bestiary for other genres

[brian463]

I would like to see monster book for genres like star hero,horror hero and others. I would like to know what do you all thik about it maybe even MR.long will give his take on it.

[BobGreenwade]

I've suggested The Galactic Bestiary and even asked to write it, but Steve said it's a no-go. The Star Hero sourcebooks just aren't selling that well (a large part of why they're being produced so slowly and sporadically despite being very well-done).

OTOH a horror bestiary might work out, once Horror Hero finally hits the press.

[Susano]

I think the Asian Bestiaries are crammed with Horror Hero goodness. Also, I had a series of articles that appeared in Digital Hero that were specifically dedicated to various classic monsters types -- vampires, ghosts, werewolves, and so on.

[Teflon Billy]

I would like to see another Bestiary.

Particularly if it focused on non-anthropomorphic terrors. I'd like to see a monster book that was less a book of character races and more a book of beasts.

TB

[Susano]

I would like to see another Bestiary.

Particularly if it focused on non-anthropomorphic terrors. I'd like to see a monster book that was less a book of character races and more a book of beasts.

Hmm... what kind of beasts?

[yamamura]

I've suggested The Galactic Bestiary and even asked to write it, but Steve said it's a no-go. The Star Hero sourcebooks just aren't selling that well (a large part of why they're being produced so slowly and sporadically despite being very well-done).

OTOH a horror bestiary might work out, once Horror Hero finally hits the press.

Wow a Galactic Bestiary would be a lot of work. Especially given that you will have to come up with almost everything yourself. That is when you are not rubbing off the serial numbers and altering sci-fi monsters...

[Teflon Billy]

Hmm... what kind of beasts?
My personal choice at the moment would be Fantasy with a slant towards Pulpish stuff.

I'd like to see 60% fantasy beasts drawn from more fictional sources over historical, file off the serial numbers if need be. With the rest filling in a more modern fantasy niche (paranormals, lovecraftian stuff, more generic undead verses unique types)

TB

[Susano]

My personal choice at the moment would be Fantasy with a slant towards Pulpish stuff.

I'd like to see 60% fantasy beasts drawn from more fictional sources over historical, file off the serial numbers if need be. With the rest filling in a more modern fantasy niche (paranormals, lovecraftian stuff, more generic undead verses unique types)

Well... I have this:

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionscreatures/creatures.html#myth

It might help.

[Teflon Billy]

Well... I have this:

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionscreatures/creatures.html#myth

It might help.I know, you've linked to it before.

It isn't enough ;)

I also want books, not electrons.

TB

[Susano]

I know, you've linked to it before.

It isn't enough ;)

I also want books, not electrons.

Best I can do.

I'd love to work on such a project, but... :straight:

[BobGreenwade]

Wow a Galactic Bestiary would be a lot of work. Especially given that you will have to come up with almost everything yourself. That is when you are not rubbing off the serial numbers and altering sci-fi monsters... There's that, but I'm pretty sure I'd be up to the job myself. There are a lot of not only explicit mentions but hints and suggestions in the existing SH supplements -- enough, I'd warrant, to fill at least a third of the needed text. The rest can be adaptations of other monsters, "serial number" creatures, and similar stuff.

[Susano]

There's that, but I'm pretty sure I'd be up to the job myself. There are a lot of not only explicit mentions but hints and suggestions in the existing SH supplements -- enough, I'd warrant, to fill at least a third of the needed text. The rest can be adaptations of other monsters, "serial number" creatures, and similar stuff.

There's also some required stuff (IMO). The thing(s) that live in warp space. The space-going beast big enough to eat space ships. The gas giant life that's a huge flying jellyfish. The tiny parasites. The silicon life. And so on.

[Sketchpad]

Why not just start making a horde of critters for various genres in a thread? Or maybe see if a 3rd party publisher wouldn't make one?

[ghost-angel]

Why not just start making a horde of critters for various genres in a thread? Or maybe see if a 3rd party publisher wouldn't make one?

The third party idea isn't bad. I know Hero does licensed products. I'm sure if someone enterprising were to create any of these books DOJ would at least consider a license.

[Steve Long]

I don't foresee us doing genre bestiaries such as are being described here, but we'd certainly be willing to consider granting a license to produce one to a talented, creative, professional, and responsible company/individual. :)

[Susano]

I don't foresee us doing genre bestiaries such as are being described here, but we'd certainly be willing to consider granting a license to produce one to a talented, creative, professional, and responsible company/individual. :)

If anyone wants to take Steve up on this, I'm in.

[Eosin]

Interesting ideas. I have a metric ton on my plate but imagine that doing something like Teflon Billy was describing might be loads of fun. Plus it would give me an excuse to work with someone else (hint). 3P is pretty big on art which is why these books scare me [Click here to see the preview of The Last Dominion printed version to see exactly what I mean (http://www.pencil-pushers.net/Downloads/Print%20Preview.pdf)] (warning this file is 5 mgs). :drink:

If the project was set in The Last Dominion and included -


Beasts - I am thinking things along the lines of minor Lovecraftian horrors or the Rancor from Star Wars as far as what I mean by beasts.
Undead - these would be non-standard type of undead such as Myrrdraal from Jordan or the Others from Martin.
Spirits - somewhat in the LotR theme of powerful entities trapped in physical form. Demons, water spirits, lady of the Lake types of thing.


- would this be what you are looking for?

No promises, just some gentle exploration.

[BobGreenwade]

If anyone wants to take Steve up on this, I'm in.Ditto.

[Sketchpad]

If a company needs a doodler, I can see what I can do ;)

[gojira]

This is pretty cool, I might want to get in on this.

What's a book cost to produce, and can anyone chip in? I'd be willing to put in some % of the costs...

[Eosin]

This is pretty cool, I might want to get in on this.

What's a book cost to produce, and can anyone chip in? I'd be willing to put in some % of the costs...

Depends on what you want to produce. As an example, covers range from $100 to $3,000 USD. Interior art is nearly as variable and monster books require lots of art (1/4 page of art per 2-3 book pages).

The physical print scales with the "mass" in mass quanity... I'd assume the cost for a small run to be around $4 - $10 USD per book depending on size and assuming a print run of 1,000+ .... So, running PDF to POD is the safest bet but that still doesn't cover art, writing, editing, and layout.

[gojira]

Assume 125 quarter "good" page drawings, and let's say 10 two page illustrations for major sections. Let's say those 10 two page illustrations and 20 more full pages (10 pages, front and back) of color print.

Care to take a rough guess at the cost of that? Is asking the artist to take a % of the book sales out of the question?

It's sounding like roughly 5k - 10k to make the masters/PDF, and another 5k - 10k to have it printed in dead tree version.

I'd call that non-trival money, but not out of the question.

If we add stats for D20 for each critter (in addition to the HERO write-up), does that increase the sale of the book significantly?

[Eosin]

Somewhere in the ballpark of 8-12K USD for "good art," great art is harder to quantify in $$$ but could easily double that amount (or more). Mehhh art might go for as little as 3K USD. Royalties don't fly well in the RPG market with established freelancers (read that as "good"). There is too little chance to recoop thier investment. The lower end is more likely if you contract with a single artist and get a bulk discount.

PS - I read this as 125 illustrations sized as 1/4 of a page.

PPS - to break even on a book of this scope you would need to sell consideribly above the average print run for a non - WOTC, Malhavok, or WW book. They are the only ones (some Mongoose titles sell in this range as well) who nail 10,000+ print runs.

PPPS - I am by no means an authority with dozens of years experience to draw from. I have some knowledge but it really isn't much to brag about. There might be cheaper ways by doing something like hiring an art director or similar.

[zornwil]

My personal choice at the moment would be Fantasy with a slant towards Pulpish stuff.

I'd like to see 60% fantasy beasts drawn from more fictional sources over historical, file off the serial numbers if need be. With the rest filling in a more modern fantasy niche (paranormals, lovecraftian stuff, more generic undead verses unique types)

TB
I agree, I'd like to see that as well.

[gojira]

PS - I read this as 125 illustrations sized as 1/4 of a page.

Yes, that's what I meant.


PPPS - I am by no means an authority with dozens of years experience to draw from. I have some knowledge but it really isn't much to brag about. There might be cheaper ways by doing something like hiring an art director or similar.

No worries, your expertise far exceeds mine. One to three artists, depending on their time and inclination, sounds like the way to go. I certainly couldn't see trying to find one artist for each drawing! :)

[Susano]

No worries, your expertise far exceeds mine. One to three artists, depending on their time and inclination, sounds like the way to go. I certainly couldn't see trying to find one artist for each drawing! :)

I could try doing some art.... but I don't have a scanner.

[gojira]

Hmm, as long as it's public domain, that would be ok! :D

Here's my contribution:

[Teflon Billy]

I could try doing some art.... but I don't have a scanner.From Newegg, $49.99 w/free shipping:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16838111121

TB

[Sketchpad]

Personally, I think a big book of beasties would be nice ... but definitely come out with on for each genre. My one suggestion is to draw heavily from the imaginaton, as well as filed-off fictional inspirations. I can't tell you how many times I've used the Monster Manuals in my games, even the non-fantasy ones. An interesting idea would be to take a clue from the 2nd ed Monster Manual and produce them as PDFs that are layed out for use in a binder. I just wish I had time to devote to a PDF company, 'cause I would've jumped on this months ago. As it is, I'm still considering working my campaign world for Champions up as a PDF book treatment :)

[ghost-angel]

All this support and the ABs did poorly?

......

I wonder what happened here. Was there some kind of issue where distributors didn't order very many and LGSs either didn't order or get any themselves or kept telling buyers that they were out of stock (or even out of print!).

I always figured books of monsters always did well. I remember buying the old AD&D Monstrous Compendiums like they were going out of style. I almost own all of them.

[Teflon Billy]

All this support and the ABs did poorly?

......

I wonder what happened here. Was there some kind of issue where distributors didn't order very many and LGSs either didn't order or get any themselves or kept telling buyers that they were out of stock (or even out of print!).

I always figured books of monsters always did well. I remember buying the old AD&D Monstrous Compendiums like they were going out of style. I almost own all of them.I still think that half the problem is all things Asian are not popular, there just happens to be a very vocal and fanatical segment of the gaming population that is into it.

Like I said in another thread on this subject, one very big generic Bestiary would have been a better choice.

TB

[ghost-angel]

possibly. Darren's chat tonight brought up an interesting issue that small companies are having with distributors though.

Distro's aren't picking up the quantity, unless your Hasbro they just really don't care about you.

[Teflon Billy]

possibly. Darren's chat tonight brought up an interesting issue that small companies are having with distributors though.

Distro's aren't picking up the quantity, unless your Hasbro they just really don't care about you.The distributor issue is really making me think that if there was any way to bypass them in any way possible would be an advantage.

Between their outright lying about DoJ's status (Oh, they don't publish books anymore, they just make PDFs) to their just not doing their jobs makes me think that small gaming companies will just have to go direct in all things and ignore the Distributors.

TB

[zornwil]

We should chin up - at some point one of these little direct distributor things will catch fire and teach the distributors a major lesson - possibly even a "we don't really need you" lesson. It could happen. I admit, it might not be likely, or at least not predictable I should say, but at some point, even if not our field, it will happen, and things will change for our field as well.

[ghost-angel]

I believe at one point Darren said that Diamon didn't even order copies of Thrilling Places (could be wrong).

Personally, I've switched completely to direct order from Hero Games.

I've seen a number of comments from board members trying to get a book from their LGS that they can't get it because it's "out of stock" or such. Which is unfair to the gamer in the end run who eventually gives up.

It's one thing to want to support your LGS - but as long as they play the distributor game too (i.e. not turning to alternate sources themselves when the distributor is being a git) then my opinion is they also deserve to go the way of the dodo.

One has to wonder at this point if there's any plausability to setting up a Small Press Distribution just to get the books like Hero Games more quickly available to the market.

[Teflon Billy]

I believe at one point Darren said that Diamon didn't even order copies of Thrilling Places (could be wrong).

Personally, I've switched completely to direct order from Hero Games.

I've seen a number of comments from board members trying to get a book from their LGS that they can't get it because it's "out of stock" or such. Which is unfair to the gamer in the end run who eventually gives up.

It's one thing to want to support your LGS - but as long as they play the distributor game too (i.e. not turning to alternate sources themselves when the distributor is being a git) then my opinion is they also deserve to go the way of the dodo.

One has to wonder at this point if there's any plausability to setting up a Small Press Distribution just to get the books like Hero Games more quickly available to the market.I gave up going through brick and morter stores a while ago.

Since I left Monterey and no longer have the friendly guys over at Game Habitat to pruchase from it's been frpgames.com, warehouse23.com, and (when DoJ let us know their preference for direct purchase from them) the Hero Online Store.

TB

[Super Squirrel]

My FLGS only carries the core book from time to time and even then, I rarely see it in. I buy directly from Hero Games for a reason.

[ghost-angel]

Personally, I think what we're seeing is that rough tranistional period where the models are moving. Several of us have stopped using the LGS (either because they lack the F, or because they won't carry what we want) and gone directly to buying from Hero or another online vendor.

We're probably still in the minority of buyers, but I see that changing over time as people simply become fed up with waiting 2-3 months for a book to show up in the LGS if at all these days.

[Steve Long]

All this support and the ABs did poorly?

......

I wonder what happened here. Was there some kind of issue where distributors didn't order very many and LGSs either didn't order or get any themselves or kept telling buyers that they were out of stock (or even out of print!).

I always figured books of monsters always did well. I remember buying the old AD&D Monstrous Compendiums like they were going out of style. I almost own all of them.


Leaving aside all the other potential issues that have been raised in this thread, I should point out that "all this support" isn't necessarily any significant support at all. A few people posting on a thread on a company's message board doesn't have any statistical validity -- in fact, one could argue that it's statistically a very poor thing to rely on. The fans who come here regularly and read/post to threads tend to be among the most attentive, informed, and supportive fans -- but they're not necessarily representative of the fan community as a whole in any of those respects. And I think that's true for any RPG company, not just Hero.

[ghost-angel]

True.

I think most of us who've posted so far as in the "they made it, I bought it." category. Or close to it.

[bigdamnhero]

If we add stats for D20 for each critter (in addition to the HERO write-up), does that increase the sale of the book significantly?
In theory, perhaps. In practice, I suspect not. For one thing, it would have to be something not available in the 5 bazzilion metric tons of d20 stuff already out there. Two: I'm not sure how many d20 junkies would even look at a Hero bestiary long enough to notice that it also has d20 stats.


Personally, I think what we're seeing is that rough tranistional period where the models are moving. Several of us have stopped using the LGS (either because they lack the F, or because they won't carry what we want) and gone directly to buying from Hero or another online vendor.

We're probably still in the minority of buyers, but I see that changing over time as people simply become fed up with waiting 2-3 months for a book to show up in the LGS if at all these days.
I agree the distibuter model is broken. But I'm not sure the death of brick & mortar stores could in any way be seen as a good thing, either for DOJ in particular or RPGs in general. Yes, those of us already "in" can get our fix direct from the publishers. But how do new players get introduced to the hobby? How do established players learn about new (or new-to-them) systems and books? You've basically limited the hobby to the x% of players who hang out on online gaming forums; there goes 75% of the gamers I know.

I choose the alternate tactic: pester my FLGS until they get their **** together and order some Hero books, if only to shut me up. :)

[ghost-angel]

Well, on my part there's a certain bias in that I dislike the B&M model completely. An ineffecient waste of resources.

And most RPGs spread the way most things spread: word of mouth. I know very few people who walked randomly into a store to get a new hobby of any kind.

[bigdamnhero]

Well, on my part there's a certain bias in that I dislike the B&M model completely. An ineffecient waste of resources.
For you, maybe. But many (most?) people want to see & handle something new before they lay their money down. I remember some study awhile back that found an ungodly percentage of people who made major purchases through catalogs had first gone into a B&M store to check the product out in person. The study didn't address e-purchases (this was a few years ago), but I suspect the same would hold true. Online shopping is great for people who already know what they want; but I don't think it tends to generate a lot of "browsing" sales.


And most RPGs spread the way most things spread: word of mouth. I know very few people who walked randomly into a store to get a new hobby of any kind.
Fair point: probably not a lot of people walk into game stores that aren't already gamers. But I've known a few wargamers who got into RPGs because they saw a game being played at the FLGS and it looked fun; ditto for card gamers, etc. And I've certainly bought a lot of game books over the years (not to mention minis!) because I saw them on the shelf, flipped through them, and liked what I saw. How many of those would I still have picked up if all I'd seen was a blurb somewhere? Half?

For example, I didn't get 5Ed Dark Champions when it came out because it sounded like it was vigilante crimefighters (ie 4Ed Dark Champs), which is not a genre that interests me. But if my FLGS had carried a copy, I would've certainly picked it up to leaf through it, seen what's inside, and snatched it up years ago. And I'm a Hero loyalist!

Plus, online forums notwithstanding, the FLGS is still the first place most gamers go to find other gamers.

Get rid of B&M stores, and the winners are the companies that are big enough to get their stuff sold in Waldenbooks & Borders: ie - WOTC & WW.

[ghost-angel]

Get rid of B&M stores, and the winners are the companies that are big enough to get their stuff sold in Waldenbooks & Borders: ie - WOTC & WW.

Technically . . . I'd like to kill them first since they take up more space. But as I said - I'm biased, and certainly far from normal.

And I'm currently on a one man mission to provide more than simple blurbs for Hero Books, in the form of longer reviews with detailed info. In the hopes that will help online shopping (or at least over all sales).

I mean, I know what you're saying. I just think we have a flawing model of society. But I crazy.

[bigdamnhero]

Technically . . . I'd like to kill them first since they take up more space. But as I said - I'm biased, and certainly far from normal.

And I'm currently on a one man mission to provide more than simple blurbs for Hero Books, in the form of longer reviews with detailed info. In the hopes that will help online shopping (or at least over all sales).

I mean, I know what you're saying. I just think we have a flawing model of society. But I crazy.
I didn't say it was perfect, but it's the only society we got. ;) And yeah, I don't mean to diminish the importance of online sales. My problem, personally, is that reading reviews of a game/movie/book or anything else means very little to me unless I know the reviewer. I don't necessarily have to always agree with the reviewer; I just need to know where he's coming from. So the fact that "FanBoy1701" loves a book probably isn't enough to make me buy it. It might be enough to make me seek the book out at my FLGS and leaf through it... But I'm just as crazy as you, just in a different direction.

[Mulgar]

What other geres NEED a bestiary? Champions is usually NPC opponents and HERO has that covered with a host of different books. Fantasy Hero has MMM and the fantasy section of the 5ed Bestiary. Now it has a bunch of NPC's with KNN. As many others have said the AB's will fill many a hole there.

Now what is left? Star Hero? How well did that sell? What is the demand for laying down $10-15K to create that? Now just say that you did create a Bestiary for Star Hero, you would need to sell quite a few to recuop that outlay.

Is there any thing else? Hmmm.... Dark Champions and Pulp Hero would be covered by some on the same issues as Champions and Fantasy Hero. Most of your opponents will be NPC's, robots, or animals. Most of these are covered in any number of different books.

It there any thing else that is viable? Well looking at the number of threads in the discussions boards as a guide to popularity, Champions (~8000) is by far the most popular, second is Fantasy Hero (~2500), Third is Star Hero (~1500) and Dark Champions and Pulp Hero tie for fourth (~500 each). With HERO saying that Star Hero sales do not warrent a bestiary I cannot see how any other genre with less that one third the interest could either.

Don't mean to burst anyones bubbles but the only genre that might be successful would be a Universal Bestiary to cover Star Hero. In addition I believe that the artwork would have to be more limited than the numbers listed here to reduce costs. In addition the amount of interior color should be limited as well.

Not a publisher, but I don't have "idiot" tattoed across my forehead either*.

*at least not in any ink color I can see. Hmmm, maybe I better check under UV light.

[ghost-angel]

What other geres [COLOR=Red]NEED [COLOR=Black]a bestiary? Champions is usually NPC opponents and HERO has that covered with a host of different books. Fantasy Hero has MMM and the fantasy section of the 5ed Bestiary. Now it has a bunch of NPC's with KNN. As many others have said the AB's will fill many a hole there.

Ignored the sales points (which are valid. Interest by genre going by the Discussion Boards is folly, just as judging popularity by the same it.

Other genre's that could conceivable have a bestiary suited to it: Star Hero, Horror Hero, Weird Western Hero are all possibilities.

[Mulgar]

Ignored the sales points (which are valid. Interest by genre going by the Discussion Boards is folly, just as judging popularity by the same it.

Other genre's that could conceivable have a bestiary suited to it: Star Hero, Horror Hero, Weird Western Hero are all possibilities.

I don't know if I would use the word "folly", I will admit it is somewhat inaccurate.

There will be some portion of all Hero games interested enought to log on and dicuss the game online in the forums. This portion should be somewhat consistant from genre to genre. Without some information to the contrary I assumed the percentage of people willing to post to be constant across all genres. Next I did not use the number of posts but the number of threads. This will take into account the diversity of both questions and the number of people asking the questions. Therefore some conclusions can be drawn abount interest and potential sales for new bestiarys.

Secondly, it doesn't take much time to make a Horror Hero or Weird Western Hero characters from current bestiarys. Take one big bad black dog, add a little telephathy or maybe low level EB with appropriate SFX.

[ghost-angel]

The number of ANYTHING from the boards is not a good gauge for sales, in any way.

[Teflon Billy]

The number of ANYTHING from the boards is not a good gauge for sales, in any way.Yup, pretty much.

I have become convinced from being here for now a few years, that those of us that frequent the boards (and post) are almost in no way reflective of the larger Hero customer base.

It can be taken as a good thing to a point, that the wider Hero buying audience is larger than us on these boards, but it does lend to a distorted view of what the customer base really wants if you don't realize that fact.

Another thing that I've noticed, there seems to be quite a few more people on the boards who are currently economically not part of the customer base (i.e. talking but not buying)

TB

[Mulgar]

Yup, pretty much.

I have become convinced from being here for now a few years, that those of us that frequent the boards (and post) are almost in no way reflective of the larger Hero customer base.

It can be taken as a good thing to a point, that the wider Hero buying audience is larger than us on these boards, but it does lend to a distorted view of what the customer base really wants if you don't realize that fact.

Another thing that I've noticed, there seems to be quite a few more people on the boards who are currently economically part of the customer base (i.e. talking but not buying)

TB

Actually I think the people that have been here longer have already spent their money on a lot of the books that are out there. This means that you would be interested in new stuff.

Those of us who are either new to Champions or are getting back into it after a long absence have a large choice of books still to buy.

Guess that would make ya'll a little skewed from the wider Hero buying audience:D

[ghost-angel]

That and I do believe that a large number of the more vocal members of the boards fall under the "buy it all" category. That's the only reason I buy anything from the Champions line to be honest. This year was a happy year for me Hero book wise :)

[Mulgar]

That and I do believe that a large number of the more vocal members of the boards fall under the "buy it all" category. That's the only reason I buy anything from the Champions line to be honest. This year was a happy year for me Hero book wise :)

Well, at last we agree. This year was a happy year for me as well. I picked up 5ER and some other stuff. Now I gotta get my list of stuff for my wife to buy me for christmas.

[bigdamnhero]

Not a publisher, but I don't have "idiot" tattoed across my forehead either*.

*at least not in any ink color I can see. Hmmm, maybe I better check under UV light.
While you're at it, don't forget to check your back for "Kick Me" signs. Seems I find a new one there at least once a week. ;)

[ghost-angel]

While you're at it, don't forget to check your back for "Kick Me" signs. Seems I find a new one there at least once a week. ;)

Or at least after gaming sessions :eg:

[Sketchpad]

What other geres NEED a bestiary?

Well, let's see:
Champions: Sure, they use some villains mainly, but there are other things that could be done with a "Champions Bestiary". For example, a book of mooks and essential NPCs that don't have any names, but rather a title.
Fantasy Hero: There are never enough critters for a fantasy game.
Star Hero: Perhaps an alien species guide could be folded into a genre bestiary here. Not only give a critter, but their racial package where applicable.
Pulp Hero: Okay, sure .. normal animals is all good. But, like Champions, how about more generic villains and odd creatures?
Dark Champions: A bestiary for DC could be limitless ... folding into Pulp Hero, Horror Hero and even Champions. Again a roster of no-name-thugs could be plugged in here.
Post-Apocalyptic: Take all the above, mix under medium frappe and pour, adding in mutations and setting specific critters where needed.
Western Hero: Need a cow-rustler? Here's some generic stats. Need a Jackalope? Got those too.
Horror Hero: Besides Fantasy, this is the genre that most screams for a bestiary. Take your pick, there's many monsters that could be statted here.
Psi-Hero: Specific Psi critters and goons.
There are tons more as well ... every genre has a need for generic critters/NPCs and makes the GMs job just that much simplier.

[bigdamnhero]

Champions: Sure, they use some villains mainly, but there are other things that could be done with a "Champions Bestiary". For example, a book of mooks and essential NPCs that don't have any names, but rather a title.
Well, since we've already got a number of NPC books, I'd rather see a book of Champions Beasts. Animals, quasi-intelligent monsters, superpowered dogs, and so forth, while not as common as costumed supervillains, are certainly not unknown to the genre. If I were even 1/2 awake this morning, I'm sure I'd be able to come up with a number of examples; but as it is, the only thing I can come up with is the Mega-Mice from Top 10. :)

[ghost-angel]

Well, since we've already got a number of NPC books, I'd rather see a book of Champions Beasts. Animals, quasi-intelligent monsters, superpowered dogs, and so forth, while not as common as costumed supervillains, are certainly not unknown to the genre. If I were even 1/2 awake this morning, I'm sure I'd be able to come up with a number of examples; but as it is, the only thing I can come up with is the Mega-Mice from Top 10. :)

NIMH suddenly popped into my brain.

[Sketchpad]

Well, since we've already got a number of NPC books, I'd rather see a book of Champions Beasts. Animals, quasi-intelligent monsters, superpowered dogs, and so forth, while not as common as costumed supervillains, are certainly not unknown to the genre. If I were even 1/2 awake this morning, I'm sure I'd be able to come up with a number of examples; but as it is, the only thing I can come up with is the Mega-Mice from Top 10. :)

Too true :) Agreed

[BobGreenwade]

Star Hero: Perhaps an alien species guide could be folded into a genre bestiary here. Not only give a critter, but their racial package where applicable.What I had in mind wouldn't include sentient aliens in the MMM mold; rather, just "lower life-forms" that could be used as pets, beasts of burden, guard beasts, Shollaron hosts, wildlife, and similar stuff.

OTOH I've also though about seeing if I could talk Steve into letting me collect a bunch of my various Star Hero articles in DH into a book on alien powers (probably also including the psionic powers and alien species from the Leftover Hero in DH8).

[Teflon Billy]

What I had in mind wouldn't include sentient aliens in the MMM mold; rather, just "lower life-forms" that could be used as pets, beasts of burden, guard beasts, Shollaron hosts, wildlife, and similar stuff.

OTOH I've also though about seeing if I could talk Steve into letting me collect a bunch of my various Star Hero articles in DH into a book on alien powers (probably also including the psionic powers and alien species from the Leftover Hero in DH8).This is exactly the type of stuff I would love to see in a Bestiary.

I really don't want to get another monster book that ends up being a big book of character races. I consider those two seperate and distinct types of books.

I like both, but at the moment I think their is an over abundance of races and a dearth of monsters/mundane creatures to choose from.

TB