skeleton (technological)
Dr. Doom - Powered armor (technological), sorcery (magic)
Reed Richards - stretching (radiation accident), technological VPP
Shadowcat - Intangibility (mutant), ninja training (awesome mini-series)
Giantman - Growth, Talking to ants
Legion of Superheroes - Everyone gets a membership card and a Flight ring
etc...

Why not allow the disjointed powers, with or without an explanation. If no explanation is given, develop the story and reveal it through game-play.

You forgot a few things:

Wolverine: Ninja Training
Shadowcat: Black Magic Sorceress
Dr. Doom: Filthy rich perk: Ruler of country Diplomatic immunity.Technological VPP

Also the spelling police stopped by and fixed the spelling errors. DAMN them!:p

[Kirby]

Wolverine: Ninja TrainingWolverine had ninja training? :eek: :confused: Did he ever use it, aside from walking softly...and carrying a big schtick? ;)

[Adventus]

Wolverine had ninja training? :eek: :confused: Did he ever use it, aside from walking softly...and carrying a big shtick? ;)

He also has Samurai training.

[Maelstrom]

This was, incidentally, one of my own initial reactions upon first learning about Spider-Man :)

You must have been an advanced child. When I first found out about Spiderman, all I wanted to do was swing around the house. That's when I found out about the differences in load-bearing between beams and sheetrock.

I never in my life, until this thread, considered it odd. Maybe because I was so young when I first saw Spidey, I just accepted it whole-heartedly, and didn't bother thinking about it too hard.

I still swing on ropes, now and then. People think I'm just playful, but for a few seconds, I get to be Spiderman.

[Tech]

I see personal preferences being mentioned in this thread regarding unified powers and/or themes for powers. I have no problem if a player wanted to create something where the powers aren't related just as long as they have a reason for it. I think it would be easier for the player and there is certainly the cost break in an Elemental Control to consider though.

When CHAMPIONS first came out, one aspect of the game that seems to have been lost since then is the idea that you can create whatever powers you want, any hero you want. You are not forced in a box, albeit a huge box, to create a hero who's powers are similar in nature, i.e. Ice Powers, Fire Powers, etc. That is one of the points of an EC - you get a break in cost for similar powers. When those powers are not similar in kind, you don't get the cost break. Gasp - this means you can design a hero without a theme.

Using a very broad brushstroke in this next statement, it seems to be a permeating thought that any hero created must have a theme or there is no concept. Yes, it's a blanket statement but I've seen this thought so many times. Excuse me but are we forced to create heroes who's powers must match or can we be a little crazy here and there and create heroes (and villains) who's powers and/or abilities and/or skills aren't related. Let's not forget we tend to think that a name should reflect their powers..

Unrelated powers example: A player wants to create a hero: Rich Glass is a pro-wrestler (a real one) with 20 years of experience under his belt. While walking home, he's hit with radiation and acquires not only the power to control water but generate electricity as well. You now have a hero with wrestling, water and electric powers. Related powers? No. Interesting? Yes.

Unrelated name ex. A hero called Jonathan Stone gets fire powers in an explosion. Hey, his powers are a theme so cool. His name? Stone. (Whaa? You're calling him Stone when his powers are fire? Why not call him Fireblast or something?) No, he wants to be called by his name: Stone. Now you have a hero with fire powers going by the name of Stone. Does it work? You bet.

[Kirby]

While I agree with what you said, I have two silly comments:

Unrelated powers example: A player wants to create a hero: Rich Glass is a pro-wrestler (a real one) with 20 years of experience under his belt. While walking home, he's hit with radiation and acquires not only the power to control water but generate electricity as well. You now have a hero with wrestling, water and electric powers. Related powers? No. Interesting? Yes.It's a wave! It's a spark! It's Hydro-Electric Pump! :D


Unrelated name ex. A hero called Jonathan Stone gets fire powers in an explosion. Hey, his powers are a theme so cool. His name? Stone. (Whaa? You're calling him Stone when his powers are fire? Why not call him Fireblast or something?) No, he wants to be called by his name: Stone. Now you have a hero with fire powers going by the name of Stone. Does it work? You bet.And he gets upset when his teammates or the media start referring to him as BrimStone. ;)

[Kirby]

You must have been an advanced child. When I first found out about Spiderman, all I wanted to do was swing around the house. That's when I found out about the differences in load-bearing between beams and sheetrock.Heh, I think it wasn't until junior high or high school that I learned they were mechanical. I had always thought they were part of the spider bite results.

[Tech]

An Addendum:

The use of a Multipower allows various powers to be used but all the powers must use the same pool of points. They can be any power of any effect; no theme required. :thumbup:

Ex.
50 Multipower
5u 10d6 EB - Air Blast
5u +25 PD, +25 ED Forcefield - Magnetic Bubble
5u 3d6+1 RKA - Earth Spear
5u 25" Flight - Mental Flight

Kinda crazy powers but they're legit and allowable. Related? No. Allowable? Oh yes.

[Markdoc]

He also has Samurai training.

and spy training :D

cheers, Mark

[transmetahuman]

and spy training :D

cheers, Mark

Sheesh. Next we'll learn that he used to be a cowboy/test pilot/astronaut/pirate.

[Superskrull]

Sheesh. Next we'll learn that he used to be a cowboy/test pilot/astronaut/pirate.

Well, he was a fur-trapper. He also uses a transdimensional accounting firm.
Oh, and he hung out with Ernest Hemmingway.

...no, really...

He also saved the last of the Romanov family from an evil cabal of ninjas and nazis during WWII with the aid of Captain America.

One wonders if he panned for gold or ran a speakeasy during Prohibition too.

[SpydirShellX]

Sheesh. Next we'll learn that he used to be a cowboy/test pilot/astronaut/pirate.

Didn't he go around with an eyepatch for a while? Pirate right there.

[transmetahuman]

His action figures could become the boy's version of the Barbie doll. Ninja Wolverine! Pirate Wolverine! Stunt Driver Wolverine! Nazi Ass-Kicking Wolverine!

And you just know the phrase that Talks To Me Wolverine says when you pull his string... :rolleyes:

[Superskrull]

And you just know the phrase that Talks To Me Wolverine says when you pull his string... :rolleyes:

"Math is hard, bub."

[David Johnston]

He also has Samurai training.

Wolverine's endlessly accumulating past has, I think, something to do with his plummeting popularity. You can only push a character so far before he starts looking silly, even to a comic book fan.

[Kirby]

You can only push a character so far before he starts looking silly, even to a comic book fan.You mean it didn't start with his hair style? :D

[Maelstrom]

Sheesh. Next we'll learn that he used to be a cowboy/test pilot/astronaut/pirate.

I hope he's not in the same bar I am. Two of us in one place might look funny.

[Maelstrom]

I think Wonder Woman's magic lasso came from her creator's interest in bondage. As with most scurrilous rumor, I have no source, but will gleefully repeat it.

[Kirby]

Sheesh. Next we'll learn that he used to be a cowboy/test pilot/astronaut/pirate.

I hope he's not in the same bar I am. Two of us in one place might look funny.
Hmm, sounds like more than one person has been fudging their rolls to get the 98-00 "Reroll TWICE and keep both professions" on the "Random Background Table." ;)

[jkwleisemann]

His action figures could become the boy's version of the Barbie doll.
Great.

Now I've got my head filled with images of Wolverine traipsing through malls with his girlfriends, picking up frilly dresses and shopping for shoes.

X-23 or no X-23, Wolverine makes a lousy tranny.

Back on subject... well, I've already commented on everything before, really. Personally, I kinda like Wolverine's expanding background, it's a nice touch for somebody who's effectively immortal... but, then, I haven't actually been reading the comics for the past decade+....

[Zeropoint]

I once created a character who had minor cold powers, which he didn't discover until he learned to focus his chi through advanced martial arts.

He's an ice ninja.

COMPLETELY unrelated powers, but I like they way they work together.

[watson]

There's actually a comic book trope that can tie together wildly disparate powers with a single special effect (given that you have a broader view of the definition of a "special effect") - the combination character.

Examples from comics include:
The Super-Adaptoid
Rogue
Mimic
The Super-Skrull
Amazo

All of the above characters have odd combinations of powers - in the case of Mimic and The Super-Skrull, both have the powers of an entire team of heroes! This concept is what I consider to be a broad "special effect" category all its own, really, given that the Super-Skrull himself is a rather iconic character, supported by Rogue's Ms. Marvel abilities and more recently Amazo in the animated Justice League.

[Hugh Neilson]

There's actually a comic book trope that can tie together wildly disparate powers with a single special effect (given that you have a broader view of the definition of a "special effect") - the combination character.

Examples from comics include:
The Super-Adaptoid
Rogue
Mimic
The Super-Skrull
Amazo

All of the above characters have odd combinations of powers - in the case of Mimic and The Super-Skrull, both have the powers of an entire team of heroes!

All but Rogue have "the powers of an entire super-team" as their own SFX. Those powers don't seem random to me. Rogue has "the powers of Ms. Marvel", so her powers are as random (or not) as Ms. Marvel's.


This concept is what I consider to be a broad "special effect" category all its own, really, given that the Super-Skrull himself is a rather iconic character, supported by Rogue's Ms. Marvel abilities and more recently Amazo in the animated Justice League.

Actually, Amazo would be the predecessor character, as he first apeared in the second or third Justice League of America story back in The Brave & The Bold. Super-Skrull came a bit later in about FF #28, Mimic in X-Men #19, and Super-Adaptoid was, I think the last, first apearing in Cap's strip in Tales of Suspense. There's not a lot of time between them - certainly less than five years.

[Kirby]

There's actually a comic book trope that can tie together wildly disparate powers with a single special effect (given that you have a broader view of the definition of a "special effect") - the combination character.

Examples from comics include:
The Super-Adaptoid
Rogue
Mimic
The Super-Skrull
Amazo

All of the above characters have odd combinations of powers - in the case of Mimic and The Super-Skrull, both have the powers of an entire team of heroes! This concept is what I consider to be a broad "special effect" category all its own, really, given that the Super-Skrull himself is a rather iconic character, supported by Rogue's Ms. Marvel abilities and more recently Amazo in the animated Justice League.Also, DC had B.I.O.N. who appeared at least in Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 4 #26 (February 1992): "Battered by B.I.O.N." (http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/legion_superheroes.htm) if not sooner. (Sorry, but I have yet to find a source to show what his name stood for. :( I even wrote in to DC one time when they re/pre-Introduced B.I.O.N. and didn't give his name. They answered it in the fan mail section, but I don't believe I have that issue any more.)

Oh, and there was a robot/construct/thingy in the Justice League when Maxwell Lord manipulated the League into getting Booster Gold in. (Had three powers that nullified other members, including yellow fire for Guy Gardner.)

[Hugh Neilson]

There was also the Composite Supereman, who looked like a green-skinned half-Superman/half-Batman and possessed all the powers of the Legion of Super Heroes.

[watson]

Hugh Neilsen, I wasn't trying to list them in chronological order, but thanks for mentioning it. :)

Actually, the point of my post is that there's a "unifying theme" that these characters can claim to explain their sometimes bizarre combinations of powers.