Mental Regeneration

[Steve]

On the Champions board, there is this (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50347) thread concerning Menton, and it gave me an idea for a power, a form of psychological Regeneration. My thought is that it would represent a mind capable of snapping back quickly from any Ego characteristic damage or psychological Transforms. I think it would be modeled by taking the standard build for Regeneration and substituting Ego for Body. I don't know if it would be legal to take any additional Limitations, even though Ego damage would be rarer than BODY damage. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Rapier]

On the Champions board, there is this (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50347) thread concerning Menton, and it gave me an idea for a power, a form of psychological Regeneration. My thought is that it would represent a mind capable of snapping back quickly from any Ego characteristic damage or psychological Transforms. I think it would be modeled by taking the standard build for Regeneration and substituting Ego for Body. I don't know if it would be legal to take any additional Limitations, even though Ego damage would be rarer than BODY damage. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Actually it sounds more like you want an Aid to restore EGO to Starting Values, not regen.

[Vondy]

Actually it sounds more like you want an Aid to restore EGO to Starting Values, not regen.

Regen has the advantage of being on all the time, I think. And it might be better suited in terms of mechanics and meta-FX in relation to restoring the character to a pre-transform state. I think Aid is better suited to dealing with Drains and Transfers than fixing Transform results. This is just my impression on how the respective powers function, and the Ego transforms I've dealt with (and seen) in the past. Your experience and impression may, of course, vary.

[Vondy]

On the Champions board, there is this (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50347) thread concerning Menton, and it gave me an idea for a power, a form of psychological Regeneration. My thought is that it would represent a mind capable of snapping back quickly from any Ego characteristic damage or psychological Transforms. I think it would be modeled by taking the standard build for Regeneration and substituting Ego for Body. I don't know if it would be legal to take any additional Limitations, even though Ego damage would be rarer than BODY damage. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I would allow it, and think it works better than Aid in terms of what you want to accomplish. It will not restore stun from Ego Attacks, or reduce the affect of the common Mental Powers (Mind Control, Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Etc), but it will only help you with mental Drains, Transfers, Ego RKAs, and Transforms (theoretically uncommon and generally expensive powers). Whether or not I would allow a "Limited FX" limitation would depend on how common those attacks were in the game, or whether characters with those attacks would be making frequent appearances. As a result I can't answer that part of your question. On the other hand, I would probably require the character to take "can repair brain damage" in lieu of "can restore lost limbs" and "returns from ego death" in lieu of regular resurrection. The question for whether those work or not, however, is likely based on FX. Is it a purely psionic recovery? Does it actually repair the brain itself? Does it amazingly "re-route" past damaged parts of the brain? Etc.

[Rapier]

Regen has the advantage of being on all the time, I think. And it might be better suited in terms of mechanics and meta-FX in relation to restoring the character to a pre-transform state. I think Aid is better suited to dealing with Drains and Transfers than fixing Transform results. This is just my impression on how the respective powers function, and the Ego transforms I've dealt with (and seen) in the past. Your experience and impression may, of course, vary.

Hmmm. Yeah, I can see that.

Ok, it's not really much of a stretch then. What is Regen? It's basically a BODY Aid that's on all the time. There shouldn't be much of an issue buidling EGO Regen the same as BODY Regen and just defining it as effecting EGO instead of BODY. Buy it up to 1d6+1 so you get 4 Standard Effect (2 EGO) and:

EGO Regen: Aid EGO 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Persistent (+1/2) (19 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) -- Real Cost 8 pts

Compared to your everyday Regen:
Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) -- Real Cost 7 pts

In fact, you should be able to replace EGO with any characteristic and Bob's yer uncle.

[Sean Waters]

I like the idea (I'm thinking someone who can restore his mind from a backup :)).

Only problem with overcoming transforms though is that transforms can get rid of your existing powers - including your ability to recover quickly from transforms. Also not all transforms can be 'healed' - some might require other ways to recover.

I can only think of some sort of triggered (trigger being hit by a mental transform) power that - well - probably transforms you back, possibly with an extended time of gradual effect limitation thrown in for good measure. that would probably work to restore lost characteristics as well - although you'd need more points to do that (and eventually your 'recovery transform' would fade - but by then you'd probably have recovered your lost characteristics anyway)

It would not necessarily have to be expensive either - a small transform would work so long as the power was continuous and uncontrolled as transform is cumulative.

[Sean Waters]

...and of course you can't transform yourself, which is a problem, but arguably the power is activated by you but effects someone else - an altered you. I can think of a very cheesy way around it involving summon, but that is just wrong.

Have to ponder some more...

[Lucius]

...and of course you can't transform yourself, which is a problem, but arguably the power is activated by you but effects someone else - an altered you. I can think of a very cheesy way around it involving summon, but that is just wrong.

Have to ponder some more...

Yeah, short of cheesy things like Summon, is there any other way to get the effect you're describing here? I don't think Multiform works!

I'd have to argue that the transformed character is not the same as the original and therefore a legitimate target for the original's transform.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary positively savors that last sentence as Lucius stares at it and says "I wrote THAT!?"

[alexraccoon]

The problem with this scenario is that once your mind has been 'changed'/transformed would the character person know or be aware enough to reboot/use their aid. I far prefer the idea of the natural regeneration that once its run its course snaps your characters mind back to normal.

[OddHat]

Regeneration is not based on Aid; it's based on Heal. Different power in 5th.

That said, the exact same advantages and limitations that turn Heal BODY into Regeneration will turn Heal EGO into EGO Regeneration. Good idea, and the most direct way to get the effect.

No point break; Heal costs the same no matter what you're healing.

[Sean Waters]

The problem with this scenario is that once your mind has been 'changed'/transformed would the character person know or be aware enough to reboot/use their aid. I far prefer the idea of the natural regeneration that once its run its course snaps your characters mind back to normal.

The problem being that a nice, thorough, transform will remove your 'regenerate mind' power, whereas a triggered transform can take effect even if you don't realise you have been transformed because you are, at that moment, a frog.

Of course you could have a triggered regenerate too....

There is nothing in Hero that can survive a successful transform as such, so you need to be sneaky. Trigger is OK.

A cunning plan though (albeit one you would need to clear with your GM first) would be to buy power defence ONLY to protect a particualr power: i.e. you don't get the benefit of the power defence against the transform but the power survives the transform, so instead of turning into a perfectly ordinary frog you turn into a frog with your transformation regeneration intact.

You could take a similar approach against adjustment powers to stop your 'fast recovery from drains' being drained.

I'd probably allow you -1 on the power defence, although I might be persuaded to be even more generous. Well, I might let you think I could be persuaded just to see the grovelling :)

[Doug Limmer]

How about this?

Buy a follower - a computer. (I'm a little unsure about this, but I get the impression that computers don't have to be physical objects.)

The computer has constantly trained on you a 1d6 Transform defined appropriately (something like "to 'regular' form, with all appropriate cumulative memories, et al.).

Of course, if you wanted to use this Transform to actually give you new or more powerful abilities, I hope the GM would veto it. But I think I might allow it in this situation.

[Steve]

The problem being that a nice, thorough, transform will remove your 'regenerate mind' power, whereas a triggered transform can take effect even if you don't realise you have been transformed because you are, at that moment, a frog.

I find myself in disagreement on this point just a bit, since there is an argument that can be made that the special effects of a power can override the mechanics in certain cases. There are few Transforms that are so complete, covering mind, body and soul that they would require a special defense power just to defend a Regeneration-like restoration power.

There is also some roleplaying fun that can be made from a PC with mental regeneration suddenly waking up from the mental portion of a total body Transform to realize, "I've been turned into a wombat! Someone will pay for this!"

[Rapier]

Regeneration is not based on Aid; it's based on Heal. Different power in 5th.

That said, the exact same advantages and limitations that turn Heal BODY into Regeneration will turn Heal EGO into EGO Regeneration. Good idea, and the most direct way to get the effect.

No point break; Heal costs the same no matter what you're healing.

Yes, but I was simplifying! :)

Regen is a type of Healing which is a type of Aid.

You knew what I meant!

[Vondy]

The problem with this scenario is that once your mind has been 'changed'/transformed would the character person know or be aware enough to reboot/use their aid. I far prefer the idea of the natural regeneration that once its run its course snaps your characters mind back to normal.

If the power is purchased 0 End, Persistant they won't have to activate it, IMO

[Rapier]

If the power is purchased 0 End, Persistant they won't have to activate it, IMO

I can't decide if I would want an Always On with that. I guess it depends on which power you use as the base.

[Vondy]

I can't decide if I would want an Always On with that. I guess it depends on which power you use as the base.

I don't see it as being much of a limitation in either case - it boils down to "your healing is always on." How is that a bad thing? Unless you want an allied mentalist to ego transform you in a positive way doesn't inconvenience you at all. And with Regen, you'd be purchasing 0 End, Persistant to make sure you had an invariably reliable power in place. You'd be taking a lim that reinforces the positive power applications. On the other hand, it does make it cheaper, and it the allied mentalist scenario could theoretically pop up. I'm a liberal GM in this regard... I'd probably allow it.

Edit/Afterthought: maybe Always on would become an advantage?

[Sean Waters]

Normal regeneration does not get to take 'always on', but I think it is generally assumed it is, depending on sfx. I would say that being unable to turn off a power like that is a +0 - you can't be FORCED to turn it off as you don't have the switch but I can (just) see some rare circumstances where regeneration is a problem (difficult to operate on regenerators and if there is a bullet stuck in the wound you might never get it out befroe the hole closes....)

Sometimes you might WANT to have a different mental signature but your power keeps on wiping yout yuour disguise...althoug most of the time not being able to turn it off is a boon.

+0 I think.

[Steve]

Since there are negligible downsides to an Always On Healing ability (aka Regeneration), I'd agree on a +0 Limitation value.

Questions:

1) Do you think this power would also work on Spirit-based Transforms as well as Mental ones? The example I can think of is a curse of some kind that turns someone 'Evil' in Spirit that they can eventually heal from through this ability. Or would you call a curse like that a purely Mental effect?

My mind sort of boggles at the notion of a soul that can perpetually 'refresh' itself and heal from any 'sin' imposed on it. I can picture it, but it raises some interesting theological implications.

2) If you set up Mental and Spirit as two separate qualities subject to Transforms, would they both be tied to EGO? What other characteristic could be one to use for Spirit? Is this answered in 5ER somewhere?

[Sean Waters]

Since there are negligible downsides to an Always On Healing ability (aka Regeneration), I'd agree on a +0 Limitation value.

Questions:

1) Do you think this power would also work on Spirit-based Transforms as well as Mental ones? The example I can think of is a curse of some kind that turns someone 'Evil' in Spirit that they can eventually heal from through this ability. Or would you call a curse like that a purely Mental effect?

My mind sort of boggles at the notion of a soul that can perpetually 'refresh' itself and heal from any 'sin' imposed on it. I can picture it, but it raises some interesting theological implications.

2) If you set up Mental and Spirit as two separate qualities subject to Transforms, would they both be tied to EGO? What other characteristic could be one to use for Spirit? Is this answered in 5ER somewhere?


Hehe. Teflon Soul.

I think BODY is used for spirit transforms but it is suggested you could use PRE instead, with a suitable limitation

[Lucius]

We once had a long thread just about that question (spiritual transform.)

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary considers it an appropriate topic for the time of year.

[Sean Waters]

We once had a long thread just about that question (spiritual transform.)

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary considers it an appropriate topic for the time of year.

Which turned into a discussion on the nature of the sould in Hero :)

[Dust Raven]

Mental Resielience: EC
Mental Regeneration: Healing 1 EGO/Turn (1d6) 0 END, Persistant, Self Only
Mental Armor: Defense 16 Hardened plus Resistance Defense: MD 16 Hardened
Mental Rebound: +6 EGO Rolls Only To Breakout Of Continuing Effect Mental Powers, Does Not Apply To Initial Breakout Roll


Or...

Reset Button: Multiform (identical to base form), Inherent.

[Steve]

Reset Button: Multiform (identical to base form), Inherent.

Interesting idea. Would you need to add in a Trigger?

I would imagine it working something like this.

"I transform him." Rolls dice. "HA! 27 BODY!"

"He snaps back to normal in the next segment."

"WHAT?!"

[PhilFleischmann]

Interesting idea. Would you need to add in a Trigger?

I would imagine it working something like this.

"I transform him." Rolls dice. "HA! 27 BODY!"

"He snaps back to normal in the next segment."

"WHAT?!"

"I transform him again."

"Now he stays transformed." He only has one extra form, both this and his base form are transformed.

[Sean Waters]

....also horribly expensive for what would be quite a rare defence. I like Dust Raven's EC, but it isn't technically legal as there are powers that do not cost END, GMP notwithstanding.

The problem with Hero is that there will always be so many attack actions that you cannot cover all the bases defence wise. This is why some sort of regeneration type effect is probably the best bet. It still won't stop some transforms that rely an a specific action to undo, but you can’t have everything.

So, Ultimate Recovery

Healing 1d6 standard effect (3 character points) with re-grow limbs and resurrection adders 25 active points

0 END + ½
Continuous + 1
Uncontrolled + ½
Improved reiteration (recover once per turn) +1 ¼
All reduced/affected characteristics and powers +2
Auto-reset trigger + ¾

Active cost +6 (245 points)

Self only – ½
Extra time (once per turn) –1 ¼

Real cost –1 ¾ (89 points)

I mean, I know it is not cheap, but it does mean that practically nothing can affect you for long, not injury, not brain drains and not (the majority of) transformations, not even dismemberment and death. The ‘all reduced/affected characteristics and powers’ is a bit dodgy, I suppose. Never mind.

The combination of trigger and uncontrolled should ensure that the power runs whatever is done to you, even if you are transformed or affected multiple times.

[Hugh Neilson]

So, Ultimate Recovery

Healing 1d6 standard effect (3 character points) with re-grow limbs and resurrection adders 25 active points

0 END + ½
Continuous + 1
Uncontrolled + ½
Improved reiteration (recover once per turn) +1 ¼
All reduced/affected characteristics and powers +2
Auto-reset trigger + ¾

Active cost +6 (245 points)

Self only – ½
Extra time (once per turn) –1 ¼

Real cost –1 ¾ (89 points)

I mean, I know it is not cheap

To reduce the cost, remove the two adders. It now costs 21 AP, and 8 real points. Purchase Regeneration normally, add the two adders and Limit it to "heal limbs and resurrect onlly". That should be a lot less expensive.


but it does mean that practically nothing can affect you for long, not injury, not brain drains and not (the majority of) transformations, not even dismemberment and death. The ‘all reduced/affected characteristics and powers’ is a bit dodgy, I suppose. Never mind.

The combination of trigger and uncontrolled should ensure that the power runs whatever is done to you, even if you are transformed or affected multiple times.

As to the implications of this power, I would note that it now becomes impossible to KO this character for any length of time. Most characters at -20 STUN or below are effectively removed from combat. This character gets back 3 STUN every PS 12 (more if he buys more than 1d6 to recover faster - it's only about 7.5 points for each d6). First PS 12, he's at -17 STUN. next PS 12, he regains 3 STUN and gets a normal recovery. After that, he's likely recovering every phase.

Note that this worsens if we buy the autorecovery to act every phase instead of every turn. Alternatively, it costs about 15 points for every 2d6, so we could recover 14 CP each turn for only 30 points. That's only 2 points more than buying +14 REC, and a lot more effective.

[Sean Waters]

IIRC you can't reduce the 'heal' iteration improvement to better than once per turn. OTOH, you can make it go off, in effect, twice per turn using standard effect on 1d6, you can get 6 points per turn rather than just 3, which effectviely means 3 BODY (or equivalent, 6 STUN, 12 END) per turn, for very little extra investment in points.

I do take your point about the resurrect and heal limbs thing, but it does feel a bit wrong to do it that way. You may just have invesnted naked adders....

Mind you, even if you can't come back from teh dead it is still a very useful power indeed, and not at all expensive bought that way: 38 points will let you heal limbs in the existing build, if just resurrect is dropped.

[Hugh Neilson]

I do take your point about the resurrect and heal limbs thing, but it does feel a bit wrong to do it that way. You may just have invesnted naked adders....

Sean, I have to question why you should pay extra points on Resurrect or Heal Limbs for:

- "all characteristics/powers" - these aren't regenerated or resurrected

- Improved Iteration - unless this means the limbs regrow/character comes back faster

I don't think points should be paid for no benefit.

On the self-resetting trigger, Uncontrolled, Continuous - doesn't Regenerate get by with Persistent? In fact, why can't the character just apply "+2 - all stats and powers" to Regenerate and get back 2 CP per turn of every attribute?

[Sean Waters]

Sean, I have to question why you should pay extra points on Resurrect or Heal Limbs for:

- "all characteristics/powers" - these aren't regenerated or resurrected

- Improved Iteration - unless this means the limbs regrow/character comes back faster

I don't think points should be paid for no benefit.

On the self-resetting trigger, Uncontrolled, Continuous - doesn't Regenerate get by with Persistent? In fact, why can't the character just apply "+2 - all stats and powers" to Regenerate and get back 2 CP per turn of every attribute?


Oh I agree with you, but adders do lead to some cost confusion, and buying the adders seperately seems to avoid the spirit of things a little. I'll have to think about it and get back to you on that one.

As for the uncontrolled continuous trigger:

1. I am not sure that persistent actually works right or should be used in regeneration to make an instant power constant (there is another thread on this, or was recently)

2. The idea of the uncontrolled trigegred power was to avoid transforms removing the regeneration effect. I.E. if you are transformed into a stone statue, you don't keep your powers: you can't teleport or EB - why should you keep your regeneration that enables you to recover more quickly? A similar thing may apply to 'mental regeneration' depending on definitions and build. A triggered uncontrolled power (which has to be made constant for uncontrolled to work) becomes 'external' - it is not affected by what happens tot he character - so you retain the effect of healing even though you have lost the base power - hence the rather convoluted build.