The Most Dangerous Game

[Glen Sprigg]

Okay, I'm starting to see why Hermit is so into polls...I've got another one in mind. But let's twist it around a bit...

Of the two master villains, who is the worst? There are a lot of similarities between them, so who is more dangerous, and why?

Glen

[JohnOSpencer]

I vote Doom! Lex Luthor is not a bad villian, but every bit of power Luthor has, Doom has. In addition, Doom has confront the superheroes directly power, definatly a plus.

John Spencer

[ZootSoot]

Neither of these guys are real dangerous, but Doom is more of a threat at least to Latverians.

[Redmenace]

Doom
Doom is a all about forcing the world into peace. The plot reasons for it are all about his own experiences as an oppressed minority. He's trying to forever remove the forces that destroyed his childhood.

His ultimate goal is a safe utopian control state. I wouldn't want to live in his world but I concede that it would probably be war, poverty and crime free but also artless and stagnant.

Luthor
Luthor's actions are dictated by his own emotions. Superman is too powerful to be in the same world with Luthor so Supes has to go. If Luthor wants something, he takes it or destroys it. Ultimately he takes it all but he's mortal and it can't go with him. He doesn't care what state the world is in after he dies. It doesn't matter, fire off all the Nukes and don't bother me, I'll be taking my cyanide in the bunker.


I agree that Doom is obsessively fixated on besting Reed Richards, at least as much as Lex is about Superman but with Doom there is some world left. Until Galactus gets there.

[Lord Liaden]

This is actually a more difficult question than it appears at first. My intial instinct is to say "Dr. Doom" without hesitation: he has scientific, magical , and tactical genius, considerable resources, great personal power, and has threatened the world and even the universe on numerous occasions. Under the right circumstances, he has proven able to best opponents of cosmic magnitude. Lex Luthor cannot confront his super opponents directly. He never declares his actions openly, preferring to work subtly, behind the scenes. His genius lies wholly in using people and things; he can't also invent them like Doom can.

And yet, Luthor's subtlety is probably his greatest strength. He doesn't leave himself an open target for retaliation. He plans for the long term, and doesn't suffer from the impatience and vanity that's cost Doom so many victories. And now, as President of DC's United States, his resources surpass even Doom's.

On reflection, I still have to give the nod to Dr. Doom, because he is a threat on so many more levels than Lex Luthor is.

Now, Dr. Doom vs. Darkseid; that one I'd be scared to call. (Partly because I wouldn't want to be the one to have to tell the loser!) :eek:

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Glen Sprigg
Okay, I'm starting to see why Hermit is so into polls...

Glen

And the addiction spreads. :)

Well, I'd normally fall back on the mantra of "It depends on who's writing" but as that's a bit lazy of me...

After consideration, I'd give it to Doom. Lex can be wonderfully devious, and is driven. But Doom just seems to have him licked in sheer genius, and I think, will power.

Whenever I read about Lex, I get the feeling that he's only around because Superman is too darn decent and ethical to drop him on a deserted planet 300 lightyears away and KEEP him there. :) While Doom's foes are also good guys, the come in greater variety (that I've seen) and might not feel as bound.
(I'm sure someone will correct me on this) :)

[Acroyear]

More dangerous to superhero? Doom. Doom will kick your butt on so many levels.

To everyone else? Luthor. Luthor doesn't pose in front of your house and challenge you. Luthor sends some untraceable lackey to destroy your credit, kill off your family in an "accident" and gets you fired from your job... ruining your life and getting you to crawl back, begging for help. Then you owe him. Or you find yourself in an accident, yourself... or worse, on trial for the murder of your own friends and family.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Acroyear


To everyone else? Luthor. Luthor doesn't pose in front of your house and challenge you. Luthor sends some untraceable lackey to destroy your credit, kill off your family in an "accident" and gets you fired from your job... ruining your life and getting you to crawl back, begging for help. Then you owe him. Or you find yourself in an accident, yourself... or worse, on trial for the murder of your own friends and family.
Interesting, perhaps another good comparison would be Lex against the Kingpin.

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Now, Dr. Doom vs. Darkseid; that one I'd be scared to call. (Partly because I wouldn't want to be the one to have to tell the loser!) :eek:

Umm.. Darkseid. Would have to go with Darkseid.

[kidsavior]

Gotta go with Dr. Doom on this one. He has everything Luthor has, PLUS magic and entire country that bows to his every whim. Granted Luthor is President of the United States, but there are checks and balances that limit his power. Doom has none of that, he rules his country with an iron fist. Luthor has to present the image of a good guy, Doom just doesn't care. He wants what Doom wants and cares nothing for what the world thinks. So in the long run....

Keep an eye on Luthor, but FEAR Doom!!

[Ghost Archer]

Gotta go with the frontal assault of Doom vs. the stab in the back of Luthor.

[Klytus]

I gotta go with Lex.

Dr. Doom's major weakness is that when he's up to something, he makes sure evryone knows it, giving the heroes enough warning so they can stop him. With Luthor, you can be in the middle of a lex Luthor devised scheme and never even know Luthor is the man behind it. I find sublety and hidden evil to be far more dangerous than in-your-face evil.

[Law Dog]

I'm thinking Ten-Eyed Man because any guy with eyes on his finger tips is a real . . . Hey! Oops, sorry, I thought this was the dorkiest villain thread. My bad.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by kidsavior
Gotta go with Dr. Doom on this one. He has everything Luthor has, PLUS magic and entire country that bows to his every whim. Granted Luthor is President of the United States, but there are checks and balances that limit his power. Doom has none of that, he rules his country with an iron fist. Luthor has to present the image of a good guy, Doom just doesn't care. He wants what Doom wants and cares nothing for what the world thinks. So in the long run....

Keep an eye on Luthor, but FEAR Doom!! Good point. Dr. Doom has been mentioned as a possible successor as Sorceror Supreme, has the Ovoid mind switch trick, is a Gypsy (just like Magneto) which is big juju in Marvel for some reason, and has demonstrated far more consistently a gift for long-range planning.

[Crusader108]

Doom is dangerous, without a doubt, but when he shows up the heroes know they have to be on their guard. Luther, as a "normal" slips underneath most heroes' radar. he just doesn't seem to be a threat and that is why he's more dangerous. He's the kind of villain that will destroy you from the shadows and never give you a oppurtunity to take him down. Legally, he's teflon and he has the financial position to crush a hero through all kinds of "legal" means from slander, identity exposure, etc. Some heroes are immune to physical or energy attacks but psychological/emotional warfare leaves them twisting in the wind.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Crusader108
Doom is dangerous, without a doubt, but when he shows up the heroes know they have to be on their guard. Luther, as a "normal" slips underneath most heroes' radar. he just doesn't seem to be a threat and that is why he's more dangerous. He's the kind of villain that will destroy you from the shadows and never give you a oppurtunity to take him down. Legally, he's teflon and he has the financial position to crush a hero through all kinds of "legal" means from slander, identity exposure, etc. Some heroes are immune to physical or energy attacks but psychological/emotional warfare leaves them twisting in the wind. Don't buy the argument there. Seems to me that many people are suspicious of Luthor and Doom plays mind games too: "Is that Doom or a Doombot?"

[Crusader108]

Don't buy the argument there. Seems to me that many people are suspicious of Luthor and Doom plays mind games too: "Is that Doom or a Doombot?"

I've always seen Doom as much more grandiose. Most of the mindgames tactics, while effective, seem beneath him. He's the type of villain who wants you to know he's behind the scheme (not behind the scenes). He seems much more likely to engage in meglomanical speech-making and posturing instead of slowly and methodically plotting a hero's downfall.
(example: "None shall defeat DOOM")

Speaking about yourself in 3rd person is a dead giveaway.

[Superskrull]

I'm going with Doom. Sadly, I might have stuck with Luthor, but he got 'Byrned' and after that, all I could see was this KIngpin wannabe dumb enough to try to hire Superman with a blank check.

Besides, Doom has so much going for him. He has ominous castles, robots, a time machine and speaks in the thrid person for dramatic effect. He's too darned fun not to get the vote.

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by Crusader108
I've always seen Doom as much more grandiose. Most of the mindgames tactics, while effective, seem beneath him. He's the type of villain who wants you to know he's behind the scheme (not behind the scenes). He seems much more likely to engage in meglomanical speech-making and posturing instead of slowly and methodically plotting a hero's downfall.
(example: "None shall defeat DOOM")

Speaking about yourself in 3rd person is a dead giveaway.

A while back in the Fantasic Four comic the personal journal of Reed Richards was found with infomation inside it showing that he knew what would happen if he and his friends took that historic flight that changed them. It almost caused (yet again) the team to split up as one by one the other members of the fantasic four started to belive that Reed was up to no good. It was finaly Sue that figured it out.. The Journal was a forgery done years ago by Doctor Doom and left hidden with the knowlege that some time down the road it would be found and cause Richards all sorts of problem.

Doc Doom knows how to play mind games.

In the same issue when Sue figured it out.. She right out threatened to kill Doom if he tried that again...She can be scary when she wants to be.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Agent X
Don't buy the argument there. Seems to me that many people are suspicious of Luthor and Doom plays mind games too: "Is that Doom or a Doombot?"

What book do you read that makes Superman and Lois Lane equate to "many people?" :)

There's a reason Luthor isn't just Bubba's new plaything. The "suspicious" part is only along the lines of those people suspicious of Bruce Wayne or Bill Gates... and that's just because they are filthy rich so "they must be bad people." Luthor is nigh untouchable. Luthor doesn't crash an event and have teams of heroes show up to kick his butt... Luthor is invited to the event and is the guest of honor, meanwhile, across town his plot is hatching and actually works.

It's not "mind games" it's far worse. Doom is a pansy when it comes to actual under-handed evil. Doom doesn't have your family systematically disappear until you do what he wants (and then you still don't get your family back). Doom doesn't manipulate things to give your kid a rare disease and then offer you the cure if you work for him... oh, but the disease is permanent and the cure is temporary, so you have to keep on working for him. Doom doesn't even really rate as "evil" compared to Luthor.

[Klytus]

My favorite example of Luthor's evil was a one-shot story done years ago. He stops for lunch in a road-side diner and gets to talking to a waitress. He knows that she;s married, but he makes her an offer: I'll give you a million dollars if you'll be mine for a year, and he gives her 10 minutes to make up her mind. The poor waitress was getting all kinds of input from her co-workers, mostly along the lines of "Don't be stupid! Take the offer!" She called her husband to get HIS input, only Luthor left early before she could answer.

Thing was, that was the point of the whole exercise. Luthor target the lady because she was, by all accounts, an honest, hard working soul. Luthor doesn't like people like that, so he set her up with a moral dilema she would spend the rest of her life wondering whether she would have accepted.

But DC didn't forget about her... this was the lady that took a shot at Luthor when he was running for president.

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Acroyear
What book do you read that makes Superman and Lois Lane equate to "many people?" :)

There's a reason Luthor isn't just Bubba's new plaything. The "suspicious" part is only along the lines of those people suspicious of Bruce Wayne or Bill Gates... and that's just because they are filthy rich so "they must be bad people." Luthor is nigh untouchable. Luthor doesn't crash an event and have teams of heroes show up to kick his butt... Luthor is invited to the event and is the guest of honor, meanwhile, across town his plot is hatching and actually works.



This is just the sort of revisionist bull that hacks me off. DC killed off Luthor in a public manner after he started suffering radiation poisoning from wearing a Kryptonite ring for years. They actually operate on him and take out his brain, placing it in a younger body with a full head of hair.

Enter Luthor II Australian Boogaloo :) , allegedly the son of Luthor by one of his female scientists. Now, Luthor, headcase that he is, continues playing his little mindgames until the lame clone plague story happens. At this point he starts dying and freaks out. He winds up engineering and being blamed for the destruction of Metropolis. Metropolis is of course quickly rebuilt by superheroes, unlike Gotham.

Then, his clone body being all shriveled up ugly ( & bald again), he takes Neron up on his whole soul for power deal and gets a healthy body back ( but stays bald).

Speaking of Gotham, I'm not at all sure how, or why but Luthor was connected to the whole No Man's Land nonsense and somehow cleaned up his public record during this.

After that it's a whirlwind campaign landing him in the White House. Only thing is, Luthor is effectively his mid-20s son now for legal purposes, right & too young to be President.
What did I miss that untangled his backstory? Did some writer invoke 'Hypertime' and insert the S:TAS Luthor in his place?

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by Superskrull
This is just the sort of revisionist bull that hacks me off. DC killed off Luthor in a public manner after he started suffering radiation poisoning from wearing a Kryptonite ring for years. They actually operate on him and take out his brain, placing it in a younger body with a full head of hair.

Enter Luthor II Australian Boogaloo :) , allegedly the son of Luthor by one of his female scientists. Now, Luthor, headcase that he is, continues playing his little mindgames until the lame clone plague story happens. At this point he starts dying and freaks out. He winds up engineering and being blamed for the destruction of Metropolis. Metropolis is of course quickly rebuilt by superheroes, unlike Gotham.

Then, his clone body being all shriveled up ugly ( & bald again), he takes Neron up on his whole soul for power deal and gets a healthy body back ( but stays bald).

Speaking of Gotham, I'm not at all sure how, or why but Luthor was connected to the whole No Man's Land nonsense and somehow cleaned up his public record during this.

After that it's a whirlwind campaign landing him in the White House. Only thing is, Luthor is effectively his mid-20s son now for legal purposes, right & too young to be President.
What did I miss that untangled his backstory? Did some writer invoke 'Hypertime' and insert the S:TAS Luthor in his place?

Well here is where the comparisons become difficult. The DC universe is one where symbols have a solidity and a meaning they lack in our own world, Marvel is abit closer. Thus, yes, Luthor is more evil than Doom, but he is less dangerous simply becauseof that fact. Evil will always be defeatedin comics while a more ambiguous figure like Doom can have his moments of glory.

[Glen Sprigg]

[I]Speaking of Gotham, I'm not at all sure how, or why but Luthor was connected to the whole No Man's Land nonsense and somehow cleaned up his public record during this.

After that it's a whirlwind campaign landing him in the White House. Only thing is, Luthor is effectively his mid-20s son now for legal purposes, right & too young to be President.
What did I miss that untangled his backstory? Did some writer invoke 'Hypertime' and insert the S:TAS Luthor in his place? [\I]

Well here is where the comparisons become difficult. The DC universe is one where symbols have a solidity and a meaning they lack in our own world, Marvel is a bit closer. Thus, yes, Luthor is more evil than Doom, but he is less dangerous simply because of that fact. Evil will always be defeated in comics while a more ambiguous figure like Doom can have his moments of glory.

Actually, there was a trial. It was widely expected that Luthor would be found guilty and sentenced to eternity listening to Backstreet Boys albums, but he avoided that gruesome fate through an interesting defense. His lawyer brought out the perfect witness to prove Lex's innocence: the dying clone.

You see, it was the [I]clone[\I] that did all those terrible things like destroy the city and kill lots of people, not the good and noble Lex Luthor, public philanthropist and employer of millions of hard-wroking citizens.

I don't remember the exact story, to be honest, but it's possible that Lex Luthor II was also revealed to be a clone, and the 'real' Lex had not died in the plane crash, but had gone into hiding to avoid some enemy. Details are hazy at best in my mind. Anyway, I haven't read Superman for some time. In fact, I haven't bought a new comic in quite a while now. But for my money, Lex Luthor is the ultimate bad guy.

And as for 'evil always being defeated in DC,' I submit to you that Lex Luthor becoming the President of the United States would have to rank as a very solid victory for him. Think about it: he now has the authority and influence to give the Justice League legal fits about operating on American soil. This is a man who bought the Daily Planet and shut it down just to keep Lois Lane under his thumb and away from a project of his. He then sold the Planet back in exchange for a one-time 'kill that story' promise from Mrs. Kent.

Moments of triumph? I'd say Lex has had more than just a couple.

Glen

[KawangaKid]

Lex Luthor has my vote.

He sacrificed his daughter (his beloved, ONLY daughter - and yes he really does love her) to Braniac 13 in exchange for power. This, plus the subtlety, plus the fact that only heroes have a legitimate reason to think he's a villain... since he was elected to an important political office: the President of the United States of the DC Universe, making him that much more powerful. ("You're accusing the President of the United States of WHAT?")

He's also got various government agencies (normal, competent, and paranormal) at his disposal... several meta-human black ops groups at his beck and call...

[Mentor]

Originally posted by ZootSoot
Well here is where the comparisons become difficult. The DC universe is one where symbols have a solidity and a meaning they lack in our own world, Marvel is abit closer. Thus, yes, Luthor is more evil than Doom, but he is less dangerous simply becauseof that fact. Evil will always be defeatedin comics while a more ambiguous figure like Doom can have his moments of glory.

Very well put, although sometimes the writers and times do affect the genre. DC fell into the addiction/AIDS/angst for a short period in the late 70s earky 80s, but on the whole I think you defined the differences well

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Glen Sprigg
Actually, there was a trial. It was widely expected that Luthor would be found guilty and sentenced to eternity listening to Backstreet Boys albums, but he avoided that gruesome fate through an interesting defense. His lawyer brought out the perfect witness to prove Lex's innocence: the dying clone.

You see, it was the [I]clone[\I] that did all those terrible things like destroy the city and kill lots of people, not the good and noble Lex Luthor, public philanthropist and employer of millions of hard-wroking citizens.

I don't remember the exact story, to be honest, but it's possible that Lex Luthor II was also revealed to be a clone, and the 'real' Lex had not died in the plane crash, but had gone into hiding to avoid some enemy. Details are hazy at best in my mind. Anyway, I haven't read Superman for some time. In fact, I haven't bought a new comic in quite a while now. But for my money, Lex Luthor is the ultimate bad guy.

And as for 'evil always being defeated in DC,' I submit to you that Lex Luthor becoming the President of the United States would have to rank as a very solid victory for him. Think about it: he now has the authority and influence to give the Justice League legal fits about operating on American soil. This is a man who bought the Daily Planet and shut it down just to keep Lois Lane under his thumb and away from a project of his. He then sold the Planet back in exchange for a one-time 'kill that story' promise from Mrs. Kent.

Moments of triumph? I'd say Lex has had more than just a couple.

Glen

Hmm. Sounds familiar now that you mention it. I must have supressed that story like I did the Supergirl movie.
"That never happened. I have no idea what you're talking about."

He's a tricky devil all right. I still vote Doom, though.

[death tribble]

Doom because he believes he is doing it for the benefit of mankind. Luthor is doing it for the money.
And besides Doom has been a head of state longer than Luthor

[SuperPheemy]

My vote goes to Doom for one, critical reason. All things being equal, ruthlessness, intelligence, political power, money, Doom still has the option of exercising his armor and taking superhero matters into his own hands.

Luthor tried that at one point, but his armor turned out so ridiculous-looking that he was nearly regulated to Ambush Bug cameo appearances.

However, where Doom is at his most dangerous is when he feels something is important enough to warrant using Sorcery.

Besides, Doom isn't saddled with the necessity of keeping an "honest" face to the public. He's the Iron Monarch of Latveria. He wears a broomhandle Mauser to dispatch lackeys who fail him yet remain unworthy of his armor's systems.

[Champsguy]

Gonna have to go with Doom.

Saying that Luthor being devious enough to murder your family and ruin your life makes him more dangerous than Doom is like saying that a street punk who mugs you is more dangerous than Galactus.

Doom doesn't bother to ruin some poor waitress' life. Doom doesn't care. Luthor wastes a lot of his power on pettiness. Sadly, despite all his backstabbing schemes, old Lex is still only second-best when it comes to truly petty evil.

He's still light-years behind Charles Montgomery Burns. Who else would spend their afternoon actually taking candy from a baby? No one but Burns. Who else would ditch their college sweetheart in favor of her younger daughter? Mr. Burns, and probably Johnny Carson.

While most people in the DC Universe don't know the extent of Lex's evil, he's still not a trusted individual. Remember, Mr. Burns was just inches from being elected Governor of whatever state Springfield is in, and everyone knows he's crooked. DC people have the same attitude towards Luthor.

Doom, on the other hand, doesn't give a flying crap in a hat about normals. Joe Bob the carpenter can bash Doom publically all he wants (as long as he don't live in Latveria), and Doom will take no notice. Just like I really don't care if the local jr high kids think I don't wear cool clothes, Doom doesn't care about lessers.

Doom can also plot and plan with the best of them. He knows when to keep his mouth closed. Oh sure, he's likely to mouth off and tell you his brilliant plan, but that's after he's relatively certain that it's gonna work. He was perfectly willing to keep his yap shut when he and Kang went sneaking through the dimensions to try and nab a couple of Cosmic Cubes from the Magus during the Infinity War (like not telling Kang that he'd grown tired of his orders until after he'd blown a big hole in him). Doom's penchant for grandiosity (Is that a real word? I hope so, cause I like it) is only there when it suits him, just like his honor.