DM of the Rings

[Gawain]

I stumbled across this web comic today. :rofl: Hilarious stuff. :lol:
DM of the Rings (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612)


Imagine a gaggle of modern hack-n-slash roleplayers who had somehow never been exposed to the original Tolkien mythos, and then imagine taking those players and trying to introduce them to Tolkien via a D&D campaign.

[sbarron]

I started laughing out loud at episode 6 or 7. Good stuff! :thumbup:

[Lucius]

Aragorn: I can heal wounds?


Which raises the question: Since the Ranger class was obviously based on the character of Aragorn, thus the ability to use crystal balls at high level, why wasn't some ability to heal, even if limited by availability of herbs, given to the class to begin with?

In fact, with the example of a fighter who heals clearly before the eyes of Gygax and everyone else there at the genesis of D&D, why did they need to create the Cleric class in the first place?

Lucius Alexander

Inquiring palindromedaries don't think we'll ever know.

[Lucius]

And another thing - what was TOLKIEN thinking?

Of course Aragorn would bear the broken sword of his ancestor - probably stashed away, safely wrapped, at the bottom of his pack. In his scabbard rather than carry something that proclaims "Hi! I'm the HEIR OF ELENDIL!" he'd have a much more ordinary, much more mundane, but above all whole and useful sword. Unless he's an idiot. And, other than things like preferring Arwen to Eowyn, Aragorn is not an idiot. (All men are idiots when it comes to women.)

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary notes that it is now 0900 hrs.

[Vondy]

Unless he's an idiot.

If the scabbard does not fit you must aquit!

No lawyer can prepare a strong enough defense.

[L. Marcus]

"Oh my God! He's using the Chewbacca Defense!"

[ghost-angel]

"Oh no. Who let the roleplayer into the group."

Best line yet.

[Lucius]

I liked the one where the Orc with an arrow sticking out of its face is complaining "you sound totally retarded."

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary rather liked the nazgul uttering "Insipid mortals! Can't you stay in character for, like, five minutes?"

[Curufea]

And another thing - what was TOLKIEN thinking?

Of course Aragorn would bear the broken sword of his ancestor - probably stashed away, safely wrapped, at the bottom of his pack. In his scabbard rather than carry something that proclaims "Hi! I'm the HEIR OF ELENDIL!" he'd have a much more ordinary, much more mundane, but above all whole and useful sword. Unless he's an idiot. And, other than things like preferring Arwen to Eowyn, Aragorn is not an idiot. (All men are idiots when it comes to women.)

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary notes that it is now 0900 hrs.

The world of Middle Earth is not high fantasy. Generally people don't carry swords around in their daily lives - there aren't monsters wandering around randomly. Daggers would be the norm, unless you're in the military.

[Markdoc]

The world of Middle Earth is not high fantasy. Generally people don't carry swords around in their daily lives - there aren't monsters wandering around randomly. Daggers would be the norm, unless you're in the military.

Well Aragorn was, more or less, in the military. But in the case of the sword, I'm assuming he put it on special for impressing the hobbits he was waiting for - he already knew the main one of them was an elf-geek with an uncle in Rivendell, so the significance of the sword was unlikely to be lost on him.

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

A painful read - and reminicent of some real world gaming groups. :eek:

[Old Man]

"Some"?

[bigdamnhero]

:rofl: Pardon me, I have to go send this link to everyone I've ever known...

[Admiral C]

Hilarious. :)

[Inu]

"Oh no, now the GM's doing it."

The biggest danger to our gaming (aside from work postponing sessions) is tabletalk about completely unrelated things. We've never had a conversation specifically about php vs mysql, but we certainly have had long rants on the limitations of both.

[Vondy]

"Some"?

I'm willing to entertain "most," but not "all."

[Old Man]

That is, verbatim, Shadowpup's definition of "some".

[Sociotard]

"Horn of Gondor: Blow this horn in a moment of need and Allies will arrive in time to give you a proper burial"

"Narsil: Sword of Legend. Refurbished."

These are great.

And so I don't lose my place, I'm on 1203. I wish he had a button to see the most recent one.

[Susano]

"Okay, that's new."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[L. Marcus]

"Yeah, I would've remembered him."

[RPMiller]

BRILLIANT!! I must set aside some time to read through this whole thing. Thanks for the link you've been repped.

[Killer Shrike]

You mean running highly detailed games for idiotic, apathetic, useless players is not an experience unique to me?

{shock, amazement}

Who knew?

[L. Marcus]

. . . Just read the last installment . . . Apparently, "Fly, you fools!" never happened. :D

[AmadanNaBriona]

. . . Just read the last installment . . . Apparently, "Fly, you fools!" never happened. :D

Yea, I just brought myself up to date as well, and the latest installment had me rolling.

[AliceTheOwl]

"Horn of Gondor: Blow this horn in a moment of need and Allies will arrive in time to give you a proper burial"

"Narsil: Sword of Legend. Refurbished."

These are great.

And so I don't lose my place, I'm on 737. I wish he had a button to see the most recent one.
That's my biggest complaint, too. I tend to jump to the current month and scroll until I see one I haven't read yet.

[Korvar]

I've bookmarked:

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?cat=14

That way links to new comics show up at the top, but a click away.

[keithcurtis]

"That-- That was brilliant!"

Keith "hee-hee-hee" Curtis

[Curufea]

I think it highlights why we tend to use Fantasy Hero instead :)

[Inu]

I think it highlights why we tend to use Fantasy Hero instead :)
It should be noted that the jokes are easily portable between systems. ;) Most of them are about the players, not the system itself.

[tkdguy]

I think this place (http://www.housing.uci.edu/me/hall_Desc.asp#special) would be perfect for a LARP session.

[Gawain]

The best one yet! (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1023) Combines two of my favorite movies and one of the most common RPG/geek activities.

[keithcurtis]

I don't know. I really liked the Schroedinger's cat reference two issues back.

Keith "Have I become some kind of Uncertainty Lich?" Curtis

[L. Marcus]

"I Hate This Campaign!"

[Vondy]

Aragorn: I can heal wounds?


Which raises the question: Since the Ranger class was obviously based on the character of Aragorn, thus the ability to use crystal balls at high level, why wasn't some ability to heal, even if limited by availability of herbs, given to the class to begin with?

In fact, with the example of a fighter who heals clearly before the eyes of Gygax and everyone else there at the genesis of D&D, why did they need to create the Cleric class in the first place?

Lucius Alexander

Inquiring palindromedaries don't think we'll ever know.

Well... because long ago in the primordial ooze from which modern D&D emerged there were no skills. I kid you not. ;)

[Korvar]

Skill were, if I recall correctly, invented for the Oriental Adventures supplement...

[Vondy]

Skill were, if I recall correctly, invented for the Oriental Adventures supplement...

I think you're right. AD&D added proficiencies as an optional rule (very general: you only got one and it amounted to a usually irrelevant "PS"), but both Oriental Adventures and Unearthed Arcana had weapon and non-weapon proficiencies. I don't remember which was published first, however.

Edit: I did a search. Oriental Adventures predated Unearthed Arcana.

[Vondy]

And if you look at Castles & Crusades (2005), which is Gygax's latest gaming work, its basically D&D 3 with no skills or feats and 13 character classes. Its very "old school." Gary complains games have become too... complex. You know, with hard concepts like skills and stuff...

[tkdguy]

I'm sure Unearthed Arcana came before Oriental Adventures, since the samurai is described as a subclass of cavalier (I have OA but not UA). In 1st edition there was only a "secondary skill" table in the Dungeon Master's Guide. You rolled percentile dice to determine what your background was (trapper, forester, etc.). You usually ended up with one skill or occasionally two or no appreciable skills.

IIRC, The nonweapon proficiencies were in Oriental Adventures, Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, and Wilderness Survival Guide. They were included in 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, but they were still considered optional rules.

[assault]

And if you look at Castles & Crusades (2005), which is Gygax's latest gaming work,

He is apparently writing stuff for it, but he didn't create it.


Gary complains games have become too... complex. You know, with hard concepts like skills and stuff...

The problem is more that the current version of DnD pretty much requires you to refer to umpteen gazillion splatbooks and develop a long-term Master Plan for your character's development if you want to keep your character viable. Of course that's really only in munchkin-y games, but it seems to be pretty heavily implied.

Fun site: Dragonsfoot (http://www.dragonsfoot.org) - a site for old-school DnD reactionaries. Some of the people there actually care about the differences between the different editions of Basic DnD!

Plenty of inspiration, maps and stuff usable for Fantasy Hero.

[lapsedgamer]

And if you look at Castles & Crusades (2005), which is Gygax's latest gaming work, its basically D&D 3 with no skills or feats and 13 character classes. Its very "old school." Gary complains games have become too... complex. You know, with hard concepts like skills and stuff...

Does anyone know if Gygax persoanlly realized any real wealth from the concept of D&D. It seems like he wouldn't need to do anything other than collect royalty checks, but then again he might have gotten screwed. Just curious.

[tkdguy]

I recently discovered Dragonsfoot. It has some good stuff there.

[Inu]

Does anyone know if Gygax persoanlly realized any real wealth from the concept of D&D. It seems like he wouldn't need to do anything other than collect royalty checks, but then again he might have gotten screwed. Just curious.

If he did get screwed, then it's only his own actions coming back to bite him, considering how he treated everyone else around him (Dave Arneson, Ed Greenwood...)

[assault]

If he did get screwed, then it's only his own actions coming back to bite him, considering how he treated everyone else around him (Dave Arneson, Ed Greenwood...)

Greenwood? Are you sure you're not confusing Gygax with T$R?

Gygax's relationship with TSR is quite a saga.

[Vondy]

Does anyone know if Gygax persoanlly realized any real wealth from the concept of D&D. It seems like he wouldn't need to do anything other than collect royalty checks, but then again he might have gotten screwed. Just curious.

As I understand it he didn't realize what we would call "wealth" from it.

There is a wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax

[Vondy]

The problem is more that the current version of DnD pretty much requires you to refer to umpteen gazillion splatbooks and develop a long-term Master Plan for your character's development if you want to keep your character viable. Of course that's really only in munchkin-y games, but it seems to be pretty heavily implied.

No argument here. I actually like the old-school system in the sense that it was open enough to fiddle with, but I do like skills...



Fun site: Dragonsfoot (http://www.dragonsfoot.org) - a site for old-school DnD reactionaries. Some of the people there actually care about the differences between the different editions of Basic DnD!

Plenty of inspiration, maps and stuff usable for Fantasy Hero.

I'll take a look, thanks.

[lapsedgamer]

As I understand it he didn't realize what we would call "wealth" from it.

There is a wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax

Thanks. That was interestimg reading. It seems that he did indeed get screwed, with a little bit of bad luck and few unfortunate business decisions mixed in for flavor.

[Inu]

Greenwood? Are you sure you're not confusing Gygax with T$R?

Gygax's relationship with TSR is quite a saga.
Well, at the start, Gary and TSR were one and the same. Or rather, Gary and Dave and TSR were one and the same. But Gary screwed Dave... so if TSR screwed Gary, I can't really conjure up much sympathy for him!

That said, I'm no fan of TSR after their blatant 'we hate gamers' philosophy of the 90s.

[Inu]

The problem is more that the current version of DnD pretty much requires you to refer to umpteen gazillion splatbooks and develop a long-term Master Plan for your character's development if you want to keep your character viable. Of course that's really only in munchkin-y games, but it seems to be pretty heavily implied.
I do have a problem with the prestige class fixation myself, and I relax the entry requirements when I run (so that if you're basically the right kind of character to be, say, a Shadowdancer, then you can be one -- the exact requirements can be bought eventually).

However, to say that you MUST be a prestige class is false... wizards and sorcerers are about the only classes that really are pushed into them. All the others, prestige or no is a tradeoff. Particularly in 3.5, when Ranger turned from 'two levels of awesomeness followed by suckage' into a class that's actually worth taking 20 levels of.

And as for the splatbooks, the prestige classes presented in the 3.5 DMG cover most bases! :) Splatbooks optional, really. They help, but frankly, in Hero, you can run vehicles without The Ultimate Vehicle, and bricks without The Ultimate Brick, etc... but it helps to have the splatbooks!

[Lucius]

Well... because long ago in the primordial ooze from which modern D&D emerged there were no skills. I kid you not. ;)

Umm.mm....in what sense do you mean "skills?"

What they had was a set of "classes" and "races" who had specific abilities. As far as I know, the Thief class was there from the beginning. Not having "skills" in the sense you mean (the current proficiency/skill point system) didn't keep them from picking locks and pockets, climbing walls, and sneaking around. Nor would the lack of such a system have prevented Rangers from being able to heal wounds - had they thought of it. It could have been "tacked on" as easily as the clerical ability to turn undead or the theivish ability to backstab.

So my question stands unanswered.

Lucius Alexander

The Palindromedary reiterates that it probably always will.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought this should go in here


Because SOMEBODY had to make it...


Chariots of Mordor (http://youtube.com/watch?v=98Z94iLaHfc)

Exactly what went through my head when I first saw this scene.

[tkdguy]

Here are a few educated guesses:

Clerical magic: I think these were based more on sources other than fantasy books. Sticks to Snakes and Create Water seem to be based on the Book of Exodus (Aaron's staff turns into a snake; water springs from a rock after Moses hits it). In the New Testament, Jesus healed the sick and blind (Cure Disease and Cure Blindness spells) and brought Lazarus back to life (Raise Dead). I remember reading a story about St. Francis of Assisi convincing a wolf to stop killing villagers (Speak with Animals). People believe that clerics were modeled after the Hospitallers and Templars.

Also, thieves were not included in the first printings of D&D. The only classes available were fighting-men, magic-users, and clerics. Elves, dwarves, and hobbits were included as optional classes, but I'm not sure if they were in the earliest edition.

[BobGreenwade]

The best one yet! (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1023) Combines two of my favorite movies and one of the most common RPG/geek activities.Yes, this chapter actually brought tears (of laughter) to my eyes.... :D

[keithcurtis]

Also, thieves were not included in the first printings of D&D. The only classes available were fighting-men, magic-users, and clerics. Elves, dwarves, and hobbits were included as optional classes, but I'm not sure if they were in the earliest edition.

Elves were a class, but I believe dwarves and hobbits were races and could be fighters.

Keith "I'll dig out my three brown books, if need be. They're still mint" Curtis

[Plex]

Elves were a class, but I believe dwarves and hobbits were races and could be fighters.

Keith "I'll dig out my three brown books, if need be. They're still mint" Curtis


I believe that any race other than human was considered a class in the early version. (At least in the red and blue basic and expert sets I learned how to play the game.)

The halflings were the thief class, dwarves wwere fighters, and elves were magical.

Humans could be fighters, clerics, or mages.

But beyond that, this strip is erally funny. I've sent the link to all my players and now they are hooked. It is a shame that the strip fits so well for my own D&D campaign.

[Inu]

I believe that any race other than human was considered a class in the early version. (At least in the red and blue basic and expert sets I learned how to play the game.)

The halflings were the thief class, dwarves wwere fighters, and elves were magical.

Humans could be fighters, clerics, or mages.

But beyond that, this strip is erally funny. I've sent the link to all my players and now they are hooked. It is a shame that the strip fits so well for my own D&D campaign.
In the red box 'Basic set' D&D, which was published after AD&D was, there were four human classes -- fighter, cleric, magic-user, thief. Each demi-human race was its own class. The red basic set covered levels 1-3, while the blue 'Expert set' covered... 4-14, I think. In that box, the demihuman classes picked up level limits. Later sets allowed them to progress in 'attack rank' rather than level (no spell progression for elves, no more hit points, but htey got to hit things better!). The D&D rules cyclopedia, a compilation of all the D&D colour-box sets, had an optional rule for allowing demihumans (and mystics, a class that cropped up in a supplement, I believe, though I don't know which one) to progress through to level 36, same as the others.

I'm currently running a game set in the D&D game world -- Mystara -- so I have a good handle on these things. ^_- The old white/brown box stuff, I'm not so solid on. I've gotten a look at a friend's, but never owned it myself. As I said, the red/blue/green/black/gold box sets were published after AD&D, as a training wheels kinda thing. They were closer to the original rules, but not precisely the same. I honestly can't remember whether demihumans were particular classes in the earliest versions,b ut they were certainly their own classes in the colourbox series.

[Manic Typist]

Keith "I'll dig out my three brown books, if need be. They're still mint" Curtis

You know, these days, all the hip kids say "cherry." Especially if you have Steven Hawking in your library. (Or is it Stephen? Heck, I don't even know who that is.... ah, it is Stephen, according to Wikipedia).

[tkdguy]

The original rules were kinda funky. IIRC, Elves could progress as fighters and magic-users, but could only play one class in each adventure. So if you chose you play your elf PC as a fighter, then you couldn't cast spells in that session.

Actually, if you own the Elves of Alfheim (GAZ 5) gazeteer, they have that setup after a fashion. After reaching level 10, an elf could choose to progress either as a fighter (using the attack ranks) OR as a magic-user (gaining more spells). nd Mystara was a fun setting.

I don't own the original rule books, but a friend does. I only got the Basic and Expert books edited by Moldvay and Cook, and the later versions revised by Mentzer. I envy you, Keith.

And while lurking on Dragonsfoot, I found a link (http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/rulebooks.html) to an index of rulebooks.

[keithcurtis]

The original rules were kinda funky. IIRC, Elves could progress as fighters and magic-users, but could only play one class in each adventure. So if you chose you play your elf PC as a fighter, then you couldn't cast spells in that session.

I just broke them out and looked. This is true, though the class is called Fighting Man. Hobbits can be 4th level Fighting Men, and Dwarves are limited to 6th. No problems with munchkinism, here.

Keith "Loves all the Barsoom creatures in the encounter tables--Lookout Frodo--a banth!" Curtis

[tkdguy]

Thanks for the info. You know, I actually would have used a banth in a Middle Earth campaign, since I hadn't read Burrough's series then.

[keithcurtis]

Thanks for the info. You know, I actually would have used a banth in a Middle Earth campaign, since I hadn't read Burrough's series then.
All stories are improved by the sudden appearance of a banth.

Keith "Chapter 7 needs a little more action..." Curtis

[tkdguy]

I'd like to try out an older version of Classic D&D. I know one person who has some of the old books (before the red book), but he wasn't interested in doing an old-style game at the time. I have't heard from him lately, but I doubt he's changed his mind.

[Susano]

All stories are improved by the sudden appearance of a banth.

Or near-naked native princesses.

Uhm... just sayin', y'know?

[tkdguy]

Or near-naked native princesses.

Uhm... just sayin', y'know?
Who fight like Xena?

[assault]

Who fight like Xena?

Sadly not. While Martian princesses will sometimes fight, they aren't particularly good at it. In that sense they are more decorative than functional.

But they are smoking hot, or, as John Carter phrased it - "incomparable".

[keithcurtis]

For a guy with a general IQ of six outside of anything not related to cutting large things into smaller things with a piece of metal, John Carter could occasionally come up with an awesome turn of phrase.


"I understand your words, Dotar Sojat," she replied, "but you I do not understand. You are a queer mixture of child and man, of brute and noble. I only wish that I might read your heart."

"Look down at your feet, Dejah Thoris; it lies there now where it has lain since that other night at Korad, and where it will ever lie beating alone for you until death stills it forever."

Keith "Man if could talk like that, I would be swimming in chicks" Curtis

[Lucius]

For a guy with a general IQ of six outside of anything not related to cutting large things into smaller things with a piece of metal, John Carter could occasionally come up with an awesome turn of phrase.



Keith "Man if could talk like that, I would be swimming in chicks" Curtis

Drowning, rather.

Lucius Alexander

House of the Palindromedary

[mangahunterd]

:help: I can't see them no matter what browser... how sad..

[BobGreenwade]

Sadly not. While Martian princesses will sometimes fight, they aren't particularly good at it. In that sense they are more decorative than functional.

But they are smoking hot, or, as John Carter phrased it - "incomparable".In that sense, their decorative value is functional. ;)

[tkdguy]

Warriors of Mars game (http://rdushay.home.mindspring.com/Museum/SF/Mars.html)

[tkdguy]

And oh yeah, back to the topic:

How about using this variant (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1319441#post1319441) of LOTR? :whistle:

[keithcurtis]

Warriors of Mars game (http://rdushay.home.mindspring.com/Museum/SF/Mars.html)
Awesome. That explains a lot.
FWIW, this (http://rdushay.home.mindspring.com/Museum/SF/Covers/JohnCartercover.html) one one of my earliest games, and I think the one I actually first tried to run adventures in.


Keith "Wish I had had the TSR book, way back when" Curtis

[BobGreenwade]

Just wanted to bump this up so it doesn't get lost or forgotten.

It's really fun stuff. :D

[Lucius]

"Sure, it can be bad when you realize that one of your players has been zoning out during crucial moments. But, the real horror sets in when the players who have been paying attention try to explain, and their perception of your gameworld is so different from your intention that you almost don’t recognize it as your own."

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Crossing: Both ways

[BobGreenwade]

Bump. :D

[L. Marcus]

Bmup?

[Susano]

Bmup?

B-dum-dum-dummm!!!

:celebrate

[L. Marcus]

Bah-dum-psh!

[Vondy]

"Sure, it can be bad when you realize that one of your players has been zoning out during crucial moments. But, the real horror sets in when the players who have been paying attention try to explain, and their perception of your gameworld is so different from your intention that you almost don’t recognize it as your own."

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Crossing: Both ways

This turned into a running joke with my Freedom Patrol game. The players turned everything into their own, competing, warped mega-conspiracies. Only one player really knew what was going on (out of character, though his character had a wrong theory), and another would frequently say "we're all wrong." And sometimes the perception gap in terms of events... astounded the mind. On the other hand, most understood the milieu pretty well, except for one player who translated everything into movie references and plots that were almost never situation appropriate. His explanations of the world, rather than the events, often left me (and some of the other players) agape.

[Manic Typist]

Examples?

[BobGreenwade]

It should be noted that the jokes are easily portable between systems. ;) Most of them are about the players, not the system itself.True, quite true.... this could just as easily be an illustration of trying to convert a bunch of D20 players to FH. :D

(Not that I'm actually contributing anything to the conversation in a remotely timely manner, of course. I just wanted to keep this thread up front so I can continue to follow the comic without having to make a bookmark.... ;) )

[Lucius]

Never try to scare a call of cthulhu player. Those guys are insane.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary lost all its SAN by consorting with Humans...